Advise sought on liability

[Charles Hamilton]

Hi All,

I am new to the forum and having posted in the Introductions. But, to set the stage for this post, I am working on some bowls and platters, most of which I plan to sell or otherwise part with. My wife and I were having a conversation about food safe finishes, and that quickly went into liability in the event someone becomes ill after eating from a bowl I made. Sorry for bringing this topic up, but it seems important. I would like to hear from you, especially those of you who sell, how you have dealt with this topic. For instance, do you have insurance? If so, what type of coverage, and from who? On things like food safe finish, do you use commercial finishes? And, do you get the documentation from the supplier to back up the claim of food safety? These are things of concern to me. Anyway, if you have advice, please share it. Just a bit about me, I am retired, I work out of my home, and I have to be mindful of a budget.

Thanks,
Chuck Hamilton

 

[Russell Nugent]

There's a ton of threads on this that you'll be able to find with the search function.
There's a million and three opinions on the topic. I generally use something like tried and true danish oil. Supposedly food safe. I sell a few bowls now and then but if I had to consider carrying insurance to protect myself I think I'd just quit.
According to the wood biologist Dr Seri Robinson there is no food safe finish. Any finish you use will be able to trap bacteria in the wood and nullify the natural microbe killing property of wood.
I tend to avoid anything film finish for utility items, it's going to look like crap after a few uses.

 

[Janet Dillon]

This is a really good question. I'm also new to the forum, so I haven't had the chance to explore the hundreds of topics supported here. But I'll be heading to the search engine to find more on this topic.

 

[Darryl Fective]

I wouldn't worry about it. Once cured, all finishes are food-safe.

 

[Charles Hamilton]

Thank you for your replies. I read the article by Seri Robinson, which is in the November/December 2024 issue of Fine Woodworking. So, very recent. Basically, she says the best finish may be no finish at all. She gives the scientific reasoning behind it. That's helpful. She also points out various wood species that are suitable for food use, mostly lighter woods like maple and birch, which we have plenty of here in the Pacific Northwest. Anyway, it's a good read.

Thanks again,
Chuck

 

[Doug Freeman]

According to the FDA curing finishes, like oil, poly, lacquer etc are food safe when cured. That is your “insurance coverage”. The sniff test is good for knowing if the finish is cured.

For anything where metal utensils will be used, I use an oil finish as it cures soft and wont look as bad after use. All other food contact items I use ply thinned 1:1, flood on, keep wet 20-30 minutes, dry off.

This is worth reading:

Flexner on Finishing: The Folly of Food-Safe Finishes Digital Download

Flexner on Finishing: The Folly of Food-Safe Finishes Digital Download

store.popularwoodworking.com

 

[Brian Nowak-Thompson]

The notion of a food safe finish has become “valid” simply through insinuation and repetition. If one finish is food safe, then the others must not be, and if you see it often enough, you begin to think there must be some merit to the claim. The reality is no manufacturer goes to the expense of testing for food safety of their products unless required by law (like automobile standards or pharmaceuticals). There is no legal "food safe" definition other than some 'generally accepted' guidelines for food safe finishes outlined by the FDA. These boil down to,

1. Any resinous or polymeric coating applied over a suitable substrate (i.e. wood, metal, plastic)
2. Cured by oxidation, polymerization, condensation or cross-linking without oxidation
3. Made from ingredients generally regarded as safe in food
4. Or made from a list of ingredients (about 15 pages long) usually used in making resinous or polymeric coatings

The problem in deciphering these regulations is that you have to have some chemical background to understand the terms and how they are used. For example, despite the name polyurethane is not made from urethane monomers. Any wood finish that falls within the generally accepted guidelines for food safety is considered “food-safe”. Doug's sniff test if really the only insurance you need.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Charles, tell them what the finish is but make no claims at all about being food safe. When you say something “is”, it can bite you. I have never heard of anyone making making a claim against a turner but…

 

[Charles Hamilton]

Thanks all. I'll read the Flexner article mentioned, mainly for my own edification. And, to Jerry's point, I won't make any claims about food safety. I'll simply say what the bowl, platter, etc. is made of, and what the finish is. That's what I've done all along.

Chuck

 

[Kevin Jenness]

If you are in business it is a good idea to have insurance. Talk to your lawyer and an independent insurance agent to see what your exposure is and how to mitigate it. Lawsuits for illness from ingesting "unsafe" finishes used on bowls are probably the very least issue a turner would have to worry about. If a customer trips and breaks a leg on your property with only homeowners' insurance, or a child pulls down your craft show display on its head, now you should be worried.

 

[Greg Carles]

I would think some of the professional wood turners who make a living at this would be a good source for your question.
Say for instance Richard Raffin , Glen Lucas, Mike Mahoney etc... From what I understand is these turners have made a living off of selling their wood turnings. Probably a touchy subject though.
JMO.
I would also be interested on what they would have to say.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

Thinking about liability can drive one batty. If you have enough assets to make it worthwhile for someone to sue you then you need to talk with both a lawyer and insurance agent. You'll need both general business liability (for when someone trips over your power cord or drops your display on themselves) and product liability for when someone claims your bowl poisoned them. You should probably also form your business as at least an LLC, if not a corporation (hence the conversation with the lawyer).

If you're fortunate enough to have enough assets to be worth suing you might want to reconsider selling your work; unless you are very good and/or prolific giving it away may well cost you much less and your personal liability umbrella coverage will protect you at a fraction of the cost.

Or, you could just not worry about it, which is going to work almost all the time. I suspect the risk of a product liability suit is so low that it makes little sense to purchase that expensive coverage. Business liability at something like $1000/year is more likely to be needed and worthwhile-- and may well be required by event organizers if you're doing events like craft shows.

 

[Greg Carles]

unless you are very good and/or prolific giving it away may well cost you much less and your personal liability umbrella coverage will protect you at a fraction of the cost.

After researching this subject I found even if you give away your items (except to family, one would think it would be OK?) you are still subject to law suits.
I frown on signing any of my work for that reason, it ties you to the piece with a signature. This may be petty but when it comes to settlements, you can't deny it if you signed it pretty much.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

How about a warning label on your turnings similar to what's required in California:
"This product contains chemicals that may cause cancer, birth defects, reproductive harm, etc, etc".

A sad thing about the legal system is anybody can sue anybody for any reason. And if you are sued you have to defend yourself by hiring a lawyer no matter how silly the case against you might be.

My experience has been if you need to hire a lawyer go with an older experienced one. Do not hire a young aggressive lawyer who will want to get into court and strut his stuff. The older ones are more likely to pursue mediation. As our lawyer told me in my first lawsuit, we don't want to go to court because you can never predict with any certainty how a jury will rule.

 

[Chris Lawrence]

If your a member of the AAW you can get discounted liability insurance that is tailored for turners through them. They use Hartford insurance for the policy.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

I am a retired attorney and there is no way to "fool proof" your sales because nature will create a more clever fool. I have done products liability cases for many years. If you are in the business of selling a consumer products, the law of nearly every state imposes strict liability for injuries in the foreseeable use of the product. In practicality, the chances of a lawsuit are slim if the Plaintiff's lawyer sees no deep pocket. A lawyer isn't going to waste his time going after an individual for an uncollectible judgement. However, the cost of an individual defending himself is taken by the insurance company if a person does have liability insurance. There is no magic phrase or warning that can be a 100% safeguard. One of the most bizarre cases I ever heard of was a fellow selling tobacco pipes that he made from wood he thought was a "briar bush stem" and turned out to be poison ivy. As a law clerk many years ago, I worked on cases, that I thought were outlandish and far fetched and juries had no problem with liability. One was the use of clear plastic hangers in a department store with terrazzo floors.. the evidence, a photograph of a hanger laying on the bright white terrazzo floor almost impossible to detect. Heck, Lowes and Home Depot were both recently sued in consumer actions because a 2x4 does not measure 2 inches x 4 inches. Some thing I learned in 6th grade, In another, a farmer got his old tractor stuck in the mud with the rear wheels spinning. He chained a log to each rear wheels, revved up the engine and left out the clutch, where upon the tractor flipped over backwards killing him. The family sued the manufacturer. How that was a foreseeable use was beyond me. Even a finish from a quality company that mistakenly has lead or some other deleterious substance, can result in liability against the bowl maker and the finish manufacturer.

I had a photograph of a Chinese made cutting board. One the label, Clearly labeled a cutting board, but a big warning "Not to be used in contact with food" ????

If you sell many bowls for food use, I would suggest liability insurance. If you sell only a few a years, the risk is minimal. If you sell bowls as "nut bowls" or for use with dry items only, there is little chance of an injury. Or just don't sell bowls. I sell decorative bowls, but no food bowls, and at that very few of those. There are lots of other items to sell that people do not use with food.

 

[Ed Sandle]

After reading that legal advice, it sounds like the real problem here is lawyers, not the finish you put on a bowl.
This topic has been coming up since the beginning of time, well at least as far back as I can remember, and probably before that and I've been at this a long time.
It usually is brought up by somewhat new turners and rightfully so I guess, but I never seem to hear a long term woodturner bring it up or worry about it.
Not really sure how many turners are actually making bowls to be eating out of for sale on a regular basis, Mike Mahoney comes to mind, and he sells an oil specifically for that that states it is totally food safe. Whether it is or not who knows, but at least you would be using a commercial product advertised as food safe.
It has to be a small percentage of the woodturning market actually using bowls to eat out of. Some do for personal use I guess but that doesn't count here.
Besides I have never heard of a turner being sued by someone eating out of a wood turned bowl. My opinion, just use an oil finish that doesn't have a surface film and if you do get sued say you have no idea what they have put on or in it after it was sold. I really think this is a non issue as long as you stay away from a film finish as once a user has used it, who is to say what they put on it.
Mahoney's statement,
What makes my Utility oil better than other oil finishes? My Utility finish is 100% high linoleic acid walnut oil, completely natural and food safe. There are no chemical driers. The oil has been heat-treated to make the oil dry faster and to remove any possible allergens. Linoleic acid is a particular acid that is naturally found in walnut oil. It is a stabilizing agent that makes the oil’s shelf life longer than other natural oils.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

After reading that legal advice, it sounds like the real problem here is lawyers, not the finish you put on a bowl.
This topic has been coming up since the beginning of time, well at least as far back as I can remember, and probably before that and I've been at this a long time.
It usually is brought up by somewhat new turners and rightfully so I guess, but I never seem to hear a long term woodturner bring it up or worry about it.
Not really sure how many turners are actually making bowls to be eating out of for sale on a regular basis, Mike Mahoney comes to mind, and he sells an oil specifically for that that states it is totally food safe. Whether it is or not who knows, but at least you would be using a commercial product advertised as food safe.
It has to be a small percentage of the woodturning market actually using bowls to eat out of. Some do for personal use I guess but that doesn't count here.
Besides I have never heard of a turner being sued by someone eating out of a wood turned bowl. My opinion, just use an oil finish that doesn't have a surface film and if you do get sued say you have no idea what they have put on or in it after it was sold. I really think this is a non issue as long as you stay away from a film finish as once a user has used it, who is to say what they put on it.
Mahoney's statement,
What makes my Utility oil better than other oil finishes? My Utility finish is 100% high linoleic acid walnut oil, completely natural and food safe. There are no chemical driers. The oil has been heat-treated to make the oil dry faster and to remove any possible allergens. Linoleic acid is a particular acid that is naturally found in walnut oil. It is a stabilizing agent that makes the oil’s shelf life longer than other natural oils.

You are partially correct about lawyers. OTH, I had a client that had his face gashed open when the slide of a brand new semi automatic pistol flew 30 inches back on the very first shot. He needed surgical reconstruction in 3 separate stages and still had a permanent facial palsy that severely affected his speech. The pistol was made in Montana and within 40 days on the market had injured 4 other people and by the 60th day was recalled by the maker. Obviously the design and/or materials were not fit for the intended use and there was a breach of the warranty of fitness as well as strict liability in tort. Decades ago, the chief partner at the firm where I worked, purchased a brand new Caddy Allante. He was driving home from the dealership and when he got off the highway and came down the ramp to a stop sign, the brake pedal went all the way to the floor and the car did not stop. (less than 15 miles on the car.) no collision occurred, but the car was parked on the side of the road for the dealership to retrieve and the purchase rescinded Those were clear cases of deadly defects and required no stretch of the imagination to see liability. The firm also had a case in which a hunter shot his brand new cross bow. The fore stock grip allowed three finger tips of the left hand to be above the stock in the path of the bow string. He lost two of the three finger tips. An extra half inch of wood on the fore stock would have prevented the injury. There were several other injuries and the cross bows were recalled and retro fitted with a barrier to keep the fingers out of the path of the bow string. What the company did not know, is they hired our client's employer to design the retrofit, and sent letters acknowledging the dangerous condition. and still sold the cross bows for another few weeks. Not all my cases were so clear cut, but most were the result of lack of communications between communication between company personnel. Mismatching threads that permitted an acid pump to fly apart and spray acid., using a plastic headed bolt on out door equipment when the plastic was known to disintegrate from ultraviolet light from the sun. That was a large company that ended up in bankruptcy over saving 11 cents per unit over the cost of a all metal bolt. People died as a result.

 

[Doug Freeman]

@Perry Hilbert I have a question, I’m not familiar enough if our legal system. For these liability cases, is there are review of evidence etc that occurs before a suit can proceed? A lot of the cases, even some where the injured does win, seem to be ludicrous to my mind and should not be allowed to proceed. I don’t blame lawyers, they have to play by the rules. I see a “rules problem”. Juries can be overly sympathetic IMO. Personal responsibility doesn’t seem to exist when it comes to injury lawsuits.

 

[Paul Durden]

Sad but true commentary to the world we live in. Made me think of some ice cream I really enjoyed. We have a mom/pop dairy farm operation nearby that sells ice cream that might be made from unpasteurized milk. It was labeled "not for human consumption", but I will tell you- it tasted unbelievably good. Yes I read the label, caveat emptor, and all that-and I made my choice. In my mind I assumed the liability, so any theoretical illness would have been on me. With woodturning, I've never sold anything I made, but if I did, I think mineral oil/beeswax for a bowl that might hold food is about as innocuous as you can get? I'd lean in that direction, plus probably carry an umbrella liability policy in case someone cut up the bowl into little chunks and ate it (because voices in their head told them to do so), thus becoming ill or dead. To carry it a step further, still woodworking though, it is beyond my understanding how someone removes the blade guard and riving knife from a table saw, sustain an injury in use and manages to sue a manufacturer, in spite of their actions contradicting the manufacturers own instructions for safe use. SMH

 

[Perry Hilbert]

@Perry Hilbert I have a question, I’m not familiar enough if our legal system. For these liability cases, is there are review of evidence etc that occurs before a suit can proceed? A lot of the cases, even some where the injured does win, seem to be ludicrous to my mind and should not be allowed to proceed. I don’t blame lawyers, they have to play by the rules. I see a “rules problem”. Juries can be overly sympathetic IMO. Personal responsibility doesn’t seem to exist when it comes to injury lawsuits.

There are several legal grounds on which liability can arise. 1. negligence, the reasonable person standard. Would a person do or refrain from doing an act under the circumstances. Wiring a receptacle your self and failing to connect the ground wire, resulting in electrocuting a guest. 2. Gross negligence shooting randomly down city streets. 3. Contractual liability under commercial law, (a warranty of merchantability and or the warranty of fitness for a particular purpose. like purchasing a new car and on the way home from the dealer, the brakes fail and cause and accident. 3 strict liability in tort. This applies when a defect in construction, materials, or design causes injuries. Strict liability applies to makers and sellers who put an item into commerce. It does not matter of the injured person purchased the item from the maker or seller, only that a defect caused the injury. The salad you bought at the market had salmonella and your wife got terribly sick. 4 there is also intentionally causing an injury, but that seldom applies to turning. Each one of these has certain defenses and technical exceptions. For instance blood and blood products used for transfusions. Also some items are inherently dangerous but public policy is that they are more useful to society in proper hands than the danger. Another recently in the news was vaccines. Every vaccine ever given has side effects in at least some people and can cause death in a few. Public policy is that if it saves so many lives, the small number of casualties is out weighed by the few injuries. Just like we could make safer automobiles at great expense or reduce auto deaths completely by outlawing their use. Seat belts save lives, and in rare cases have caused deaths. and injuries. (Had one case in which a collision resulted in the passenger's right breast implant being partially amputated by the edge of the seat belt.)

There are some seldom encountered other types of liability and a host of technicalities that are rarely seen. (liability per se for violating a law enacted to prevent the very act done to cause the injury)

As for turning, is you used antifreeze to keep a green turned bowl from cracking and then sold it for use as a cereal bowl. Or used lead paint. and gave the bowl away, you would still have a negligence liability problem. If you made bowls to sell and sell them, there is a whole new set of liability situations that apply under both the commercial law (warranties) and the strict liability law.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Sad but true commentary to the world we live in. Made me think of some ice cream I really enjoyed. We have a mom/pop dairy farm operation nearby that sells ice cream that might be made from unpasteurized milk. It was labeled "not for human consumption", but I will tell you- it tasted unbelievably good. Yes I read the label, caveat emptor, and all that-and I made my choice. In my mind I assumed the liability, so any theoretical illness would have been on me. With woodturning, I've never sold anything I made, but if I did, I think mineral oil/beeswax for a bowl that might hold food is about as innocuous as you can get? I'd lean in that direction, plus probably carry an umbrella liability policy in case someone cut up the bowl into little chunks and ate it (because voices in their head told them to do so), thus becoming ill or dead. To carry it a step further, still woodworking though, it is beyond my understanding how someone removes the blade guard and riving knife from a table saw, sustain an injury in use and manages to sue a manufacturer, in spite of their actions contradicting the manufacturers own instructions for safe use. SMH

Ever use a chain saw. One with the anti kick back chain or the "he man" chain as my Dad jokingly called them? I cut a lot of wood over the decades and wouldn't ever knowingly go back to the anti kick back chain. In fact, I grind the teeth angle for the type of wood I am cutting. Never had an accident but I expect my using the more aggressive cut is assuming the risk of a kick back injury. I still use a table saw from the 1970's. They didn't have guards or the riving knife when that saw was made. I recently picked up both for the saw, and installed them. Took a lot of aggravation to get accustomed to the new safety of the saw. I have the safety cage for over my larger lathe. I also have a scar from the laceration I got from not using the cage. I installed the cage after the injury, but took it off again because it was constantly in the way. I wear a face mask and separate respirator with oxygen supply now, so a log to the kisser would not be so bad now. .

 

[Paul Durden]

Ever use a chain saw. One with the anti kick back chain or the "he man" chain as my Dad jokingly called them? I cut a lot of wood over the decades and wouldn't ever knowingly go back to the anti kick back chain. In fact, I grind the teeth angle for the type of wood I am cutting. Never had an accident but I expect my using the more aggressive cut is assuming the risk of a kick back injury. I still use a table saw from the 1970's. They didn't have guards or the riving knife when that saw was made. I recently picked up both for the saw, and installed them. Took a lot of aggravation to get accustomed to the new safety of the saw. I have the safety cage for over my larger lathe. I also have a scar from the laceration I got from not using the cage. I installed the cage after the injury, but took it off again because it was constantly in the way. I wear a face mask and separate respirator with oxygen supply now, so a log to the kisser would not be so bad now. .

Woodworking inherently has a degree of danger. Sounds like you're doing what you can to mitigate potential oopsies. I think the old saw without guard or riving knife is in the same league as an older car with no airbags or passive restraint systems-you just be careful as you can, and it should get you where you want to go. I choose to use a table saw with all the safety features and it's only threatened me with potential harm one time, but I was ready. Ripping a 6" wide piece of 2x white oak, and in spite of my riving knife, cut began to pinch closed about halfway, making it really hard to push. Internal stress or funky grain, I don't know. I stopped advancing the cut, hit the off paddle with my knee, waited till the blade stopped and finished with a handsaw. The riving knife did it's job as the cut couldn't close on the blade itself. I didn't have a bandsaw at the time, but that may have been a better option for that first rip, who knows. No problem here with the RAS though: That blade is just waiting for the chance to shoot a splinter into that kid or mom's eye!!! better buy him a red ryder bb gun.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

in the same league as an older car with no airbags or passive restraint systems-you just be careful as you can, and it should get you where you want to go.

Like riding a Harley.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Okay, the AAW provides discounted liability insurance for woodturners. I see videos all the time by turners where a number of OSHA regulations for woodturning/woodworking are violated. Some of these videos are on the AAW site.

It seems an injury caused in a woodturning demonstration would be hard to defend against if there was a clear violation of OSHA.

Maybe Perry or other lawyers here could comment on this.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Osha applies to employees' safety. It does not apply to customers or sole proprietors. However. while the OSHA standards may only apply for employment safety violations, they do provide some guidance as to workplace safety. Frankly, I saw a poster regarding OSHA regs for gardeners using weed wackers and the safety gear, helmets, high steel toe boot with steel tongues, shin guards florescent green suit, fancy goggles sound muffling ear muffs, helmet, arm guards and long gloves made the worker look like an alien space traveler.. OSHA standards are often viewed as over kill for some things. I did use OSHA regs in a premises liability case decades ago, to show that the ladder used by employees and customers was dangerous. But that case settled out of court and we never got to see if a court would accept the same argument. My club has plexiglass safety windows between the lathes and public, but we do allow some of the public to make their own pens, (with hovering assistance.) There are OSHA standards that are just common sense that most people would view as reasonable precautions. (I one knew the owner of an ice rink. Over the entrance to the building as well as the entrance to the rink itself were warnings in about 30 different languages that ice is slippery, and skating can be harmful/dangerous. He also video taped every single public session of skating so he had any falls or incidents on the ice recorded. That was 30 years ago. And he was still sued 3 or 4 times a year. Usually dismissed because he had the evidence of what happened.

Knowing what turners do, you take reasonable precautions for the public's safety. A shield or impact proof window maybe dust collection indoors. Keep sharps out of reach of EVERYBODY Don't sell small toy items that might be be small enough to choke an infant or toddler or that have points that could impale..

 

[Bill Walzer]

There's a ton of threads on this that you'll be able to find with the search function.
There's a million and three opinions on the topic. I generally use something like tried and true danish oil. Supposedly food safe. I sell a few bowls now and then but if I had to consider carrying insurance to protect myself I think I'd just quit.
According to the wood biologist Dr Seri Robinson there is no food safe finish. Any finish you use will be able to trap bacteria in the wood and nullify the natural microbe killing property of wood.
I tend to avoid anything film finish for utility items, it's going to look like crap after a few uses.

Hello Russell
I use Tried and True products as well. As to "trapping bacteria" in the wood that sounds like death to the bacteria and if they didn't die how would it get out to bother anyone? (;-)

 

[Russell Nugent]

Hello Russell
I use Tried and True products as well. As to "trapping bacteria" in the wood that sounds like death to the bacteria and if they didn't die how would it get out to bother anyone? (;-)

That would be a question to ask the wood biologist not the woodturner