What are some of your design "rules"..?

[Doug Rasmussen]

My interest is far more in design than processes. I'm curious if others have some guiding principles or rules for their designs. Some also let the wood determine the object design. I read a piece by David Ellsworth saying he puts a chunk of wood in the lathe and let's the wood determine the design (not sure I believe that).

Here are three that come to mind for me. Please add some of yours.

1) Form follows function. If you want to make a bowl or container design it around its function and what it's meant to hold.

2) Use the rule of thirds where applicable. Like a box with a lid make the parting line 1/3 down from the top.

3) Make a pleasant form in design that stands by itself as attractive. Don't rely on wood grain or embellishments.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

The golden ratio look it up and study it!

 

[Alan Weinberg]

use the calipers more often than I do . . . dammit, through the bottom again today.

 

[Ric Williams]

The inside should (normally) be smaller than the outside.

 

[Dean Center]

Having a diminutive sense of artistic style and having great difficulty 'seeing' how the piece looks while it's still on the lathe, I find "Rules" of design to be very helpful. With greater experience, I'm finding my artistic eye improving, but it's still more an after-the-fact judgment, rather than the ability to visualize ahead of time. As a result, this question is very important to me. Suggestions above are good. Here are a few more.

• Make continuous curves, avoiding flat spots. Even on the sides of boxes, a subtle curve or slant usually works better than straight and perpendicular
• Base or foot of a bowl should be <40% of diameter
• Generally, thickness of a utility piece should be proportional to the diameter
• Consistent wall thickness is a good starting point, though variations may produce a more useful piece or a piece that feels best in the hand
• Golden ratio works sometimes, rule of thirds works sometimes

 

[Sam Fleisher]

If you made it and you like the way it looks then you succeeded. Don't worry about what someone else thinks. At the end of the day who do you really have to please?

Mother nature will make more trees. Can't please all the people all the time or even some of the people anytime. Enough platitudes?

*edit*
If you can't hide it.. accentuate it!

 

[odie]

Rules I make for myself could be, but are not necessarily applicable to anyone else.

Since I turn the foot while being held by Oneway Jumbo, or Mega Jumbo jaws, the rim must be in a shape that can be securely held by those jaws. This actually leaves me a great deal of creativity, but within some limitations.

Also, since I am a dedicated faceplate turner for the second turn, waste blocks must be either 3 3/8", or 5 3/8" octagon fir and pine cut from standard 2x4 and 2x6 premium stud lumber. This size easily adapts to my dedicated screw center faceplates that are 3", and 4 3/4" respectively.

-o-

 

[Stephen Blalock]

Golden Rectangle​

 

[Karl Best]

An excellent resource is Richard Raffan's book The Art of Turned Bowls, chapter 3 on Form.

 

[robo hippy]

I just adjust the form till I like it. I have turned some that I thought were all wrong, and sure enough, some one would come into the booth and see it and think it was the most beautiful thing in the world. I can kind of apply the form to hollow forms too, but I don't do many of those. At one presentation, we had 2 turners commenting on form. One did it by eyeball, the other by measuring to that golden mean. Both were measured for the golden mean, and both were spot on for proportions. Both were spot on. One had a form that he didn't like, and it was off of that mean.

robo hippy

 

[Travis Tatomir]

Karl, I agree 100%. I feel like reading "The Art of Turned Bowls" has really enhanced my work more than anything else I've done. It's simply a fantastic book that every turner should peruse.

As far as letting the wood determine the object design, I think it's a very real and important concept. First of all, the dimensions of the wood you are working with already "determine" a large part of the object's design. I think if considerations are not made with the best use of the working material in mind, it follows that you will not be able to best utilize the material and its particular characteristics. Grain direction, spalting, figure, bark inclusions, everything about the piece of wood can be included, omitted, or purposefully displayed in a way that the material and design are harmonious together and complimentary. If no such consideration is made, I feel like the turner will inevitably lose out on a significant aspect of the entire potential of designing an object.

That isn't to say the turner's agency is removed and the piece of wood has already decided for the turner what it will be, it's just that the variant nature of the material we use lends itself to characteristics that will inevitably be displayed better if one actively tries to work with them rather than disregarding them. I see it as another skill to hone, reading the material and approaching the wood as somewhat of a "partner" in the design of the finished piece, a skill that I have just now truly began to attempt to utilize after reading the aforementioned book.

 

[Marc Banka]

I’ll speak about bowls because that’s what I know.
The dimensions of the bowl are determined by the dimensions of the blank, which is strongly influenced by the source log and how it’s cut, which is dependent on the ideas in my head as I cut into it.
Once on the lathe, after giving thought to which side is up;
The rim is usually the largest part, usually at the top of the bowl.
The smallest part is at the bottom, and is 1/3 of the largest diameter
Rim to rim, one curve. That curve must not crash into the table, needs to be, at its lowest point, a bit off the surface.
For the most part, the wall thickness should be consistent, including at the bottom, which means the interior will also be one single curve from rim to rim. Vary that if you have an artistic reason.
The weight if the bowl should be in the range of what someone might expect. Super light isn’t always great, either. You know it when you feel it.
Keep all elements crisp and sharp when cutting. Even if you want a rounded rim, don’t do it until the end. Blunting a feature is quick and easy (I decide which grit of sandpaper will give the amount of softness I need). Sharpening a blunted feature requires removing a lot of wood.
All aspects should be considered, each step should be done perfectly. It’s impossible to make the perfect bowl with less than perfect aspects. (I know this is absurd, but that’s how I think about it)
Simple is good. Simple is really hard.

I guess I strayed a bit from the design question, maybe not too much. My designs are very simple, as I think they should be. So much of the beauty is in the craft itself, some of the things I mention above. It makes the biggest difference to the beauty of the bowl, and is the thing that doesn’t cost a lot of money, require more and more tools, pressure pots, epoxies and kool color inlays, and on and on. Just your eyes and your head, and a desire to make the next piece a bit closer to perfect.

 

[Kevin Weir]

No bowl should have a flat bottom. Strive for a flowing curve.

 

[Norm Marentette]

Totally agree with you Marc! Could not have explained it any better.

 

[RichColvin]

From the master, Dieter Rams: 10 principles for good design

Good design is innovative

The possibilities for innovation are not, by any means, exhausted. Technological development is always offering new opportunities for innovative design. But innovative design always develops in tandem with innovative technology, and can never be an end in itself.​

​

In wood turning, the basket weave illusion is a great example of this.​

Good design makes a product useful

A product is bought to be used. It has to satisfy certain criteria, not only functional, but also psychological and aesthetic. Good design emphasises the usefulness of a product whilst disregarding anything that could possibly detract from it.​

Good design is aesthetic

The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products we use every day affect our person and our well-being. But only well-executed objects can be beautiful.​

Good design makes a product understandable

It clarifies the product’s structure. Better still, it can make the product talk. At best, it is self-explanatory.​

Good design is unobtrusive

Products fulfilling a purpose are like tools. They are neither decorative objects nor works of art. Their design should therefore be both neutral and restrained, to leave room for the user’s self-expression.​

Good design is honest

It does not make a product more innovative, powerful or valuable than it really is. It does not attempt to manipulate the consumer with promises that cannot be kept.​

Good design is long-lasting

It avoids being fashionable and therefore never appears antiquated. Unlike fashionable design, it lasts many years – even in today’s throwaway society.​

​

The calabash bowl shape is a great example.​

Good design is thorough down to the last detail

Nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance. Care and accuracy in the design process show respect towards the user.​

Good design is environmentally-friendly

Design makes an important contribution to the preservation of the environment. It conserves resources and minimises physical and visual pollution throughout the lifecycle of the product.​

Good design is as little design as possible

Less, but better – because it concentrates on the essential aspects, and the products are not burdened with non-essentials. Back to purity, back to simplicity.​

 

[hockenbery]

When I work with natural edge pieces - a good part of my design comes from evaluating the bark contours, cutting the blank and marking the center of the opening to get rim contour I want.

Here is how I get a heart shaped bowl rim I want from a crotch
. . .

 

[Bill Boehme]

I read a piece by David Ellsworth saying he puts a chunk of wood in the lathe and let's the wood determine the design (not sure I believe that).

I'm a little skeptical that DE actually said that. That sounds more like something that a beginner would say and can be a contributing factor for painting oneself into a corner. I'm pretty sure that a chunk of wood has never had anything to say to me or maybe I'm just too hard of hearing. I make basket illusion turnings and before I start, I research Native American coiled basket designs and make detailed CAD drawings before tools touch the wood. The only time I hear wood having anything to say has nothing to do with design, but instead, it is letting me know that it's unhappy and is considering flying off the lathe.

 

[Ric Williams]

I'm pretty sure the voices in my head aren't coming from the wood, but regardless, it's not unusual to have the wood influence changes to either hide or get rid of an undesirable feature, or to highlight a desirable one, so in that sense, the wood has some "say" in the results. At least, that's my excuse, and I'm stickin' with it.

 

[Monty Ivy]

Too many rules make Jack a dull boy. Wood can talk, how are your listening skills? From a my perspective design in this context is ultimately a diminishing continuum starting with a living tree and ending with an object. Everything in between those two points are choices that a human made.

​

Intent:​

Your mission statement goes here. I'm going to make a bowl, box, hollow form, a whatever. Design options are wide here

Selection:​

If I'm going to make the object in our mission statement, I need to make some choices. Dimension of the material, type of material, orientation of the material as it relates to the object. Design options begin to narrow.

Implementation:​

This gets to the heart of what we do. If I'm making a bowl, it's very helpful not to turn a box form. Cut that knot out, no leave the knot. Shorten the form to remove that crack, no use superglue instead. Fill that bug hole or leave it. Rough turn then dry the blank, leave the wood green and turn to finish size. Design options now greatly narrowed by my choices.

Finalize:​

Realizing the object in the mission statement. Sand, stain, embellish, pop, beads, finish. As we progress down this road design options have narrowed to zero.


Seems like this is one of those things in life that can be as simple or as complicated as you make it. Sometimes, less is more, other times you need to bring your AAA game. At the end of the day, it's your choices that make all of the difference.

 

[odie]

Selection:​

If I'm going to make the object in our mission statement, I need to make some choices. Dimension of the material, type of material, orientation of the material as it relates to the object. Design options begin to narrow.

When making a bowl, there is an important decision we all need to make, and that's covered by Monty's "selection" data. This is to choose either a "horseshoe" or "rainbow" end grain orientation. The horseshoe pattern is like a "U" shape when directly viewing the end grain from the side, and the rainbow pattern is an upside down U shape.

I generally prefer the horseshoe grain pattern, because I feel it most often leads to a more interesting visual impact in a finished bowl. There are times when the choice will be the rainbow pattern, though. The choice can be influenced by things like interesting grain you want to accentuate......or things like cracks, bug holes, voids, bark inclusions, and other things you wish to avoid.

-o-

 

[Jeff Jackson]

The inside diameter should not exceed the outside diameter

 

[hockenbery]

The inside diameter should not exceed the outside diameter

Why eliminate voids and windows in multi center turnings ;-)

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I'm a little skeptical that DE actually said that.

Regarding my memory of DE saying he lets the wood determine the form, I Googled on "DE chunk of wood in lathe" looking for confirmation of my memory. The first hit was a John Kelsey video interview with DE. I learned interesting things about DE's path to fame. One thing was that he made thousands of identical salt and pepper shakers just for money to live on. Remember back when I talked about CNC and major push back was related to CNC's being only good for mass production which apparently is the worst sin a woodturner could commit.

The most interesting thing to me was his hollow forms being the reason for his early fame. Seeing some early ones at first glance my impression was a piece of wood, maybe 12" diameter, not particularly good design-wise, sort of like early UFO sightings that were described as flying saucers, a nice shiny finish with a small hole in the top. Then you're told it has a 3/16" wall thickness. It seems his technical skills in thin wall vessels became the attraction. My "form follows function" rule comes into play, what's the function of a hollow form other than to demonstrate a turner's hand skills? And you have to take the turner's word that the walls are thin because the objects are too fragile for handling. One of my attractions to wood objects is being able to handle them.

Not to ramble too much, here's a John Jordan story. This was at the Portland symposium, John had a booth in the vendor area. Looking at his name and location I realized I know this guy from a non-woodturning forum, it was like meeting an old friend. One of his trademark hollow forms was on the table so I asked if I could pick it up, never having even touched a hollow form previously. His wife kinda shook her head no, no, no. John said okay, be careful. Got my feet positioned ready to lift. Hands ready for a firm grip and thinking for some reason it was going to weigh about 30 pounds. It was so light I almost threw it back over my head. The look on their faces was something. I put it down and apologized for the scare. It was a much better design than the early DE pieces still no function.

 

[Kirk Amidon]

I think the quote from DE is a slight interpretation - in one of his videos where he demonstrates bowl turning (mid maryland woodturners maybe?) on You Tube, he talks about why he starts his blanks between centers, which allows him to rough and learn more about that particular piece of wood. He can then adjust where the centers are located in order to better feature the woods interesting grains and character or to balance the form. This can't be as easily done if you start with a chuck in a drilled recess, or with a wood worm.

 

[hockenbery]

mass production which apparently is the worst sin a woodturner could commit.

I’m a bit confused by this statement. Is it the concept of machine versus person?
Or masses of multiples versus one of a kind?

Many many well known turners do or did production work often sold wholesale.
Thousands of items looking very much alike individually turned.
Nick Cook, Mike mahoney, Glenn Lucas, are best known for their production work - being able to complete items better and faster than most.

Many other turners such as Trent Bosch, Richard Raffan, Liam O’Neil, Al Stirt, did a lot of production work to pay the bills until their art sales took off.

 

[odie]

Regarding my memory of DE saying he lets the wood determine the form, I Googled on "DE chunk of wood in lathe" looking for confirmation of my memory. The first hit was a John Kelsey video interview with DE. I learned interesting things about DE's path to fame. One thing was that he made thousands of identical salt and pepper shakers just for money to live on. Remember back when I talked about CNC and major push back was related to CNC's being only good for mass production which apparently is the worst sin a woodturner could commit.

The most interesting thing to me was his hollow forms being the reason for his early fame. Seeing some early ones at first glance my impression was a piece of wood, maybe 12" diameter, not particularly good design-wise, sort of like early UFO sightings that were described as flying saucers, a nice shiny finish with a small hole in the top. Then you're told it has a 3/16" wall thickness. It seems his technical skills in thin wall vessels became the attraction. My "form follows function" rule comes into play, what's the function of a hollow form other than to demonstrate a turner's hand skills? And you have to take the turner's word that the walls are thin because the objects are too fragile for handling. One of my attractions to wood objects is being able to handle them.

Not to ramble too much, here's a John Jordan story. This was at the Portland symposium, John had a booth in the vendor area. Looking at his name and location I realized I know this guy from a non-woodturning forum, it was like meeting an old friend. One of his trademark hollow forms was on the table so I asked if I could pick it up, never having even touched a hollow form previously. His wife kinda shook her head no, no, no. John said okay, be careful. Got my feet positioned ready to lift. Hands ready for a firm grip and thinking for some reason it was going to weigh about 30 pounds. It was so light I almost threw it back over my head. The look on their faces was something. I put it down and apologized for the scare. It was a much better design than the early DE pieces still no function.

One thing I like about you, Doug.....is your openness about saying things that some on this forum will take exception to. You and I have crossed swords once or twice in the past, as well. Because your reasoning is obviously based on freely giving personal perceptions and experience, your input is becoming an asset for contemplation.....not that we still don't agree on certain things, but your thinking, regardless of how the anticipated responses may be, has become something to look forward to.....

-o-

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

’m a bit confused by this statement. Is it the concept of machine versus person?
Or masses of multiples versus one of a kind?

Hock, I don't know what the concept is or was. In my oval bowl thread with CNC a year or so ago there was worry that CNC people would produce masses, I think,, of the same item.

Actually there were so many misconceptions in that thread about CNC from individuals who claimed years of CNC ownership and experience I called their opinions nonsense out of frustration. Things deteriorated from there.

CNC should be a valid and possibly encouraged topic for discussion on this forum At the very bottom of the AAW home page they have a statement about the AAW being the place where advancements in turning originates. CNC certainly qualifies as an advancement with the lower cost of machines and ease of use software these days.

 

[hockenbery]

CNC should be a valid and possibly encouraged topic for discussion on this forum At the very bottom of the AAW home page they have a statement about the AAW being the place where advancements in turning originates. CNC certainly qualifies as an advancement with the lower cost of machines and ease of use software these days.

First, I think of CNC as another tool. Digital printing is a tool. I use a vinyl cutter in my sand carving - it’s a tool.
imho discussing CNC as it relates to turning as an extension or an alternative to turning is fine with me.

CNC is a process. turning is a process. Both processes can make bowls.
Turning cannot produce a CNCd bowl. CNC cannot produce a turned bowl.

While the CNC process cannot create a turned object, it can create many of the objects created by turners. Hand carvers can create many of the same objects too. And 3D printing can create many of them too.

No one can tell if a well made bowl was done by
CNC, Carving, or Turning Those are the processes The product is the bowl.
You can have a Turned Bowl, a Carved Bowl, a 3D Printed bowl or a CNCd Bowl depending on the process used.
If they are well done you couldn’t tell the process. The digitally printed bowl may lack a grain pattern but that will come.

I think CNC can make an excellent bowl. CNC cannot make a turned bowl..
AAW features articles on all sorts of things that are not turning.
There is certainly room for CNC in the AAW tent and the Wood Art tent.
It’s another related process like laser engraving, carving, digital printing, sand blasting…… these are all advancements related to woodturning which are themselves not woodturning but may be useful to AAW members.

 

[odie]

CNC is a process. turning is a process. Both processes can make bowls.
Turning cannot produce a CNCd bowl. CNC cannot produce a turned bowl.

^^^^^ Al is correct here.

CNC is not turning....this is the bottom line.

If there were a special place to discuss CNC in the AAW forums, that would be appropriate......it would be just as appropriate as the Ornamental turning forum we currently have. The CNC discussion would be appropriate, but it would not be appropriate to incorporate the CNC discussion with traditional turning subjects.....simply because, as Al implies, they are not the same process.

-o-

 

[hockenbery]

If there were a special place to discuss CNC in the AAW forums, that would be appropriate...

I have a different thought - there is room in the forum for lots of stuff that isn’t turning.
People can choose to ignore both threads and contributors.

I appreciate seeing some of the shapes that 3D printing and CNC can create.

We have threads on routers, laser engravers, sand blasting, thread cutting jigs, carving, 3D printing, and all sorts of process that are ancillary to turning.
I think CNC, 3D printing, and laser engraving will be used by more and more woodturners as price comes down and you have to learn less to use them.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Since I bought a CNC (although I cannot even unbox it for a couple weeks yet, have a show to prepare for) I have looked at a number of CNC videos. Now I know that someone with the skill in CNC could easily figure how to make a bowl with a stationary piece of wood (OK not turning). But I have seen a number of folks who have made their own CNC machines and have made big openings in their tables where they could put very large pieces under it and sign for instance the bottom of a bowl. Now if they put a 4th axis under ther and mounted a piece of wood that now turns and they then cut out that bowl would that not be a turned bowl? Yea or Nay?

 

[Michael Anderson]

what's the function of a hollow form other than to demonstrate a turner's hand skills?

Plenty of functional reasons to make a hollowform (aside from being a testament to the turners' skill). Without getting into the minutiae, the following quick-list comes to mind: weight distribution/balance, resonating chambers on some wooden instruments, prevention of cracking, pierced/carved vessels, material storage, etc... You could argue that you might make a two-piece hollowform for each of these (and eliminate the need to hollow through a small opening), and you would be right. But, sometimes you might not want to lose the continuity of the grain. And if you're dogmatic about form following function, then I can't really think of any reason to use wood instead of plastics, metals, or ceramics. That last statement is a bit hyperbolic.

 

[stu senator]

The inside diameter should not exceed the outside diameter

The inside depth should not exceed the outside depth (unless you are making a funnel).

Stu

 

[Russ Braun]

Plenty of functional reasons to make a hollowform (aside from being a testament to the turners' skill). Without getting into the minutiae, the following quick-list comes to mind: weight distribution/balance, resonating chambers on some wooden instruments, prevention of cracking, pierced/carved vessels, material storage, etc... You could argue that you might make a two-piece hollowform for each of these (and eliminate the need to hollow through a small opening), and you would be right. But, sometimes you might not want to lose the continuity of the grain. And if you're dogmatic about form following function, then I can't really think of any reason to use wood instead of plastics, metals, or ceramics. That last statement is a bit hyperbolic.

Or you could create a 20K piece hollowform by segmenting, haha!

I propose that “eye candy” is a function!

Regarding personal design rules, I still fight the urge to create a fabulous “new” form. They are as or rarer than an honest politician!! My rule is form should be “honed” each time you turn….even Jerry Bennett‘s forms are honed right out of the gate, at all levels of the process!!

 

[hockenbery]

, what's the function of a hollow form other than to demonstrate a turner's hand skills?

It is to make people happy. They hold dreams and memories so a sense of volume is good. The shapes and beauty of the forms decorate spaces so folks can enjoy looking at them. For me the form has to have a curve that is pleasing to look at
The function of hollowing is to allow the wood to dry without cracking.

What is the function of the turning on a balustrade? A square post would be stronger and easier to paint.

Basic Hollowing is an intermediate skill level. Split form hollowing can be done at the advanced beginner level.
I’ve taught hollowing to lots of intermediates and done a few split hollow form seed jar workshops with beginners.

 

[hockenbery]

The inside depth should not exceed the outside depth (unless you are making a funnel).

. That is good for bowl design
You need to expand your horizons. There are more shapes than bowls

Lots of turnings go deeper
Napkin rings, ornaments, jewelry, mirror frames, toros

Here is a mostly bowl shape seed jar opening
Scary turning through the bottom intentionally

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Plenty of functional reasons to make a hollowform (aside from being a testament to the turners' skill). Without getting into the minutiae, the following quick-list comes to mind: weight distribution/balance, resonating chambers on some wooden instruments, prevention of cracking, pierced/carved vessels, material storage, etc... You could argue that you might make a two-piece hollowform for each of these (and eliminate the need to hollow through a small opening), and you would be right. But, sometimes you might not want to lose the continuity of the grain. And if you're dogmatic about form following function, then I can't really think of any reason to use wood instead of plastics, metals, or ceramics. That last statement is a bit

Yeah, you've listed a few reasons. My comment was meant as more of a rhetorical question in relation to having watched about 20 minutes of a long John Kelsey interview with DE. The emphasis was on wall thickness. As I said a few of the objects didn't have particularly outstanding design looking more like a 1950's impression of a flying saucer with no indication of their hollowness to the casual observer.

John Jordan's piece was outwardly attractive to the casual observer. Somewhere I mentioned liking to touch and handle wood objects, there's something about wood that other materials don't have. I wanted to pick up his piece thinking it would have a solidness and a feeling of strength. Instead it felt paper light without the solidness of mass I expected. With the small top hole there was no indication of the hollowness. If the piece had some mass its function could have been as an item to handle to give a feeling of strength and stability. But the fragility of thin wall objects limits handling.

 

[odie]

Speaking strictly of bowls, and aside from a few salad bowls, very few turned bowls have any applicable function. There are exceptions, but the great majority of turned bowls have no function, other than to look good in their intended setting. From man's early beginnings, you'd find wooden bowls being used in everyday life....so, it's part of our heritage. In our modern times, the function is implied, but not realized..... You could say that a wooden bowl is in our DNA!

-o-

 

[Chip Sutherland]

Form....I generally try to follow a shape that I can find in nature....but is also pleasing to the eye. The one thing about the big YouTube personalities (by subscriber count) is that they often create something with a form that just irritates me. If I'm doing something intentionally abstract (artistic) then form has less focus. But form is important. I don't really care about how thin something is either.

 

[odie]

I don't really care about how thin something is either.

Neither do I.

At one time, about 25 years ago, I specialized in thin wall bowls. Nearly every one of them I produced was thin wall. At some point, I realized that nobody but a few other turners has any appreciation at all for thin wall turnings. Sure, there is a skill in making them, but absolutely no value to anyone else.

I could say the same thing about hollow forms. Everybody and his brother are making hollow forms these days, and the appreciation for them has become pass'e.....especially since a whole industry has evolved and dedicated to making them. I was in my turning infancy when D.E. was making his big splash with his hollow forms, and he rightfully earned his reputation as an innovator.....a true pioneer of the hollow form.

-o-