The AAW, Detroit, and the Future

[Ed Davidson]

There is a 13 minute video on the AAW site, from the 2007 Portland symposium, that addresses this exact subject...Binh Pho's tribute to Frank Sudol that includes a great story on accepting (or not) things that are different. Here's the link.

 

[John Jordan]

Ed YoYoSpin,

Kindly change me back to NOOB (really). I happen to know Bill G. is armed, and I don't want him to think I pulled any strings.😱😀

John

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Too late!! When your post count hit 5 you lost noob and became member. 3 more to super member. Woooohooo!!

Ed

 

[Bill Grumbine]

Too late!! When your post count hit 5 you lost noob and became member. 3 more to super member. Woooohooo!!

Ed

I thought noob lasted longer than that. I guess I uhhh, shot myself in the foot on that one, eh John? 😉

 

[Steve Worcester]

Ed YoYoSpin,

Kindly change me back to NOOB (really). I happen to know Bill G. is armed, and I don't want him to think I pulled any strings.😱😀

John

How about if I change it to
"THE John Jordan"

 

[Keith T.]

John (Jordan), Thanks for posting; your comments are right on the money. I think that many turners are not aware of how long many of you guys have been at this gig!!! I remember seeing David Ellsworth at the ACC show in Rhinebeck decades ago, and admired your work in FWW mag for years before I ever knew there was such a thing as the AAW. I think we all need to appreciate things from your perspective.

 

[John Jordan]

How about if I change it to
"THE John Jordan"

NO! Thanks. I want a screen name.

John

 

[Garmar]

I appreciate Mr Jordan's words. He is certainly a major figure in the woodturning family. That said, let me say that this thread as started by Mr. Moore isn't relaying the underlying message as well as I had hoped it would. Average age of the membership appears to be going up, not down. I work in the healthcare field and I can assure you death really will happen to us all. Mr. Moore's concerns appear to be taken as negative, they aren't, he's sounding an alarm. WAKE UP!!! I'm no math whiz, but I can figure this one out. The job of attracting new members is going to be even harder in the future because grassroots america (rural america) as well as some urban areas DON'T EVEN OFFER SHOP CLASSES anymore. Its going to be left to current turners to stimulate future interest. I have 3 lathes in my shop and I continue to interest my grandson in turning from simple spindles to Duck and Goose calls. The interest is there and hopefully he WILL mature into a wonderful woodworker, time will tell. But above all don't be narrow sighted and dismiss a message of concern as one of negativity.

 

[n7bsn]

DEATH OF A HOBBY, film at 11

I just gota laugh at these people predicting the death of "Turning"

Why, well, my "handle" is my Ham Radio call-sign, I've been licensed for, well...37 years (WOW, I hadn't realized it was that long). I've been hearing the same thing about Ham Radio for probably 20 years.

Has Ham Radio died? Nope. Iit has gotten (demographically) older, and ya-know, the manufactures really don't mind that much. Why? Cause the older Hams have more $$$$ to spend then younger ones.

Does that mean we should not be concerned, and trying to attract younger turners, of course not. Nor should we crying about how the hobby is going to die, when it isn't

TTFN
Ralph

 

[Garmar]

I'm just sayin, Ralph

Word up!!

 

[john lucas]

I disagree. We have more young people in all 3 clubs that I belong to than we did 10 years ago. One of the downsides of belonging to the turning groups is that many of the members early on were much older and you have to live with the loss when they pass on. However they have left a good legacy by pulling new members into the clubs.
The AAW seems to be working hard to get new clubs started and to train younger people to keep turning alive.
I think it has more to do with how much free time we have and if we have the income to work at this hobby. I think it will be interesting to see what all of the adults do with their spare time now that they spend more and more time working on the computer during the day and less physical activity. Hopefully they will look for pasttimes that give them a creative outlet.

 

[Ed Reiss]

John,

Again you have misquoted/misinterpreted me. I said:
"I have a pessimistic view of the future for woodturning and I predict the decline of the AAW. As the old geezers, myself included, die off the lack of shop in high school is generating a population that will not look to woodturning for recreation nor as a vocation. I can't predict when the decline will start but it can't be more than ten or fifteen years from now. Efforts to make AAW membership mandatory for all members of new clubs was apparently roundly booed by chapter representatives at the chapter meeting. This high-handed approach will not improve things. The AAW is riding the crest now, but the wave is coming ashore."

I have predicted that the demographics will probably cause a decline in our numbers, but NOWHERE have I said that anyone will leave in a mass exodus, except due to natural causes as we age. I did suggest that we can't make rules and expect people to join. Implicitly I am suggesting that we must make people WANT to join and I don't think that we are going about it in a way which will lead to success.

Shoot me for what I said, but not for what I didn't say. 😀

The way to encourage our young people to engage in woodturning activities might not be coming inthe form of a formal shop class while in high school - which is an unfortunate situation. So...what is to be done? How about holding a Youth Program during the symposium! It seems that Bonnie Klien, Nick Cook, and others involved with it, brought forth to the kids that participated just what fun and how rewarding it can be, and after viewing the pictures, it looked like they had a blast! There appeared to be quite a number of kids involved. Those kids will tell their friends and the ball starts rolling from there. Perhaps those kids will even lobby to have their respective schools start a wood shop class.

You are correct about the attrition rate...none of us are getting any younger so it is incumbent on us "old farts" to devise the means to get youngsters to garner an interest in woodturning. They will be the NEW MASTERS at some point.

Ed Reiss

 

[Ed Davidson]

This was my favorite photo from the Richmond symposium...

 

[John Nicholas]

Shop Class

The way to encourage our young people to engage in woodturning activities might not be coming inthe form of a formal shop class while in high school - which is an unfortunate situation. So...what is to be done? How about holding a Youth Program during the symposium! It seems that Bonnie Klien, Nick Cook, and others involved with it, brought forth to the kids that participated just what fun and how rewarding it can be, and after viewing the pictures, it looked like they had a blast! There appeared to be quite a number of kids involved. Those kids will tell their friends and the ball starts rolling from there. Perhaps those kids will even lobby to have their respective schools start a wood shop class.

We can lament all we want about the lack of shop classes. I took shop in school and didn't touch a piece of wood for 30 years with serious intent of wood working. The experience was not a pleasant one.

What are we doing as individuals and clubs. It is not up to the National Organization. It is up to us.

Have you done a demo in the last year and showed some youngsters how to turn? Did you turn a kid a top? Has your club demoed in public in the last year? Did you support that demo?

Easy to say someone else has to do something. A little different when each of us have to step up to the place.

John

 

[Jake Debski]

We can lament all we want about the lack of shop classes. I took shop in school and didn't touch a piece of wood for 30 years with serious intent of wood working. The experience was not a pleasant one.

What are we doing as individuals and clubs. It is not up to the National Organization. It is up to us.

Have you done a demo in the last year and showed some youngsters how to turn? Did you turn a kid a top? Has your club demoed in public in the last year? Did you support that demo?

Easy to say someone else has to do something. A little different when each of us have to step up to the place.

John

Our four regional chapters annually participate in the local county fair. We have ten days of continuous turning 9:00am to 9:00pm. There is at least one and most of the time two mini-lathes and turners turning-out, bottle stoppers, tops, pens, etc, etc. All the materials are donated by the turners and sold at the fair. Allmonies collected are given to the Make A Wish Foundation.

My only regret in doing this is, because of insurance concerns and fear of litigation, we cannot allow the kids that stand and watch in awe, to touch a tool to wood. Some of these young people return several times during the day to watch. The interest seems to exist, but not mechanism to capitalize on it.

 

[john lucas]

I agree Jake. It's so frustrating to have people standing around when we are demonstrating. You know they would love to try it and it would go a very long way toward keeping them interested but we are so scared of litigation that we don't do it.
I demonstrate with my spring pole lathe at one of our local celebrations every year and I do let kid use this. I keep a close watch of course because the tools are very sharp. I'm currently putting together a treadle lathe that is kid sized and will probably try that out. I make sure the parents are OK with it of course. Still I'm a little nervous but it's kind of like bowing to terrorist fears. I don' t let them change my life I just try to be careful.
Our clubs have all expressed interest in or are already doing outreach programs of some sort to share our love of turning.

 

[n7bsn]

...
I demonstrate with my spring pole lathe at one of our local celebrations every year and I do let kid use this. I keep a close watch of course because the tools are very sharp. I'm currently putting together a treadle lathe that is kid sized and will probably try that out. I make sure the parents are OK with it of course. Still I'm a little nervous but it's kind of like bowing to terrorist fears. I don' t let them change my life I just try to be careful.
...

A friend of mine that is strickly a spring-pole type has done this, I am trying to get a treadle lathe together for next year... We will see if it happens

But both are much "safer" then a power lathe.

 

[john lucas]

My new one was supposed to be a treadle lathe but I broke the drive arm the day before I had to demo with it so I quickly converted it to spring pole for that demo. I'm going to make a new drive arm as soon as I can get the spare time.

 

[C Edward Moore]

Thank you, Garmar!

Garmar, I really appreciate your ability to read! Apparently the school system in SE Kansas is superior to those in Tennessee and wetter Washington.

Currently woodturning is in a growth phase. I did NOT predict the death of woodturning, but I predicted that there will be a DECLINE as many of the current members are in an age range that does not receive favorable rates for life insurance. My crystal ball does not tell me whether we will simply slow down the rate of growth and reach a maximum and maintain it, or if we will reach a maximum and then the membership will decrease and level off at some lesser number. And the other possibility is that the membership will continue to decrease, albeit slowly.

While I am concerned for the AAW, I am also concerned for the tool suppliers and the wood vendors. They will do better in a growth period than when there is a decline.

 

[Vernon Oberle]

Ole Farts

What we sometimes fail to remember (old timers disease), is that many of us don't take up woodturning or woodworking until we are older, have more time(kids gone), and usually a higher and more disposable income to spend on tools. I have talked to young people that would like to do it but don't have time or money.
I believe that the ranks will not dwindle that much with the passing of older members but will swell as the baby boomers get closer to retirement and are looking for something to occupy them. Our club picks up new(older) members all the time and a large part of the membership are from the local retirement village.
Vernon

 

[Garmar]

We Are The Baby Boomers!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ron Sardo]

This was my favorite photo from the Richmond symposium...

Mine too Ed

Wow!!!

The opinions expressed in this thread really have my blood boiling!!!

I'd better step back and calm down before responding!

A

Calm down yet?
I'd like to hear what you have to say.

 

[John Altberg]

Boomers Defined

Boomers were born between 1946 and 1964, inclusive. Makes them(us)currently ages 44-62, for those too old (or young) to do the math! (Just kidding!)

Suffice it to say, there will be plenty of people taking up the hobby of ALL ages if my chapter is any indication.

Regards,

John

 

[Angelo]

Calm

Yep, I've had time to reflect.

I can say the comment made by Mark Mandell makes the most sense to me and that is:

The show is, and always has been "Bring your stuff to show us what you do, whatever that may be." As all artist-to-artist communications must be, the IG must be fully open, with the only criteria being that the exhibitors be AAW members. The IG is NOT the AAW, it is AAW members, individually. The AAW provides the opportunity, but it does not sanction the IG nor dictate, whether officially or otherwise, what goes on the tables.

My belief is that, in America we have the right of free speech, the freedom of religion, the right to bear arms and so on. I don't believe that the AAW Board should even think about censorship of pieces shown in the Instant Gallery.

What ever happened to, " I may not agree with what you have to say but I'll fight to the death for your freedom to say it".

If offense was taken by the political statement, move on to something that does not offend your senses, there was plenty to choose from in the IG. There must have been something that tickled your fancy.

As far a the glib remark you recieved form the Board member......walk a mile in his shoes.

nuff said.

God Bless America

Angelo

 

[John Abt]

Thank you, Angelo. Well said.

John

 

[MichaelMouse]

What ever happened to, " I may not agree with what you have to say but I'll fight to the death for your freedom to say it".

Never was anything but hot air. I'll ignore or disagree, but when I fight I fight (fought) for me and mine. He who gives the bird should realize that there are risks involved and be prepared to do his own fighting. The "statement" gave the bird to a number of folks, as the responses indicate. It was bad manners, inappropriate, improper venue, and so forth.

Before you jump on the inalienable rights bandwagon, ask yourself if other aspects of the symposium were regulated. Freedom of assembly does not require free admission any more than freedom of speech requires we allow interruption of speakers at will. Would the AAW have refused a turning embellished with Kama Sutra bas-reliefs? How about those other hot buttons of race, gender and "orientation" other than political? So how would it have been (buzzword coming) "censorship" to say "we don't allow more than the name of the piece and yours?"

Is it censorship to deny expression to someone who chooses to use a nom-de-plume to describe himself or his work methods?

 

[Bill Grumbine]

As far a the glib remark you recieved form the Board member......walk a mile in his shoes.

nuff said.Angelo

With all due respect Angelo, it is not "nuff said". Fine and dandy on the art stuff in the IG regardless of its political message or quality. But about glib remarks and walk a mile...

Whenever there is a question, problem, or disagreement raised about how something is being handled by the AAW, we are told to speak to a board member about it. But, if they are entitled to brush off the concerns and questions of members with glib remarks, because of the "hard job" they do, then why bother even asking? Is the board there solely to hear attaboy, or well done thou good and faithful servant?

This is a big part of why people are disillusioned with parts of the AAW. It conveys the attitude of "we are the ruling caste, and we have no time to listen to your silly complaint, peasant." Maybe a complaint has merit, and maybe it doesn't, but the very position of board member should carry with it the expectation of having to deal with us proletarian swine once in a while. And if a person can't handle that, then they need to vacate their esteemed position as quickly as possible.

I wrote to a board member myself earlier this year and got the brush off in the form of a vacuous diatribe that was completely unrelated to my concern. At the symposium I walked up to the man and introduced myself. I did not bring the matter up, just walked up and said hello. He did not even have enough spine to look me in the eye. I was treated like something that he found on his shoe and wanted to scrape off as soon as possible. Now we have the biggest shot in the group telling us on a public forum that glib responses from board members are to be expected if we have a concern. Is this an official decree, or just your personal opinion? Forgive me, however, if I do not seem receptive to the attitude, regardless of its official stamp.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Before you jump on the inalienable rights bandwagon, ask yourself if other aspects of the symposium were regulated. Freedom of assembly does not require free admission any more than freedom of speech requires we allow interruption of speakers at will. Would the AAW have refused a turning embellished with Kama Sutra bas-reliefs? How about those other hot buttons of race, gender and "orientation" other than political? So how would it have been (buzzword coming) "censorship" to say "we don't allow more than the name of the piece and yours?"

Is it censorship to deny expression to someone who chooses to use a nom-de-plume to describe himself or his work methods?

First, your premise is a bit faulty in comparing the IG to the balance of a Symposium's activities. If the IG were closed to the General Public such that it amounts to a "members only" activity, censorship in accordance with the prevailing "community taste" [read "majority of members"] would certainly be appropriate. Similarly, if a group of males decided to establish the He-Man Women Haters Woodturning Association and have an annual convention with a gallery of limited admission displaying the members' misogynistic efforts, they are free to do so. After all, pond scum tends to form clumps. But the IG has always been a wide open public display with the individual members exercising their own "prior restraint" as to what they place on display. Once that changes, the IG will become the political tool for whomever or whatever viewpoint is in vogue at the time, and will lose its validity as a portal for artistic expression.

Ed and the Admiral certainly have the right to criticize the piece that raised their ire. However, that's very different from demanding the right to exclude it because they disagree with it.

You query as to Kama Sutra does raise some interesting possibilities which I may just keep in mind for a future show 😉, especially since the book's illustrations have been hailed as high art. However, I've been to several Symposium IGs and have viewed photo albums of many more. There have been any number of them with either phallic or vulvic representations (or both) on display in varying degrees of disguise that would not require Mssrs. Freud or Fellini to figure out. No hew and cry was raised at any of them. Is this perhaps like the difference between the Boy Scouts' 3-finger salute and the "Bird" where all you have to do is "read between the lines?"

peace

 

[George Guadiane]

What ever happened to, " I may not agree with what you have to say but I'll fight to the death for your freedom to say it".
Angelo

To my understanding, and IMO (humble or not) that is the cornerstone of the "freedom of speech" concept.

Never was anything but hot air.

Sadly, for some people, that seems to be true. And it seems to me that this shift in opinion/attitude is at the core of the behavior many of us have exhibited.

I'll ignore or disagree, but when I fight I fight (fought) for me and mine.

We all fight for what is ours, for what we believe in. The things that bothered me in all of this were the tactics and attacks.

He who gives the bird should realize that there are risks involved and be prepared to do his own fighting. The "statement" gave the bird to a number of folks, as the responses indicate.

I agree completely (go figure).
I live in a world where I can only tell you your wrong (for me) if I can explain WHY I think you're wrong. Name calling is for (fill in your own blank). People who just dismiss a whole section of "society" because they disagree are begging to hear from them, and in a like manner. And it seems THAT is where I get into trouble. As a member or supporter of many of the disparaged groups, I respond as if I am harmed, because I am...
AND, and perhaps more importantly, because an unaddressed aspersion is often deemed to be "true" by those who cast it and THEIR supporters.

It was bad manners, inappropriate, improper venue, and so forth.
Before you jump on the inalienable rights bandwagon, ask yourself if other aspects of the symposium were regulated. Freedom of assembly does not require free admission any more than freedom of speech requires we allow interruption of speakers at will.

(bandwagon already jumped on) I think this is a false argument, as regards the IG. There was no "interruption," just the placement of work that could have been ignored. Hell, some "Right" thinking upstanding moral citizen could have done their patriotic duty and destroyed the offending display.

Would the AAW have refused a turning embellished with Kama Sutra bas-reliefs? How about those other hot buttons of race, gender and "orientation" other than political? So how would it have been (buzzword coming) "censorship" to say "we don't allow more than the name of the piece and yours?"

Generally speaking, sexual (including orientation), political, religious, racial "speech" would be left out, as far as I am concerned, but some of the best works I have seen by some of our turning posters have had a religious element to them, it's a part of who they are. Should we deny them the right to express that part of them here? - I don't think so (much as it makes me uncomfortable - spirituality/religion is as private as sex to me). That requires me to "fight for your rights, in spite of MY beliefs." Some would call that respect, some tolerance, others ...

If you are proud of what you believe, if it is what you want to teach your children, if it is what you want to share with your friends, and if it is not illegal or dangerous to yourself or others, by knowing of it's existence, then (UNLESS THERE IS A RULE IN ADVANCE) you should be free to express it.

Changing the rules after the fact, to achieve a desired political end will never be accepted gracefully. I would be fine with having rules like that, but till there are, I would be offended by ex post facto rules to fit ANY ideology.

Is it censorship to deny expression to someone who chooses to use a nom-de-plume to describe himself or his work methods?

Not in my opinion, but it's not our call on this site anymore.

 

[Marc Ruby]

Shut Up and Go Away

Isn't "If offense was taken by the political statement, move on to something that does not offend your senses" just another way of telling someone to shut up and go away? It seems that you have a limited interpretation of free speech. Let me tell you up front, I'm one of those dingy liberals, and I do not think that I want to have this organization discolored by political conflict. I have other places to express those opinions. Here I want to learn more about woodturning. I prefer to find ways to get along with people who happen to have opinions other than mine, not create occasions for conflict.

Now I did mention that I'm here because I'm a woodturner, didn't I? I've been bothered a bit because a large amount of work I've seen in the journal in the past year has been only incidentally woodturning, or not at all. There are other art organizations I can (and do) join for other input and interchange. But you are right in one way. If the journal turns into a generic 'art' magazine, then it's not focused on what I want to read, and it's not really all that good as a generic journal. Yet it is my primary benefit as a member. I have the advantage of a local club that has open membership and it doesn't make sense for me to pay dues if you aren't responding to my needs. And you did just tell me to 'move on.'

Marc

Yep, I've had time to reflect.

I can say the comment made by Mark Mandell makes the most sense to me and that is:

The show is, and always has been "Bring your stuff to show us what you do, whatever that may be." As all artist-to-artist communications must be, the IG must be fully open, with the only criteria being that the exhibitors be AAW members. The IG is NOT the AAW, it is AAW members, individually. The AAW provides the opportunity, but it does not sanction the IG nor dictate, whether officially or otherwise, what goes on the tables.

My belief is that, in America we have the right of free speech, the freedom of religion, the right to bear arms and so on. I don't believe that the AAW Board should even think about censorship of pieces shown in the Instant Gallery.

What ever happened to, " I may not agree with what you have to say but I'll fight to the death for your freedom to say it".

If offense was taken by the political statement, move on to something that does not offend your senses, there was plenty to choose from in the IG. There must have been something that tickled your fancy.

As far a the glib remark you recieved form the Board member......walk a mile in his shoes.

nuff said.

God Bless America

Angelo

 

[C Edward Moore]

I'm tired of being misquoted/misrepresented!

Ed and the Admiral certainly have the right to criticize the piece that raised their ire. However, that's very different from demanding the right to exclude it because they disagree with it.

What I said in the initial post was:
"I attended the Symposium and like Rear Admiral Duffy, I was offended by the political statement that was in the Instant Gallery. It had no place there. I spoke IN PRIVATE to two AAW Board members and was given the "Free Speech" excuse for their inability to stand up and do what was right. I don't want to see ANY politics in the IG. People may post what they want on the walls outside the IG, thereby exercising the right to free speech, but inside should be WOODTURNING and nothing else. The Board members suggested that I write a letter to the Board. I indicated rather quickly that it would be a waste of time because the Board doesn't give a rat's fanny about what I or any other member thinks. (Hello, Detroit!)"

Mark, as an attorney you should know better. I specifically said that I didn't want ANY politics in the IG, and I don't. This is quite different from saying I want the opinions with which I disagree excluded. I don't want to see anything from the Loony Left, the Rabid Right, OR anywhere in between.

Shoot me for what I said, but not for what I didn't say. 😀

On a completely different front, I thank Bill Grumbine for his comments about rudeness of Board members. Probably none of this thread would have been written if I had been treated with a speck of respect. I remind you that I wrote specifically about the positive way in which Al Hockenbery treated me. I also had a nice conversation with Frank Amigo in which no issues came up.

 

[john lucas]

Marc My question is, how do you think all those local clubs got there. Without the AAW to promote them and woodturning as a whole there probably wouldn't be any clubs. Without the growth of the AAW and increase in the number of turners there surely wouldn't be as many lathes, chuck, tools, etc available to the newer turners. By supporting the AAW you are supporting turning as a whole. In fact I doubt there would even be any other turning magazines if it wasn't for the AAW. You need the numbers to make those things work. I've noticed in the last 10 years that every woodworking magazine out there (except woodsmith) has a regular turning article. They wouldn't do that if there werent' enough readers turning. Our local clubs who were mostly started by AAW members increase the numbers by advertising and demonstrating. Again, I think there would be very few clubs without the AAW. That is of course my opinion but I've been around long enough to see it all happen.
Why are there so many turnings that appear to have more work off the lathe? Well that's just the progression of things. When clubs first start everyone turns bowls and a few do spindles and maybe the advanced guys to vessels. Then 8 or 10 years down the line the long time members usually start adding little details to their work, carved feet, perhaps painted and carved rim. Then they start going to symposiums and see what advanced things other turners are doing and they add that. Next thing you know they are spending more time carving than they are turning. Granted that's not for everyone but obviously many of us have taken that route as judged by the instant gallery. I don't put down others who want to make nice bowls, boxes and round things, but I would expect the same courtesy when I start to add carvings to my turnings. After all the lathe is simply a carving tool, the only difference is you rotate the work and hold the tool still. I move the tool and hold the work still.

 

[George Guadiane]

What I said in the initial post was:
"I attended the Symposium and like Rear Admiral Duffy, I was offended by the political statement that was in the Instant Gallery. It had no place there. I spoke IN PRIVATE to two AAW Board members and was given the "Free Speech" excuse for their inability to stand up and do what was right. I don't want to see ANY politics in the IG. People may post what they want on the walls outside the IG, thereby exercising the right to free speech, but inside should be WOODTURNING and nothing else.

Shoot me for what I said, but not for what I didn't say. 😀

OK!
Not a shooting, but three questions:
1) Do you really think of "Free Speech" as an excuse?
2) In private or not, what is your authority to decide what the "right thing" is?
3) As individuals, should what any of us want be allowed to force the Board, IG heads or anyone to "stand up and do the right thing (in their/your opinion)?"

On a completely different front, I thank Bill Grumbine for his comments about rudeness of Board members. Probably none of this thread would have been written if I had been treated with a speck of respect. I remind you that I wrote specifically about the positive way in which Al Hockenbery treated me. I also had a nice conversation with Frank Amigo in which no issues came up.

One more question, what would "a speck of respect" have been, capitulation to your demands/authority, would board member(s) have been "rude" if you had been willing to take no for an answer?
I wasn't there, but even now, your retelling and telling suggest an authority, vested in you, that I don't recognize.
If I'm misunderstanding this, I apologize.

 

[C Edward Moore]

Respect or Common Courtesy

George,

When I referred to respect I was referring to the respect that I show to any human being. However, a better choice of words might have been "common courtesy". The proper response to my query of the Board member was, "Ed, I'm sorry, but it's too late to do anything now." or something equivalent to this. Nothing I had said involved emotion, I was sort of giving a "heads up", BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO BE HELPFUL. A smile and "Do the best you can." would have been fine, but I received an "attitude" instead.

This matter is behind me and I really don't care to hear any more about it. It's over and I have better things to do. And it's not your job to question my "authority". I ran an evening program for the AAW, it was successful, the problem that I was worried about did not materialize, so this is all folderal. It has about the same value as a can of condensed weasel urine. 🙄

 

[Brujo]

I don't want to see ANY politics in the IG. People may post what they want on the walls outside the IG, thereby exercising the right to free speech, but inside should be WOODTURNING and nothing else.

Easy enough.

Should I assume you also want to see no religious symbols or symbolism, no sexual images or images of the human body that could be interpreted as sexual by some, and no symbols of ethnic or national identity i.e. flags, cultural or state symbols? We should also discourage scientific symbolism as well, so no e=mC2 and definitely no pierced images of Darwin. Does this about cover it all?

Actually now that I think about it, we better discourage all representations of nature since there are many cultures on this planet that considers it a "sin" to re-create the work of god.

That should cover it.

This message was brought to you by the ministry of conformance. Please report to the ministry of love for re-education.

 

[Marc Ruby]

Actually, I think most woodturning clubs came into existence as a growing group of friends, often centered on a store, who shared a common interest. Woodturning has been around for a few thousand years and our clubbishness is notorious. In fact, to the point, I know of few cases (none, actually) where the AAW has fomented the creation of a turners club, but many cases where considerable pressure has been exerted to get an existing club to go members only. For most of us the AAW is an organization most visible as a nice but pricey magazine that is only available by subscription or in classy woodworking stores. Which is cool, but a little humility is needed. Fine Woodworking has always had intermittent articles on turning.

'By supporting the AAW...' I'm not, exactly - I'm supporting me. And I'm supporting a vision of woodturning shared or supported, hopefully, by the membership. At the point that our views diverge, supporting the AAW is shooting myself in the foot. As long as there is a healthy amount of real turning knowledge here there isn't a problem. But I've read through a number of issues where I really had to look to figure out how turning had anything to do with it. Why would I want to support that trend? My biggest influence here is my membership, I need to vote with that. It's been a long time since I've seen an article in the Journal about turning thin walled vessels, or avoiding tear-out, or... Well, you get my drift.

Last, you describe a procession of skill building and posit it as good. And that's hardly the only possible path. I could make pens, bowls, and vessels happily for the rest of my life. I may choose many ways of ornamenting the turning, but it would never become the whole purpose of the work. Let's face it, cabinetry is also woodcarving. Except if you wander over to a woodcarver's forum. The reason for organizations around specific disciplines is to focus on the health of those disciplines, not to morph into the next hot thing. I do other forms of woodwork and I belong to those organizations as well.

 

[C Edward Moore]

Brujo,

Your attempts at extrapolation and reducto ad absurdum fall short. Your attack demeans this forum and the efforts of some to improve things.

 

[john lucas]

Marc I still respectfully disagree on the club thing. We have very few woodworking stores in Tennessee. Only in the major cities. We started with one woodturning club 21 years ago. There are now 7, all across the state an 4 are in small areas without woodworking stores. They were formed by friends who were turners getting together but many were formed by AAW members who joined the first club or went to symposiums organized by the first club and learned about other turners in their area. I'm not saying that's the only way they got started I'm just saying the AAW has opened up an awareness of woodturning making it easier for people to know we exist. I mean we are discussing this on their website aren't we. That's advertising. It brings in members and helps us find other woodturners.
Not everyone finds it necessary to follow the progression that I mentioned. some branch out and make pens, some do segmented work and some do ornamental work etc. I don't try to stop people from displaying that work so why would I stop them from displaying embellished work. I also do cabinet work and have used the router for years. It was a natural step for me to use the router on my turnings. Now if I didn't use the lathe at all I would not put it in the instant gallery.

 

[KurtB]

Politics

Ok, let's ease up a little bit guys. This discussion has been a good give and take on both sides of the issue. Why don't we continue with the idea that we can agree to disagree....

 

[Mark Mandell]

I specifically said that I didn't want ANY politics in the IG, and I don't.

And THAT, "Perfessor," is a Zero-Sum game. Whether you demand one piece be removed or all such pieces be excluded, it amounts to the precisely the same thing. Don't "spin" your opinion after the fact. You first premise asserted that the piece was an affront to service personnel and others who have served, and you were indignant that you had to confront such "statements" in the Instant Gallery. Proposed limits on freedom of speech and expression have taken many forms, the most common being that the particular speech or expression is offensive to some perceived community norm.

If the issue of the freedom of the IG is of sufficient weight to you, you have the right to not go there or not join the organization that purports to support that freedom. Make no mistake, I'm not encouraging you or anyone to drop out of the AAW. What I am saying, however, is if there must be a choice between your "right" not to be assailed by political/religious/sexual content in public places you choose to go and my right to put such things in the IG even if they offend you and 90% of the other people in the room, I win, because my right to say it is greater than your right not to hear it. If it were otherwise, the silence in our society would be deafening, and the hundreds of thousands of valiant men and women who have given their lives for this country and the world at large over the last 240 years may have been given in vain.

What you do have the greater right to is prior notice that the Instant Gallery may contain items and messages that are or may be offensive to you so that you can make an intelligent choice whether to go there. Well Ed, as the lawyers say, "Consider yourself on notice."

What you also have the right to do is form a new association of woodturners with your same view who then set the limits for what will and will not be allowed in your symposium gallery. Maybe that group will grow to mega-size, dwarfing the AAW. Maybe it will gather only micro group of malcontents interested only is dissing things they don't agree with while mumbling that God is really on their side. Maybe something in between those obvious extremes.

I express no opinion on which result in more likely.

The tone and content of this post have been properly objected to by members. The reader is respectfully referred to a follow-up posting at the following link
http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?p=39429#post39429