Which of these scrapers...?

[Brad Hays]

Getting ready to drop some $$ on my first set of wood turning tools and I've got everything figured out except my scraper. I'm primarily interested in turning bowls and could use some advice on which one of these three I should get.

In order, the below pictures are:

1) Hurricane M2 Cryo 1" (x3/8") Heavy Duty Bowl Finishing Scraper....$114
2) Hurricane M42 Cryo 3/4" Bowl Finishing Scraper .......................................$82
3) Hurricane M2 Cryo 1" Round Nose Scraper ....................................................$76

At first I was thinking of getting the cheaper 1" round nose and grind / sharpen so that it has the profile of a bowl scraper. Is it ok to do this, or should I go for one of the other tools that are actual bowl scrapers? And if so, what's the advantage / functionality of the heavy duty scraper vs. the smaller 3/4" one?

 

[John Dillon]

Brad - everyone will have their opinion, but........I turn a lot of bowls and 95% of the time use a traditional 5/8" bowl gouge only. My bowl gouges have 55-60 degree bevels which generally gets it done for me. I will occasionally use a negative rake scraper (pretty heavy duty, not a lightweight) for some interior tear-out related issues, but it's rare. On those somewhat rare occasions where I go deeper than the width of the bowl, I have a "bottom-feeder" bowl gouge ground to about 85 degrees from an old traditional ground gouge someone gave me. On the exteriors of bowls, after shaping, I mostly shear-cut (tool handle down low and flute turned toward the bowl) with my bowl gouge and use the same bowl gouge as a scraper as needed. So, my 2-cents, use a bowl gouge (mostly) and a negative-rake scraper if necessary. Al Hockenbery, and a few other experienced turners that frequent this forum, probably have good videos showing how you turn the whole bowl with a traditional ground bowl gouge.

 

[Lou Jacobs]

I invested in the Glenn Lucas negative rake scraper (woodturnerscatalog.com) a few months ago, and have not looked back. With a proper burr burnished on the edge, it is a joy to use and does a great and safe job of shaving off finishing cuts in the inside of bowls. I don’t know if I’ve gotten much use out of my traditional (single-bevel) scrapers on bowls since I made the purchase. One exception is a homemade scraper I made from a concrete demolition tool I found on the side of the road several years ago. It is a one inch steel rod about 30” long . Probably weighs ten pounds. The end is flattened spoon shape and I ground a scraping edge on it. It’s great for heavy stock removal from the inside of rough bowls.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

Getting ready to drop some $$ on my first set of wood turning tools and I've got everything figured out except my scraper. I'm primarily interested in turning bowls and could use some advice on which one of these three I should get.

In order, the below pictures are:

1) Hurricane M2 Cryo 1" (x3/8") Heavy Duty Bowl Finishing Scraper....$114
2) Hurricane M42 Cryo 3/4" Bowl Finishing Scraper .......................................$82
3) Hurricane M2 Cryo 1" Round Nose Scraper ....................................................$76

At first I was thinking of getting the cheaper 1" round nose and grind / sharpen so that it has the profile of a bowl scraper. Is it ok to do this, or should I go for one of the other tools that are actual bowl scrapers? And if so, what's the advantage / functionality of the heavy duty scraper vs. the smaller 3/4" one?

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Get a negative rack scraper, the huge ones like 1 1/2 aren’t much better than the 1 inch ones I find, actually I like the 1 inch better, less area to catch When doing a fine scrape to clean up marks.

 

[Ron Solfest]

I purchased a number of scrapers 20yrs ago when I started turning. Scraped a few bowls back then... Now, as others have said, I seldom reach for a scraper. I do need to eventually invest in a negative rake one though. The scraper I use most often is a 1/4" x 1" Thompson slightly rounded that I clean up plates and platters with, otherwise most of them just gather dust for months on end until I use them for a few minutes on a particular issue. Of the couple dozen (or more) tools I have the 5/8" bowl gouge easily sees the most use. A small skew sees use on every bowl to make the tenon for my chuck, and usually a 3/8" bowl gouge, or a 3/8" detail gouge to clean off the bottom tenon when the bowl is completed. With that said, I wouldn't part with the others I have and continually think about getting more

 

[Brian Gustin]

What I don't get is, why would one invest in a negative rake scraper, if they already have a standard single-bevel (assuming the shape is how you want it to be, or could be ground to the shape you want) , all one would need to do, it seems, is take your single bevel scraper and grind a new bevel on the top, then grind your bevel again to raise a burr (or even, hone and raise a burr with a burnishing tool?) , voila, you have a negative rake scraper? Myself, I recently got a pair of PSI bowl scrapers (1" and 1-1/2" ) and while I have little practice in with them as yet, I was considering that I could just grind a negative rake into one or both, (but first I want to see if I can refine the shape I currently have on them, which does not "quite" fit the transitions I end up with - most of my difficulty now is on bowl bottoms just after the transition, invariably I seem to get a "ridge" in that area... )

 

[Ron Solfest]

…why would one invest in a negative rake scraper, if they already have a standard single-bevel (assuming the shape is how you want it to be, or could be ground to the shape you want) , all one would need to do, it seems, is take your single bevel scraper and grind a new bevel on the top, then grind your bevel again to raise a burr (or even, hone and raise a burr with a burnishing tool?)..,

Because, of course, I don’t want to sacrifice one of the 5 rarely used scrapers I already have…you can *always* use just one more tool

 

[Doug Freeman]

I have a lot of scrapers acquired over the 7 years I’ve been turning. I have several negative rake scrapers but none were purchased - all were ground to the profile and angles I wanted by me (from existing std scrapers). I dont use std scrapers anymore, only nrs. All of my “blanks” were purchased from PSI, various width, 1/2” to 1-1/2”. There is no magic width or profile, but I do like them to be 1/4” or more thick. With use you will figure out what you like.

 

[Dean Center]

IF you're just starting out, I would not spend the extra money for cryo steel. Get a basic M2 scraper in the size you think you want and put the shape on it you think you want. Then, when you realize it's not quite right, you can change the shape until you get what actually works for you. And not worry about how much expensive steel you're grinding off in the process. Think you actually want a negative rake scraper? Fine, off you go to the grinder and turn your inexpensive scraper into a negative rake. After 5 or 8 years, when you're getting pretty good at this, and your cheap scraper is getting kinda short, buy that fancy steel. At that point, you'll be able to appreciate the longer lasting edge. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I have Thompson scrapers which is no surprise as 95% of my tools are either Thompsons or Hunters. All the Thompsons are used with removable handles to make sharpening easier when needed. My most used scraper is a 3/4" negative rake Thompson left cutting tool ( the grind starts on the right side of the tool and goes left and up the left side and is used cutting from center then left to the rim of the bowl). Negative rake so the tool sits flat and level on the tool rest with little chance of a catch. And 10V steel does stay sharper longer and is a good investment.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

What I don't get is, why would one invest in a negative rake scraper, if they already have a standard single-bevel (assuming the shape is how you want it to be, or could be ground to the shape you want) , all one would need to do, it seems, is take your single bevel scraper and grind a new bevel on the top, then grind your bevel again to raise a burr (or even, hone and raise a burr with a burnishing tool?) , voila, you have a negative rake scraper? Myself, I recently got a pair of PSI bowl scrapers (1" and 1-1/2" ) and while I have little practice in with them as yet, I was considering that I could just grind a negative rake into one or both, (but first I want to see if I can refine the shape I currently have on them, which does not "quite" fit the transitions I end up with - most of my difficulty now is on bowl bottoms just after the transition, invariably I seem to get a "ridge" in that area... )

You can pretty easily make a double bevel scraper (NRS) from a single bevel, but you probably don't want to go back and forth.

If you take a 70* single and add a 10* top bevel you will get an NRS, but it will be blunter with an included angle of 80* . To get back to a 70* included angle you'll have to grind the bottom bevel to 60* loosing a bit of metal in the process.

Now if you change your mind and want to go back to single bevel you not only have to return the bottom bevel to 70*, but you have to grind away all of that shallow 10* bevel on the top, and that is a lot of metal.

 

[Brad Hays]

Thanks so much everybody for your advice, I always read word. I'd like to address everyone individually but I find I risk having my follow up questions disappear in the fray when I do.

I've had the suggestion that if I am considering buying the more expensive scraper that I might think about going with the Easy Wood Tools Finisher (carbide) instead. I understand the wisdom in the advice to get cheap tools first then see which ones I like/use invest in more expensive tools, but I'm a measure twice, cut once kind of guy so I tend to ask a bunch of questions. Any opinions on the Finisher vs. 3/8" NR scraper?

 

[Bill Blasic]

You can get a Thompson 3/4" scraper for $75 where the EWT is well over a hundred. With my CBN wheels I will never use all of my Thompson 3/4" scraper (and I wouldn't use it all if I was still using stone wheels). You know from demos you hear the pros saying that the scraper needs the burr to cut well and that the burr is gone in a few seconds but then you watch and he uses the scraper for minutes and if you watch closely if he needs it again he just picks it up again and uses it without resharpening. I don't use my 3/4" Thompson very often but I cannot remember the last time I sharpened it and it still does exactly what I need it to do. I have never felt the need to get an EWT tool and I would not take one if it were free as my Thompson does the same job. The only carbide I use regularly are the Hunter carbides.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I recommend against carbide scrapers. Scrapers need a burr, and a burr cannot be formed on carbide insert type material. Powdered metal tools, like Thompson, are formed similarly to inserts, but use a different material that has some ductility allowing a burr.

I’m a buy cheap figure out what you like type. I have a $95 tool I rarely use and cry each time I see it in the tool rack, it’s everlasting.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

Brad, I use carbide scrappers a lot, but they are a different type of tool with different attributes than HSS. Sometimes these differences are advantageous and sometimes disadvantageous, but they are not necessarily interchangeable with HSS tools. What will work best depends on the application (and the operator). Which leads me to wonder why you are suddenly considering carbide scraping tools?

 

[robo hippy]

Well, as a self proclaimed scraper psycho, I think the biggest appeal of the carbide scrapers, other than the Hunter tools which are cupped and designed to slice, is that they are small scrapers, which makes them easier to handle, especially for beginners. I do not like big wide thick scrapers. As I say in my Scary Scrapers video, I don't need anything over 1 inch wide and 5/16 thick.

As for cutting with and without burrs, this does present a puzzle. Most of the time, for scraping cuts, especially heavy ones, you want a burr. I was floored when I saw Nick Stagg do a demo in Salem, OR where he finish cut a hard maple lamp base that was side grain/bowl grain orientation, with a scraper. He honed off the burr and bevel. It left a very smooth surface. That type of edge does work in harder and more dense woods. It does not work in softer woods.

No idea how the carbide NRS works, or maybe I can't explain why it cuts. In theory, it shouldn't because the NRS needs a burr to cut. Apparently, it does work. A sharp edge does cut.

robo hippy

 

[Brad Hays]

Thanks for all the advice everybody. Just a couple follow up questions...

What's the difference between a bowl gouge and a detail gouge?

And on steel quality. I wrote Doug at Thompson's Tools and he explained his steel is 10% Vandium vs. Hurricane M2 Cryo's 2%, so that pretty much settles it for me. I've also had D-Way suggested as an alternative. Any opinion on Thompson's steel v. D-Way?

 

[Bill Blasic]

The difference between a bowl gouge and a detail gouge is the flute. The flute of a bowl gouge is much deeper than the flute of a detail gouge. As in the name used for different things. Spindle/detail gouges are used for more intricate cuts such as beads and coves to allow deeper entry into the wood.
D-Way makes a good tool using M42 steel. M42 is a good steel with good properties but just not as good as A11/10V steel. Dave at D-Way was the original purveyor of the M42 steel who had his tooling making methods stolen while teaching a child I have been told, the info is out there you just have to find it. If you were to choose M42 go with D-Way.

 

[robo hippy]

I have not been able to tell any difference in performance of the 2 metals. The M42 is what is used for teeth on bimetal bandsaw blades, and this includes the blades used for cutting up pallets. A friend, who turned myrtle wood trays for the Oregon coast shops for 30 years said he couldn't tell any difference either. Both are well made.

robo hippy

 

[Timothy White]

Cobalt is the “secret“ ingredient in M42 steel.
Thompson steel is Powdered Metal which reduces porosity to almost 0 Thompson steel is also tempered 4 fumes 3 with heat and one cold (cryogenic) between the 3rd and 4th heat cycle. One of the English tool makers advertises a PM42 Which is powder metal Technology The only thing I dislike about Thompson tools is the un polished flute.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I'm pretty sure M-42 is also powdered metal steel, that made by Griggs Steel anyway. I personally see no advantage to a polished flute unless you're going to look at the cut with a 600 power microscope to see minute striations and it doesn't make the tool stay sharper longer.

 

[Allen Mattsen]

D-way makes excellent negative rake scrapers, along with a massive selection. M42 steel. Another advantage to the more expensive scrapers (besides the steel) is they tend to be thicker. I have a different, cheap scraper so thin I'm not sure there'd be room to convert it to a negative rake, heh. It's like a child's toy compared to the large D-Way.

That said, I plan to add a few more scrapers over time. I have a box scraper and the aforementioned large bowl scraper so far. I do like the no handle options. Sometimes I use the bowl scraper without a handle for a quick touch up.