Woodturning Counterfeit Products

[Emiliano Achaval]

Beware!! Those of you looking for a bargain on Amazon or eBay, be careful, looks like a Chinese company has started to counterfeit the Woodcut Bowlsaver coring system. After a quick search by @Bill Boehme it appears that they are also counterfeiting the Oneway system!
I always buy my woodturning supplies from known and established companies. I received an email from @Dan Hewitt , owner of Woodcut Tools. Read below what he had to say about it:

Please be aware that counterfeit products of the Woodcut Tools Bowlsaver Original are currently being sold on Amazon and eBay. These products are being marketed as ‘Woodcut Bowlsaver’, the User Guide, product listing, and many of the product images are being copied. The businesses currently offering these products are; Marketty, DearChan, and Bonbo​

Consumers buying these products have found that these products simply don’t work.​

Genuine Woodcut Tools are available from the following dealer partners: Where to buy Genuine Woodcut products​

We are a small close-knit community, pass the word around!​

• Woodcut Tools has evaluated these counterfeit products, it’s immediately clear that these products haven’t been made to the standard of the genuine Woodcut Bowlsaver Original, a product that was designed in collaboration with the community and launched to market in 1995, almost 30 years ago.
• Woodcut Tools have been receiving customer enquiries, almost daily, from customers who have purchased these counterfeit products requesting support as they cannot get the product to work and cannot contact the businesses offering these products.
• Woodcut Tools stands by the Woodcut Bowlsaver Original, we are available to support any of our customers. You can contact Dan Hewitt, the business owner directly.
• Unlike the companies that are offering these counterfeit products Woodcut Tools is connected with the Woodturning Community. Designing and supporting Woodturning products is all Woodcut Tools does, trust and excellent customer support are important to us. Many of our team are also woodturners. Woodcut Tools support woodturners, clubs and events internationally. With humble origins Woodcut Tools started as a souvenir store in the 1970’s that turned the craft sold, it’s grown from there thanks to the support of the community.

We welcome any questions, feedback or comments you may have from this announcement.​

Best regards,​

Dan Hewitt​

 

[Brian Gustin]

Constant problem, that - Part of the reason I closed up my small engine shop, when repair parts were no longer selling at a volume that could support my dealership contracts, and a big part of that was Chinese companies counterfeiting the parts and then selling them (You could buy in bulk and get 100 carburetors that OEM sells for $99, for the incredible price of just 3 bucks apiece plus shipping from China , you just had to buy like 50 or 100 units..)

Just kind of goes to show that the woodturning hobby has grown quite a bit (Once those Chinese companies spot fast selling products on Amazon/Ebay through their market research and data mining, they are pretty quick to buy one or two and reverse-engineer them to make counterfeits.)

So My advice to small businesses that are making and marketing their own products - don't ever sell them on Amazon or Ebay, if they prove to be a popular item, your days of profitable sales on Amazon/Ebay are numbered. (And make sure your checkout process clearly states you reserve the right to reject any order - and don't ship to unusual addresses - look up suspicious addresses, they may prove to be a freight forwarder, etc.)

 

[John Walls]

One of many items certain countries doing counterfeits. One of my many hobbies is also coin/pm collecting/selling, those countries has gotten really good (bad..) at making counterfeit collectables in the 4-5 figure range. When purchasing anything, one must be careful, I have ran into counterfeits selling for a couple dollars so it hits all levels of cost at more than just those 2 sellers and many-many hobbies. Unfortunately, one of those countries (borrowed) some designs, but yet seriously improved some Items I need for another hobby so I am forced to buy from said country but they are proudly stamped from there, I know they come from there, and so far, the products for that hobby are pretty good. All I really must say is, buyer beware, due diligence and research your purchases.

 

[Rick Urban]

Beware!! Those of you looking for a bargain on Amazon or eBay, be careful, looks like a Chinese company has started to counterfeit the Woodcut Bowlsaver coring system. After a quick search by @Bill Boehme it appears that they are also counterfeiting the Oneway system!
I always buy my woodturning supplies from known and established companies. I received an email from @Dan Hewitt , owner of Woodcut Tools. Read below what he had to say about it:

“Please be aware that counterfeit products of the Woodcut Tools Bowlsaver Original are currently being sold on Amazon and Ebay. These products are being marketed as ‘Woodcut Bowlsaver’, the User guide, product listing and many of the product images are being copied. The businesses currently offering these products are; Marketty, DearChan and Bonbo
Consumers buying these products have found that these products simply don’t work.
Genuine Woodcut Tools are available from the following dealer partners: Where to buy Genuine Woodcut products

We are a small close-knit community, pass the word around!

I once was given a spontaneous refund by Amazon for a product I bought that turned out to be counterfeit. I didn't realize it, but there is apparently an avenue to report that, and get some redress.

 

[Charles Cadenhead]

It looks like the counterfeit ones are about half the price of the authentic bowl saver and the reviews (for the counterfeit ones) are awful.

 

[Larry Mercier]

Beware!! Those of you looking for a bargain on Amazon or eBay, be careful, looks like a Chinese company has started to counterfeit the Woodcut Bowlsaver coring system. After a quick search by @Bill Boehme it appears that they are also counterfeiting the Oneway system!

Emiliano and Bill, thanks for the heads up.

 

[Mick Fagan]

As someone who is probably part of a very small minority, I managed to personally pick up my bowl saver directly from Woodcut in New Zealand. While there I marveled at how small, yet machinery intensive their factory was. Extremely nice and knowledgeable to boot.

Having used my Woodcut bowl saver for around six years, I can attest to how hard these units can be worked. The quality of materials used and no doubt the precision of their manufacturing process would make copying these very difficult, if not almost impossible .

As bonus, they are adjacent to possibly the best known Art Deco city in the world; Napier.

 

[Dan Hewitt]

Beware!! Those of you looking for a bargain on Amazon or eBay, be careful, looks like a Chinese company has started to counterfeit the Woodcut Bowlsaver coring system. After a quick search by @Bill Boehme it appears that they are also counterfeiting the Oneway system!
I always buy my woodturning supplies from known and established companies. I received an email from @Dan Hewitt , owner of Woodcut Tools. Read below what he had to say about it:

“Please be aware that counterfeit products of the Woodcut Tools Bowlsaver Original are currently being sold on Amazon and Ebay. These products are being marketed as ‘Woodcut Bowlsaver’, the User guide, product listing and many of the product images are being copied. The businesses currently offering these products are; Marketty, DearChan and Bonbo
Consumers buying these products have found that these products simply don’t work.
Genuine Woodcut Tools are available from the following dealer partners: Where to buy Genuine Woodcut products

We are a small close-knit community, pass the word around!

Hi Emiliano thank you for sharing this with the AAW, from a Woodcut Tools perspective we just wanted to make people aware that these aren't the genuine Woodcut Tools product, it is very misleading, these products have real defects and if this counterfeit product is purchased these businesses aren't offering support. There is no support contact details in the User guide or anything else they supply. I'm happy to assist anyone with any information.

As someone who is probably part of a very small minority, I managed to personally pick up my bowl saver directly from Woodcut in New Zealand. While there I marveled at how small, yet machinery intensive their factory was. Extremely nice and knowledgeable to boot.

Having used my Woodcut bowl saver for around six years, I can attest to how hard these units can be worked. The quality of materials used and no doubt the precision of their manufacturing process would make copying these very difficult, if not almost impossible .

As bonus, they are adjacent to possibly the best known Art Deco city in the world; Napier.

Great to hear Mick. Invitation to anyone to come and visit the home of Woodcut Tools here in Napier, New Zealand!

 

[Darryl Fective]

I'm pretty careful about most things, but I can see myself falling for something like this. I keep hearing good things about this system, so I've been contemplating... Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

One of many items certain countries doing counterfeits. One of my many hobbies is also coin/pm collecting/selling, those countries has gotten really good (bad..) at making counterfeit collectables in the 4-5 figure range.

my other hobby is collecting Burgundy, a very specific type of French wine. Rudy Kurniawan just got out of jail after years and was deported back to Indonesia—he was a master counterfeiter of very high end wines selling for tens of thousands of dollars per bottle. There are even some Netflix shows about him. Went on for years. Word is he’s back in business.

 

[Larry Mercier]

my other hobby is collecting Burgundy, a very specific type of French wine. Rudy Kurniawan just got out of jail after years and was deported back to Indonesia—he was a master counterfeiter of very high end wines selling for tens of thousands of dollars per bottle. There are even some Netflix shows about him. Went on for years. Word is he’s back in business.

Alan, what does this have to do with turning issues?

 

[Alan Weinberg]

Alan, what does this have to do with turning issues?

Only that counterfeiting is rampant in many hobbies beside woodturning. John (who I referenced) mentioned coin counterfeiting; I mentioned wine.

 

[John Walls]

Alan, what does this have to do with turning issues?

It goes to say counterfeiting goes well beyond woodworking but as op said, does also hit woodworking now. I wonder how long woodworking tools have been counterfeited? This, as well as my other purchases, I try to buy from reputable manufacture companies from reputable/knowledgeable retailers. Even then, a person must be weary, experts have been fooled by said counterfeiting.

 

[odie]

As someone who has a dozen homemade tools that I've designed and built myself, I might make them available to other turners someday......I'm very concerned about the information in this thread. Some of these tools are very simple, and would be very easy to counterfeit. The real advantage to them is the idea behind the use of the tool, and not necessarily the tool itself.

-o-

 

[odie]

I have heard it said that some corporate manufacturers with a good idea will build up an inventory in order to enter the market with an overwhelming inventory on initial release of the product. This is a business strategy which takes advantage of as many sales as possible, prior to when the counterfeiters can substantially enter the market and take advantage of a new product with a large appeal.

-o-

 

[Jerry Bennett]

The other side of the coin. I do not see where the products are patented or where the trade names are trademarked. It is a choice as to whether or not to do so. It is costly plus if someone infringes, you have to sue with your own money. Counterfeiting is a legal term for duplicating and selling a protected item using the protected trademarks. This is the price for not doing so.

 

[Jonathan Harkins]

The other side of the coin. I do not see where the products are patented or where the trade names are trademarked. It is a choice as to whether or not to do so. It is costly plus if someone infringes, you have to sue with your own money. Counterfeiting is a legal term for duplicating and selling a protected item using the protected trademarks. This is the price for not doing so.

Jerry, this is well stated and there is a lot of truth in your words.

However, following the laws of our country and globally agreed upon business practices has not prevented counterfeiting of countless products of corporations big & small around the world.

There is often some cost in getting all of the legal protections in place, costs that a new, struggling business may not be able to cover until they have been in business for a while. If the margin & volume of the item are low, it may just not be practical to ever expend those costs.

Copying the idea / product and marketing the new piece under the same, or very similar name is considered calculated theft any way you want to look at it.

It may not be meant as such, but your words, as stated, sound almost like an endorsement of that theft, as if it is OK to blatantly copy / steal another product and market it under the same or misleadingly similar name to cash in on its reputation in the marketplace as long as it isn't trademarked / patented.

Those who respect those laws and doing what is right for our fellow man are vastly outnumbered by those who rush to get the cheapest deal.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Jonathan, a simple explanation of the law and remedies do not suggest in any way that am a advocate of intellectual theft in any way. If they had protected their investment legally, Amazon would not have any choice in the matter. To do business in this environment, you cannot be naive. I invented the Wedgie sled over 12 years ago and deliberately placed in the public domain. About three years ago it was patented by some yahoo. Of course the patent is totally useless as it has been the standard for cutting segments around the world for many years. I found it hilarious. If you gamble with your slick new doo-dad invention, accept it if someone calls your bluff. You do not have to like it however.

 

[Graham Dolby]

I've noticed that Rikon is advertising a knock-off of the Oneway Wolverine sharpening system in recent editions of American Woodturner.
Presumably, Oneway is aware, but the AAW should reject those ads.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Jonathan, a simple explanation of the law and remedies do not suggest in any way that am a advocate of intellectual theft in any way. If they had protected their investment legally, Amazon would not have any choice in the matter. To do business in this environment, you cannot be naive. I invented the Wedgie sled over 12 years ago and deliberately placed in the public domain. About three years ago it was patented by some yahoo. Of course the patent is totally useless as it has been the standard for cutting segments around the world for many years. I found it hilarious. If you gamble with your slick new doo-dad invention, accept it if someone calls your bluff. You do not have to like it however.

I disagree. Those companies that are being ripped off almost certainly have patents in place. However, you would likely have to file in China, too, and then have the means to fight it. Enforcement is the problem.

Edit: I searched patents.google.com for a few names and didn't come up with much. The big manufacturers have patents but the smaller ones either do not, or they have filed for patent protection outside the US.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

I disagree. Those companies that are being ripped off almost certainly have patents in place. However, you would likely have to file in China, too, and then have the means to fight it. Enforcement is the problem.

Edit: I searched patents.google.com for a few names and didn't come up with much. The big manufacturers have patents but the smaller ones either do not, or they have filed for patent protection outside the US.

Kent, I am no stranger to that end of business. It is not pretty.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

I am not trying to be ugly. Putting anything on Amazon is the worst thing you can do with a good product.

 

[Larry Mercier]

Jonathan, a simple explanation of the law and remedies do not suggest in any way that am a advocate of intellectual theft in any way.

Trent Bosch's hollowing system includes his "Visualizer" There are many demos on the internet that show how to pirate his invention. IMHO, part of the intellectual theft is due to the big difference in price between the " Visualizer" and the knock offs. Many of us are hobbyists so we try to keep expenditures within reason. Although this doesn't justify the theft, at least it explains why intellectual thefts happen.

 

[David DeSimone]

I've noticed that Rikon is advertising a knock-off of the Oneway Wolverine sharpening system in recent editions of American Woodturner.
Presumably, Oneway is aware, but the AAW should reject those ads.

Other companies have come out with Wolverine clones or near clones recently. I assumed it meant that the Wolverine patent has expired.

 

[hughie]

It is the way of the internet to some extent, and for the most part most fly under the radar. But this is a disturbing trend as we see the radar threshold being lowered. Short runs of copied tools and moving on once discovered, its is the worst side of entrepreneurs.

 

[hughie]

Other companies have come out with Wolverine clones or near clones recently. I assumed it meant that the Wolverine patent has expired.

Most likely David, but hopefully in the 20 years a patent lasts the company has built a reputation that will defend against these copies. This is by and away the best defence against this sort of practice.

 

[Dave Hulett]

Trent Bosch's visualizer system includes his "Visualizer" There are many demos on the internet that show how to pirate his invention. IMHO, part of the intellectual theft is due to the big difference in price between the " Visualizer" and the knock offs. Many of us are hobbyists so we try to keep expenditures within reason. Although this doesn't justify the theft, at least it explains why intellectual thefts happen.

replicating something like the visualizer for your own use isn't pirating. Now if they decide to offer it for sale commercially, that's another story and is why innovators must file for trademark/patient protection.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

Now if they decide to offer it for sale commercially

like this?

Trent Bosch Visualizer – Trent Bosch Tools

trentboschtools.com

 

[Dave Hulett]

like this?

Trent Bosch Visualizer – Trent Bosch Tools

trentboschtools.com

oops I meant his visualizer system, not hollowing. I went back and edited it! thanks for the catch.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Trent has a problem in that the hardware nor the software justifies the price. The hardware is available easily. What he has to sell is the software. It is custom but is not novel except just for targeting woodturners.

 

[hughie]

replicating something like the visualizer for your own use isn't pirating. Now if they decide to offer it for sale commercially, that's another story and is why innovators must file for trademark/patient protection.

Much depends on the jurisdiction you're in and the power of the company who made the original

 

[Russ Braun]

I like how Jerry did it. He shares a sled concept that is based on simple math (for some, lol), creates a series of wedgies that allow knuckleheads like me to cut any count segment we can dream of and offers them for sale at an economical price.

Now fast forward 15 years and anyone with a CNC can create a wedgie of any kind or count; this cannot be contained largely because of progress.

Now Jerry walks away with the reputation of an innovator/ legend; he likely did well riding that horse til it dropped. Those accolades can never be copied or taken away from him; this is a value that can’t be measured in $$ (or maybe it can).

The evolution of tools/ jigs will run its course until they become passé! I still remember the fine piece of equipment that was the mitre saw without a motor (it was dang heavy)!!

Now anyone claiming this wedgie idea as their own looks like a fool to anyone who knows better. You see them for sale. I would never buy from them and likely would call them out on it. It’s amazing how many new segmenters have no idea who Jerry Bennett is.

I needed a 9 segment wedgie which Jerry doesn’t offer; someone sent me a print out so I could make my own; I now have a CNC.

I do believe I am the unofficial President of the Jerry Bennett fan club; we have many members!!

Welcome to the world as we know it!

 

[Marc Banka]

What of the Vicmark clones, or Nova or one-way clones. Are they not counterfeit? A copy made in China? There are endless threads of ways to cheat the quality manufacturers because, we need cheap crap?

Which is counterfeit, clone, copy or just a really good deal? Where do we draw the line?

 

[Brian Gustin]

What of the Vicmark clones, or Nova or one-way clones. Are they not counterfeit?

Clones are not Counterfeit per se, unless they are attempting to pass themselves off as the genuine thing. Clones can fall in violation of Patents easily enough, but, it is so rampant in China , it'd be a nearly impossible task to enforce - once you get one place shut down, another one pops up.

As well, some of these clones may be coming out of the very same factory that actually produces the components for the actual manufacturer (Not to mention, factory seconds that are taken/stolen from the factory's waste bins- they'd be identical to the real thing, but they just don't pass quality control checks, then some employee or other, or organized grey market groups simply salvages from the factory waste bins, at little to no cost to themselves, and "flip" them on ebay, alibaba, etc. - Chinese factories don't have any particularly good security...)

It was a common way that OEM equivalent parts found their way to U.S. Markets at prices far below Dealer/Distributor cost in the Small Engine parts business (And I presume Auto parts and pretty much anything else made in China for top brands like Stihl, Husqvarna, and more... I can recall the cheap chainsaws with the branding changed to "Stahl" in a very similar logo to Stihl's - Although Stihl did see some success at getting rid of those, but then new clones popped up using the same designs, parts, castings, etc but in different colors and branding.)

 

[Richard Coers]

Trent Bosch's hollowing system includes his "Visualizer" There are many demos on the internet that show how to pirate his invention. IMHO, part of the intellectual theft is due to the big difference in price between the " Visualizer" and the knock offs. Many of us are hobbyists so we try to keep expenditures within reason. Although this doesn't justify the theft, at least it explains why intellectual thefts happen.

There is nothing proprietary with the Visualizer. It all off the shelf parts, plus pretty sure he wasn't the original designer. Can an idea be patented? There was another gentleman who made his system with some proprietary software. I don't know which one was first to use a camera. Wait, did Trent add a software to his tool? There wasn't any at the start. Edit: I just watched his video, no software. There is nothing to patent.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

There is nothing proprietary with the Visualizer. It all off the shelf parts, plus pretty sure he wasn't the original designer. Can an idea be patented? There was another gentleman who made his system with some proprietary software. I don't know which one was first to use a camera. Wait, did Trent add a software to his tool? There wasn't any at the start. Edit: I just watched his video, no software. There is nothing to patent.

I assumed software was included. Wow!

 

[hockenbery]

Vb

There is nothing proprietary with the Visualizer. It all off the shelf parts, plus pretty sure he wasn't the original designer. Can an idea be patented? There was another gentleman who made his system with some proprietary software. I don't know which one was first to use a camera. Wait, did Trent add a software to his tool? There wasn't any at the start. Edit: I just watched his video, no software. There is nothing to patent.

you know more about patents than I do.

I do know Trent was the first to use a camera for hollowing. A genius discovery? Maybe yes! Maybe no!
I know at that time there were thousands of people doing hollowforms who also took videos.
Many did demos with overhead cameras.
Any one of them could have mounted a camera in the laser holder. Trent did it.

When first shown the system most reactions follow a 3 step pattern.
“This can’t work”. “It does work” “how simple, why didn’t I think of this”

 

[RichColvin]

Clones are not Counterfeit per se, unless they are attempting to pass themselves off as the genuine thing. Clones can fall in violation of Patents easily enough, but, it is so rampant in China , it'd be a nearly impossible task to enforce - once you get one place shut down, another one pops up.

As well, some of these clones may be coming out of the very same factory that actually produces the components for the actual manufacturer (Not to mention, factory seconds that are taken/stolen from the factory's waste bins- they'd be identical to the real thing, but they just don't pass quality control checks, then some employee or other, or organized grey market groups simply salvages from the factory waste bins, at little to no cost to themselves, and "flip" them on ebay, alibaba, etc. - Chinese factories don't have any particularly good security...)

It was a common way that OEM equivalent parts found their way to U.S. Markets at prices far below Dealer/Distributor cost in the Small Engine parts business (And I presume Auto parts and pretty much anything else made in China for top brands like Stihl, Husqvarna, and more... I can recall the cheap chainsaws with the branding changed to "Stahl" in a very similar logo to Stihl's - Although Stihl did see some success at getting rid of those, but then new clones popped up using the same designs, parts, castings, etc but in different colors and branding.)

Before I retired, I was in manufacturing and have been to China many times. I have never experienced this. I have seen it in other countries though.

 

[Russ Braun]

Vb
you know more about patents than I do.

I do know Trent was the first to use a camera for hollowing. A genius discovery? Maybe yes! Maybe no!
I know at that time there were thousands of people doing hollowforms who also took videos.
Many did demos with overhead cameras.
Any one of them could have mounted a camera in the laser holder. Trent did it.

When first shown the system most reactions follow a 3 step pattern.
“This can’t work”. “It does work” “how simple, why didn’t I think of this”

The great thing about the human mind is how some people use it differently than the mob. There’s something about the obvious hiding in plain site waiting to be seen!! Thats pretty cool stuff to my mind!

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Trent Bosch's hollowing system includes his "Visualizer" There are many demos on the internet that show how to pirate his invention. IMHO, part of the intellectual theft is due to the big difference in price between the " Visualizer" and the knock offs. Many of us are hobbyists so we try to keep expenditures within reason. Although this doesn't justify the theft, at least it explains why intellectual thefts happen.

Larry, the visualizer is not an invention. It is not novel and is not patentable. It simply uses existing technology to accomplish a goal.