First there were laminated bowls, then there were hollow forms.........

[Doug Rasmussen]

Don, you do the tapered staves on a 3 axis router with a 4th axis add on, at least I would. Seems like most of the common CNC routers offer the 4th axis option in the under $500 range. I'm not into the current pricing of the better quality hobby CNC's. I would bet though a complete router with 4th axis would be substantially less than a top of the line wood lathe.

The tapered stave could also be done on a basic 3 axis router. Create a 3D model of the stave and let your CAM software determine the cutter paths. I don't like that way because to get smooth glue surfaces you need small step overs in the cutter path which take a long time.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Back at the birth in 2022 of the Ornamental Turning section here when CNC issue was broached I was not a proponent of mixing the two and said so. Being a human being with a brain that remembers and can look back on decisions made one can change their mind about things. For many years when I started woodturning there was nothing but that woodturning was a lathe and a turning tool nothing else. Well after a while it's not hard to figure that it can be a lot more than that. It is a wide open category now with so many options to create so much in addition to the lathe. There is room in this hobby for everything, not a thing wrong with round and brown but the same goes for using anything else to enhance. You can love it or hate it, take it or leave it but it is here to stay and I'm sure it will go farther. The older I get the more I want to do as an addition to my woodturning. My Rose Engine, my lasers and my CNC are all going to enhance my woodturning with the only bad thing is that there are not enough hours in the day to learn and to play. So for me it is bring it on I welcome it all!

 

[Kevin Jenness]

There are a lot of problems with doing many of the things that the novice think can be done with a CNC machine. Most of what they think can be done could be if you had enough money to buy the machine with the bells & whistles to accomplish it.

Quite aside from the expense of a 4 or 5 axis router is the extensive training in 3d design, learning the foibles of a CAM program and controller and learning how to hold and machine the work without breaking things. Once mastered, those skills and the right machinery can produce amazingly intricate and precise objects. I'm sure CNC methods will become more widely used by a segment of the woodturning community, but it does distance the maker from the material in a way that will not appeal to everyone.

 

[Paul Paukstelis]

I've spent the last couple years designing a bolt-on CNC for the woodlathe. This is not something that is intended for creating bowls, as Odie and others have pointed out, that takes away the handcrafted element that I think is important (and greatly enjoy). Instead, it is a machine that is intended for doing many different kinds of embellishments and can replace many of the jigs that people create to perform specific tasks. You can follow the evolution and get a sense for what it can do here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/BG8NHAd63CduHQvdA

Technically, it is a 4-axis CNC but it has a huge advantage over the traditional 3-axis CNC with the added rotary: you can also rotate the tool to bring it normal to any position on the workpiece. This lets you do things you would never be able to do with a 3+1 CNC.

I do plan on making the plans completely open-source, so anyone can build one themselves. In the next 6 months or so I will also have kits and fully-built versions for sale. It uses 100% free software

 

[hockenbery]

can follow the evolution and get a sense for what it can do here

Quite impressive! Thanks for sharing the link.
Your Celtic sailors knot particularly caught my attention I’ve used a similar variation in sandcarving
You’re getting much more relief.
.

 

[John K Jordan]

the only bad thing is that there are not enough hours in the day to learn and to play.

Or as one gets older, the bad thing slowly changes into "there are not enough YEARS in the life to learn and play."
Whatever we choose to do, have as much fun as often and as long as we can! And share as much joy with as many other people as possible!

I personally have never been attracted to those electronic and computer-controlled CNC things but support those who are. (I even gave away my "additive" computer-controlled machine, a 3D printer.)

My personal goal remains: learn to use and improve control of those tool thingies held by hand against the wood as it goes round and round.
I'm even passing on my Jamison hollowing system, Baxter threading jig, and Vermec sphere jig.

JKJ

 

[Jim Grieco]

I do plan on making the plans completely open-source, so anyone can build one themselves. In the next 6 months or so I will also have kits and fully-built versions for sale. It uses 100% free software

That setup is amazing with the things you can do with it. Very interested when you are ready to share!

 

[Paul Paukstelis]

Quite impressive! Thanks for sharing the link.
Your Celtic sailors knot particularly caught my attention I’ve used a similar variation in sandcarving
You’re getting much more relief.
View attachment 67631. View attachment 67632

That is one I want to re-explore, as it was done in the pretty early days. I've streamlined a lot of things since then that allows more intricate work. This includes starting from a 3D model, as opposed to a 2D drawing.

 

[Paul Paukstelis]

Quite aside from the expense of a 4 or 5 axis router is the extensive training in 3d design, learning the foibles of a CAM program and controller and learning how to hold and machine the work without breaking things. Once mastered, those skills and the right machinery can produce amazingly intricate and precise objects. I'm sure CNC methods will become more widely used by a segment of the woodturning community, but it does distance the maker from the material in a way that will not appeal to everyone.

This was a big consideration when I was developing my machine. I put a lot of time into the software side to make as simple as possible. For doing inlays (like pockets for pewa), it is as simple as measuring the diameter at the center of the cut site, selecting a shape from a library of templates, setting the cutter normal to the cut site, then clicking Run. The good thing is that you can use any typical 3-axis CAM software to generate Gcode, so those with some CAD/CAM experience can easily create their own templates (and it pretty easy to learn the basic to reach that point). Of course, the more complex the project, the complex the software solutions have to be create toolpaths.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

This was a big consideration when I was developing my machine. I put a lot of time into the software side to make as simple as possible. For doing inlays (like pockets for pewa), it is as simple as measuring the diameter at the center of the cut site, selecting a shape from a library of templates, setting the cutter normal to the cut site, then clicking Run. The good thing is that you can use any typical 3-axis CAM software to generate Gcode, so those with some CAD/CAM experience can easily create their own templates (and it pretty easy to learn the basic to reach that point). Of course, the more complex the project, the complex the software solutions have to be create toolpaths.

That's a very clever approach. I was thinking more along the lines of Nicholas Berchtold's work- 20 years of 3D modeling and what looks like a 5 axis router to produce his sculptural work- but using a 3 axis system to do embellishments on hand-turned work is far simpler yet opens up considerable new territory.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Quite aside from the expense of a 4 or 5 axis router is the extensive training in 3d design, learning the foibles of a CAM program and controller and learning how to hold and machine the work without breaking things. Once mastered, those skills and the right machinery can produce amazingly intricate and precise objects. I'm sure CNC methods will become more widely used by a segment of the woodturning community, but it does distance the maker from the material in a way that will not appeal to everyone.

Some hobby CNC's come with Vectric software. Vectric is oriented to beginners and also serves more advanced users. It's well supported for even 4th axis work at a low price.

High end CAD/CAM is incredibly expensive with a matching price tag and learning curve, not really needed for most hobby type work.

 

[Darryl Fective]

i was hoping to create a non-CNC setup using stepper motors; one to sense the rotation of the spindle then one to out put to a different motor to move proportionally to the spindle rotation. (like to create a curved router path. Arduino programming is more than I want to get into at the moment, though.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I've spent the last couple years designing a bolt-on CNC for the woodlathe. This is not something that is intended for creating bowls, as Odie and others have pointed out, that takes away the handcrafted element that I think is important (and greatly enjoy). Instead, it is a machine that is intended for doing many different kinds of embellishments and can replace many of the jigs that people create to perform specific tasks. You can follow the evolution and get a sense for what it can do here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/BG8NHAd63CduHQvdA

Technically, it is a 4-axis CNC but it has a huge advantage over the traditional 3-axis CNC with the added rotary: you can also rotate the tool to bring it normal to any position on the workpiece. This lets you do things you would never be able to do with a 3+1 CNC.

I do plan on making the plans completely open-source, so anyone can build one themselves. In the next 6 months or so I will also have kits and fully-built versions for sale. It uses 100% free software

Paul, that's an incredibly impressive piece of work. It looks like you're using quality components. A wild guess is it'll cost more than a basic 4 axis CNC Shark machine from Woodcraft. Estimated cost?

Other than making the cutter normal to the work I don't see anything I can't do on my 4 axis machine (mine is a knee mill which gives me more Z axis than most routers). Generally if possible I try not to use ball nose cutters normal anyway because of the dead zone at the center.

Looking carefully at your pictures it doesn't appear it does v-carving for inlays, pewa inserts and text. That can also be useful for chip carving among other things. Picture shows a v-carve inlay of ebony into an unknow very hard wool Notice the sharp points.

 

[Paul Paukstelis]

Paul, that's an incredibly impressive piece of work. It looks like you're using quality components. A wild guess is it'll cost more than a basic 4 axis CNC Shark machine from Woodcraft. Estimated cost?

Other than making the cutter normal to the work I don't see anything I can't do on my 4 axis machine (mine is a knee mill which gives me more Z axis than most routers). Generally if possible I try not to use ball nose cutters normal anyway because of the dead zone at the center.

Looking carefully at your pictures it doesn't appear it does v-carving for inlays, pewa inserts and text. That can also be useful for chip carving among other things. Picture shows a v-carve inlay of ebony into an unknow very hard wool Notice the sharp points.

View attachment 67653

Thanks, Doug! The silver one you see in most of the pictures has high quality components (Parker linear axes with ball screws, linear rails). I got most of those parts from next to a dumpster, so the cost to me was...negligible. That was the first iteration, but as you note, using those components would cost quite a lot. As primarily an engraving machine (minimal cutting forces) that is bolting onto the lathe, it doesn't actually need quite the amount of rigidity I get from the nice components, so I settled on using OpenBuilds based C-beam extrusions for the linear axes. Right now, these use V-slot wheels on the gantry, but the next iteration will use linear guide rails. Those versions you'll see in a few shots with black aluminum extrusions. There are a number of trade-offs but some big advantages to that system as well (cost being the large one). The OpenBuilds version BOM is around $800.

Putting the cutter normal to the work is the magic sauce, though. If the cutter can reach it, I can cut the exact same pocket anywhere on a bowl (bottom, side, rim, even the inside) using the exact same starting gcode. I just have to account for the diameter at the cut site and the tool rotation, and my custom gcode sender will do all the coordinate transformations on the fly. Effectively, you end up cutting into a plane normal to the cut site. I have worked it out so you can even cut the pockets with flat bottoms (adds extra Z-depth at the cut origin) to fit inlays that are cut out on a 3-axis CNC/laser. Unless you have a very unique 4-axis mill I am not aware of, having the tool orthogonal to the rotary axis won't allow you to make those cuts at any arbitrary position on the work piece.

The machine is fully capable of V-carving. You can use any 3-axis gcode and the software I've worked on will convert Y movements to A rotations (based on diameter) and will alter X and Z coordinates based on tool rotation (B axis angle). I've found V-carving in curved surfaces much trickier than doing it on flat pieces, because since you are working in a plane, the work piece falls away where you have most of the v-carving (edges). The only real solution is to make deeper cuts, which isn't always an option. EDIT: Or use specialized software (GrblGru) which can do this.

It doesn't end there though. Obviously, lots of laser possibilities, and there are some photos/videos of thread cutting, which is the latest thing I've added. You just put in the parameters and it writes the gcode for you:

That's probably more info than most others care about! I'd love to chat more about it in direct messages, or if anyone is interested, I have a Discord server where I am providing support (right now it is just for the couple of people that are Beta testing machines).

Join the LatheEngraver Support Discord Server!

Check out the LatheEngraver Support community on Discord - hang out with 6 other members and enjoy free voice and text chat.

discord.gg

 

[Jim Grieco]

i was hoping to create a non-CNC setup using stepper motors; one to sense the rotation of the spindle then one to out put to a different motor to move proportionally to the spindle rotation. (like to create a curved router path. Arduino programming is more than I want to get into at the moment, though.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but take a look.

Jeff's Turned Wood

Jeff Salter wood tuning, decorative wooden vessels and solid shell drums. Spiral woodturning instructional dvd

jeffsturnedwood.com

 

[David Croxton]

Evolution of o turning subjects is an interesting subject.

I think of teapots as sort of a narrow interest object and relatively few AAW members have tried one.
I think tea pots got publicized with several POP shows requiring teapot entries.

I’m amazed at the numbers of folks doing basket of illusion. It has mushroomed in popularity in recent years.
Hollow forms have been a mainstay for many turners for 25-30 years.


In 2016 AAW survey the members. The first two charts allow multiple entries and show that AAWMembers had multiple interests.
View attachment 67463 View attachment 67464View attachment 67465

For me, if I see something that interests me, I will try making it. For whatever reason, I seem drawn to learning to create things that are decorative or embellished in some fashion.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I personally have never been attracted to those electronic and computer-controlled CNC things but support those who are. (I even gave away my "additive" computer-controlled machine, a 3D printer.)

My personal goal remains: learn to use and improve control of those tool thingies held by hand against the wood as it goes round and round.
I'm even passing on my Jamison hollowing system, Baxter threading jig, and Vermec sphere jig.

John that's funny as one of my new toys is a 3D printer and most mornings it's chugging away while I'm here. Have made a lot of things with it for the CNC to be used with the woodturning and for woodturning. I also have passed on my big hollowing system and my Vermec but there is no way I can give up my Baxters

 

[Curt Fuller]

Quite a few years back, 20 or so, I joined a woodturning forum that was all about pure woodturning. I don't recall the name but it was for purely turned things with no embellishment whatsoever. I learned pretty quickly that it was far too restrictive for me. Now that it looks like CNC turning is going to become a "thing" I realize that there will be no limit to what can be done with a piece of wood. Add 3D printing to that and the possibilities are endless. I'm anxious to see what can be done by people with more brain power than I have. But the key is "people". I think it would be a shame to let AI sneak into the process even though I know it will happen (and probably already has).

 

[hockenbery]

a woodturning forum that was all about pure woodturning.

I remember one spin off that required half the work be done on the lathe. It ended as people began to realize how little time many items spent on the lathe.

A 50% lathe time eliminated things most folks considered as “pure”. Some examples
Most pens, pepper mills, glue ups,
Many NE bowls, boxes, ornaments, weed pots, bottle stoppers, platters,

 

[Dave Landers]

I remember one spin off that required half the work be done on the lathe. It ended as people began to realize how little time many items spent on the lathe.

And who volunteered to be "percentage police"

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Wood is not the only thing you can easily do with a CNC router.

Shown is metal forming in copper. Picture shows a formed hemisphere. The part was done by screwing down a flat copper piece to a piece of wood with a hole in the center. Instead of a cutter in the machine spindle I use a jeweler's dapping punch with a domed end. Create a cutter path as if you you were cutting wood. The punch forms the metal. The function of the screws is to keep the metal from buckling during forming. The forming pressures aren't any more than you have in cutting hardwood. The "cutter" does not have to rotate, a bit of oil for lubrication on the metal helps. Things like a metal embellishment on a wood picture frame can work well. Copper is readily available so is a good choice. A home made plating tank can silver plate it if wanted.

In a light duty CNC router it might be best to make a holder for the forming tool in place of the spindle motor so as not to put the load on the bearings and possibly damage them.

This is not metal spinning since in this method the tool only passes over an area once. And unlike metal spinning there will be thinning of the metal.

This is the cutter path used for the hemisphere.



This is the copper dome which was used in a combined wood, metal and glass lighting fixture. Pretty much any shape can be done to embellish a piece. As shown the part is upside down giving a convex dome rather than the concave as formed..

 

[Wyatt Holm]

I operate a cnc router for my job. I have no intention of getting a cnc lathe or using it in my turning. I will stay a traditional wood turner. Good figured wood and simple forms. Trends will come and go. Supposedly a turned bowl is the oldest item ever found by archeological finds of something made with a machine. It was several thousand years old.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

I operate a cnc router for my job. I have no intention of getting a cnc lathe or using it in my turning. I will stay a traditional wood turner. Good figured wood and simple forms. Trends will come and go. Supposedly a turned bowl is the oldest item ever found by archeological finds of something made with a machine. It was several thousand years old.

Great post and attitude. I feel the same. Round and brown.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

I operate a cnc router for my job. I have no intention of getting a cnc lathe or using it in my turning. I will stay a traditional wood turner. Good figured wood and simple forms. Trends will come and go. Supposedly a turned bowl is the oldest item ever found by archeological finds of something made with a machine. It was several thousand years old.

The set of nested bowls as shown in his avatar are an example of something impossible to accomplish on a CNC machine.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I operate a cnc router for my job. I have no intention of getting a cnc lathe or using it in my turning. I will stay a traditional wood turner. Good figured wood and simple forms. Trends will come and go. Supposedly a turned bowl is the oldest item ever found by archeological finds of something made with a machine. It was several thousand years old.

Do you mean CNC is a trend?

Can you give more information about the archeological find of the machine made bowl? That must have been quite a shock to the traditional bowl makers of several thousand years ago.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

The set of nested bowls as shown in his avatar are an example of something impossible to accomplish on a CNC machine.

Nope, you're completely wrong about this. I can't say I know of any CNC machines currently doing this, but it would be easy to implement. Use the same basic fixture as traditional turners use powered by a 4th axis.

Are bowl saver devices considered traditional? For that matter how does something become acceptably traditional in woodturning? Can you be a traditional turner if you use a lathe with a VFD? How about laser guided hollowing systems, are they traditional?

 

[Paul Paukstelis]

The set of nested bowls as shown in his avatar are an example of something impossible to accomplish on a CNC machine.

I would edit this to say, not possible on a traditional CNC machine. A CNC machine could certainly be made to create nested bowls. Would someone want to do that? I'm not sure. I think to some level the people that dislike the idea of using CNC in woodturning think that it is "push go, creates a bowl". It isn't like that. For the CNC I've created, you can think of it as a multi-purpose, automated jig that performs tasks that would otherwise require many different tools or jigs to achieve the same functions. Just like a jig, you've got to know what you are doing in order to set it up correctly to achieve a task (that task is just automated).

 

[Wyatt Holm]

CNCs do seem to be a trend, but not necessarily in woodturning. What I see as a trend is more off lathe work, carving, resin, dye etc. If it was a trend when I started back about 06, it would have been natural edge bowls and hollow forms that got me interested in turning.
The archeological find was a turned bowl, possibly made on a spring pole lathe. The lathe in one form or another, is believed to be the oldest machine. I am not saying it was made with a cnc.
Here's more information on the archeological find.

Orkney’s oldest wooden bowl unveiled - Archaeology Orkney

A remarkable, perfectly preserved, wooden bowl unearthed from a two-thousand-year-old well has been revealed during conservation work being undertaken on the artefact this week, and an extraordinary story of ancient repair of the bowl suggests it was a valued object during the Iron Age.

archaeologyorkney.com

 

[Doug Machin]

At what point is it not turning, but sculpture with a turned element. Look at the AAW magazine, I can barely find where something was actually turned.

Not criticizing at all, just observing.

 

[Michael Anderson]

At what point is it not turning, but sculpture with a turned element. Look at the AAW magazine, I can barely find where something was actually turned.

Not criticizing at all, just observing.

I think that's a bit hyperbolic to say you can barely find where something was actually turned, haha. But, I get the sentiment. I think sculpture is an appropriate higher-order category that encompasses all turnings, as well as embellished turning (carved, etc...).

 

[Bill Blasic]

Whether you like it or not CNC is here and is going to stay just as carving, dyeing, burning etc. have all enhanced woodturning. Thanks to minds greater than mine I'm sitting straight up and riding it right into the future.