When to start buying duplicate tools?

[Nathan Roper]

At what point does it make sense to start buying duplicate (size) tools to profile with different grinds?

I have a 5/8" bowl gouge, 1/2" "finishing" bowl gouge, an a 3/8" "finishing" bowl gouge. I use the 1/2" for basically everything when turning a bowl. I generally follow the buy once cry once philosophy and as such bought the Glenn Lucas M42 gouges. I have a tormek and have been grinding these tools based on the cards included with them from Glenn. I spent money on the "nicer" tools so I don't have what might be considered more starter level tools to experiment different grinds on. I've been watching the 101 videos from Craft Supplies and reading "Turning Bowls" with Richard Raffan and they both mention different grinds. Now I've found an infographic from Turn a Wood Bowl showing a pyramid with three 1/2" gouges all with different grinds.

With my tool basics* kind of covered and a little money in my pocket from Christmas I'm wondering if maybe I should consider getting another 1/2" gouge. Should I just keep going with what I've got or buy another one? I have probably turned 30-40 bowls either roughed out and drying or that I've finish turned green.

* I do also have a skew, round nose NRS, and a couple vicmarc chucks.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

At what point does it make sense to start buying duplicate (size) tools to profile with different grinds?

When there are two grinds you want to compare side by side . That's why I like the Oneway double ended tools.

 

[hockenbery]

I encourage newer turners to get really good with a basic f pest of tools.
Concentrate on one or two objects until you get good turning them.

Then start experimenting* with new objects, new tools, different grinds..

If you master the Ellsworth grind you can go a long way with that one tool.
If you master the 40/40 groping and bottom of the bowl grind you can go a long way with those.

You don’t need to move to another grind on any time table.

Bowl gouges
I use the Ellsworth grind 90% of the time - the 5/8 bar diameter Jamieson gouge made by thompson is a great tool for this grind.
I have one thompson vee 5/8 D with 40/40 great for platters.
I have one thompson 3/8 bar with a Michelson grind - great for finishing, coves, hollowing spheres.

Have fun

 

[hughie]

For me it occurs as the memory has glitches

In reality I will probably grind one with a new angle or profile and test it and take it from there

 

[Mike Johnson]

If you have turning tools that require resharpening on a regular basis, you can save a little time if you have several of the same type of
tool that you can sharpen at the same time when you are at your grinder. If you are roughing out a bunch of bowl blanks it can be
worthwhile to have several sharp roughing gouges and switch out when the first one dulls. This reduces the number of trips back and forth to the grinder.

 

[Dean Center]

IMHO, you have an adequate array of gouges. If you're having problems or you are so comfortable with what you're doing with your current tools that you're bored, then you might consider a new grind.

I'll float a different use for your burning-a-hole-in-your-pocket cash for you to consider--mosey on over to Craft Supplies and take a 3 day class. Remember, it's not the arrow, it's the archer.

 

[Nathan Roper]

Thanks to all for the responses. I'm not exactly sure what grind I'm getting off the tormek (wheel distance to "A" on gauge, 65mm protrusion and jig angle set to "4") so I don't know if it'd be considered the Ellsworth or 40/40 or something else. I guess I should take a pic and post it here for feedback on that.

IMHO, you have an adequate array of gouges. If you're having problems or you are so comfortable with what you're doing with your current tools that you're bored, then you might consider a new grind.

I'll float a different use for your burning-a-hole-in-your-pocket cash for you to consider--mosey on over to Craft Supplies and take a 3 day class. Remember, it's not the arrow, it's the archer.

I had allocated some money from Christmas for the 3 day 101 class coming up beginning of February at Craft Supplies. It makes it easier that I'm about 40 minutes from the store. That said, I was picking up some box elder yesterday and talked with a guy that says he's going to be selling an older 2hp VL300 for what seems like a real decent price. It is certainly more than my Christmas money but if I sell my nova 1624 for what I paid 9 months ago ($700) I think I can make it work. It would mean that 101 class is off the table though. I'm hoping to check out the lathe over the long weekend and then we'll see what happens.

 

[hockenbery]

would mean that 101 class is off the table though. I'm hoping to check out the lathe over the long weekend and then we'll see what happens.

The vl300 is a nice machine. Tough decision.

What you learn from a quality class will last you forever.
A quality class in most cases increases your enjoyment of turning, quality of work, and productivity more than a new or newer lathe.

People make great work on crappy lathes
People make crappy work on great lathes


I took a two classes - Liam O’Neil and David Ellsworth a year apart.
I was lucky our club arranged these classes students slit the costs.
Sold a piece I made in David’s class for half the tuition.
Sold enough in the next year to but a ONEWAY.

Lathes and classes were a lot less expensive in the mid 90s.

Wish you well in you decision making

 

[Doug Freeman]

At what point does it make sense to start buying duplicate (size) tools to profile with different grinds?

No rules, everyone approaches turning a bit differently. For me, I started experimenting early on, after I got comfortable with a grind. I also started out with a wet grinder (Grizzly - I already had it) with the tormek jig and gages. After a bit I got a bench grinder for shaping, the wet grinder for resharpening only.

I started with hi value tools, Benjamins Best, for the same reason I started with a HF lathe - it was scratching a curiosity itch and I didnt want $1000’s tied up is something I knew little about and could well punt it as a hobby. I do not adhere to the buy once cry once axiom. I focus on ROI. I have had a few tools that I cry every time I think about them because they were very poor return for the $ paid.

The hi value tools allowed me to have different size tools as well as multiples with different grinds, which allowed me to evaluate a broad spectrum of methods, eventually finding my favored tools and methods. Once favored tools were ID’d I then acquired the few heavy use tools in m42 and pm - 5/8” shaft BG (multiples for different grinds), 3/8 & 1/2” SG. I still use most all of the hi value tools they just dont get a lot of use.

Taking classes is another good use of $’s, though personally I have never taken one. I’m sure I would have went up the learning curve faster, but development speed was not a priority for me. Things are much different today vs pre internet and streamed demos - there is a huge amount of quality ed just in the AAW material alone. The Ellsworth streamed demo my club had a couple yrs ago was 98% as though he were at our mtg. Many others have been just as ed and informative. Not everyone starts from the same point either. I came into turning with an engineering degree, 30 yrs of mfg experience, 15 yrs as an athlete (lots of film study and being coached), and working with all kinds of tools on all kinds of things (including flat ww) since I was a kid, so the technical side of it was pretty easy (the artsy side is still a bit elusive). Those without some of that background will benefit more from classes - it just depends on what skills one has already.

 

[robo hippy]

Although it may be considered sacrilege to some, I haven't used a swept back gouge in over 10 years. I should do a video about that..... What changed that for me was learning the 40/40 grind and platform sharpening. I rough my bowls with scrapers, and finish with gouges. The 40/40 does the whole outside, and the inside down to the transition, then I switch to a number of different BOB gouges, and don't really have any favorites, in part because on one piece of wood, one will work, but on the next it won't. The thing with the swept back grind, to me, is that it is a 'multipurpose' tool, which to me, means that it does a number of jobs well, but is a master of none. The specialty tools seem to work better. The problem with the 40/40 grind is that you need to learn to sharpen without jigs. There are a couple of options for doing the 40/40 grind with jigs, but I don't really have experience with them. When you use the platform to sharpen, everything you do is exactly what you do when you turn. For gouges, I like the Thompson and D Way gouges. I don't see or notice any difference between the M42 and V10 metals either in sharpness or edge duration. For finish surface on my bowls, most of the time it is a shear scrape with scrapers. I do like the burnished burr compared to the grinder burr.

I am one who is blessed or cursed, with having to experiment, so I try lots of different things. 2 tools I have that I don't use are the Soren Berger end grain hollowing tool (never could figure out how to sharpen it), and the Sorby Spindle Masters. The Thompson fluteless gouge works far better.

robo hippy

 

[Mike Novak]

Nathan

I also use tormek jigs. I use #2 / 65 for detail gouge and #6 / 75 for Ellsworth. Sounds like yours is something in between. There is a website called sharpeninghandbook.info that lists all the tormek gage settings.

 

[Guy Pepin]

The vl300 is a nice machine. Tough decision.

What you learn from a quality class will last you forever.
A quality class in most cases increases your enjoyment of turning, quality of work, and productivity more than a new or newer lathe.

People make great work on crappy lathes
People make crappy work on great lathes


I took a two classes - Liam O’Neil and David Ellsworth a year apart.
I was lucky our club arranged these classes students slit the costs.
Sold a piece I made in David’s class for half the tuition.
Sold enough in the next year to but a ONEWAY.

Lathes and classes were a lot less expensive in the mid 90s.

Wish you well in you decision making

Heartily agree with your response.
I upgraded to a 2hp Rikon 70-450 two years ago from a shop made benchtop I bought for $100 - 1/2 hp, belt driven using a variety of pulleys, no live centre, no chuck... The first time I turned on the Rikon, the smoothness of operation, tail-stock, modern banjo, etc. was really sweet. Nevertheless, I learned a lot on that first basic lathe and turned out many beautiful gifts. Recently I gave the shop made to a friend and spent an afternoon showing him how to make a bowl. I couldn't believe the vibration! Yet there we were, turning bowls. He had already figured out how to make very nice Christmas ornaments.
This morning my wife and I were discussing future plans and she agreed with me that the next 'item' on the list should be a good course.

 

[robo hippy]

Vicmark makes very good lathes. I like that they have 3 speed ranges instead of the more standard 2 speed lathes that most make. I do not like turning bowls on long bed lathes though. That lathe may be worth the effort though. Oh, they go down to almost zero rpm before turning off. I find the very low speeds ideal for sanding my warped bowls.

robo hippy

 

[odie]

Should one take a class?

That represents a conundrum for me.....because early on, and as with many other newbie turners did, I wanted to take one of the many lathe turning classes that are available to us.....but never did because of my personal circumstances of those times. I ended up turning for the first twenty years without any individual instruction at all......no classes, no mentors, no club.....no nothing! Except for a couple of books and a few early VHS videos, there was no contact with other turners at all.....none, zip, zero, nada.....so, I was completely alone in where my quest for bowl turning knowledge took me.

As a result of this ^^^^^, I've made quite a few of my own tools and jigs that I don't think any turner has ever used before.....or even thought of. I believe I have a personal style, that to my knowledge, no other turner compares to. This style of mine is pure turning.....there is no embellishment at all, and the shapes you see are entirely produced on the lathe with hand held tools to spinning wood.

If I could go back, there is no way I would take a class, because I would learn "group" knowledge that other turners share with each other.....instead of taking the isolated path I took with the available materials I had in those times. Now that I'm connected to other turners with much communication and sharing of knowledge, my hindsight for where I have been, and how that relates to where I am now.....was a "eureka" moment for me.....This kind of hindsight is now perfectly clear, and 20/20.

I wouldn't suggest anyone else take the same route to enlightenment that I took, because my knowledge came at a snail's pace.....but, I wouldn't trade the journey I took to where I am now for the world! Because of the electronic information age we now live in, it might be next to impossible for anyone to learn turning in near complete isolation, like I did.....unless they live in a jail cell with a lathe, and a big pile of wood.....for 20+ years!!!!!

My learning experience continues.....but, my foundations for continuing down this path are unique.

-----odie-----