Oh, Jamie, gangling prepositions are often the most elegant way to both convey a thought and avoid clumsy, if not pretentious, structure. Your old grammar teacher has been outvoted by popular spoken usage over the years.
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Curtis,
I just checked the directory for 2009, and there you are in the California section. I don't believe the new directory for 2011-12 has been published, yet.
Cheers
Curtis,
I just checked the directory for 2009, and there you are in the California section. I don't believe the new directory for 2011-12 has been published, yet.
Cheers
He is no longer in the online directory, that it was he said and I checked and he isn't there.
Let me see if I understand:
I feel unquestionably certain that if certain individuals who have chimed in on this found out about this site and it's intents and objectives, they would have complained loudly about being excluded. To any of those, other than just fill the cup and drink the KoolAid is there anything that thy/we could do without having it demeaned by you?
I hit delete for things that are not of interest to me. Why make a big deal about this? If you want to participate, do... If not, don't...
Am I missing something?
- We have AAW email addresses available to AAW members so that we can contact each other.
- Some members have a desire to discuss what is for them/us, unresolved issues about certain aspects of certain actions taken by certain members of the AAW.
- These members could not fully discuss (to their/our satisfaction) these concerns
- These members started a website that would be dedicated to the idea that there should be an environment where AAW members could FULLY discuss their thoughts and concerns.
- Some of these members apparently reached out to a fairly large cross section of the AAW community, PERHAPS to insure that the discussion might include individuals who MIGHT have dramatically contrasting points of view, rather than try to control the environment.
- Care was taken to insure that IF someone had a problem in getting logged onto the site that they would have contact information which would insure that they could contribute.
- So far, no one has actually complained about not being able to sign in and log onto the site.
- BUT we have seen complaints and ridicule from some.
I feel unquestionably certain that if certain individuals who have chimed in on this found out about this site and it's intents and objectives, they would have complained loudly about being excluded. To any of those, other than just fill the cup and drink the KoolAid is there anything that thy/we could do without having it demeaned by you?
I hit delete for things that are not of interest to me. Why make a big deal about this? If you want to participate, do... If not, don't...
Am I missing something?
George,
Yes, you are missing a point or two. It’s been stated on this forum and elsewhere that between 10,000 and 12,000 AAW member’s personal contact information has been acquired by a non-AAW employee, and that unsolicited emails have or will be sent to everyone on this list. At the same time, nobody has volunteered where this data came from.
Some AAW members who have received email from your group indicated that their email address has changed since the 2009 Resource Directory was published, so the idea of harvesting data from the paper copy Resource Directory seems unlikely.
That leaves two possible sources – a copyright infringement by copying and pasting those 10,000 to 12,000 email addresses from our online members directory, which seems like a very labor intensive effort – or, accessing our website server through a hack or some other means, which would be criminal theft.
I hope to close the loop on the later possibility by the end of this week, acquiring the IP address of any unauthorized access to our server, if there was any - and I sincerely hope there was not.
In the mean time, it’s up to the acting ED and Board to determine what they want to do about a possible copyright infringement – I have no information on that.
Yes, you are missing a point or two. It’s been stated on this forum and elsewhere that between 10,000 and 12,000 AAW member’s personal contact information has been acquired by a non-AAW employee, and that unsolicited emails have or will be sent to everyone on this list. At the same time, nobody has volunteered where this data came from.
Some AAW members who have received email from your group indicated that their email address has changed since the 2009 Resource Directory was published, so the idea of harvesting data from the paper copy Resource Directory seems unlikely.
That leaves two possible sources – a copyright infringement by copying and pasting those 10,000 to 12,000 email addresses from our online members directory, which seems like a very labor intensive effort – or, accessing our website server through a hack or some other means, which would be criminal theft.
I hope to close the loop on the later possibility by the end of this week, acquiring the IP address of any unauthorized access to our server, if there was any - and I sincerely hope there was not.
In the mean time, it’s up to the acting ED and Board to determine what they want to do about a possible copyright infringement – I have no information on that.
Do you have a source for your statement? Specifically, something to contradict this, as posted by Mark Mandell upthread:
Um, yes it is. Mass mailings without prior consent of the AAW are specifically prohibited.
I don't see anybody worried about competition from the new forum. My specific concern is that my e-mail address is being farmed for use that is not sanctioned by the AAW.
Yes.
Your party could be about crocheting doilies while standing on your head underwater, but sending an unsolicited mass mailing about it would still be a violation to the rules you agreed to follow when you and/or your 100 friends used the AAW Membership Directory.
Bzzt. Try again.
Hi Ed,
Im not an AAW member - I just look at this forum for turning information, tips and ideas, but im also a UNIX sysadmin and Webmaster myself.
A simple script with wget around the publicly accessible php below looped for members 1 to 10000 will give most forum profile email addresses, a simple bit of awking/grepping to get a list.
I see no AAW copywrite on the php page mentioned,
no hacking required anywhere.
http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=
ps - Keep up the good work - more tips please, and gallery items.
Laurence Moughan
www.craobhcuigdeag.org
R
Ron Sardo
Guest
Are you losing your edge old man?
Just as an employee can not steal data from thier place of employment for physical or monetary gain, a member of a club can not steal data from a club for physical or monetary gain either.
The data was used to solicit membership for a forum that asks for donations and is looking to remove the BoD.
This, coupled with the email Curtis Thompson sent me ( ethicscomplaint3@yahoo.com ) titled "We need your help" dated on August 27, 2010 and signed by both Curtis and Bill Nelson, can be viewed as industrial espionage.
Industrial espionage and copyright infringement make a real nice matching pair.
Whatever you may think about the sitting BoDs, I can tell you this, they are very smart people with backgrounds fill of experience.
* old man is the handle Royce uses on other forums
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
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- Location
- Lakeland, Florida
- Website
- www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Ron,
you mention monetary gain.
the site while it is free does solicit donations.
Not sure what a web site in California costs but here it cost about a $100 a year. So with any response at all to the donation solicitation will net a tidy profit.
Maybe they will publish an audited accounting and donate the profits after taxes to the AAW disaster relief fund or the AAW EOG fund.
-al
you mention monetary gain.
the site while it is free does solicit donations.
Not sure what a web site in California costs but here it cost about a $100 a year. So with any response at all to the donation solicitation will net a tidy profit.
Maybe they will publish an audited accounting and donate the profits after taxes to the AAW disaster relief fund or the AAW EOG fund.
-al
R
Ron Sardo
Guest
Nick Todd own 9 other websites that are on the same shared server. He already paid for the server space so that didn't cost him a penny.
The Software he is using, SMF, is free. So it is pure profit.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 9,056
- Likes
- 5,590
- Location
- Lakeland, Florida
- Website
- www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Ron,
All Profit.....
hmmm!!!
al
All Profit.....
hmmm!!!
al
Ed,
Thank you for the additional information, however, while I know of this group and have visited their site, it is not MY group, nor, at this point am I a member of it.
I would be against ANY illegal harvesting of information, no matter how well intentioned the purpose might be.
As to the copyright infringement aspect, the difference is between sending thousands of individuals and bulk sending? Are the posted email addresses clickable?
I understand that the BoD would be just as content if all of the concern for their actions would lay down and die, but I had always been told that we get the governance that one accepts... Even if one doesn't like it.
I have pretty much stepped aside from this battle as I see little to no chance to have any real impact going forward. I tried, I'm not a freedom fighter, if it comes down to it, I'll just move out of this country too.
I was going to enter a lot of the upcoming contests, but people with whom I fundamentally disagree on the Mary Lacer/BoD thing are the judges. There is absolutely no point in my spending the entry fee as I believe that their steadfast and absolute support for the BoD and my daring to STRONGLY question the BoD eliminates any chance I have of getting a fair viewing, no matter how good my work is. Getting acclaim in contests is one good (and comparatively quick) way to raise one's profile. These "Name" turners will be in a position to judge me and my work for the foreseeable future, as they are "go to" judges based on recent history. Payback I'm willing to accept, based on standing up for my beliefs... Other than crossing the line on the odd occasion in terms of verbiage, I would change nothing about that. Freedom of Speech is a small price to pay for "lesser success."
You see, this is why I am leaving this Association. Too many babies and not enough adults to carry on a reasonable conversation.
Good Luck with the daycare business.
Greg Darling
Good Luck with the daycare business.
Greg Darling
Profit?
Guys,
There's no profit in this endeavor. The only funds we've collected so far is the original seed $ that Nelson & I have invested. It is still in my pocket waiting for it to be needed. 🙄
This is an all volunteer effort to provide a free platform where disenfranchised AAW members can speak freely.
I personally invite all AAW members including those on the other side of the issues to come out in the open and contribute to the discussions. Please stop hiding behind screen names at the woodturnersforum.org 🙁
We look forward to hearing from you
Curtis Thompson
# 15049
Guys,
There's no profit in this endeavor. The only funds we've collected so far is the original seed $ that Nelson & I have invested. It is still in my pocket waiting for it to be needed. 🙄
This is an all volunteer effort to provide a free platform where disenfranchised AAW members can speak freely.
I personally invite all AAW members including those on the other side of the issues to come out in the open and contribute to the discussions. Please stop hiding behind screen names at the woodturnersforum.org 🙁
We look forward to hearing from you
Curtis Thompson
# 15049
I will repeat this info....
..from a prior post since Ron and Ed persist in making hollow threats about copyright violations.😛 And now Ron is adding "industrial espionage" to the wish list of fancy terminology!
..from a prior post since Ron and Ed persist in making hollow threats about copyright violations.😛 And now Ron is adding "industrial espionage" to the wish list of fancy terminology!
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R
Ron Sardo
Guest
What a vbiolations?
My fingers are too fast ...
...for my keyboard Ron. 😀
...for my keyboard Ron. 😀
R
Ron Sardo
Guest
Why don't you come clean and tell us how you came across 12,000 email addresses?
We look forward to hearing from you.
Aren't they the result of legumes?
Al
Would that disaster fund include the BoD's debacle thats going to cost us dearly? 😕
Would that disaster fund include the BoD's debacle thats going to cost us dearly? 😕
Jamie, as has been the case so often over the past months - the information that spews from your keyboard is simply wrong.
Lifting any data off a copyrighted website without permission is a copyright infringement. The question is - does the owner or trustee of the site believe the infringement to be severe enough to warrant action to protect the copyright. A copyright infringement, unlike hacking into someone's server, is not criminal. However, there may be civil consequences. But that's not my call. I'm mainly interested in the integrity of the data on our server. BTW, when I say "server", I'm referring to the AAW's main site, where all AAW membership data is maintained (woodturner.org), not this forum.
Ron,
You come clean and tell us who booted Al of the by-laws revision comittee 🙄
You come clean and tell us who booted Al of the by-laws revision comittee 🙄
R
Ron Sardo
Guest
R
Ron Sardo
Guest
Curtis,
Instead of the email campaign, you could have merely posted this message here and the other turning forums to have gotten the word out on your new endeavor.
The method you chose is rightly causing questions - but I give you the benefit of the doubt that the stir over how you collected the list wasn't foreseen. I hope you can understand why folks are upset.
Well, there is the expense of paying bulk mailing companies like Express Email Marketing, so they do have that working against them.
Well Ron, I suppose you and Ed are....
... the sources for all information about everything, but I do have a fair understanding of copyright law. I spent 5 yrs. in Federal Court prosecuting 3 national publishers for willful infringement of my photographs, and as prevailing plaintiff the settlement allowed me to retire early. Any further suggestions for my edification?
... the sources for all information about everything, but I do have a fair understanding of copyright law. I spent 5 yrs. in Federal Court prosecuting 3 national publishers for willful infringement of my photographs, and as prevailing plaintiff the settlement allowed me to retire early. Any further suggestions for my edification?
And as usual Ed, you are not....
.. the judge and jury of what is right or wrong, but are making a subjective response based on what you believe you know to be true. Good luck with that.
.. the judge and jury of what is right or wrong, but are making a subjective response based on what you believe you know to be true. Good luck with that.
Express Mail Marketing will be really pleased to get the AAW's cease & desist order followed by an i
injunction and civil suit.
ps: Oops, just looked up EMM and found it to be just software that seems to get rented. Not a mail service provider who could be named and restrained
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I'd get in tons of trouble for using a sentence like this.
Notwithstanding any accuracy to the rest of your statement on the matter, the word "spews" is unnecessary and inflammatory.
I would ask you, as a representative of AAW to refrain from using language that reflects poorly on us all.
Notwithstanding any accuracy to the rest of your statement on the matter, the word "spews" is unnecessary and inflammatory.
I would ask you, as a representative of AAW to refrain from using language that reflects poorly on us all.
How about an opinion from some of the members of the board of directors? Or don't they post anymore?
R
Ron Sardo
Guest
jamie, I deal with mailing lists and copyright everyday as part of my business. If you really did all that you say, you would know exactly why what was done is so wrong.
R
Ron Sardo
Guest
George,
You’re absolutely right – thanks for pointing that out. I keep telling myself to not get drawn into these “us versus them” things, and then before ya know it – bam, I get sucked in. It might be helpful if you know where I’m really coming from…I took seriously the agreement that Mary and the BoD struck, in particular this statement:
“Mary Lacer, AAW President Tom Wirsing, and the entire Board of Directors, hope that everyone on both sides of this controversy can “bury the hatchet”, renew damaged friendships, and get on with the business of sharing our passion for woodturning.”
Since this agreement was made, I see two things happening:
1) The BoD has been going out of its way to improve communication and transparency – published minutes of meetings, opening up meetings with phone-in participation, allowing a cross-section of AAW membership to be formed into a committee to re-write bylaws, and several other things you may never hear about – while at the same time, getting the work of AAW done: initiating the 2011 EOGrant program, preparing for the 2011 symposium, the chapter challenge, the chapter special exhibit, publishing the 25th anniversary book, pursuing donors for the membership giveaways and youth turning program, negotiating contracts for future symposiums, interviewing new ED candidates, and on and on.
2) In the mean time, I read very personal attacks on these same volunteers, coming from people who have no first-hand knowledge of anything that has transpired – statements like these:
***************
“Would that disaster fund include the BoD's debacle thats going to cost us dearly?”
“I have less than zero respect for the current BOD”
“everything the current BOD has done and continues to do does not bode well for future of the AAW”
“Anybody who thinks that what the BOD did was perfectly OK.....well, IMHO they are seriously ethically and morally challenged and are distinctly unqualified to be part of the administration of this great organization.”
“Crybabies, that is what I'm starting to see in the AAW mouthpieces”
“Oh yes today is a good day! Love getting the goats going!”
“I posted on the AAW forum and Mark Mouthpiece Mandell and Ron Rotwieler Sardo immediately attacked me with their childish drivel. ROFL.”
“Mark Mouthpiece Mandell and Ron Lurker Sardo are attacking me. What a couple of hypocrites.”
“oh the whining this should get there goat.”
“They know if they come onto this site and try to spew their brand of transparency, fair and balanced discussion, and kissing BOD butt, we will be all over them like a cheap suit.”
“might be perking up a bit, and I just posted a response to the BOD proxies that were attacking the operations of this new freedom of speech forum. Will be interesting to see how long it takes them to ban me again!”
“The rats are sure running around like fire ants! They still want to keep us in the dark about all their LIES.”
“The "mouthpieces" that kept speaking for the board members on the AAW forum told us over and over that we really have no need to know anything.”
“Silence indicates acceptance of the BOD's unethical behavior.”
“I guess some people still are wearing their blinders and do not believe any wrong has been done.”
“It is divided by a lack of moral turpitude coming from our governing body.”
“Do you think the BoD supporters will boycott us trying to diminish our impact?”
“No more hiding behind fake names or having your lackeys do your bidding for you.”
“Actually, I think the BOD Mouthpieces are more like "Board Member Wannabes". It will be interesting to see how many of the BOD lackeys end up being nominated to the BOD in next year's election.”
“the BoD, by the very nature of their actions, are unethical cowards.”
“They were either active participants, complicit, or cowards for not standing up to Larson.”
“This whole sale scorched earth policy they have demonstrated regarding Lacer needs to eradicated.”
“Ya know, sometimes you have to get your hands dirty when you play in the mud, and it gets pretty slippery in the mud, That can work to your advantage if you want to play in the game! Might be fun if your skin is thick enough......”
“I posted some comments on Facebook today, trying to stir up some reaction.”
“Just a continuance of the flaunting of power by the current BOD.”
“They feel they are above the law”
“Strict ethics rules, by-laws and rules of conduct only have meaning to honest and ethical people. I don't think we have those kind of people on our current BOD. Rules can work ok if you have one 'bad egg' but when you have a whole nest full of 'bad eggs' there is nobody to enforce those rules.”
“This current bunch of clowns would only rewrite the ethics policy's to fit their behavior. They've already done that to the bylaws.”
"I'm working on s**t that would have disqualified most all of your heroes from doing much more for the AAW than volunteering to hold the door at the annual symposium."
******************
Facing this onslaught of discontent is very difficult. I fear for the health and wellbeing of our organization. Yes, it is a very small group of people making these hideous comments, but it is still very hurtful.
So I ask everyone who has participated in these bashing sessions – please stop, for the good of AAW.
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Ed, it would be helpful if you cut and past the entire message so we can see the bashing in context. On the other hand maybe you should be posting your comments on the forum where the original message appears.
I stand by what you quoted me as posting.
Ed: Your list of what the BOD is doing is encouraging, however:
1. Tom lied to us at the beginning, therefore loss of trust.
2. After the collection of proxies started, I e-mailed all of the board calmly asking them to help me keep my proxy in my pocket. Their non-response was listed as a reason to take it out of my pocket. The only board member that responded was Warren C, who is in my club. I still feel ignored!
3. With no trust and being ignored, can you explain to me how I can be happy?
4. I am anxiously waiting to see the by-law revisions.
5. Many of us are willing to go beyond the firing of Mary. What concerns us is the manner that it was carried out. A simple apology could have prevented many bits and bytes of this whole debaucle. 🙁
Bill Turpin
#23724
Ed: Your list of what the BOD is doing is encouraging, however:
1. Tom lied to us at the beginning, therefore loss of trust.
2. After the collection of proxies started, I e-mailed all of the board calmly asking them to help me keep my proxy in my pocket. Their non-response was listed as a reason to take it out of my pocket. The only board member that responded was Warren C, who is in my club. I still feel ignored!
3. With no trust and being ignored, can you explain to me how I can be happy?
4. I am anxiously waiting to see the by-law revisions.
5. Many of us are willing to go beyond the firing of Mary. What concerns us is the manner that it was carried out. A simple apology could have prevented many bits and bytes of this whole debaucle. 🙁
Bill Turpin
#23724
Your thorough response leaves me a bit aghast. I have to agree that being the bigger man might seem difficult, but (as a person who has made similar remarks on earlier days) being bigger than those who have no greater resources than those you cite is a breeze, and, with the exception of this one comment, I see you as that man.
I was asked to sign on with the dissenting group and opted not to because their cause seemed to have a somewhat vengeful core... Not that I blame them, I still see a lot of dark and dirty corners in the actions of the BoD... BUT, I don't see how an eternal unwinnable war against them will achieve any goal I have. I'm still sad about the whole thing, and as I said, I risked a lot to stand for what I thought was right, but, allowing that BOTH sides can be respectful and engage fairly, less time and energy will be lost in making changes.
I'm not going to list or even name the snide and/or nasty ones, they know who they are and trying to get them to reign it in is about as senseless as trying to get the ones who are offensive in your mind to "behave."
Suffice it to say that I'm sorry that we can't seem to get back to harmony, and while I understand and agree with your position that civility and dignity would be a better course, it still looks like it is a long way off for a number of the people still involved, on both sides.
Actually, none of this has any place on this forum. It is best left on that "fair and balanced" venue created for those who wish to wallow in their own negativity while defaming those others who are actually doing something for the AAW. Rationalize your culture of hate anyway you like, but keep it to yourselves.
Ed . . . flames are being thrown from both sides of the lathe. I think the fair thing to do would have been for you to post an equal number of attacks from both sides of the aisle. I'm not going to go through all of the ProBOD posts and cut/paste them here. There's no need to for me to do that.
None the less, for the reminder of this post, I would like to address you by the name that my family and I first knew you as . . . . "YoYoSpin".
So, here goes . . . .
YoYoSpin . . . thanks for taking a deep breath and reflecting on your own actions. It's never easy to look in the mirror . . . sometimes, we don't like what we see. However, I think we all need to reflect on what is going on and how we are contributing to the common good of the AAW.
Here's where things stand . . . the ProAAW/AntiBOD members feel as though we have no voice in this forum. Our perception is that we have been persecuted and ridiculed for standing up to the present BOD. As a result, we pursued what seemed to be the only logical solution . . . a forum where we could speak up in a constructive manner without the fear of being banned or ridiculed.
Woodturnersforum.org is designed to provide such a venue. The intent of the forum is to allow those who have been marginalized by the present BOD, and their supporters, to carry on a productive, meaningful discussion of issues regarding the AAW. Yes, some of the early discussions over at the new forum have been less than productive. However, we are convinced that honest communication builds trust. Perhaps, one day, you and the other ProBOD AAW members will feel comfortable in using your real names and posting with us.
In the meantime, I encourage all of us . . . to take YoYoSpin's lead and reflect on the nature of our posts.
Communication builds trust.
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