Where is wood turning going?

[Hu Lowery]

Thank You ALL!

Generally when an internet thread gets derailed it heads down hill. Instead every twist and turn this thread has taken has been a big help!

I read Kelly's response to my pictures a few hours ago. Had to admit I agreed with him 100%. No guts, no gory I always say and what needed cleaning up was near the base, maybe things hadn't ran around too much in less than 24 hours. Just chucked it back in the recess with no good way to reverse chuck it at the moment. Cut away the lump of wood on the bottom, then I cut away a fair amount of the recess.

The piece is far better after this. I had settled for "good enuff" which never is really good enough. When I have more time and patience or a better set-up I will probably turn a foot out of the outer edge of the old dome. Until then the rim left from the old recess is the foot although it is far too big to balance with the rest of the piece. I did cut about half of the recess away but bearing in mind I was sawing on the board I was standing on . . . The dome outside rim might be a little small for a foot but I'm running out of wood in the bottom of that piece, don't think there is any wood left for a foot in the deepest recess which is where I would like a foot to be.

I try to get wings either dead level or far enough off level it is obvious that was the intent. The wings on this piece are level within a sixteenth or less when it is sitting on a hard surface. Partially a fluke, I don't strive for that close!

The piece looks airy and light, feels the same way when you pick it up now. Not fragile at all, thickness ranges from 3/16" near the top of the wings to 5/16" at the base of the wings now.

A storm was moving in and I'm afraid the cell phone pictures are even worse than usual. I tried to take them at similar angles to the first one and added an image upside down to show things a little clearer.

Many many thanks to every one of you. As always the mentoring the members of this forum provide is a huge help to me!

Hu

 

[hockenbery]

Hu,
Think about what to do differently on the next bowl!

The limits forced on you by the recess grip go away if you use a tenon grip.
Or a glue block
or a faceplate if you can envision the bottom coming down between the screws.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hu,

That is a very good recovery. I think that the iPhone takes rather remarkable pictures considering its size.

I was reluctant to say anything discouraging to a new turner, but Kelly was brave enough to give an honest assessment that matched my initial reaction. One other thing that I ought to add is that the turning is far above what I would expect to see from a beginner. You have mentioned previously that you are a fast learner and your work confirms that statement. I am glad that you received the comments with an open mind. Since you are interested in creating pieces for a higher end market, you can expect to receive critiques that are far more intense than what you would receive here. It's just part of the dues of gaining peer recognition as an artist.

I also understand and support what MM said. You have to start somewhere. There are no rigid "rules" that you must follow, but there are some gentle guidelines that came into being because they supposedly do help create more pleasing forms to the more serious collector. As a beginner, I personally think that it is a good idea to aim for creating a piece that conforms to some of the design guidelines because it helps considerably to have a clear picture of where you want to wind up before you start out. Otherwise, how will you know if you got to your intended destination (or just a stopping point when there is no more wood to be removed).



I made some marks on your bowl with a couple suggestions about the foot. Most important is that a crisp corner keeps the eye from following the curve down into the foot. A crisp corner will help the eye to imagine the curve continuing on to the other side of the foot. The foot is a bit tall, but not really bad. It is also a bit large. I would favor something about the diameter of the center bump.

I marked an area with thin yellow lines where it appears that there is a hump in the curve on the bottom. This is drifting into the nit picking area and looking at a picture can be misleading so take this comment with a grain of salt.

 

[Hu Lowery]

Thank You Al, Bill, and Michael, and all again!

First a word about critiques. Honest critiques are the very best thing I can get right now. When I offer my work for sale I won't be judged as a beginner, just another turner. "Not bad for a beginner" doesn't cut it. My instant reaction to Kelly's post was that he was right and I had settled for something I wasn't really pleased with myself. I was very glad he posted what he did, and very happy to see the follow-ups from others when I came back inside from turning what I could off of the form.

This was my first attempt at this form and I did indeed learn from it. The next one will be better and hopefully continual progress with every piece. I'm going to have to take time to build things to hold my piece better when I reverse it before I go on with turning, just been one of those roundtuit things.

Bill, The lump marked in yellow is the pith of the limb. It was good and tight with no checking so I left it in this piece. The issue seems to be a dip above the pith where the wood warped differently. Running my hands over the piece this morning after it dried some I am rapidly falling out of love with it. I was going to try to fix more on it but I don't think I will be happy with it regardless, guess I'll just toss it on my wall of shame, pieces I don't quite like or the ones that broke. I'm not really ashamed of any of them, just a play on words with Hall of Fame. Counting this morning, seventeen pieces up there! 😀

I deliberately rounded the outer corner of the foot where you marked trying to make it look more ornamental and less obviously how I held the piece. I'll remember about the square corner breaking the flow and letting the imagination continue it while a curved joining causes a flow into the new shape. I do need to learn the general rules and guidelines governing 3D art design. Nothing wrong with breaking the rules sometimes but that is far different than blundering around not knowing them.

Al, I learn from almost every piece. The next piece like this will have a tenon, I don't like my faceplate or gluing extremely wet wood. I want some better faceplates but the one that came with this lathe is a pretty nasty casting with some long slots to hold four quarter inch or bigger bolts. No way to help it much, just need to buy better. Until then it works for large pieces and I have the screw chuck and chuck for smaller pieces. I started this one on a screw chuck and with the tailstock in place.

I'm still very much at the stage that every piece is a practice piece. If I have a nice finished piece when I am done I am happy but if I just learn a few things along the way and the piece dies I don't feel too bad.

Michael, this weather had me fighting with the satellite all week, no cable out here. I couldn't get the images to open when you posted them. I just looked at the jpg's you posted. Beautiful stuff and definitely shows off asymmetrical! Very nice bottom treatment and does start the wheels turning in my head. Thank you for taking the time to post all of those links.

The information provided by one and all of you is always vastly appreciated. Please never hesitate to post forthright comments. While I am a long ways from being the peer of any of you, peer style review is a huge help.

Hu

 

[KellyDunn]

Hu,anything and everyhting you need to know about turning can be found in a few forums. Hands on with another turner is best. But if you cant do that then practice. A simple way to reverse a piece like this a soft item, even a sanding pad in the headstock. Put the bowl inside on that and bring up the tailstock to the bowl bottom. Turn and sand leaving a nub. Carve the nub off and sand.
I want to address perfection that you brought up in a private email. It does not exist. If you strive for perfection where do you go when you get there? If you strive for excellance your path is always open. You will do pieces that you will stand back and maybe even use the term perfect. And maybe others will say the same thing. Take both your own and others words and thoughts and tell yourself you did good. The constant striving for excellance to be honest is hard enough to do. Let alone thinking of perfection. Which will only defeat the soul with its impossibility.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hu, when turning a natural edged winged bowl, the way that I begin is between centers in order to first balance the piece and then to adjust it so that the wing tips are in the same vertical plane and finally so that the low points on both sides are passing through the same vertical plane. All of these three adjustments interact so it will require a few iterations to satisfy all conditions reasonably closely. Once adjusted to your satisfaction, you can turn a tenon (I put a tenon on both sides) and do some initial shaping. Even though interrupted cuts are easier to do at high speed, I would forgo that convenience for safety's sake and make sure that your tools are sharp.

Some species of green wood will allow you to turn a piece that includes the pith with some assurance that it won't self destruct, but most won't. A winged bowl is far easier to control the form if you begin with a half log. In addition to the pith problem when using the full diameter of a log, there is the problem of maintaining a good overall form. What typically happens in this case is something where the wings stick straight up and the overall shape lacks a smooth continuous curve -- typically has three distinct curves that are not pleasing to the eye.

I like Kelly's comments about perfection. What is perfection anyway and pretending for a moment that it existed, would I know it if I saw it? Probably not. I can tell you what I like, but that is about it.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

perfection = infinity

by definition neither can be achieved

 

[Hu Lowery]

"It was a dark and stormy night"

perfection = infinity

by definition neither can be achieved

Charlie,

It was on a dark and stormy night some years back that I achieved perfection after fifteen years of better shooters trying. I also turned ten perfect laps one night to the frustration of eight or ten drivers of faster cars behind me. We can't maintain it for any length of time but for a shining moment here and there we can achieve perfection in one area. If I ever turn a piece and think there is absolutely nothing I would change even if I could, then that object will represent a perfect turning to me. Gotta admit, it may never happen. My standards are pretty high.

Hu

 

[Hu Lowery]

Thank You Both Once Again!

Hu,anything and everyhting you need to know about turning can be found in a few forums. Hands on with another turner is best. But if you cant do that then practice. A simple way to reverse a piece like this a soft item, even a sanding pad in the headstock. Put the bowl inside on that and bring up the tailstock to the bowl bottom. Turn and sand leaving a nub. Carve the nub off and sand.
I want to address perfection that you brought up in a private email. It does not exist. If you strive for perfection where do you go when you get there? If you strive for excellance your path is always open. You will do pieces that you will stand back and maybe even use the term perfect. And maybe others will say the same thing. Take both your own and others words and thoughts and tell yourself you did good. The constant striving for excellance to be honest is hard enough to do. Let alone thinking of perfection. Which will only defeat the soul with its impossibility.

Kelly,

I do have a pretty tall dummy block that I have used a few times. It was a spur of the moment thing though and the part that goes into the chuck isn't round or square, a rectangle that I crushed a couple corners on and made do when I needed something to turn a wet hollow vessel on the fly. I'm going to make upgrades in the next day or two. I whittled some pads out of the gray foam floor mats often used to stand on a long time. So far they haven't marred or damaged anything.

I think that your striving for excellence and my striving for perfection are the same thing with just different words. I try for perfection while doing something but once it is done I can say without qualification that it came out nice if it did. I accept that perfection will rarely be obtained but I chase it all over again next time. I am not seeking perfection in everything I do, just for the next few minutes or few hours in a project.

I haven't been seeking perfection turning wood so far, just trying to gain knowledge and experience with each turning and accepting whatever result I got. At this point I think I want to turn some simple pieces with a firm goal of excellence in the final product. The process and focus on the process remains the same while turning, just a shift in expectations. I think that will feedback into not accepting something as good enough when it isn't. What I am trying to say is that I think I have been a little lax in my expectations from my turnings sometimes and I want to demand a little more than I have demanded of myself in the past.



Bill,

My goal is to finish what I envisioned without flaws and without having to resort to unplanned methods to do it. That is my personal version of a perfectly executed piece. As you point out, perfection of the piece itself is in the eye of the beholder. Another issue is that I can't turn out the same piece over and over and hope to sell it. Perfection in the process is what I seek. Excellence would be just as good of a word. I don't want to look at completed work and see where my process was lacking.

I understand what you are saying about truing up the piece and half sections of the log being easier to work with. I made my discoveries about shaping the base with the wood falling away on the backside of the log or branch during this project.(where is the emoticon for ruefully shaking your head?) One of my areas I have been lax in sometimes is planning out the piece before starting. The plan may change on the fly but a lack of planning for things that were easily foreseeable has bitten me too many times in the past. That is particularly annoying to me because it should be an area I am strong in.

Had I used this limb down to just before the pith it would have balanced pretty well. Deciding to use the area where it was irregularly shaped near the present base made the piece more complicated than it needed to be without any added quality to the finished product. I just went and looked the piece over again. I think I did pull off the continuous curve of the rim pretty well this time. very slightly tighter in the bottom third but that is looking with a very critical eye. Everything does appear to flow nicely.


I took a break from the computer to try to turn a new version of this piece to discuss. The open porch workshop got me when a rain storm blew in. A couple of rain delays and then a lightning bolt that seemed like it was down the back of my neck made me decide I didn't want to be standing by a big chunk of steel with a steel tool in my hand.

I know, no dedication to the cause . . . 🙂

Hu

 

[hockenbery]

I understand what you are saying about truing up the piece and half sections of the log being easier to work with. I made my discoveries about shaping the base with the wood falling away on the backside of the log or branch during this project.(where is the emoticon for ruefully shaking your head?) One of my areas I have been lax in sometimes is planning out the piece before starting. The plan may change on the fly but a lack of planning for things that were easily foreseeable has bitten me too many times in the past. That is particularly annoying to me because it should be an area I am strong in.

Had I used this limb down to just before the pith it would have balanced pretty well. Deciding to use the area where it was irregularly shaped near the present base made the piece more complicated than it needed to be without any added quality to the finished product. I just went and looked the piece over again. I think I did pull off the continuous curve of the rim pretty well this time. very slightly tighter in the bottom third but that is looking with a very critical eye. Everything does appear to flow nicely.

Hu

I sometimes turn bowls from a whole limb to capture some unusual bark edge curves.
They are fun to turn and a little unusual.
I get two piths in the side walls. These will pucker out as the dry. The effect is a bump on the outside and a matching concave on the inside.
If the walls are in the neighborhood of 3/16" to 1/8" the warp effect is not displeasing. I know what I will get from the wood. You know too.

Partly I like to turn a whole limb because a good friend says you should never turn limbs and never leave the pith in.
That is by the way generally good advice but worth ignoring now and then.

Have fun,
Al

 

[Hu Lowery]

fun is a key portion

I sometimes turn bowls from a whole limb to capture some unusual bark edge curves.
They are fun to turn and a little unusual.
I get two piths in the side walls. These will pucker out as the dry. The effect is a bump on the outside and a matching concave on the inside.
If the walls are in the neighborhood of 3/16" to 1/8" the warp effect is not displeasing. I know what I will get from the wood. You know too.

Partly I like to turn a whole limb because a good friend says you should never turn limbs and never leave the pith in.
That is by the way generally good advice but worth ignoring now and then.

Have fun,
Al

Al,

Fun is a key portion of what I want from turning. That means I will always be turning things I maybe shouldn't and trying things that may not work. I need to complete a reasonable amount of successful projects but without the unusual stuff turning wood wouldn't be any more fun than churning out parts in the machine shop. I kinda like doing that but it would be stretching it to call the machine work fun. Being able to tweak a friend turning things I shouldn't would just make it that much sweeter. The machine shop is too far away to work there regularly now anyway so I'm committed to the wood. I feel pretty good about where I am headed so far.

The way you and the other very skilled turners on this forum have given so freely of their time and advice has been and continues to be a huge benefit to me. I do reread these threads top to bottom now and then just as reminders. I am very appreciative of the time and effort you have put into helping me.

Hu

 

[Gretch Flo]

Equal sides on a nat'l edge bowl

Frankly, I like the sides uneven, but then maybe I'm a little warped!!!!😀 Gretch

 

[Hu Lowery]

Whale . . .

Frankly, I like the sides uneven, but then maybe I'm a little warped!!!!😀 Gretch

Whale, I'll have to admit some folks have considered me a half bubble off plumb now and then! I like them uneven too. I'll let the wood and the customers dictate what I turn the most of but seems like natural edges should have a lot of character. Gotta square some up just to have a few on display to prove I can though. Kinda like the bowls, some badly warped looks cool, every one of them badly warped and people will probably realize it makes a statement about me. I'll drink the fifth if I have to though, I'm not badly warped!

Hu

 

[MichaelMouse]

Couple thoughts. When the wood's wet, it will be moving after you're done cutting. Since the heart's down, it'll bow outward a bit on the bottom. Which is why I don't make sharp transitions there. You'll be running your block plane over the area to make it sit straight, and the clean line of demarcation will be closer to the table on the endgrain than the sides. Why I give a gentle ~1/8" lifting curve instead. Difference is less noticeable.

Second thought. Branches are constructed a bit differently when the tree is in the open than the forest. Not much reaction wood on the forest models, plenty on the open growth. Makes a prettier piece to use that reaction wood. You're going to let it warp anyway, right? The little cherry branch I posted, which looked quite pretty when finished, as you can imagine from the quick look with a damp wipe shown. Play that a couple times to see what happens. Limbs reaching for the sky are almost symmetrical in their shape and load, but sometimes you just have to say "pith on it" and show off. The multihole monstrosity (which sold almost instantly, BTW) has a branch pith obvious., and this IS a branch.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Beech.jpg Little too much bottom.

One of my favorites. ~8" across, sitting on one. Tops are level, I guess. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Beech-Wing.jpg

Cut thin and you'll lose few.

 

[Hu Lowery]

yard tree

Couple thoughts. When the wood's wet, it will be moving after you're done cutting. Since the heart's down, it'll bow outward a bit on the bottom. Which is why I don't make sharp transitions there. You'll be running your block plane over the area to make it sit straight, and the clean line of demarcation will be closer to the table on the endgrain than the sides. Why I give a gentle ~1/8" lifting curve instead. Difference is less noticeable.

Second thought. Branches are constructed a bit differently when the tree is in the open than the forest. Not much reaction wood on the forest models, plenty on the open growth. Makes a prettier piece to use that reaction wood. You're going to let it warp anyway, right? The little cherry branch I posted, which looked quite pretty when finished, as you can imagine from the quick look with a damp wipe shown. Play that a couple times to see what happens. Limbs reaching for the sky are almost symmetrical in their shape and load, but sometimes you just have to say "pith on it" and show off. The multihole monstrosity (which sold almost instantly, BTW) has a branch pith obvious., and this IS a branch.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Beech.jpg Little too much bottom.

One of my favorites. ~8" across, sitting on one. Tops are level, I guess. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Beech-Wing.jpg

Cut thin and you'll lose few.

My brother's neighbor had a large limb threatening another neighbor's car. This wood is some of that front yard limb and it was reported to me that the limb jumped upward a foot when the first trimming was done so I knew there was a lot of stress in this wood.

These things remind me of a propeller from some angles so I'm kinda pondering how I could turn one to try to get it to warp into a twist. Maybe help mother nature a little too.

Your pieces and the advice in your post are both great, exactly what I expect from you! Thank You so much for your time taken to help me.

Hu

 

[Hu Lowery]

Take two, trying again

I had cut this section of the sycamore with the idea of getting two turnings out of that section of limb, the other piece was just laying there . . .

I roughed it in last night and had to stop. While these wings are about a full inch shallower than the first set from the adjoining section of the limb I had really intended a little flatter still. Hard to get past the "wasting good wood" mentality. As the picture shows I did leave a big enough waste block on bottom that I won't be fighting with my chuck jaws for room to work.

The white area at the top of one wing is just how the sycamore bark naturally peels the very top layer in places and extends about three inches. This piece is currently about a half inch wider than the other set of wings and right now about an inch shallower as mentioned. The black mark on the waste is a witness mark to line the piece up in the chuck exactly as it was.

Health has dictated I take a day or three off from turning, I never know how long. I'm sure I will be cleaning up warpage by the time I get the wood back on the lathe but assuming I have anything extra to work with I will try to flatten the lines of the piece a little more. This is a blander piece of wood and should work a little easier than the last piece but at the usual cost of being a little less interesting when completed.

I would be very happy to hear any thoughts concerning where I am at now with the piece and where I should go with it.

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

..... Hard to get past the "wasting good wood" mentality.....

Just think of it from the perspective of "there is a bowl/platter/whatnot in there and I just need to find it". 😀

If the interior is about where you want it, you can work on the outside. This means that you will have a much longer tenon, but that is not a problem.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

turning limbs and crotches.....saw Warren Carpenter's rotation and some of his pieces at the nc symposium in 2011......i would have sworn everyone of his turnings should have cracked.....pretty neat what he does

 

[Hu Lowery]

hoping to stretch the width, shrink the height

Just think of it from the perspective of "there is a bowl/platter/whatnot in there and I just need to find it". 😀

If the interior is about where you want it, you can work on the outside. This means that you will have a much longer tenon, but that is not a problem.

Bill,

I'm hoping to bring the interior wall as far out as possible at the top and bring the exterior wall up on the bottom creating a longer tenon as you mention. Trying to flatten out the curve of the rim maybe another half inch or more. Pretty confident with the Talon chuck once I get things balanced and much of the weight off like this, just need to see what I have to work with and get to it.

Simple shape and no knots or other issues to fight with but I had a hard time getting this shape to flow for some reason. Might need to sneak a backer of some kind between the piece and the background so I can see the edges better. I was cutting a lot by feel and sound. Came out beautiful in some areas, not so purty in others! By no means the first time cutting like that but I just didn't seem to have my ducks in a row yesterday. Fingers crossed, I might be able to turn awhile in the morning.


Charlie,

I just visited Warren Carpenter's gallery. That is indeed some amazing stuff! I am trying to improve my touch and finesse, one reason for playing with things like the wings aside from just needing a little variety. I still have a very long ways to go before I can hope for something like Warren is turning to live! One thing about being new to wood turning though, I can do things now I couldn't do even weeks ago. That gives me hope that somewhere down the road I will have improved enough to turn most things I lay hands on. I have a good sized cherry stump and root ball available right now. I'll bring it here but I know I can't do it justice yet.

Thank You Bill and Charlie. As always, your posts are much appreciated!

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

I think that after a couple more, you will have a pretty good intuitive feel of what works and what to avoid when coming up with a design on these winged bowls. The first time that I tried making a winged bowl, I tried to use the full diameter of the piece of wood. It took me quite a while to tumble that stinker out.

 

[James Seyfried]

wing bowl design

Seeing that this thread has morphed a little into winged bowl design and I've been trying to make some. Here are a couple that survived; both are from trees that fell in recent storms. I think I like the shape of the first one better, but it is flawed with a slight crease about 1/3 of the way in, just after where it is a full bowl. It is easier to feel it than see. I kept trying to turn it out, the tall wall seemed to flex and the short one got a little thin. I think it is elm. The second is the largest bowl I've turned, it is about 14 x 9 x 8/9 tall (wings are different height). I'm not sure what kind of wood it is. Overall I got the inside curve better and the outside seems to be a smooth curve. I think it is a little tall. Is there guidelines or rule of thumb as to the proportions of winged bowls. And do these very from winged bowls and standard ones?

One thing I might add to but this somewhat back on topic. I've been a woodworker off and on all my life. I've had a Sears tube lathe that I have used for 30 years. About 2 years ago I got a Powermatic lathe, some better tools and a sharpening system. That really improved my turning experience. However, I think my biggest improvement in efficiency and confidence turning was from spending one day at a demo and another at a workshop by David Ellisworth. I was fortunate to be able to do this at the MAW facility; another great resource for learning. I also think it helped having read his book before the demo. If I get the opportunity to get training from other top turners I'll read their books first too.

 

[hockenbery]

James,
Those bowls look quite nice!

I had the good fortune to have a five day class with David about 17 years ago.
What a difference it made for me!

One thing I have learned with natural edge pieces is that as you hollow some bowls open up a tiny bit as you cut through a tension wood.
I always finish the walls about 2" at a time leaving the wall thicker below the finished thickness. Cutting the transition lines away as I hollow deeper.
As a result, On occasions I will turn away the transition line on only one side. If this happens i stop trying to turn away the transition line because it will make one side too thin. This may be what threw your one bowl off a bit.
Once the bowl is dry I blend the line in with sanding. It only takes a few minutes power sanding and 3" discs.

Great bowls,

Al

 

[Hu Lowery]

like the weather!

James,

This thread is like the weather, if you don't like it give it a little while and it'll change! Those are some very nice looking bowls. I'm sure Al is right about trying to battle after movement. I just finished my second attempt and in a weak moment went back to the tips when about 3/4 of my piece was invisible. I spent most of my sanding time sanding out those gouges. 😱 I'm still at the stage where knowing better doesn't stop me from trying something. Then I feel like a dummy when it doesn't work.

Somebody recommended turning five of anything when learning in another thread. Maybe Al, I don't remember at the moment. I think that is great advice even when I have to admit I have trouble following it. I learned from the mistakes working on the first set of wings turning the second set, but I found some all new mistakes to make too!

As expected when I rechucked this piece this morning before the big hot got here I needed to clean up the outside. Wanted to flatten it some anyway so I took close to a half inch off the bottom then spent another thirty minutes or so getting the curve faired enough to suit me and the surface smooth enough that I might be able to start at 220. I had rough hollowed the night before so I started working down in inch wide or a bit wider sections, cutting invisible wood. The first section was angled exactly how I had planned when I started the piece and smooth as a baby's bottom. A great start except for one little minor detail, the shape in no way resembled the outside shape! When I looked more closely I realized I wouldn't improve much on the shape of the first set of wings if I hollowed to match the outside shape. With a quick farewell to my nicely finished surface shape on the outside I whacked a bunch more off the bottom. Almost too bunch, I got it a little thin at the side rim and a little too flat, had to fight that the rest of the time turning.

Same width as the last one within a quarter inch, an inch and a half shorter. Very thin, around an eighth inch. I did lose a little bark at the top of a wing when the tenon broke on a restart. Unexpected, don't know why, it was about 3/4" diameter still and the piece was very light at that point. Had thought I was ready to knock the tenon off when I cut it that small then decided the inside bottom area could stand a little leveling . . .

hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

Seeing that this thread has morphed a little into winged bowl design and I've been trying to make some. Here are a couple that survived; both are from trees that fell in recent storms. I think I like the shape of the first one better, ...

The curvature of the first one is nice, but I see a couple things that make me prefer the second one. First, it appears that on the near side, the low point is much lower than on the opposite side. Second, the flat bottom interrupts the flowing curve that should go from wingtip to wingtip and from side to side.

The second one has a nice curve on the inside. The only thing that I don't like is that it appears that the bottom appears to be much thicker than at the edge. There is not really anything wrong with it being thicker closer to the foot, but I prefer that it not be enough to be noticeable from a arms length distance. Since a flat photo can be misleading, what I see in the photo might not be how the piece looks "in person".

Given that the rim has a constant thickness, it leaves some doubt in my mind about my previous observation of this bowl. With this kind of bowl, a constant thickness rim is a pretty good indicator of constant wall thickness unless some blending was done by sanding.

 

[James Seyfried]

James,
Those bowls look quite nice!

I had the good fortune to have a five day class with David about 17 years ago.
What a difference it made for me!

With woodturning done solitary you don't get the chance to learn from others like with carpentry. It's can be that way with fine carpentry but still you use skills that are common to woodwork. However, woodturning is a whole different ballgame. So for many it is just trial and error and that can take a long time and still be inefficient. I know the Internet has changed that somewhat but like with everything else you have to sift through the miss-information. I know if i get the chance I would benefit from more classes.

One thing I have learned with natural edge pieces is that as you hollow some bowls open up a tiny bit as you cut through a tension wood.
I always finish the walls about 2" at a time leaving the wall thicker below the finished thickness. Cutting the transition lines away as I hollow deeper.
As a result, On occasions I will turn away the transition line on only one side. If this happens i stop trying to turn away the transition line because it will make one side too thin. This may be what threw your one bowl off a bit.
Once the bowl is dry I blend the line in with sanding. It only takes a few minutes power sanding and 3" discs.

Great bowls,

Al

Thanks Al!

I will definitely give that method a try on my next one. And I think what you described is exactly what happened.

 

[James Seyfried]

The curvature of the first one is nice, but I see a couple things that make me prefer the second one. First, it appears that on the near side, the low point is much lower than on the opposite side. Second, the flat bottom interrupts the flowing curve that should go from wingtip to wingtip and from side to side.

The second one has a nice curve on the inside. The only thing that I don't like is that it appears that the bottom appears to be much thicker than at the edge. There is not really anything wrong with it being thicker closer to the foot, but I prefer that it not be enough to be noticeable from a arms length distance. Since a flat photo can be misleading, what I see in the photo might not be how the piece looks "in person".

Given that the rim has a constant thickness, it leaves some doubt in my mind about my previous observation of this bowl. With this kind of bowl, a constant thickness rim is a pretty good indicator of constant wall thickness unless some blending was done by sanding.

Bill you are right, both about pictures being deceiving and the bottom of the larger bowl being thicker than the walls. The thickness is about the same as far as you can feel in, but there is a two-inch band one inch from the center that is twice as thick. But the center in is just slightly thicker than the wall because of the concave shape. The bottom is thicker on the smaller one, but the wall thickness is closer to being the same down to the bottom. I retook some pictures and tried to shoot squarely for the profile picture. They still don’t appear as they do actually looking at them.

To remove the tool marks I used the hand scrapers pictured. My 2â€disk holder (only one I have) won’t hold sandpaper any more so I thought I’d try hand scrappers and in my opinion worked rather well. The exteriors weren’t that bad. Probably because I’m better at shear scraping than I am at an interior finish cut. I kind of like that they will show low and high spots and won’t dig out soft fibers like sand paper can. Now with the proper sized disk holders and sandpaper, I might change my tune.

I look at these and a few others and they all seem to be somewhat too steep at the wing tips. Then I look at some standard ones that I have drying and they don’t seem that way. I’m wondering if there is movement in drying or more in the way I make them.

 

[James Seyfried]

Ok I tried again. First I answered my own question on the bowl shape...a bigger log is going to give a fuller shape. I took Al's advice and went a couple of inches at a time when finishing the inside. I also didn't keep fussing with it, I got it as smooth as I could and then moved on. I think it is somewhat like the same principle with finishing drywall...the more you mess with it the more mess you make. I also paid attention to what Bill said and tried to keep the wall thickness consistent down to near the foot. Overall I am pleased with the appearance of this one, I really like the wood grain. I kept the walls a little thicker at just under 1/4". Curious enough, one half of the rim looks real consistent and the other you can see some difference.

We had some storms that brought down some trees a few weeks ago. I helped a friend with some and now I have plenty of wood to practice with! 😀

 

[Bill Boehme]

Nice work and nice stash.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I look at these and a few others and they all seem to be somewhat too steep at the wing tips. Then I look at some standard ones that I have drying and they don’t seem that way. I’m wondering if there is movement in drying or more in the way I make them.

Steeper doesn't display as much bark as shallow, because it is normally cut straight through. On something like willow, with its thick bark, no problem, but beech, where there's maybe a quarter inch, there's really nothing to display. One of your choices to make. I began making flatter ones to put my "business" cards in at shows, and found out they sold faster than the swoops. Plus, as the branches are structured, there's less space between rings on the bottom, so you can use the upper, more normal wood above center for something else, and the gnarly uncooperative stuff can be cut heart down.

You can even see the difference in bark where the slope of the wing is different, as in this cherry piece. Further down, the cut is more vertical, and it looks thinner. Which, BTW, is one reason why using calipers to get uniform thickness is even less important on these pieces than others. Leave extra thickness and weight at the bottom if you turn real thin, or they become airborne.

Even when you go out of your way to make a broad piece, as with this maple, the cutting/viewing angles will fool your eye into thinking thickness varies where it doesn't. So make it look good and leave the number crunching to someone who thinks that's important. Like the endless discussion of what two degrees difference in the the sharpness angle of gouge X should be, it really doesn't matter much.

 

[hockenbery]

. Overall I am pleased with the appearance of this one, I really like the wood grain. I kept the walls a little thicker at just under 1/4". D

I like the bowl and the grain pattern you are showing.

I like the effect of the sap rings on natural edge bowls. I would rather have a contrasting sap ring than bark.
A couple of points. Turn those bowls soon or the sap ring will begin to discolor and won't be as dramatic.
I store some blanks in the freezer wrapped in plastic trash bags to prevent freeze drying this keeps the wood nice for years.

When I cut blanks I orient th log so the pith will,be centered side to side in the blank.

I start between centers
With large bowls my first alignment is for weight I shift the tail center until,the bowl does not drop one side to the bottom rapidly when spun a little by hand.

After roughing to the rim, I set high points of the rim equal by shifting the tail center ( I usually remove the center pin so small chAnges can be made)
Then set the low points of the rim and/or line up the grain to get the circles in the middle - these are usually two different place unless the tree was totally round.

For grain circles centered in the bottom I put the tail center in the middle of the same grow ring.
When changing the tail center to align the grain or low rim edges it is important to orient the high points in a line parallel to the floor an rotate them together as you bring the low points or grain into alignment. If you are careful this will not change the high point relationship, however I alway check it again and tweak if necessary.

I usually favor the circle in the middle more than low rim height equality.
If this makes the rim too unequal is split the difference.

When you get the circles way off line it sort of distracts the eye and the bowl doesn't look as good as one with the grain circles centered.

Have fun.

 

[Hu Lowery]

two and three

Wings two got a bit lost in a post above and I turned wings three this morning. A passing rain storm reminded me there are certain handicaps to having a shop as big as the great outdoors so three is actually a work in progress. Needs more sanding and I plan to trim that large foot ring into three small feet . . . . somehow! Ain't quite sure how and that is sneaking towards embellishment. The back rim isn't nearly as rough as it looks in the image when holding it in hand, all the bark is still there.

To give some idea of how the distortion of the camera lies the bottom two pieces are the same width to within a quarter inch. From the bottom up the pieces are wings two, wings one, and wings three. Wings three was deliberately back to a higher walled design and measures seven wide by four high. Hoping it looks pretty good with the feet but it may have needed to be still taller.

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

So Hu, we share the same shop? I guess the reason that I haven't sen you is that you are a bit over the horizon from my corner of the shop.

I found this picture of a natural edge bowl that I turned about six years ago (I took the picture in 2010). I actually thought that it looked nice perhaps as recently as three years ago, I suppose. It doesn't really qualify as a winged bowl, but at least I won't worry about it toppling over with that elephant foot. 😀 I guess that my point is that our perspectives about form in woodturning are continuously evolving as we continue our journey.

 

[Hu Lowery]

just kinda blah

So Hu, we share the same shop? I guess the reason that I haven't sen you is that you are a bit over the horizon from my corner of the shop.

I found this picture of a natural edge bowl that I turned about six years ago (I took the picture in 2010). I actually thought that it looked nice perhaps as recently as three years ago, I suppose. It doesn't really qualify as a winged bowl, but at least I won't worry about it toppling over with that elephant foot. 😀 I guess that my point is that our perspectives about form in woodturning are continuously evolving as we continue our journey.

Bill,

What I have strikes me as not terrible, not great. didn't get it tall enough for the original idea. Will probably help it some if I get the small feet cut out successfully but it isn't going to be an impact piece regardless. Kinda vanilla.

Despite the way everything looks in the cell phone pictures wall thickness is about 3/16" according to actual measure, not superthin but thin enough for the size of the piece I believe. Tried to put a double curve into the footing kinda like the eagle claw bathtubs. If I take the feet down really small 3/16" round neighborhood at bottom, will thin CA keep people from breaking them off handling it first thing?

Right now the footing is about 2-3/4" OD at the bowl and close to 3-1/4" OD at the bottom. I could probably get a small ring down to about 2-1/4" or a bit less if I didn't try the feet, or if they fail. Not going to be a tiny ring regardless but the rest of the shape doesn't really call for one. I'll probably at least try roughing in some feet before I give up on the idea, like almost everything I do this piece is another first. I haven't tried anything this elaborate for the foot before. It is already hollowed out inside which limits my options a bit.

I did a little prowling around from the link you posted. Seems we both have or had an interest in photography. I'm trying to find a battery for my 10D which tells you it has been awhile since I have upgraded camera equipment. It was working fine before Isaac though. Neither the batteries I found or the charger swam well. If I ever find my software to load on this machine it is CS too, the original CS. Would still be a huge jump from only being able to crop and size. Loaned a friend my macro tripod and ballhead years ago, it might still be around. Would be great for product shoots and the carbon fiber would be a big help toting it from the spare bedroom to the dining room/office to take pictures! 😀

Found a picture somebody took of me at Lake Martin. You can see why it can be hard to communicate with me sometimes. I'm the one with the other photographer shooting through my head, in one ear, out the other, think it probably worked like a macro tube!

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

There are a zillion different perspectives about feet. My typical aim is to give the turning a bit of lift off the shelf, but not have the foot itself be a design feature noticeable enough that draws the viewers attention away from the turning.

I see that you and your friend are both canon shooters. Is that lens a 100 - 400 zoom? If your friend is a macro shooter maybe he sees a gnat on your ear ... not saying which one. 😀

Is that Martin Creek Reservoir in Texas? If so, were you looking for bald eagles? I was there once, but we did not spot any eagles.One of the gals that went with us saw a buzzard and was positive that it was a bald eagle. Propably the firtst time that buzzard has had its picture printed and framed and hung on the wall. 😀

 

[Hu Lowery]

Lake Martin

There are a zillion different perspectives about feet. My typical aim is to give the turning a bit of lift off the shelf, but not have the foot itself be a design feature noticeable enough that draws the viewers attention away from the turning.

I see that you and your friend are both canon shooters. Is that lens a 100 - 400 zoom? If your friend is a macro shooter maybe he sees a gnat on your ear ... not saying which one. 😀

Is that Martin Creek Reservoir in Texas? If so, were you looking for bald eagles? I was there once, but we did not spot any eagles.One of the gals that went with us saw a buzzard and was positive that it was a bald eagle. Propably the firtst time that buzzard has had its picture printed and framed and hung on the wall. 😀

Bill,

Lake Martin, near Breax Bridge LA, was one of the biggest wading bird rookeries in the US. The vegetation maturing and harassment have largely killed off the rookery. Now after decades of absolutely no facilities, with the rookery gone they have put in a visitor center and all kinds of nice stuff from what I hear.

That was the 100-400. I used it and the 1.4? converter a lot. Flight shots but some nest stuff too. I was watching a nest waiting for something more interesting than I already had while the other photographer found something on the other side of me to shoot.

They have lots of nesting gators and the only interesting encounter I had with a big gator that wanted to do lunch happened there even though I have been around thousands of alligators over the years. This one is Big Joe. No games played and that is the bottom of a five gallon bucket in front of him. He was well over fourteen feet long. Got a little too interested in people and he went to that big luggage rack in the sky.

The feet would be a pretty major feature of that bowl if it works out, pretty much the only feature left to make of interest in it at this point. I was originally trying to give it a little lift with them fitting the rest of the bowl design. My design isn't terrible but it is too short and fat to go with the feet I had in mind.

Been turning old dry wood this morning. Turned an hour on a piece of cherry before deciding it had to burn. Turning on some old cedar now and it isn't looking too promising either, just found some cracks starting. Trying to rain again, might be done for the day after I glue the cracks and find some lunch.

We have bunches of bald eagles in Louisiana again now. Not too hard to find them and I have a few decent pictures. Funny about the buzzard. On a particularly dry day for photography I shot a series of one doing the top of a flag pole flare thing on a telephone pole. I titled the series practicing for when he becomes an eagle. Lots of funny stories about photographers that led a sheltered life and wildlife meeting but I'm sure you have your share of those too.

Hu

 

[KellyDunn]

Hu, seems this thread is morphing in a very good way towards critique.
I never answered your original premise. Wood turning will mostly be hobby turners as it is now. Full time turners who actually depend on sales to pay the bills will bend to whatever it takes that the folks laying out the money are willing to buy. I know I did say that but did not put it into the future of woodturning context. There is a point however where I balk. Doing a work exactly like anothers cause the person wants one but with my name on it. No thanks. Cutting edge turners who have either a day job or a spouse that works or are retired will continue to push the boundries of the field without to much concern if what they make sells. There are full time turners who need to teach, sell tools and videos to make it work for them. Because they do not sell enough work to make on that alone. There are exceptions to all this. I dont teach as much as I used to. But I never really taught for the money. I dont have the stamina anymore to really put myself out there to make say a two week trip worth doing. For me in the future I see an experimental work staying in the mix but me still turning what sells. And teaching now and again.
I am sure I missed several items others may think the future of the field holds. Or even some may think what I have said needs correction.

 

[Hu Lowery]

been there and I agree

Hu, seems this thread is morphing in a very good way towards critique.
I never answered your original premise. Wood turning will mostly be hobby turners as it is now. Full time turners who actually depend on sales to pay the bills will bend to whatever it takes that the folks laying out the money are willing to buy. I know I did say that but did not put it into the future of woodturning context. There is a point however where I balk. Doing a work exactly like anothers cause the person wants one but with my name on it. No thanks. Cutting edge turners who have either a day job or a spouse that works or are retired will continue to push the boundries of the field without to much concern if what they make sells. There are full time turners who need to teach, sell tools and videos to make it work for them. Because they do not sell enough work to make on that alone. There are exceptions to all this. I dont teach as much as I used to. But I never really taught for the money. I dont have the stamina anymore to really put myself out there to make say a two week trip worth doing. For me in the future I see an experimental work staying in the mix but me still turning what sells. And teaching now and again.
I am sure I missed several items others may think the future of the field holds. Or even some may think what I have said needs correction.

Kelly,

I have been there where someone wanted somebody else's design with my name on it. The answer was a flat no. You want a Hu, you come to Hu. You want somebody else's work, you go to them. I wouldn't even copy somebody else's shaft profile on a cue stick. I spent quite a few hours developing my profile and I suspect the other people did too.

I think it still works out the same for me. Make some stuff to sell that is pretty generic, a lot like my third set of wings if I clean up the bottom. Nothing special about them at all. Some round and brown bowls that are similar, more selling the wood features and finish than the design. Then turn some pieces that are similar in size and time spent but of designs that suit me. Finally, a few that push my limits.

I let the fact that hobby shooters could shoot ten thousand digital images in a weekend and have a few good ones then basically give them away push me out of outdoor and wildlife photography. I'm pretty sure that was a mistake. I think I'll stick my toes in and hang with wood turning. I have made about 98% of my customers and clients happy over the years, maybe more. It wasn't ever by offering the cheapest price, often I was one of the highest around, but I did offer very good bang for the buck. I'll have to try to do the same wood turning and see if I can build a market. I can't turn full time but on the other hand if I eventually net ten or twelve thousand a year from turning I would be a happy camper.

I spent five or six hours turning today trying to salvage some old blanks that looked like they would be OK. Harder than a hammer and both of them I tried revealed more dangerous flaws instead of less as I cut deeper. Thought I could cut away a crack in the waste area of a piece, an hour turning revealed a hairline crack running from the crown to the toe of the piece. That was the second piece. The first piece looked good after I recut with a chainsaw. Deeper grief again, some very hard cherry. Lucky I learned from the turning, nothing wasted. Learning to burn wood I think is ready to burn too!

it has been a week or so now but I did look at your work. Fantastic stuff! A level of ability to aspire to and if I fall a little short I may still be in mighty fine shape.

Hu

 

[KellyDunn]

Hu, I started turning for real in I think 1980. But did not get the real bug till 86 when I went to Provo. Went full time in 89. Took my back out in 85. By 89 had to get cut. Doc told me to do lighter things than build houses. My early work is like most of our early work, bad.
I am basicly disabled and know I could not hold down a job with exact demands. Being self employed was my only way to stay off the dole.
But by 89 I was a pretty good turner and learned the value of being a sponge of other turners abilities. Went to most of the two major symposiums. When we formed a club here I was in charge of bringing in demo folk. I have learned from and taken hands on classes with most. The list is huge.
My instant fame only took me twenty years. I have my own style of turning and teach it well but always want to learn more.
Thanks for liking my work.

 

[Hu Lowery]

fifteen or twenty years to be an overnight success!

Hu, I started turning for real in I think 1980. But did not get the real bug till 86 when I went to Provo. Went full time in 89. Took my back out in 85. By 89 had to get cut. Doc told me to do lighter things than build houses. My early work is like most of our early work, bad.
I am basicly disabled and know I could not hold down a job with exact demands. Being self employed was my only way to stay off the dole.
But by 89 I was a pretty good turner and learned the value of being a sponge of other turners abilities. Went to most of the two major symposiums. When we formed a club here I was in charge of bringing in demo folk. I have learned from and taken hands on classes with most. The list is huge.
My instant fame only took me twenty years. I have my own style of turning and teach it well but always want to learn more.
Thanks for liking my work.

Kelly,

Many a person has labored at their craft for decades before being "discovered" which really means coming in style. I think of Charlie Rich, made a lot of good music then had a big hit. He wasn't real thrilled with being called an overnight success like he hadn't paid his dues for many a year before becoming an overnight success!

I am on the dole, but it is a very small one! Truth is I can't work for anyone else, couldn't even run my own business as a computer system engineer. Twice in the last month my back has went to hell when I was doing absolutely nothing. I have to hit a little bit with some of this home based stuff working when and where I feel like it.

I noticed you are in the cattle country of the big island. I made it to the main island when my brother was stationed there in the early seventies but never made it to the big island even though I wanted to then. I am in cattle country too, sitting on an old dairy farm with not quite a hundred acres left to it. No neighbors to disturb if I work my usual odd hours. A friend asked how soon I was coming back to "civilization". I told him not a minute sooner than I had to, I was born on a farm and I'm a happy camper right where I am at.

Much of your work has a simple elegance that I want to strive for. Seems like a slap to call that round and brown! Some work seems to be change of pace, something I feel the need to do too. I will not hesitate to draw inspiration from the work of you and other artists and I certainly am interested in learning technique. My issue is with such near copies that someone doesn't know who made something until they check the name. In the pool cue industry there are some genuine "tribute" pieces but there are also a lot of rip offs that say it is OK to rip off someone currently turning out work if we call it a tribute! I don't think so.

No problems copying your stuff right now, the gouge marks inside and out are pretty much of a give away of my work. I'm calling it "Cajun primitive!" More seriously, I am pleased with the quality of some of my turning. Hopefully with experience I will become more consistent with the quality. In competition what often counts is how close to your best your average performance is. I think the same will be true of my turning. A small brag, I set a few local records in competition and unofficially bettered a world record after an early unplanned retirement. I have a few health issues, I ain't disabled or dead! Wood turning is just turning my competitive juices in a new direction, competing against myself.

Hu

 

[Art Betke]

I turn because it's what I love to do. I'm a bit obsessed. My pieces are priced anywhere from $12 to $1000. I sell lots of the $12 to $70 pieces. I have yet to sell a $1000 piece. My turning is only on weekends and other time off work. It pays its own way, paying for all expenses and new equipment, about $7000 per year. I'm planning that when I retire (soon I hope) that I will have all the equipment and tools I need and will be able to double my output. Not expecting the turning will provide me with a comfortable living.

Basic turning sells the most. Most people won't spend big bucks on turnings, no matter how artsy they are. I agree with you that wood turning should not look like it could be made of any kind of material. My artsy fartsy pieces always have parts that are basic untouched wood. I want people to be very aware that what they are looking at is made from wood.