Woodturning Counterfeit Products

[hockenbery]

Larry, the visualizer is not an invention. It is not novel and is not patentable. It simply uses existing technology to accomplish a goal.

Have to nit pick a little here

The Definition of “novel” seems to describe the origination of the visualizer like a glove.
new and original.

“ novel: If something is so new and original that it's never been seen, used or even thought of before, call it novel.”

I suggest that using video and drawing on the screen to see where a cutter is inside a hollow form “was never thought of before”Trent did it.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

You make a point. I rather doubt marking the screen would survive a litmus test “outside”. A better approach might be doing it with software using layers. An edited pic of the tool is superimposed and Voila. A good Visual C++ programmer could do it in a heartbeat. It would be proprietary and defendable And sellable for $89.85. Such software could easily be monitored on your phone.

 

[hockenbery]

You make a point. I rather doubt marking the screen would survive a litmus test “outside”. A better approach might be doing it with software using layers. An edited pic of the tool is superimposed and Voila. A good Visual C++ programmer could do it in a heartbeat. It would be proprietary and defendable And sellable for $89.85. Such software could easily be monitored on your phone.

First time I saw marking the screen was a show called Winky dink my sister watched. Put a plastic over the screen like Trent and drew pictures.
2 nd time was at Kitt peak observatory in a DoD class studying information management, all the monitors had little circles on the screens. The astronomers marked where they saw things of interest in the playbacks of the radio telescopes to see how they changed.

In addition to marking the tool you need to mark a set distance around the cutter for the wall thickness. Drawing is simple.
This I do at the tool although this could be done with software. It’s a problem I solved In the 70s I was doing computer maps for DoD drawing coastlines and the international limit around the coast. Same problem.

 

[Larry Mercier]

Larry, the visualizer is not an invention. It is not novel and is not patentable. It simply uses existing technology to accomplish a goal.

Jerry, I'm even more naïve than I thought. Thanks Jerry.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

Larry, the visualizer is not an invention. It is not novel and is not patentable. It simply uses existing technology to accomplish a goal.

I'm not a patent attorney, but I have spent countless thousands of hours working with them. Unless there is some pre-existing instance of someone using a camera to hollow an object I'd bet dollars to donuts that the Visualizer was a patentable invention. Vast numbers of patents are based on using existing technology to accomplish something new. At the time I first saw it it was pretty clearly novel, non-obvious, and useful, the holy trinity of patentability. (Won't go down the "non-obvious" rabbit hole, trust that it has a particular, long-standing, well-litigated definition in patent law and any individual's interpretation of the words won't make a difference in court)

It's also important to remember that the point of patents, as enshrined in the US constitution, is to encourage the public disclosure of inventions such that subsequent inventors can use and improve on them. In exchange for a limited period of market exclusivity the law requires disclosure of the details of the inventions such that others can replicate it. Prior to the introduction of modern patents most inventions were held as trade secrets (many still are); it was the idea of the founders to encourage progress by providing a carrot for disclosing those secrets and allowing others to make use of them, either with follow-on inventions during the term of the patent, or as public domain ideas afterwards.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Good post, Roger. You only missed, "able to be reduced to practice" in your summary of the holy grail. You can invent a time machine but it can't be reduced to practice so no patent would be awarded. I know that you know this. It's for our readers.

You mentioned useful. The usual example is an ass-kicking machine (literally). It's novel, and it can be reduced to practice. However, it's probably obvious, but ultimately it has no use so, again, no patent. Now I'm just rambling.



I have spent quite a bit of time on patents, too.

 

[Michael Nathal]

ou make a point. I rather doubt marking the screen would survive a litmus test “outside”. A better approach might be doing it with software using layers. An edited pic of the tool is superimposed and Voila. A good Visual C++ programmer could do it in a heartbeat. It would be proprietary and defendable And sellable for $89.85. Such software could easily be monitored on your phone.

JT Turning tools did exactly that and marketed a combined hardware/software product around the same time (~2014) and for roughly the same price as Trent. The owner of JT has since passed away. Also Alan Zenreich has demonstrated at a few AAW symposia, showing ways to do it using iphones and other modern devices, that preclude the need for custom software. I always preferred the "drawing on the screen" option because you never know how fast your hardware/software will become obsolete.

 

[Thom Schuck]

Beware!! Those of you looking for a bargain on Amazon or eBay, be careful, looks like a Chinese company has started to counterfeit the Woodcut Bowlsaver coring system. After a quick search by @Bill Boehme it appears that they are also counterfeiting the Oneway system!
I always buy my woodturning supplies from known and established companies. I received an email from @Dan Hewitt , owner of Woodcut Tools. Read below what he had to say about it:

Please be aware that counterfeit products of the Woodcut Tools Bowlsaver Original are currently being sold on Amazon and eBay. These products are being marketed as ‘Woodcut Bowlsaver’, the User Guide, product listing, and many of the product images are being copied. The businesses currently offering these products are; Marketty, DearChan, and Bonbo​

Consumers buying these products have found that these products simply don’t work.​

Genuine Woodcut Tools are available from the following dealer partners: Where to buy Genuine Woodcut products​

We are a small close-knit community, pass the word around!​

• Woodcut Tools has evaluated these counterfeit products, it’s immediately clear that these products haven’t been made to the standard of the genuine Woodcut Bowlsaver Original, a product that was designed in collaboration with the community and launched to market in 1995, almost 30 years ago.
• Woodcut Tools have been receiving customer enquiries, almost daily, from customers who have purchased these counterfeit products requesting support as they cannot get the product to work and cannot contact the businesses offering these products.
• Woodcut Tools stands by the Woodcut Bowlsaver Original, we are available to support any of our customers. You can contact Dan Hewitt, the business owner directly.
• Unlike the companies that are offering these counterfeit products Woodcut Tools is connected with the Woodturning Community. Designing and supporting Woodturning products is all Woodcut Tools does, trust and excellent customer support are important to us. Many of our team are also woodturners. Woodcut Tools support woodturners, clubs and events internationally. With humble origins Woodcut Tools started as a souvenir store in the 1970’s that turned the craft sold, it’s grown from there thanks to the support of the community.

We welcome any questions, feedback or comments you may have from this announcement.​

Best regards,​

Dan Hewitt​

It’s a HUGE problem. They are now knocking off Bridge City Tools, “ now made in China”. I watch YouTube 731. He just did a knock off on the BCT Kerf/Tennon maker. I refuse to buy a known knock off tool. To me it’s like stealing. They also did it with the Kreg 90* corner clamp. I got my money back and threw the tool away. It was garbage. Now they are on the heals of WoodPeckers. They come close but there is nothing like the real deal. Woodpeckers have invested in tremendously expensive tooling made in Switzerland. BIG difference in tool making machinery made in China. Thats not a knock but it is a fact. I try very hard and always willing to pay the differnce in buying made in the USA. I wish I had the dough for a Robust Scout and universal stand. I LOVE that set up. My best advice is keep your dollars in country when possible. I try hard every chance I can.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

Are you talking about Bridge City fakes or the products made since the company was sold to Harvey? If the latter, I don't think that meets the definition of "knock-off" as they legitimately purchased the name and product line, and don't pretend to be anything other than what they are.

 

[Jim Quarles]

I remember when Craig Jackson, the founder of Easy Wood Tools, first introduced his carbide tools at a private showing on April 26, 2008 to a group from the Woodturners Resource forum. It took a few years, but soon everyone was making knock offs, even some "name" companies have gotten into it.

Just the other day I got an email from Harbor Freight advertising a knock off of what appears to be a SuperNova2 chuck.

JimQ2

 

[Jay Simmons]

The other side of the coin. I do not see where the products are patented or where the trade names are trademarked. It is a choice as to whether or not to do so. It is costly plus if someone infringes, you have to sue with your own money. Counterfeiting is a legal term for duplicating and selling a protected item using the protected trademarks. This is the price for not doing so.

As the owner of a very successful privately owned business, told me about a new item we had designed, “the day you file a patent, you must be prepared to defend it (costly) or don’t file the patent” hence the issue of trade secrets and CDA/NDA in business. Huge issue in my chemical industry

 

[Mike Novak]

Clones are not Counterfeit per se, unless they are attempting to pass themselves off as the genuine thing. Clones can fall in violation of Patents easily enough, but, it is so rampant in China , it'd be a nearly impossible task to enforce - once you get one place shut down, another one pops up.

Brian

There is actually a simple way to enforce. Just make “virtual “ stores subject to the same laws as “physical “ stores. If Amazon offered this counterfeit at one of its physical stores, Woodcut could go after Amazon for damages. If it was offered in The NY Times classifieds, Woodcut could go after The NY Times. Because it was offered on the internet, Amazon can’t be held accountable, and Woodcut has no one to go after.

This protection made sense when Amazon was a hobby in Jeff Bezos’ garage, but is just wrong now that Amazon is the largest retailer on earth.

We need our legislators to make virtual retailers and publishers accountable to the same laws as their physical counterparts.

 

[Jerry Bridges]

Beware!! Those of you looking for a bargain on Amazon or eBay, be careful, looks like a Chinese company has started to counterfeit the Woodcut Bowlsaver coring system. After a quick search by @Bill Boehme it appears that they are also counterfeiting the Oneway system!
I always buy my woodturning supplies from known and established companies. I received an email from @Dan Hewitt , owner of Woodcut Tools. Read below what he had to say about it:

Please be aware that counterfeit products of the Woodcut Tools Bowlsaver Original are currently being sold on Amazon and eBay. These products are being marketed as ‘Woodcut Bowlsaver’, the User Guide, product listing, and many of the product images are being copied. The businesses currently offering these products are; Marketty, DearChan, and Bonbo​

Consumers buying these products have found that these products simply don’t work.​

Genuine Woodcut Tools are available from the following dealer partners: Where to buy Genuine Woodcut products​

We are a small close-knit community, pass the word around!​

• Woodcut Tools has evaluated these counterfeit products, it’s immediately clear that these products haven’t been made to the standard of the genuine Woodcut Bowlsaver Original, a product that was designed in collaboration with the community and launched to market in 1995, almost 30 years ago.
• Woodcut Tools have been receiving customer enquiries, almost daily, from customers who have purchased these counterfeit products requesting support as they cannot get the product to work and cannot contact the businesses offering these products.
• Woodcut Tools stands by the Woodcut Bowlsaver Original, we are available to support any of our customers. You can contact Dan Hewitt, the business owner directly.
• Unlike the companies that are offering these counterfeit products Woodcut Tools is connected with the Woodturning Community. Designing and supporting Woodturning products is all Woodcut Tools does, trust and excellent customer support are important to us. Many of our team are also woodturners. Woodcut Tools support woodturners, clubs and events internationally. With humble origins Woodcut Tools started as a souvenir store in the 1970’s that turned the craft sold, it’s grown from there thanks to the support of the community.

We welcome any questions, feedback or comments you may have from this announcement.​

Best regards,​

Dan Hewitt​

When I started turning, I bought some old (probably Chinese) tools on EBAY to practice sharpening. The steel is so poor they wouldn't hold an edge, but I learned how to sharpen. After that, all my tools come from American companies that only make turning tools. My tools are from D-Way, Thompson, Carter and Son to name a few. Perhaps the cost tempts some to roll the dice on EBAY. I do not buy my turning tools from Amazon. They may sell good tools, but I don't take the chance.

 

[RichColvin]

I don’t believe that 47 U.S. Code § 230 says that Amazon is not culpable. It reads,

No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.​

§ 230 is about information, not about transactional sales.

When Amazon sells products through their store, they are either selling it directly, or providing a storefront for another company to sell using their system. Either way, they are not a service on which information is posted (e.g., Facebook), and over which they have little ability to monitor the content.

Providing a bulletin board for posting content is what § 230 is about. Imagine a world where Wikipedia or the AAW were held accountable for the information posted there by others. These services would not be viable and we would all be worse off.

So, if you are a maker injured by something sold on Amazon, consider taking legal means. But do understand that Amazon is a HUGE business which can hire well-paid legal services.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

I remember when woodcut was changing over to the woodcut two. And they were having production issues with the castings of the main bodies of the tool. They are made in a China factory and the castings were not up to woodcuts standards. So they had a big hold up for months on production on either getting there original company to beef up quality or they where going over to another Chinese company to make there bodies. These companies in China make tools under numerous brand names. And some tool companies would in a heart beat use similar castings to make lower grade models to another company. It's done every day. Or as stated, the scrap bin is being raided for knock offs.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Another issue is all of the reasons nothing, nothing, nothing is made here.

 

[Tim Otto]

I remember when woodcut was changing over to the woodcut two. And they were having production issues with the castings of the main bodies of the tool. They are made in a China factory and the castings were not up to woodcuts standards. So they had a big hold up for months on production on either getting there original company to beef up quality or they where going over to another Chinese company to make there bodies. These companies in China make tools under numerous brand names. And some tool companies would in a heart beat use similar castings to make lower grade models to another company. It's done every day. Or as stated, the scrap bin is being raided for knock offs.

The Chinese are ready and willing to produce any level of quality the buyer is willing to pay for. It is the importer who sets that level, then the distributors who tell us how great it is.

 

[Tim Otto]

Only that counterfeiting is rampant in many hobbies beside woodturning. John (who I referenced) mentioned coin counterfeiting; I mentioned wine.

all I have read here pales when compared to the counterfeiting of the fiat-USD. This sounds like a political statement but it effects every tool we buy regardless of inherent quality. good work never was cheap.

 

[Gerald Etto]

If it's Amazon, then surely there must be a way to take that product or listing off since it is a counterfeit product?

Just my thoughts

 

[Russ Braun]

The “Everything is a Dollar” store will always have customers (and a level of value). Personal responsibility shouts “You get what you pay for”. This market will always exist…it likely has always existed.

Protecting people from themselves is a pitfall that screams to me “Where is my Lathe”!!

If you find things beyond your control, I suggest you leave them right where you found them!! Try Segmenting instead, haha!!

 

[Frank Martinet]

Emiliano, thank you for the heads-up.

 

[Chris Besse]

I don't think the Chinese have ever made or invented anything on their own. They steal and copy.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Paper was invented by the Chinese.

Source, Deutsches Museum exhibition on the history of paper, Munich. About 15/18 years ago.

 

[Brian Gustin]

Paper was invented by the Chinese.

Source, Deutsches Museum exhibition on the history of paper, Munich. About 15/18 years ago.

Not to mention Gunpowder and Fireworks

 

[Darryn Achall]

Not to mention Gunpowder and Fireworks

My research shows the Chinese also invented the compass, movable type printing, silk cloth, kites. They were drilling 3,000 ft deep for natural gas in the 11th century. I'm a little more skeptical of some claims. Such as invention of the wheelbarrow or creating covid in a research lab.

 

[Chris Besse]

Good information. I stand corrected and a tip of the hat to those who provided the information.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

Don’t forget pasta!

 

[Michael Lyle]

I wanted to chat about the Robert Sorby gauges etc being sold at Amazon???
Original Sorby Label and Logo. But nothing else mentioned about the tools as original Sorby made Tools and they are cheaper!
I like to save a buck but not to someone stealing …

M lyle

 

[Brian Gustin]

I wanted to chat about the Robert Sorby gauges etc being sold at Amazon???
Original Sorby Label and Logo. But nothing else mentioned about the tools as original Sorby made Tools and they are cheaper!
I like to save a buck but not to someone stealing …

M lyle

Generally, if I have doubts about authenticity of an item being sold on amazon, I will look carefully at the "Sold By" seller or brand name and do a google or Bing search (or both) for their company name and see if they have their own e commerce website legitimately selling same or similar products as what is on Amazon. There's lots of vendors on there doing retail arbitrage (Buy with coupons, discounts or stolen/store returns then turn around and sell on amazon) but they don't have legit business websites, so anything they are selling may potentially be stolen or counterfeit. I'd stay away from those. If they are actually sold by Amazon itself, chances are they are legit sourced from Sorby or a vetted supplier.

 

[Jay Simmons]

The other side of the coin. I do not see where the products are patented or where the trade names are trademarked. It is a choice as to whether or not to do so. It is costly plus if someone infringes, you have to sue with your own money. Counterfeiting is a legal term for duplicating and selling a protected item using the protected trademarks. This is the price for not doing so.

My career was in the chemical industry. The last years with a privately owned very innovative company, that could move faster than the behemoths. An advice from our owner who had innovated several items we all use everyday “don’t patent something unless you are prepared to defend the patent”. One of the reasons in that industry that so many ideas are trade secrets and not patented. Also why non-competes are so important to them.

 

[Frank F]

How many of us as woodturners and general woodworkers have seen a product and said "I can make that". Although we may share those ideas with colleagues, most of us don't turn into a business.

The problem I find with many Chinese knock off's is the "chinesium" steel and poor machining/casting. This results in an increased risk of the tool snapping!

But it's not just China. The big orange box store was selling a line of tools labeled "Milwaukee". which had nothing to do with the real Milwaukee line.

So when looking for bargains on Amazon or Temu, keep in mind, "you get what you pay for" and caveat emptor

 

[Simeon Mackrides]

I look at possible outcomes, and safety is first in priority.
Not that I'm wealthy, but IMO, the savings of a knock-off tool isn't worth the possible injury. Especially when you think about forcing a piece of steel in to a rapidly rotating piece of wood.
I went with Oneway's coring system and I bought it direct. I went with Thompson Lathe Tools when I began turning. Not because I like spending money, but because, my face and limbs deserve the best chance of survival.

Put another way; You get what you pay for.

 

[hockenbery]

I went with Oneway's coring system and I bought it direct

Sometimes that may be the least cost option.

15 years ago I needed another woulverine. Buying it from ONEWAY was less buying at an Orlando store that gave me a 15% discount.
Of course I had to wait a week for delivery.

 

[Michael Lyle]

Previously I mentioned Robert Sorby “named” gouges on Amazon at a reduced price.I didn’t
Get a response.
So does anyone know ? Does Robert Sorby sell Tools on Amazon??I did not buy one tho I was tempted.
I suppose a reduced price should answer my question?

 

[Brian Gustin]

Previously I mentioned Robert Sorby “named” gouges on Amazon at a reduced price.I didn’t
Get a response.
So does anyone know ? Does Robert Sorby sell Tools on Amazon??I did not buy one tho I was tempted.
I suppose a reduced price should answer my question?

I don't know if Sorby is a self vendor on Amazon, however, I have purchased Sorby tools from there before, and they were authentic. I'd caution one to use due diligence and observe carefully the "Ships From" and "Sold By" details I tend to avoid anything that "raises my hackles" ... I mean, a Hardware store, Rockler, Woodcraft, and similar places, sure... but a name that sounds like maybe a reseller (They buy closeouts, returns, etc at big discount and then re-sell often without mentioning that there may be flaws - Chips, fit & finish, other damage, prior use, etc...) I might think twice and see if they have other options (Though possibly at a bit higher price) and finally compare the selling price to what one might see from legit retailers. (Such as on their website: https://robert-sorby.co.uk/find-a-stockist/ ) You may often find the pricing a bit higher on Amazon (if you have Prime with free shipping) but less than "bottom line" price from a Rockler, or similar (Unless buying multiple items from the retailer, then shipping cost gets cheaper per piece compared to the "shipping worked into Prime price" price on Amazon

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

One thing about counterfeiting (copying) is it's made machinery available to hobbyist they could never have afforded if they had to buy the originals. This may may be especially true with metal working equipment.

Way back in the 1970's Delta Rockwell was able to prevent copies of their classic 14" bandsaw from coming into the country. Somehow they were able to prevent importers from using the full round top blade guard, The importers then used a squarish top with rounded corners. I have no idea of the legal basis they were able to prevent the rounded top copies.

 

[Darryl Fective]

Previously I mentioned Robert Sorby “named” gouges on Amazon at a reduced price.I didn’t
Get a response.
So does anyone know ? Does Robert Sorby sell Tools on Amazon??I did not buy one tho I was tempted.
I suppose a reduced price should answer my question?

I've bought a few different Sorby tools on Amazon. Some were sold by Taylor Toolworks and some by Hartville Hardware and they all seem like genuine Sorby quality.

 

[Richard Coers]

One thing about counterfeiting (copying) is it's made machinery available to hobbyist they could never have afforded if they had to buy the originals. This may may be especially true with metal working equipment.

Way back in the 1970's Delta Rockwell was able to prevent copies of their classic 14" bandsaw from coming into the country. Somehow they were able to prevent importers from using the full round top blade guard, The importers then used a squarish top with rounded corners. I have no idea of the legal basis they were able to prevent the rounded top copies.

If I read a 1945 patent correctly, the round top door held a patent. Labeled #25 on the patent drawing.

 

[Bob Vaughan]

There's not a whole lot that's new, just technical history we have yet to see.