What is a turned object?

[Gerald Lawrence]

This all sounds like some committee meetings I have been to. ALL words and no solutions. Does the process really need to be defined? Just enjoy whatever process you select and be done . Call it something I have made from wood? plastic? epoxy? paint? dye? glass?

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

So, even though one can do turned wooden projects using a CNC (Computer machine) or a Rose Engine (Pattern controlled) neither one requires any great level of talent or skill when it comes to tool control and selection...So I wouldn't call them woodturners (I'd call them programmers/designers), or place their products in the SAME CLASS as that produced by traditional woodturners....

To produce pleasing designs with CNC you need design skills. There's graphic software to aid in visualizing your design with 3D views. Mostly that type software has a steep learning curve, just being proficient with the graphic software is a skill in itself not to mention needed design skills

A well known turner wrote he puts chunk of wood in his lathe and let's the wood determine the design of the turning. That's pretty simple, anyone can do that. With the CNC the design has to be done before anything can be cut. CNC has the major advantage though, being rigid with proper tooling and it can cut though knots and difficult areas with no tearout issues and leave a near sanding-free surface.

Once the design is determined to be acceptable the CNC has to be programmed. There's CAM software to do that, but again we're talking about what can be very steep learning curve. That's another required skill.

As to CNC tool selection that's an easy one. Tools for automated production turning were developed at least a 100 year ago and they're now available as carbide inserts that can cut with or against the grain. Unfortunately those tools are difficult to impossible to use hand held because of their aggressiveness.

It should be apparent CNC work requires more skills than hand turning. Different skills? Yes, but certainly not less.

Quality or class of CNC work? It won't be in the same class as a hand done turning, it'll be better. Getting to the real world, you make and sell your work. Categories don't matter. It sells on design and appeal. Work I've sold I found customers didn't care how it was made.

 

[Dean Center]

There are categories of fruit containing foods and the USDA or FDA has stipulated what those products can be called, based on the portion of actual fruit in the product. Strawberry preserves have to meet different requirements than strawberry fruit spread, for example. Same with juice and juice flavored beverages.

Clearly there are turned objects that are entirely made on the lathe, and embellished turned objects, and objects with turned components. I have seen objects in the pages of American Woodturner where I could not see what part had been turned. This really bugs me. Just like buying something you think is fruit juice, and finding out when you get home that it's got 10% juice and the rest is something else.

I propose we need truth in labeling in our organization and craft:
A "turned object" must be 90% produced on the lathe.
A "turned object with embellishment" would be made 90% on the lathe, but 'enhanced' with additional methods on or off the lathe.
An "object with woodturned components" must be made with at least 25% components that are 90% produced on a lathe.
Anything less than 25% turned may be spectacular or beautiful, but it cannot be referred to as "turned" in any description.

I acknowledge the requirements are pretty stringent, but that's just the cranky, picky, crotchedy old guy I am. Don't get me started on "Tung Oil Finish"....

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Did you hear the one about the segmenter that died and met St Peter at the pearly gates of woodturning heaven?
St. Peter said “ Welcome son, let me show you around, you are going to really like it here. The first door to your left you have the turners that do pens, they are a fun bunch. Just up ahead on the right you have the ornamental folks, I can’t understand a thing they are saying. Up ahead is your segmenters, they do a lot of thinking and gluing. First we have to sneak by this closed door so be very very quiet. It is the brown and rounders and they think they are the only ones here!

 

[Timothy White]

On the lighter side: AAW stands for American Association of Woodturners. Not AAO American Association of Objectturners
Would a bowl carved with a hatchet and a scorp be considered a turned “object”?
In the movie “The Natural” Roy Hobbs made a baseball bat with a draw knife and a wood rasp. Is this a turned object?
To me woodturning means turning WOOD! IE making things. Candle sticks boxes bowls platters pepper mills fidget sticks and on and on.
Making an Object D’Art doesn’t interest me. Although I like to look at some art objects.
When I was in High school I took Vocational Agriculture my project was raising chickens I started with 100 roosters then I bought 100 hens
To each his own

 

[Jerry Bennett]

On the lighter side: AAW stands for American Association of Woodturners. Not AAO American Association of Objectturners
Would a bowl carved with a hatchet and a scorp be considered a turned “object”?
In the movie “The Natural” Roy Hobbs made a baseball bat with a draw knife and a wood rasp. Is this a turned object?
To me woodturning means turning WOOD! IE making things. Candle sticks boxes bowls platters pepper mills fidget sticks and on and on.
Making an Object D’Art doesn’t interest me. Although I like to look at some art objects.
When I was in High school I took Vocational Agriculture my project was raising chickens I started with 100 roosters then I bought 100 hens
To each his own

I guess that leaves out corian, epoxy, aluminum finials, etc.

 

[Michael Anderson]

While we’re being exclusionary, it is the American Association of Woodturners. I don’t understand why non-Americans are allowed to be members.

(I hope it’s obvious that I’m not serious )

 

[Jerry Bennett]

While we’re being exclusionary, it is the American Association of Woodturners. I don’t understand why non-Americans are allowed to be members.

(I hope it’s obvious that I’m not serious )

LOL

 

[odie]

While we’re being exclusionary, it is the American Association of Woodturners. I don’t understand why non-Americans are allowed to be members.

(I hope it’s obvious that I’m not serious )

Point taken about American vs international, Michael......

I don't think anyone's work is being excluded here. This whole discussion is about categories, and not about elimination at all. There are those who feel by adding categories, it's perceived to be exclusionary, but it's definitely not.

We do need to consider that some "turned objects" have as their main emphasis, or appeal, things that are not part of turning.....but they are turned, if any component is produced on a lathe. They shouldn't be considered the same as things that are completely, or nearly completely on the lathe. There is room for everyone's interests.

Oh, by the way......there is nobody I'm aware of who thinks our international contributors shouldn't participate here. I'm sure the support for this is overwhelming, and all are welcome here. We do have a common interests, and that's what binds us......not the 1st A in AAW.

-o-

 

[Michael Anderson]

Point taken about American vs international, Michael......

I don't think anyone's work is being excluded here. This whole discussion is about categories, and not about elimination at all. There are those who feel by adding categories, it's perceived to be exclusionary, but it's definitely not.

We do need to consider that some "turned objects" have as their main emphasis, or appeal, things that are not part of turning.....but they are turned, if any component is produced on a lathe. They shouldn't be considered the same as things that are completely, or nearly completely on the lathe. There is room for everyone's interests.

Oh, by the way......there is nobody I'm aware of who thinks our international contributors shouldn't participate here. I'm sure the support for this is overwhelming, and all are welcome here. We do have a common interests, and that's what binds us......not the 1st A in AAW.

-o-

Oh I absolutely agree. I was just sipping my coffee and being cheeky with a reference to Timothy White's comment about Woodturners vs Objectturners (Timothy, I meant no offence, it's just my humor coming through). On the contrary, I've found this forum and the woodturning community as a whole very inclusive. Even though we (the general we, not you and I) have different interests and things that get our juices flowing, we appreciate everyone else's work.

I've said it before, but it might be worth saying here as well, that I like these types of discussions. To me, they're fun, and at at times I imagine I'm communicating with you all at a bar over drinks (water, beer, milk, whatever) rather than just back and forth via text. It's all good stuff!

 

[Marc Banka]

To produce pleasing designs with CNC you need design skills. There's graphic software to aid in visualizing your design with 3D views. Mostly that type software has a steep learning curve, just being proficient with the graphic software is a skill in itself not to mention needed design skills

A well known turner wrote he puts chunk of wood in his lathe and let's the wood determine the design of the turning. That's pretty simple, anyone can do that. With the CNC the design has to be done before anything can be cut. CNC has the major advantage though, being rigid with proper tooling and it can cut though knots and difficult areas with no tearout issues and leave a near sanding-free surface.

Once the design is determined to be acceptable the CNC has to be programmed. There's CAM software to do that, but again we're talking about what can be very steep learning curve. That's another required skill.

As to CNC tool selection that's an easy one. Tools for automated production turning were developed at least a 100 year ago and they're now available as carbide inserts that can cut with or against the grain. Unfortunately those tools are difficult to impossible to use hand held because of their aggressiveness.

It should be apparent CNC work requires more skills than hand turning. Different skills? Yes, but certainly not less.

Quality or class of CNC work? It won't be in the same class as a hand done turning, it'll be better. Getting to the real world, you make and sell your work. Categories don't matter. It sells on design and appeal. Work I've sold I found customers didn't care how it was made.

Acting in a play
Building a catapult
Playing the violin
Building a dresser
Throwing clay pots and bowls
Making a CAD/CNC bowl or 3-d printing a bowl

All of these things require skill and tools
NONE of these is woodturning. I find it absurd that anyone would try to call any of these things what they are not

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

All of these things require skill and tools
NONE of these is woodturning. I find it absurd that anyone would try to call any of these things what they are not

Marc, I'm not quite sure of the point of your posting. Since you quoted my post it seems like you're addressing it to me. I didn't say anything about woodturning in my post. My post was intended to give an idea of the skills needed to use CNC machines.

And what do you have against using CAD? Several talented turners on this forum have shown their sketch pads with designs and recommended others use sketch pads. Is that okay? But not okay if CAD is used instead of a pencil and sketch pad?

How do you feel about things like the ornate legs of our dining room chairs made in the 1930's? Most people consider the legs to be woodturnings. They don't fit the AAW definition because they were turned on automatic lathes without hand held tools. Being high end chairs if CAD and CNC were available at the time they likely would have been used.

 

[hockenbery]

How do you feel about things like the ornate legs of our dining room chairs made in the 1930's? Most people consider the legs to be woodturnings. They don't fit the AAW definition because they were turned on automatic lathes without hand held tools.

To me Wood turning is a process. CNC, 3D printing, automatic lathes, band sawing, etc. are processes
All can create round objects. The woodturning process creates turned objects,

Your example is an object to be appreciated and points out that the esthetics of the object have very little to do with the process used to make it.

The essence of wood turning is handholding a tool against spinning wood. That defines the process.

The majority of woodturners turners use other processes on the objects they turn Before, while, and after the object is on the lathe.
Sanding with drills, cutting threads with machines, carving, sandblasting, finishing are some of the common processes used in addition to the woodturning process.

I think of turned object as one whose maker used the turning process during its creation.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Like I said before, I want my own category. But now I am raising the stakes. I want a hat too, bright red!

 

[Mike Novak]

An instructor of mine said that what makes “woodturning” different from every other woodworking skill is that it’s the only one where the wood, not the cutting edge, is moved when making a cut. I think this comes pretty close to the definition put forth by the AAW. A woodturner then would be someone who does woodturning.

I’m always amazed by what I see in the gallery. I might be tempted to call some of them carving, or sculpture, or painting, but the one thing they all have in common is they were made by a woodturner!

Where it gets complicated is deciding what to call the things made by the woodturner. As can be seen by this discussion, this ranges from architecture, to sculpture, to utilitarian items, etc. Classifying them seems like a huge task. I can’t seem to decide if what we call it is important or not. They were all made by a member woodturner.

 

[Marc Banka]

@Doug Rasmussen
Sorry if I sounded huffy.
The discussion has been about what the limits are when calling something a turned object. Although there are wide differences on how much lathe time vs embellishment vs carving, we’ve all agreed (I think) that whether little or all,,it should be turned, ie go round and round with a tool held against it, at least for a little while.

I appreciate your knowledge of CNC and CAD and appreciate the contributions they make, prototyping, for instance. My point is that they have as much to do with woodturning as does Violin playing. I’ll save regaling you with the virtues of Violin for a more appropriate venue.

 

[Darryn Achall]

Oh I absolutely agree. I was just sipping my coffee and being cheeky with a reference to Timothy White's comment about Woodturners vs Objectturners (Timothy, I meant no offence, it's just my humor coming through). On the contrary, I've found this forum and the woodturning community as a whole very inclusive. Even though we (the general we, not you and I) have different interests and things that get our juices flowing, we appreciate everyone else's work.

I've said it before, but it might be worth saying here as well, that I like these types of discussions. To me, they're fun, and at at times I imagine I'm communicating with you all at a bar over drinks (water, beer, milk, whatever) rather than just back and forth via text. It's all good stuff!

Next time I come by Nashville I would go for an NA Beer.

 

[Tim Hunter]

...and then there's me and a few others, who like pieces that go round-and-round in an elliptical path - not just a single axis.

Tim

 

[stu senator]

Reading this I wonder about the clay people. They throw or make round objects on a wheel where the clay is rotated and the tool is stationary, a hand or tooling object.
After it is thrown it is carved or have parts added that were not turned. It is then fired and after is glazed with a mixture of designs.

Do they kvetch over what a thrown object is?

Or is it a wood turning thing?

I make brown and round because I like to.

Do I have to have a reason.

Make what you like. Enough of this.

Stu

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Reading this I wonder about the clay people. They throw or make round objects on a wheel where the clay is rotated and the tool is stationary, a hand or tooling object.
After it is thrown it is carved or have parts added that were not turned. It is then fired and after is glazed with a mixture of designs.

Do they kvetch over what a thrown object is?

Or is it a wood turning thing?

I make brown and round because I like to.

Do I have to have a reason.

Make what you like. Enough of this.

Stu

You got it Stu,
the American Throwers Association- Join today “We won’t throw you the wrong way“! 50% off if you bring a friend.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Next time I come by Nashville I would go for an NA Beer.

Sounds good to me!

 

[Timothy White]

I must apologize for my earlier post.
It was way off topic.
This post started as a simple question.
What is a turned object? It does not specify what the media is other than it must be an object.
The obvious answer is
Any object that is turned.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

...and then there's me and a few others, who like pieces that go round-and-round in an elliptical path - not just a single axis.

Tim,

I've been wondering why the lynch mob hasn't come after you. The woodturning purists must have recognized your method of creating elliptical objects doesn't even come close to fitting their description of turned objects. The only reason I can explain you getting a pass on the method is because you showed a well done and attractive result. It's hard to criticize a successful result.

It'll take some time before alternate methods of creating turning-like objects are acceptable to the AAW forum. Meanwhile we'll quibble over terminology. The acceptance will come as the advantages are realized....

The Ornamental Turning folks were noticeably anti-CNC when I had CNC'd parts in their instant gallery at the Seattle symposium. 15 years later CNC-like methods have become acceptable in OT. Just takes time for acceptance of new methods.

 

[stu senator]

You got it Stu,
the American Throwers Association- Join today “We won’t throw you the wrong way“! 50% off if you bring a friend.

American Throwers Association

Knives or ax?
Stu

 

[Marc Banka]

The clay people don’t kvetch over it at all.
Thrown= went round and round with hands or tools to form the vessel. Things can be added. Things can be cut away.
Hand built vessel= as the title implies, didn’t go round and round
Slip casting= very wet clay sandwiched in a mold. Not round and round.

Each artist enjoys their method. None try to say it’s other than what it is

 

[stu senator]

The clay people don’t kvetch over it at all.

Each artist enjoys their method. None try to say it’s other than what it is.

That's as it should b, A thrown pitcher can be carved, and a hand built handle added, and the surface distorted for a spout, glaze added later and it is still a thrown object.

Isn't that the same as the AAW definition of a turned object?

Stu

 

[RichColvin]

Tim,

I've been wondering why the lynch mob hasn't come after you. The woodturning purists must have recognized your method of creating elliptical objects doesn't even come close to fitting their description of turned objects. The only reason I can explain you getting a pass on the method is because you showed a well done and attractive result. It's hard to criticize a successful result.

It'll take some time before alternate methods of creating turning-like objects are acceptable to the AAW forum. Meanwhile we'll quibble over terminology. The acceptance will come as the advantages are realized....

The Ornamental Turning folks were noticeably anti-CNC when I had CNC'd parts in their instant gallery at the Seattle symposium. 15 years later CNC-like methods have become acceptable in OT. Just takes time for acceptance of new methods.

interested in what “CNC-like methods” are

 

[Tim Hunter]

interested in what “CNC-like methods” are

...none in my work...

Tim

 

[Jerry Bennett]

This isn’t fun anymore. I’m going back to the future.

 

[Russ Braun]

The great thing about debates like this is they help “enlighten” people to other ways of thinking. With some open mindedness on all sides of the debated question, we all become a little more informed. Unfortunately, not many of us “old dogs” are going to be learning new tricks!!

Learning to listen and understand different ideas is the best reward….”enlightenment”!!

Don’t get stuck with a narrow minded outlook, they put blinders on tow animals for only one reason!! A broader vision brings an amazing world into your line of sight…..what you do with that vision is really the exciting part of the equation!!

It’s easy to see why Woodturning is where it is!! What’s next is truly the exciting part for me! Who doesn’t eagerly await Tom Hale’s next piece!!

 

[Bob Brown]

Like most things, the consumer is the judge.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

interested in what “CNC-like methods” are

Rich, to answer your question I went to your website to find an example. It's pretty impressive what you've put together.

I would describe CNC-like as things like stepper motors added to an OT machine to do more than eliminate tedious hand operations. Adding a motor to turn the spindle instead of hand cranking would not be CNC-like. You offer a method which allows thread cutting by synchronizing two steppers That's not an operation that can be done by hand cranking unless there's mechanical synchronization so that would be CNC-like. There's also mention of "programming" too, that might be CNC-like.

20 years ago I got interested in rose engine type OT work. I used Indexer-LPT software on a DOS pc to "CNC" some functions on my traditional rose engine. That software could synchronize up to 6 steppers (if I remember correctly) but used cryptic commands that there were no way intuitive making it difficult to use. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that for me a standard 3 axis vertical milling machine was far better than a traditional rose engine. The mill will do anything the most well equipped rose engine will do and much easier.

 

[odie]

Like most things, the consumer is the judge.

^^^^^ Not if the consumer has a birthday!

-o-

 

[Heather Marusiak]

So here’s the thing: Just make what pleases you. Use whatever materials, tools, and processes please you. If the process and the fruit of that process pleases you, then that is enough.

Craft is the endless pursuit of technique. Art is confluence material process and vision. Learn how to use your tools, revel in the process, strive to attain mastery. If you can, make sure your craft is not soulless… and that your art is not craft-less.

 

[R Henrickson]

So here’s the thing: Just make what pleases you. Use whatever materials, tools, and processes please you. If the process and the fruit of that process pleases you, then that is enough.
Craft is the endless pursuit of technique. Art is confluence material process and vision. Learn how to use your tools, revel in the process, strive to attain mastery. If you can, make sure your craft is not soulless… and that your art is not craft-less.

Well said!

 

[Bill Boehme]

… Craft is the endless pursuit of technique. Art is confluence material process and vision. Learn how to use your tools, revel in the process, strive to attain mastery. If you can, make sure your craft is not soulless… and that your art is not craft-less.

That’s what I would have said, but you said it far more eloquently. I think that many people mistakenly see art as a more creative and skillful degree of craft.

 

[Chuck Kubin]

Enhancements are one thing, but when does an object become a carving? I turn mostly green wood. I rough my blanks with my chain saw. Would my finished piece be chain saw art? What about segmenters? Would their pieces be tablesaw art? Just asking.

I'm not going to get cerebral on this one. I believe is all has to do with the intended result.
Overall, wood that isn't turned isn't wood turning until it is. Turners use lathes to make round things. if you are using a lathe as your primary tool, it is lathe art.
If the basis is cutting a log with a chainsaw as a starting point then logging industry would be art...which it isn't. That pile of logs in your pickup isn't "future bowls," and the bandsawn blanks are neither lathe art nor bandsaw art. The pile of shavings on the floor with your dog sleeping on it isn't lathe art. Totem poles aren't turned.
If using a lathe to make something round as a starting point and then going in another direction to the point where the turning is no longer a major feature, then it isn't. My example is the stupid-ass carved skulls coming out of the Middle East, which I doubt have even seen a lathe, that pop up on some turning websites. Pieces that are deconstruted/reconstructed, burned, heavily carved or embelleshed in some other ways still have a turned soul.
Turning a minor feature doesn't make it lathe art; that knob you turned on a jewelry box or a dowel doesn't make it lathe art. Using a lathe to make facets or a the primary method to carve wood into finished pieces most certainly is. I would consider using the lathe to create art on flat wall hangings art; a depression on a laminated charcuterie board, not.
This one's easy: a segmented ring as a wall hanging is segment art. Turning layers of segmented rings could be called both, as the definition can go either way.

 

[Chuck Kubin]

Based on a four decade career where everything depended on differentiating and classifying all sorts of things ranging from individual shapes to how a craft was organized and its working methods (archaeological ceramics), I don't think that meaningful comprehensive definitions -- ones that a meaningful number of people agree on -- are feasible. There wasn't even real agreement about the definition of 'pot' vs 'jar' between me and a colleague I worked with for 20 years. I was the pottery specialist for the project she directed. Many discussions, no final definition. When I published material I defined my terms, for clarity.

Take just the word 'traditional'. What is a "tradition"? Whose tradition? Do you base the definition on working methods or end products? I use thoroughly traditional tools to do multiaxis work. My emerging bowl in the July challenge was done entirely with just a bowl gouge and a detail gouge, on two axes. But if I use just a detail gouge and turn on half a dozen axes -- while maintaining multiple axes of symmetry -- to do ALL of the shaping ON THE LATHE? No further modification of shape or surfaces. Traditional tool. Non-traditional(?) product. So what is it?

Ornamental turning has centuries of history -- clearly a tradition. It could be said to be a "traditional" form of turning. Does "handheld" rule out hollowing systems? Most are hand-guided, but handheld?

The devil is in the details. We use the same words but with idiosyncratic twists. An interesting discussion but I don't see a solution. Define your terms so others know what you intend, but don't expect others to agree.

I'll let Humpty Dumpty and Alice have their say
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

This all sounds like some committee meetings I have been to. ALL words and no solutions. Does the process really need to be defined? Just enjoy whatever process you select and be done . Call it something I have made from wood? plastic? epoxy? paint? dye? glass?

At the end of the day I support views expressed here that, if taken literally, the AAW definition: "Woodturning is the craft of using the wood lathe with hand-held tools to cut a shape that is symmetrical around an axis of rotation " is way too restrictive. That oversimplified statement would exclude the best, the most creative, most imaginative, most imaginative aspects of what we do,

 

[Brian Gustin]

the AAW definition: "Woodturning is the craft of using the wood lathe with hand-held tools to cut a shape that is symmetrical around an axis of rotation " is way too restrictive.

Again I wonder, how so? It does not specify that the piece has to be wood (Though it is implied by calling it "Woodturning"), which would I suppose exclude epoxy resin stuff), it does not exclude multi-axis, so I guess I am not seeing where folks are saying the definition is too restrictive.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Again I wonder, how so? It does not specify that the piece has to be wood (Though it is implied by calling it "Woodturning"), which would I suppose exclude epoxy resin stuff), it does not exclude multi-axis, so I guess I am not seeing where folks are saying the definition is too restrictive.

So would an 19th century lathe with mechanical shifting chuck that permits creating oval picture frames on a lathe fit the definition. It isn't technically multi axis. The axis remains the same.