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Why CBN, or other coated steel wheels are not as good as a a matrix grind wheel......
- Thread starter Odie
- Start date
If it takes 4 minutes to hone, then it was not ground properly, or if this is a touch-up while turning, it needs to go back on the wheel. I haven't used a stop watch, but I would say that it takes less than 1/2 minute to hone with most of the time spent picking up the stone, oiling it, wiping up the oil and setting it back down.
I have been thinking about how when turning a bowl with a figured grain you are not just turning across the grain, but against the grain, too. If you want the minimum amount of tear-out, you need a super sharp edge that can take the lightest of cuts. Sure, there is no need to hone with shaping cuts, but there is a place for honing for finishing cuts. You can't sand tear-out effectively.
Pretty much.
Yes, I think so too.
One gentleman in our club goes to "Totally Turning" every year. He said (and I believe him) that he watched the big name demonstrators get ready for the day and they ALL sharpened freehand, without a jig.
Hmmm, so which would be more "like the pros", using a jig or not?
I ain't no pro (turner, that is) but the only time I use a jig is when I'm shaping (or restoring) a profile. Especially on the 180 CBN, I use the rest for my hand and just kiss the edge while rotating the profile by hand. Of course it may be a bit easier for me since I use a convex bevel for everything except the skews.
Generally I read and post to learn something. At this point of the discussion I learned that many like the CBN wheel, many sharpen freehand, many use jigs, many hone their tools many do not but very, very few are big kissers.
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Jeff,
Small sample size......
I would suggest just about all the professionals can sharpen by hand.
Many do use jigs at least part of the time.
Many do not.
I will grind my bowl gouges without using a jig if the wolverine tracks are misaligned.
Al
I've been reading this thread with interest, and 2 things have struck me...
1- How many people hone their tools. As a production turner, I take my tools straight from my grinder (120g White Wheel) (sharpened freehand from an adjustable platform)
I used to use a little slip stone to remove the small amount of burr that you naturally get from grinding/sharpening (whatever!!) but it was pointed out to me by several more experienced production turners that as soon as you touch the tool to the wood, that burr is gone, so why waste your time? I haven't honed since. This mostly refers to spindle work with gouges and skews, but I don't hone my bowl gouge either and don't have any problems.
2- I've not yet heard mention of using a belt type grinder/sharpener, such as the Sorby machine. I assume that has made it over there by now, it having been on the market for a number of years. They seem to be growing in popularity over here, just wondered if they are something used or considered over there?
Cheers
Richard
1- How many people hone their tools. As a production turner, I take my tools straight from my grinder (120g White Wheel) (sharpened freehand from an adjustable platform)
I used to use a little slip stone to remove the small amount of burr that you naturally get from grinding/sharpening (whatever!!) but it was pointed out to me by several more experienced production turners that as soon as you touch the tool to the wood, that burr is gone, so why waste your time? I haven't honed since. This mostly refers to spindle work with gouges and skews, but I don't hone my bowl gouge either and don't have any problems.
2- I've not yet heard mention of using a belt type grinder/sharpener, such as the Sorby machine. I assume that has made it over there by now, it having been on the market for a number of years. They seem to be growing in popularity over here, just wondered if they are something used or considered over there?
Cheers
Richard
Just to add a little more regarding honing. I know of a few turners that grind their tools then hone until they can't hone any more and the tool regrinding. The main reason I have heard given for this is so they don't waste steel. The way I see it, once you have the grind you want, each sharpen is just cleaning the bevel, so minimal steel is lost. Really don't see the point myself.
My white grindstone is around 5 years old and has lost about 1" of diameter, most of my tools last several years before needing to be replaced, even those in daily use. This suggests that either I am good at sharpening, or I don't sharpen enough....
Richard
My white grindstone is around 5 years old and has lost about 1" of diameter, most of my tools last several years before needing to be replaced, even those in daily use. This suggests that either I am good at sharpening, or I don't sharpen enough....
Richard
Hello Richard......glad to have your input!
I think you're right that more turners don't hone, than those who do......don't know if that's an accurate assessment, but it's my general feeling from the input I've read. I also believe it's all a matter of the kind of results that are desired, combined with the skill of the turner to take advantage of a finely honed edge.
There are others who have stated that they do not hone, because the burr is gone almost immediately. The tool will certainly still cut. The problem with this is the little burr is a piece of metal that is still connected to the cutting edge. When it breaks off, it does not break off without leaving a broken edge. This might be a matter for further discussion, but the edge that is left after the burr has broken away will surely still cut. It all depends on what is acceptable, but probably few will disagree that a carefully honed edge will produce a better result than an edge where the burr has broken away. Well, I can't speak for others, but this particular point is something I have experimented with, and my findings are the honed edge will produce the superior cleanly made cut. The down side is the carefully honed edge will not last very long, but while it is still viable, it does exceed the possibilities without honing.
The Sorby sharpening belt system has been available here for a couple years, that I know of. I haven't heard much comment from those who use them. If it's your opinion that the Sorby system is better than a grinding wheel, I'd be interested in hearing about why you feel so.
ooc
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I really do laugh at these discussions. No right answer. No one is right and no one is wrong. It's all about what works for you. Do I hone? Sometimes.
Quick question for those that hone religiously. How many revolutions does a honed edge last? Do you hone when the honed edge is dulled? Just curious if anyone is honing every 20-30 seconds. Oh? So it really comes down to................. Personal preference. Guess that's why I hone, sometimes.
I also believe CBN wheels could scientifically be proven to have advantages over matrix wheels. With every revolution of a matrix wheel there is microscopic loss/wear to that wheel. This loss won't be uniform so it has an effect on the surface being sharpened. The CBN wheels do not have this issue. Most people dress their matrix wheel when it's noticeable to the eye(otherwise they would have to dress it every use. I could go on....
Quick question for those that hone religiously. How many revolutions does a honed edge last? Do you hone when the honed edge is dulled? Just curious if anyone is honing every 20-30 seconds. Oh? So it really comes down to................. Personal preference. Guess that's why I hone, sometimes.
I also believe CBN wheels could scientifically be proven to have advantages over matrix wheels. With every revolution of a matrix wheel there is microscopic loss/wear to that wheel. This loss won't be uniform so it has an effect on the surface being sharpened. The CBN wheels do not have this issue. Most people dress their matrix wheel when it's noticeable to the eye(otherwise they would have to dress it every use. I could go on....
Hi Odie
The funniest thing about all this is that most people have their opinion and are sticking to it, making this slightly pointless, but a bit of fun all the same ;-)
The thing with sharpening is that there is always some sort of compromise to make. You can hone to the point you can shave with it but if that lasts for only seconds then it's pointless. You need to get the balance between sharpness and longevity surely??
As for the belt sharpening system, the only reason I brought it up is because if this debate was happening on a UK forum someone would have chimed in by now that it's a better option. Personally I haven't tried it but it certainly appeals... Apart from the price tag!! You get a flat bevel (which many claim is better) there's no risk of stones exploding and you can buy various belts down to quite fine grades for those that are anal about their sharpening!
Cheers
Richard
The funniest thing about all this is that most people have their opinion and are sticking to it, making this slightly pointless, but a bit of fun all the same ;-)
The thing with sharpening is that there is always some sort of compromise to make. You can hone to the point you can shave with it but if that lasts for only seconds then it's pointless. You need to get the balance between sharpness and longevity surely??
As for the belt sharpening system, the only reason I brought it up is because if this debate was happening on a UK forum someone would have chimed in by now that it's a better option. Personally I haven't tried it but it certainly appeals... Apart from the price tag!! You get a flat bevel (which many claim is better) there's no risk of stones exploding and you can buy various belts down to quite fine grades for those that are anal about their sharpening!
Cheers
Richard
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Richard I've been playing with belt sharpening as well as using the Tormek and Matrix wheels and the CBN just so I can learn what the pros and cons are of each. I use a 320 belt on my sander right now although you can change belts in 30 seconds or less so you can use whatever grit you think that tool needs, even a strop. A 320 belt cuts fast. Hard to put a number on it but I'd say it's not far behind my 120 grit matrix wheel and my 180 grit cbn. It fact you have to be very light on the tool when sharpening or it becomes shaping real fast. You get a really really clean cutting tool off the 320 grit. The edge looks as polished as the edge off my Tormek which is supposed to be 1000 grit. I'll probably have to get a microscope to really learn the difference.
What I don't like so far is the belt gets dull fairly quickly. I can't find the Blue ceramic belts in higher grits so I'm using a standard wood sanding belt. Still the belts only cost $3 and it just takes seconds to replace. I haven't replaced it yet because it's still working but also haven't used it a lot since I'm only sharpening 2 tools on it.
What I'm learning from all these sharpenings is that it is all so subjective. I can get a clean cut with any tool I pick up if I use it correctly, straight off the grinder or not. I do get a cleaner cut from a freshly sharpened tool that has been honed with a 600 grit wheel, but is it sharper than belt at 320 or the Tormek at 1000. Hard to say because every piece of wood I turn is different. Kind of like saying my Particle metal tool edges last 4x as long as HSS tools. I think they do but without putting some kind of scientific test with hard results to it I really can't say that they do. I stop to sharpen hopefully before a tool gets dull but then what is my definition of dull and I'm sure it varies depending on what wood I'm cutting and how I feel today. 🙂
So as you said this is an interesting discussion ( a little long winded at times) and we probably aren't going to change anyones mind. I sharpen both free hand and with a jig. Both have advantages for me depending on the tool. I do sharpen more free handed when I travel because I often don't have access to the same jigs I use or their set up is just not the same as Al hinted at.
What I don't like so far is the belt gets dull fairly quickly. I can't find the Blue ceramic belts in higher grits so I'm using a standard wood sanding belt. Still the belts only cost $3 and it just takes seconds to replace. I haven't replaced it yet because it's still working but also haven't used it a lot since I'm only sharpening 2 tools on it.
What I'm learning from all these sharpenings is that it is all so subjective. I can get a clean cut with any tool I pick up if I use it correctly, straight off the grinder or not. I do get a cleaner cut from a freshly sharpened tool that has been honed with a 600 grit wheel, but is it sharper than belt at 320 or the Tormek at 1000. Hard to say because every piece of wood I turn is different. Kind of like saying my Particle metal tool edges last 4x as long as HSS tools. I think they do but without putting some kind of scientific test with hard results to it I really can't say that they do. I stop to sharpen hopefully before a tool gets dull but then what is my definition of dull and I'm sure it varies depending on what wood I'm cutting and how I feel today. 🙂
So as you said this is an interesting discussion ( a little long winded at times) and we probably aren't going to change anyones mind. I sharpen both free hand and with a jig. Both have advantages for me depending on the tool. I do sharpen more free handed when I travel because I often don't have access to the same jigs I use or their set up is just not the same as Al hinted at.
Yes, certainly, it comes down to (winds up being) - personal preference. Hopefully this personal preference is based on personal experience in light of others personal experience. That is the value of this forum.
The other day I rough turned a bowl from ash heartwood from a sort of crotch on a power lathe. I did not hone. The next day I worked on a flower made from green lilac, that needed to be about 1/8 inch thick to prevent cracking while drying, on a treadle lathe. I did hone. (Went through the bottom with a scraper, sigh...)
As far as dressing my wheel, again personal preference, I dress it with a little crown. Actually, when I dress the wheel I am really just getting the residual metal off of it. I also prefer a 6 inch wheel and have looked around for a 6 inch CBN. But then I am just a hobbyist, and use my grinder for general shop use. I really don't want to get a dedicated grinder for lathe tools.
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Mornin' Richard......
You are right about strong opinions, and those who have them are not likely to change their point of view. I offer another opinion about whether or not opposing points of view are a worthwhile discussion. There are many new turners here, and among those, opinions are still flexible. From my perspective (believe it or not!) there have been times when I have changed, or altered my views. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has. On the discussion at hand, I doubt that will happen because my views here are the result of years of experimentation and adjusting the methods I have come to find the results I am having. Admittedly, I do not bother to buy every new product that is touted as the best thing ever, but I do have a perspective gotten by time and practice using the tools and equipment I have.......
Back in my very beginnings, thirty something years ago, I did use a 4x36 belt for sharpening tools. There, the belt changes were slow, and the belts didn't last as long as I'd wanted. I guess none of this really applies, because I was such a newbie back then. My first grinder was 3450rpm with 6" wheels. This is when I bought my first SG wheel, and have stuck with it because this wheel is dramatically better than anything else (an opinion!). For quite a few years, I didn't hone much at all, but slowly graduated to the methods I have evolved to today......because of the results I am capable of. Tool preparation is a major factor in my evolution, but by all means, is not the only factor......
ooc
Sooo true! Kind of reminds me of some of the Neander/power tool threads I've read.
Although having a wealth of information available is a good thing, it can also make things even more confusing for a newbie. What do you believe among all the conflicting info available. Even though one turner(or even several) get excellent results from a method... Does that mean it is the easiest to learn or the best method available? I think not always!
But that perspective is somewhat skewed if you have not tried the other options, no?
Or at least better than what you had! Doesn't make it "the best" available. It is one thing to say my way works, but quite another to say it is better than something one has not tried! I've been in that position many times.. thinking I,ve found the best way since sliced bread, only to be shown I am working way to hard!
I am sure tool prep is part of it, but even the sharpest tool possible, presented to the work piece improperly, can result in very poor work or much, much worse!
I try to keep an open mind, and when I find something that may be better than what I am currently doing, I like to at least give it consideration. Do I buy every new thing that comes along? No, of course not. But if everyone took the attitude that my way is best, innovation and thus progress would come to screeching halt!
Odie, I have seen many of the pictures you have posted. Your results are undeniable, and I like your work. This has been an interesting, even entertaining thread!
"Does that mean it is the easiest to learn or the best method available?"
That really jumps out at me. It depends on what you want to accomplish. Do you want someone to be able to produce a doo-dad with very little experience, or do you want someone to learn how to really use the tools and methods that are available? Just the mention of a skew brings shivers to most of the club, for instance. And there are some members that use every tool as a scraper. I think they could do better... And yet if I was to get a youth interested in turning I would start with scrapers. Then introduce other tools and various methods, including sharpening, depending on their interest and abilities. I think it is important in every craft to keep it challenging.
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You have some interesting points in your post.
IMHO people have to work up to the best methods available. Beginners should be taught the fundamentals with the gouge Anchor bevel cut... Using the push cut. A shear cut with a gouge, most often the "best method available for hollowing a bowl" is something best learned on top of a solid foundation. The fundamentals always come into to play. But they are far from the best methods available. I consider many uses of the scraper to be and advance skill too.
Too many turners take pride in ignorance of the skew like some folks take pride in ignorance of arithmetic.
So true. In workshops and other activities I see folks using the side ground gouge only as a scraper. They are missing the beauty of what the tool can to. And in some cases they think they are accomplished with the tool.
My experience with youth is they get the use of the gouge quite quickly even as young as 8. If a kid can slice a tomato unattended they can master the spindle gouge in 1 spin top.
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Sharpening with a CBN wheel doesn't mean that you can't hone the edge if you want to.
Nothing discourages new turners more than trying to turn with dull tools. If jigs and CBN wheels make sharpening easier to learn, I see nothing wrong with that. In fact I see advantages to both. As with tool technique, a few fundamentals are necessary. Then we build on those fundamentals. Same as with most(all?) hobbies or professions for that matter.
Sharpening is a subject that I am very interested in, and still have a lot to learn. I still do it with matrix wheels, but definitely think CBN is in my future. But I think sharpening fundamentals are way more important than what type of wheels I use. Of course there is a need to use wheels that are compatible with the type of steel your tools are made from. But beyond that if it works, it works.
Don't laugh, but for some time I did most of my sharpening with a buffing wheel/buffing compound. It worked, what can I say!
Nothing discourages new turners more than trying to turn with dull tools. If jigs and CBN wheels make sharpening easier to learn, I see nothing wrong with that. In fact I see advantages to both. As with tool technique, a few fundamentals are necessary. Then we build on those fundamentals. Same as with most(all?) hobbies or professions for that matter.
Sharpening is a subject that I am very interested in, and still have a lot to learn. I still do it with matrix wheels, but definitely think CBN is in my future. But I think sharpening fundamentals are way more important than what type of wheels I use. Of course there is a need to use wheels that are compatible with the type of steel your tools are made from. But beyond that if it works, it works.
Don't laugh, but for some time I did most of my sharpening with a buffing wheel/buffing compound. It worked, what can I say!
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They're here, but sticker shock has probably kept most potential buyers at bay. Most of us aren't too prone to toss out our sharpening system just to buy something else that can do the same job for more money.
Or, you can sharpen on the grinder to the point where it will cut wood but if that only lasts for minutes then it is pointless. 🙄 (something that a beginner might say)
Since wood is anything but a homogeneous consistent material it is good to keep our sharpening options open. The longevity of an edge may not be the most important consideration when dealing with challenging conditions in wood.
I know some turners who have used a belt sander, but Richard is referring to the new Sorby belt sharpening tool which is not a belt sander. It is very expensive on this side of the pond and the belts are very expensive and they do not resemble sanding belts at all. I have seen them at Rockler Hardware and at Woodcraft. Most of the various woodturning catalogs also have them. Here is a link to the Robert Sorby Pro Edge at Craft Supplies.
One point I make when sharpening, about once a year, you will hear about some one who picks a use lathe and all the accessories for a steal price. It is sold because 'it just wasn't fun any more'. The new owner takes it home and sets every thing up, and makes the startling discovery that the tools were dull. Nothing more....
robo hippy
robo hippy
You can, of course, pay larger for a belt sharpening "system" from turning suppliers, but the $130 Ricon combination 1x30" belt and 6" disk sander at Klingspor will do just fine with belts made for sharpening alloy steels in grits up to 400 for $2 a piece. Difference will be that you'll need to make a few jigs to fit.
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I agree with Reed 100% On this. Sharp tools used properly and there is no effort required by the turner.
If you feel any stress on the tool handle or are getting bounced around or beat up when roughing you don't have sharp tools and good technique.
If you have good posture, sharp tools, and proper technique you can get tired but nothing will hurt.
Al
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We had two kids 12-13 in a turning class that met Saturday mornings for 5 weeks.
About the 3rd class Johnny and Warren came in. They had visited one of their grandfathers who let them use his lathe.
Their one comment - " boy were his tools dull".........
Al
About the 3rd class Johnny and Warren came in. They had visited one of their grandfathers who let them use his lathe.
Their one comment - " boy were his tools dull".........
Al
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What a tragedy. On another forum someone asked where other turners sent their tools to be sharpened. 🙄
Al and Bill, Yup! and Yup!
The finish cut because no one likes to sand. One, tools must be sharp. Two, present the tool to the wood so that it cuts cleanly and you don't get catches. Three, move with the tool so you get an even no bumps and humps surface.
robo hippy
The finish cut because no one likes to sand. One, tools must be sharp. Two, present the tool to the wood so that it cuts cleanly and you don't get catches. Three, move with the tool so you get an even no bumps and humps surface.
robo hippy
Mark Hepburn
Artist & Chef
I can just see this as a Seinfeld episode:
Kramer: "yeah, just got my tools back from my grinder guy."
George: "grinder guy?! grinder guy!? whaddaya mean a grinder guy?"
Kramer: "Oh yeah, I've got a grinder guy. You gotta have a grinder guy."
George: "C'mon Kramer!! Jerry, tell Kramer he can't possibly need a grinder guy!"
Jerry: "Why not?"
George: (murmuring) "I gotta get a grinder guy".
🙂
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Not that there's anything wrong with that. 🙄
Mark Hepburn
Artist & Chef
Yep, I'm enjoying this immensely!
I've long ago come to the point where I give my point of view, and allow others to have theirs. I'll even, at times, argue my point........but, the bottom line is: I understand that everyone has their own individuality, and my opinions are based on things others don't see as I do.....and vise-versa!
True story
Dave (owner of D-Way) has had customers ask him if they can send the tools back to be resharpened and asked about buying "several" so they can cycle them back to him for sharpening.
Hmm... business opportunity? Not so much, the other two turners in this area probably sharpen their own! Of course there is always UPS.🙂
I actually had a catch while grinding a bowl gouge - all due to inexperience - talk about pucker factor. Using a Vari-grind I, the tool slipped off the side of the wheel. It was a Norton blue 80 grit. The grinder was almost stopped and as soon as the gouge was removed from binding the wheel, the grinder started trying to get to speed. I was quick on the shut off but in shock. After replacing the wheel, I then tried one of the contained jigs and didn't like it.
This was my reason for going to a CBN. It is a bit safer if you aren't as talented at sharpening. The wheel is not going to be damaged if you have a catch. That is what I have now along with the Vari-grind I. I can now grind my tools without the worry of having another catch at the grinder and possibly getting injured. Again, it is due to bad grinding skills. I bought it for my own safety due to poor sharpening skills.
I think if my tools didn't have such long handles, they would be easier to control and get the feel of grinding the tool. Removable handles would probably be better for me only due to sharpening. I don't have much of a turning muscle yet, so I try to make up for that with a long handle on my tools. 😀
I have tried honing, but haven't mastered it yet.
Recently, Doug Thompson released You Tube video on sharpening that was most helpful to me.
This was my reason for going to a CBN. It is a bit safer if you aren't as talented at sharpening. The wheel is not going to be damaged if you have a catch. That is what I have now along with the Vari-grind I. I can now grind my tools without the worry of having another catch at the grinder and possibly getting injured. Again, it is due to bad grinding skills. I bought it for my own safety due to poor sharpening skills.
I think if my tools didn't have such long handles, they would be easier to control and get the feel of grinding the tool. Removable handles would probably be better for me only due to sharpening. I don't have much of a turning muscle yet, so I try to make up for that with a long handle on my tools. 😀
I have tried honing, but haven't mastered it yet.
Recently, Doug Thompson released You Tube video on sharpening that was most helpful to me.
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I am not so sure about that. I have found that the burr will stay on quite a while, like until it is dull. Of course it depends on how big the burr is to start with.
What are others experiences with the burr left on from the wheel? Does it wear off as soon as you start turning or not?
Jeff.......I think it also depends on how thick the burr is. A scraper will have a burr that is thicker at the base than a gouge. The angle of the grind will have a lot to do with it. I can see how this could vary, depending on the turners own techniques. Previously, I mentioned that if a burr does break, it will be a broken edge that remains. Honing makes all this irrelevant, but the formation of the burr on scrapers is critical to how well it will perform.
ooc
Jeff, I don,t hone after grinding. Sometimes between grindings. Haven't had any problems that way.
Thanks for the reply, Duane.
Just to be clear, maybe there isn't a "problem" having a little burr left. It might be the benefit that those that prefer a "serrated" edge from off the grinder get. But what I am wondering is if it just gets worn off as soon as you start to turn, as some seem to say. I have noticed that it stays for a while, and the turning works better when it is gone.
Speaking of Burrs
My experience has been that grinder-made burrs are more fragile and short-lived than they are useful. I much prefer to sharpen the scraper, lap the grinder burr off, and then use a burnisher such as the Lee Valley tool http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=20266&cat=1,330,49233 to raise get a strong and uniform burr.
My experience has been that grinder-made burrs are more fragile and short-lived than they are useful. I much prefer to sharpen the scraper, lap the grinder burr off, and then use a burnisher such as the Lee Valley tool http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=20266&cat=1,330,49233 to raise get a strong and uniform burr.
But does the burr either break or wear off? Good or bad, I think it might not.
The burrs on a scraper, especially from the CBN wheels are very sturdy. I can rough out a 14 inch bowl with one no problem, and the burr is still left. I don't take the time to burnish a burr because there is little to no improvement in quality or durability. This is with both the M2 HSS, V 10, and the M4 what-ever that D Way uses. You can hand burnish a burr on your scrapers. I use a triangle burnishing tool. I looked at the Lee Valley burnishing tool, and didn't go for it. I have seen some use it, and they use a lot of pressure. You can over burnish to the point where the burr curls over which does make it difficult to cut with.
With gouge burrs, if you sharpen, which means just a gentle kiss on the grinder wheel, you don't get much of a burr. If you grind, using a lot of pressure, you can get a fairly heavy and coarse burr. I found when I did that, I needed to hone the burr off in order to do a shear scrape. It would still do fine for heavy roughing.
Again, the quality and strength of the burr depend on the wheel and how much pressure you are using.
robo hippy
With gouge burrs, if you sharpen, which means just a gentle kiss on the grinder wheel, you don't get much of a burr. If you grind, using a lot of pressure, you can get a fairly heavy and coarse burr. I found when I did that, I needed to hone the burr off in order to do a shear scrape. It would still do fine for heavy roughing.
Again, the quality and strength of the burr depend on the wheel and how much pressure you are using.
robo hippy