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Which is more important.......

John Torchick said:
Off topic for the first part? Hy Tran, it is my observation that the manufacturers put hundreds of $$$$ of safety equipment on cars. But.......my further observation is that there is not one penny spent on "building" a safer driver. I have driven from central Florida to Wisconsin to Texas to southern California. As my father once observed in Atlanta- "There has to be a God. Someone has to be looking out for these people." And people wonder why their car insurance is so high.
As for wood turning- I like to putter around on the lathe and see what I can do with what tools I have. I have turned pen blanks with a roughing gouge, spindle gouge, skew, round nose scraper. The tools do a great job. Must be operator error that comes into play.
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I'm trying to write (perhaps ineffectively) that pure trial and error, while it does lead to greater knowledge/experience, is perhaps not always the most effective means of acquiring better knowledge and experience. Turning wood involves some element of applications of abstract knowledge, and also motor skills ;)
 
Hy Tran said:
I'm trying to write (perhaps ineffectively) that pure trial and error, while it does lead to greater knowledge/experience, is perhaps not always the most effective means of acquiring better knowledge and experience. Turning wood involves some element of applications of abstract knowledge, and also motor skills ;)
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Thanks for walking point. I was going to mention how simulations are now used extensively to replace very expensive wind tunnel testing of aircraft and missiles, but perhaps not at this time. :D :rolleyes:
 
I can tell you one thing that simply cannot be taught.......that is recognizing and constructing a simple aesthetic smooth flowing curve on a turning. When it comes down to making very slight changes to a curve.......sometimes the difference in "eye appeal" will be dramatic.....and, the casual observer does recognize it. He may not understand the particulars, or mechanics of what he sees, but the subconscious impact of observing a good curve, is inherently within all of us. We, as turners, have a more acute awareness of this......(some more so than others!) :rolleyes:

-----odie-----
 
A lot can be taught about curves and techniques for turning them.
The catenary chain is often used in classes to show the families of wonderful curves
Many instructors Teach turning the body to create curves.
I teach putting a straight edge on the curve to test for flats.
I teach bowl students to establish the rim and and establish a notion of the foot and connect them with a pleasing curve. I tell them to watch the curve.
In multi day classes I have students turn a sphere. A known curve that is always pleasing.

That said the two of the more difficult things to execute in turning are long flats and long curves
A 2” flat is easy. The curve on an 8” bowl is easy
A 15” flat is darn hard to turn
A curve on a 15” bowl is a challenge

Turning a nice curve distinguishes the extraordinary from the soso
 
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Knowledge if you're most interested in safety and a faster learning curve.
Experience if you like earning your knowledge the hard way.
 
hockenbery said:
Turning a nice curve distinguishes the extraordinary from the soso
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^^^^^This I can agree with, Al :D

Teaching to "see" the curve is a much more difficult thing. You have to visualize the curve in order to make it happen.....and, that takes a bit more than what can be taught. A turner needs to make adjustments, and knowing just where to make the adjustment is more instinctual than a learned skill. It's similar to teaching how to paint an oil painting. You can teach, and teach, and teach......some will "get it" but most won't......because it takes some amount of God given ability to do it as well as it can be done. Now that is an extreme example, but the principle is the same. Some painters will improve with instruction, but they won't become a Rembrandt, unless they have something more than the average person within their soul. The same principle applies to woodturning......some will improve, but the fact remains that there is an inner quality that accentuates any one individual's ability to achieve perfection, beyond what learned skills can provide.

-----odie-----.
 
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Kelly you seem to be focusing on creativuty. Moving outside the box.

Creativity is something all people possess. Some more, others less.
You can teach the average student to turn a bowl with a spectacular catenary curve and they will be able to do so at the end of a week long class. Go home an be able to do it.

Will this be enough forever? The goals of turners often change over time.
Some people want to make unique objects from the get go. Others want to make common objects better.

All Woodturners make things – turned objects and tools
Success involves:
Conceptualizing- what to make
Process of making
The product


Most of us start out with conceptualizing limited to common objects like a bowl.
Just about every bowl shape imaginable has been made so little chance of a unique item here.
So the goal is to make the common object as best as we can. A few of us get good enough to make a common object better than most.

Then we have original work that moves the boundary of know turned objects. A few examples:
John Lucas- anthropomorphic goblets
Trent Bosch – vessel of illusion
Johannesen Michelson – turned hats

It is quite a thrill to make something no one else is making.
 
hockenbery said:
Kelly you seem to be focusing on creativuty. Moving outside the box.

Creativity is something all people possess. Some more, others less.
You can teach the average student to turn a bowl with a spectacular catenary curve and they will be able to do so at the end of a week long class. Go home an be able to do it.

Will this be enough forever? The goals of turners often change over time.
Some people want to make unique objects from the get go. Others want to make common objects better.

All Woodturners make things – turned objects and tools
Success involves:
Conceptualizing- what to make
Process of making
The product


Most of us start out with conceptualizing limited to common objects like a bowl.
Just about every bowl shape imaginable has been made so little chance of a unique item here.
So the goal is to make the common object as best as we can. A few of us get good enough to make a common object better than most.

Then we have original work that moves the boundary of know turned objects. A few examples:
John Lucas- anthropomorphic goblets
Trent Bosch – vessel of illusion
Johannesen Michelson – turned hats

It is quite a thrill to make something no one else is making.
Click to expand...

I don't think you have a concept of what I'm speaking of, Al :D

Probably very few turners do. :(

-----odie-----
 
odie said:
I don't think you have a concept of what I'm speaking of, Al :D
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Kelly people that have had the opportunity to visit the AAW instant gallery
Or take a weekend class with Ellsworth or Bosch or Clewes ..... got their eyes opened to the possibilities as well as the achievement of others.

It is not possible to comprehend from photos or descriptions the pieces in the instant gallery or the possibilities that open up from a weekend immersion in turning.

It would be terrific to see a few of your pieces in Portland.
 
Depending on how a person's brain is wired determines how the individual learns or applies his knowledge and understanding. Many people excel from learning in a visual form compared to others that retain more from reading statistical data and directions. Each of these "thinkers" has an individual method to their madness. I doubt if any one of these "thinkers" can fully grasp how the others observe, retain, and apply the knowledge they have learned. Some people have "Microsoft Windows" operating systems compared to "Apple" operating systems. Each person has custom hardware and software that has been constantly developed and changed starting the day they were conceived.
  • Concrete Thinking vs. Abstract Thinking.
  • Convergent Thinking vs. Divergent Thinking.
  • Creative Thinking vs. Analytical Thinking.
  • Sequential (linear) Thinking vs. Holistic Thinking

 
Well Colin you nailed it. When I look back at some of my early pieces I am amazed. I did not even remotely have the skill I have today or the tools. I did however have determination to build the piece and got it done with whatever was available.
 
Colin Nelson said:
I feel like I've hardly got enough experience to make my comment worth anyone's time...but, perhaps greater than both is "determination" and /or "will". That will make up for a lot of lacking in experience and knowledge.
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A fresh set of eyes and a new perspective are always a good thing. Long time turners learn a lot more from newer turners than one might imagine to be the case. I think that you have stated very succinctly what many of us have taken many words to say.
 
As a rank newbie compared to everyone else who has posted here, I would answer Odie's direct question with "knowledge". Knowledge is much more important to me in making progress.

However, it is how the knowledge is attained that determines how much progress I make. I can gain knowledge by reading forums - frequently adding more confusion than real knowledge. I can read books on turning. I can watch videos, etc, etc. Assuming for the moment that I take something in that I did not know before, I have gained knowledge, and I MAY be able to use that knowledge to progress. I can also gain knowledge by practicing turning. The problem with gaining knowledge by turning is that I may simply reinforce bad habits, and not gain any knowledge at all. (I know turners who are quite happy turning bowls that must be sanded starting at 40 grit.)

As to experience, it can help me make progress, surely. It can also simply cement in all the bad habits that I've developed. With no external source of knowledge, I will make no progress. As an aside, in my previous life as a legislative drafter, my colleagues and I would often criticize the guy who said that he had 10 years experience, when, in fact, he had 1 year's experience repeated over 10 years. Experience, to me, only allows me to make progress if I gain new knowledge from it.

Not to take this too far off topic, Odie, but one of the biggest, almost insurmountable problems with gaining knowledge of woodturning, and therefore having at chance at making progress is the fact that it seems that asking any question about technique, tool choice, sharpening, etc, of 12 turners will get you 13 different and contradictory replies. That said, while I will stick to my position that knowledge is more important to me in making progress, I will say that gaining that knowledge sure as hell is not easy. :-)
 
Grant Wilkinson said:
The problem with gaining knowledge by turning is that I may simply reinforce bad habits, and not gain any knowledge at all. (I know turners who are quite happy turning bowls that must be sanded starting at 40 grit.)
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Ahhh, but if the 40-grit turner is happy then there’s no problem with their level of knowledge. I believe we seek new knowledge in order to solve a real or perceived problem — and — it’s a personal decision and journey. (That I don’t seek to educate myself in a topic should not be subject to criticism unless my lack of knowledge is potentially harmful to others.)

To the main topic, and as others have mentioned up-thread: I don’t believe knowledge and experience are separable; they are intertwined. True knowledge requires past experiences on which to build and become a personally reliable constant, likewise, experience comes from applying past knowledge.

Just my two cents.
 
Grant Wilkinson said:
However, it is how the knowledge is attained that determines how much progress I make. I can gain knowledge by reading forums - frequently adding more confusion than real knowledge. I can read books on turning. I can watch videos, etc, etc. Assuming for the moment that I take something in that I did not know before, I have gained knowledge, and I MAY be able to use that knowledge to progress. I can also gain knowledge by practicing turning. The problem with gaining knowledge by turning is that I may simply reinforce bad habits, and not gain any knowledge at all. (I know turners who are quite happy turning bowls that must be sanded starting at 40 grit.)
Click to expand...

One of the challenges in using information supplied by other turners is putting it in context with the experience and accomplishments of that turner.
When information is supplied through a demonstration, mentoring session, or a class the attendees see first hand the object being created and can assess the skill and knowledge of the presenter.
In the internet The good advice always has a context and the context is not always evident like the context of a demonstration.

One of the hard things to discern is good advice that has limited application.
In this regard I often see advice implied to be universal that is based on success with one or two types of objects.

Be on the lookout for techniques that work for what you want to turn now and in the future.
Techniques that work well on 8-10” salad bowls may not work well on NAtural Edge bowls, hollowforms or 14” salad bowls.

Google the posters from time to time. That will yield som insight into their backgrounds.
 
Proverb: A wise man learns from his mistakes but a genius learns from other’s mistakes.

Experience: I once gave a guy some lessons who had read every book and text on turning and watched every video and dvd available, but he was no better than a raw beginner who’d never seen a lathe before. In fact, I’d go so far as to say he was worse as he had a lot of pre-conceived ideas which simply didn’t work in the real world.

So I’d say you definitely need both to be a well rounded turner/person.
 
I've been turning for 35+ years and still consider myself a "rookie"!
Every time I turn on the lathe, pick up a tool and turn, sand the piece and "finish" it, and shut the machine off, I HAVE learned something every time. If you think you know 90% or more about woodturning, you are sadly mistaken.
As I always say, "get your head out of the shavings" and become more learned and experienced.
As Richard says, "you need both to be a well rounded turner/person!
As Michael Hosslak told me years ago, "I'll tell you everything I know about woodturning on one condition, if you improve upon it, get back to me and tell me how, so I can make it better and get back to you." Pretty good advice and sure improves the learning curve of woodturning. This is how we learn from others too.
 
Just to add to the discussion, I want to point out that you can’t give or receive knowledge. Knowledge is highly personal and built by the application of information and in the process gaining experience. The outcome of the application either falsifies the information or validates it and thus, regardless of the results, builds knowledge. Knowledge vs. experience is a false premise; you can’t have one without the other.
 
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Grant Wilkinson said:
.... one of the biggest, almost insurmountable problems with gaining knowledge of woodturning, and therefore having at chance at making progress is the fact that it seems that asking any question about technique, tool choice, sharpening, etc, of 12 turners will get you 13 different and contradictory replies....
Click to expand...

There are few absolutes in woodturning. An answer that we consider to be "right" in one situation may not work as well in another or as is often the case, there are various ways to accomplish something. Each of us filters information through our unique set of paradigms so the hypothetical question may indeed have thirteen valid answers. Once you have been armed with a wide range of sometimes seemingly contradictory information your challenge then is to make your own decision on how to proceed. You are free to back up and try something else. Learning how to do something by learning how not to do something has a lot of merit because it teaches you the "why" in addition to the "how".

Mike Johnson said:
Chicken or Egg which came first?
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The chicken was first.

image.jpeg
 
Experience and knowledge are like the layers of an onion creating an expanding sphere of proficiency. Sometimes the experience or knowledge is not so well rounded, just like an onion. Occasionally, layers are sort of hollow because a person skipped learning an essential. From which woods turn easy and which are difficult, to simply how to mount a piece on the lathe so the turner can get well finished ends/sides. How to avoid catches and how to get the best finish with the least sanding. Which tools accomplish the end goal without wasting time and effort.
 
"The chicken was first" Well no. that isn't true. eggs have been part of amphibian, reptilian and fish procreation for eons before Chickens came about. I take it you have never tasted caviar or turtle eggs..
 
Perry Hilbert said:
Experience and knowledge are like the layers of an onion creating an expanding sphere of proficiency. Sometimes the experience or knowledge is not so well rounded, just like an onion. Occasionally, layers are sort of hollow because a person skipped learning an essential. From which woods turn easy and which are difficult, to simply how to mount a piece on the lathe so the turner can get well finished ends/sides. How to avoid catches and how to get the best finish with the least sanding. Which tools accomplish the end goal without wasting time and effort.
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There are truths here to be acknowledged.......and, I have a couple of comments. Sometimes wood of the same species do turn entirely differently. Even from the same tree, that could be so. This is one place where experience comes into play. You must be familiar with many techniques, because every single piece of wood has individual characteristics.......try this, and if it doesn't work, then try that, and if that doesn't work, try something else, etc.....until you find what does work. On the other hand, there are times when you get the results you want, with the first effort. Being prepared to alter your course is like having many different arrows in your quiver. :D

The goal of minimal sanding isn't to save time.....it's to achieve geometric integrity. Sanding is what destroys geometric integrity. Geometric integrity is that which makes the details more pleasing to the eye. A casual observer will have no concept of the effort it took to achieve geometric integrity.....but just about everybody will recognize the aesthetic appeal it generates. Sometimes a turner will spend much more time with the tool work, than he would have if the goal is simply to get a sandable surface. With many things regarding refinement, 90% of the work, is accomplishing the last 10% of the objective.:eek:

-----odie-----
 
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Perry Hilbert said:
"The chicken was first" Well no. that isn't true. eggs have been part of amphibian, reptilian and fish procreation for eons before Chickens came about. I take it you have never tasted caviar or turtle eggs..
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It was a tongue in cheek comment about my previous post regarding multiple perspectives on problem solving. One person might be thinking of breakfast while another is thinking of dinner.

Owen Lowe said:
Nope, dinosaurs.
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Fish. :D
 
Bill Boehme said:
A fresh set of eyes and a new perspective are always a good thing. Long time turners learn a lot more from newer turners than one might imagine to be the case. I think that you have stated very succinctly what many of us have taken many words to say.
Click to expand...

I wanted to comment about this earlier, but forgot about it......until now. :)

One of the many ways this forum has helped me, is to interact with the "newbies". They are not yet set in their ways, and have a fresh way of looking at old ways of doing things.....or, being exposed to a new "perspective". Us more experienced turners need to open up and listen a little more than we do. This doesn't mean we have to agree with anything we hear, but as long as we are open to contemplate new ideas and perspectives, we will occasionally be influenced in a good way! :D

-----odie-----
 
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You are fibbing, Raul, because all those bikinis are up north of the 49th where it is snowing right now and cold as h--- and they are cuddling in my shop to keep "warm"!! Of course, with all this snow, Santa will have no trouble landing tomorrow night, hopefully with more turning wood and new tools!
 
The most important is TO CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES AND TO HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN.

Oh wait a minute the question is about wood turning.
 
Bill and Raul, It's winter time here and all the wood is frozen, so Santa can drop it off tonight without landing! The sun is shining and they only ploughed the streets 3 times yesterday. It's like HO! HO! time and all the best to everyone!!
 
Martin Groneng said:
Bill and Raul, It's winter time here and all the wood is frozen, so Santa can drop it off tonight without landing! The sun is shining and they only ploughed the streets 3 times yesterday. It's like HO! HO! time and all the best to everyone!!
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-6° below zero here this morning......but has warmed up to a balmy +7° within the last hour! :rolleyes:

Man, that's a relief.....just can't stand it when it gets cold around here!o_O

-----odie-----
 
Martin Groneng said:
+7, must be nice!! At that temp here, odie, I'd be shovelling my driveway in shorts! Next time I see +7 will be in March, Hopefully.
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:D......Lucky me!
 
I spent three years living in very southern Florida. When it dropped to 55 degrees, local folks got out the winter coats, scarves and gloves. Northerners put on sweaters and folks from Canada still wore their bathing suits. in January , 1977 (IIRC) there were snow flurries in North Miami and schools closed for the kids to go out and see it. There were traffic jams trying to get to the areas where the flurries were sighted.

Here in PA, on Christmas, it is about 38 degrees. Had snow, freezing rain and sleet last night, but no accumulation. It was very blustery until about 30 mins ago. Guess it is time to distribute treats to the livestock. Apple for the horse, oranges for the cattle and parsnips for the sheep. roasted some beef bones for the dogs and turkey fat for the barn cats. Late dinner today. Kids won't be home from work until 7 pm.
 
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