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What other turners aren't telling you, and how that relates to "innovative spirit"!

think I have figured it out

keep politics out of discussions here, not the place for it.

post deleted -- Admin
 
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noted!

Purely a matter of my perspective, I didn't see any politics in my post, only humor intended. I thought that I had made that very obvious but apparently not.

Apologies for the post.

Hu
 
Different people need different things to make their lives work for them. My business card says Wood Lathe Artist on it. I call myself that cause I believe it. Years ago I worked for a firm and did a bunch of the building fixing. the gals in the computer room started calling me The Incredible Mr. Dunn. Seems every drawer that squeeked I could fix. But I decided I liked that moniker. So, I am, The Incredible Mr. Dunn who also is a Wood Lathe Artist. I have zero doubt in both.
Yet most of my turned work is pure form. It sells. I take pride in what I do. You should take pride in what you do. Regardless of what you choose to call or not call yourself. It does not matter if I or anyone else agree with what a person calls themself. They do it cause it works for them. If someone turns a ball and calls it art? Great. is a simple pure form bowl art? I am going to probably side with the person if they say yes. Simple form is not so simple to do.
Betty mentioned Bert Marsh. Bert liked the ogee form. A very old form. But almost no one dislikes the form. Its very pleasing. Bert was not the first to use it in turning but it became associated with his name cause he did so much of it. Is his pieces art? Again I side with those who say yes.
I do lots of Hawaiian Calabash bowls. I have gotten pretty good at them. Yet consider myself a serious student of the form. They look simple yet are tough as nails to pull off. Are they art? I side with those who say yes.
Think I will head out and turn one. Cheers.
 
KellyDunn said:
Different people need different things to make their lives work for them. My business card says Wood Lathe Artist on it. I call myself that cause I believe it. Years ago I worked for a firm and did a bunch of the building fixing. the gals in the computer room started calling me The Incredible Mr. Dunn. Seems every drawer that squeeked I could fix. But I decided I liked that moniker. So, I am, The Incredible Mr. Dunn who also is a Wood Lathe Artist. I have zero doubt in both.
Yet most of my turned work is pure form. It sells. I take pride in what I do. You should take pride in what you do. Regardless of what you choose to call or not call yourself. It does not matter if I or anyone else agree with what a person calls themself. They do it cause it works for them. If someone turns a ball and calls it art? Great. is a simple pure form bowl art? I am going to probably side with the person if they say yes. Simple form is not so simple to do.
Betty mentioned Bert Marsh. Bert liked the ogee form. A very old form. But almost no one dislikes the form. Its very pleasing. Bert was not the first to use it in turning but it became associated with his name cause he did so much of it. Is his pieces art? Again I side with those who say yes.
I do lots of Hawaiian Calabash bowls. I have gotten pretty good at them. Yet consider myself a serious student of the form. They look simple yet are tough as nails to pull off. Are they art? I side with those who say yes.
Think I will head out and turn one. Cheers.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more, Kelly.....and, thanks for your thoughts. A big chunk of applicable philosophy here......😀

I, too, consider my bowls art......and, I am an artist. As with you, it doesn't matter how others perceive me. What is important is how I see myself, and how that effects my performance as the person I believe myself to be.

As with you, I too......am a believer in the simple, but well executed curve, or form. Someone once told me how easy and simple lathe turning is, because they learned all about it in a high school shop class! Although, I would have to agree that just about anyone can make a bowl, and on the very first try.......it's only those who have put in the blood, sweat, and tears, who have, or can consistently cross the threshold between craft, and art.

You mentioned simple shapes made from simple (artistically flowing) curves.......they look so simple to those who don't know any better.......but to do it with gracefulness and artistic transition is something that takes more than desire. Call it what you will, but that certain talent, combined with the perseverance to learn all that is frustratingly hidden within the total completed effort are the only things that will yield those results that the observer will recognize as something that is special......or, art, if you will.

I'll add that embellishment can, and does confuse the issue of whether the underlying turning is done with a finely honed skill. It has a certain "camouflage" effect, in that it will serve to focus attention elsewhere. As I said before, there is nothing wrong with embellishment, or even lots of it. It has it's place among the overall residual skills that can enhance a turning.....but, embellishment in, and of itself, is not a turning skill.

ooc
 
odie said:
.....but, embellishment in, and of itself, is not a turning skill. ooc
Click to expand...

I sometimes use the skew chisel to rough up the surface of my turned sculpture, while the wood is on the lathe. There's no necessity for the surface to be rough other than to embellish the surface ..... as in the tall spindle-turned example attached. 🙂

The wood is air-dried butternut, turned, the surface "embellished" on the lathe, carved, embellished area bleached, then finished with oil. The entire spindle-turned piece is about 5' long x 4" diameter.

Betty Scarpino, Editor, American Woodturner
 

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Odie,
Have you seen the bowls done with an arbortech and disc sanders? Excellent forms and you'd never know they weren't done on a lathe. I was amazed...
 
The innovative spirit thrives!

Every so often, this issue comes up.
The AAW’s purpose and charter is to promote the “PROCESS†of woodturning. There is no limitation as to the end product or the significance of the turning process in the end result. This approach has created a wonderful atmosphere of diversity and curiosity not seen in other crafts. Each person brings their unique talents to the table. What a great deal for us! I do not know of anyone that does not appreciate a well-crafted vessel or bowl. Bill Luce comes to my mind as the best. I do not know anyone that cannot appreciate J. Paul Fennel's carved vessels. (Isaak P. can also play a country hoe-down if he chooses.) There is no conflict with anything on show and tell tables across the world with the AAW or its purpose.

The moment you suggest what is acceptable, may lose forever what is possible. I cannot wait to see what someone comes up with next, can you?

Jerry
 
My art

I am not a "real form" artist, but consider the finding and bringing out the wood's natural beauty is my "art". My art is also in the finish. Perfection is my goal with no scratches, and smoothness of the surface (altho I just bought a texturing tool) .
On my craft show tables, especially one that has bug holes, I have 2 signs. one is "nature's art", and the other is "If it don't hold soup, it's art". Don't know who coined the last phrase, sorry. Get's a lot of laughs, Gretch
 
I’ll try a little re-set.
As it was mentioned, many years ago, the definitions have been as simple as (wood turned on a lathe). Now after years of evolution the answer, as you would expect, is not as straight forward,

I had originally asked at what point a “woodturning†transforms into something else but I immediately got the “you can define art†type of responses. I then asked, a similar but what I thought to be an easier question. What is your definition of a “woodturningâ€. Only one person seemed to be able to answer this.
I am not, nor would I ever try to define art. I do believe that there must be some sort of (personal) criteria for a piece to be categorized as “x†or “y†I wasn’t looking for a carved in stone answer, rather peoples personal interpretations.
Bill, what’s your definition of a “woodturningâ€, Mark, what’s your definition of a “woodturningâ, this is what I was asking..
 
Definition

Mine is quite simple, Ed:

"Any object made, in whole or in part, using a wood lathe and containing wood." [Caveate: No, a table that has round legs is not a woodturning within my definition 😀]

Your next question: "How can you tell?" Next answer: "Either it's obvious or the maker says so."

Take a look at this: https://www.google.com/search?q=Bar...%2Fartworks%2Fhepworth-pelagos-t00699;952;820

It is, quite literally, a woodturning because the original wood ball was produced on a lathe. The artist, British sculptor Barbara Hepworth, was not, however, a woodturner; she hired one to make the ball that she then carved.

But, compare that with this one by Andi Wolfe: https://www.google.com/search?q=and...www.twistedturner.com%2Faaw2005oz.htm;800;582

Andi is a turner without question. If you look at the piece carefully (not in the photo of course, but in person) you can see the shape of the bowl that it was carved from.
 
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Mine is quite simple, Ed:

"Any object made, in whole or in part, using a wood lathe and containing wood." [Caveate: No, a table that has round legs is not a woodturning within my definition ]

Your next question: "How can you tell?" Next answer: "Either it's obvious or the maker says so."
Click to expand...
Now that wasn't so hard, was it? 🙂
Now I just need a few more people to answer to get a broader perspective.
Thanks
 
Edward Weber said:
Now that wasn't so hard, was it? 🙂
Now I just need a few more people to answer to get a broader perspective.
Thanks
Click to expand...

So Ed (Edward?),

Whilst other members are chewing over their definitions, a question for you:

How/what does Edward Weber define a "woodturning"?

😉
 
Edward Weber said:
Now that wasn't so hard, was it? 🙂 Now I just need a few more people to answer to get a broader perspective. Thanks
Click to expand...
I would add to Mark's and assembled items with a majority of parts turned on a lathe.

This sort of takes most tables and the house with turned columns out if the wood turning.

It leaves in a the Piecrust candle table all of whose parts: top, center support column and three legs off the support column are turned.

Then there is the issue of materials.

Al
 
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Edward Weber said:
Mine is not too far from yours. A majority (51%) turned on the lathe.
Click to expand...


A clarification on "majority" 51% of what? Time, surface, weight,

Time eliminates just about anything glued together: most pens, segmented etc has more work done off the lathe than on.
Surface eliminates most painted, stained, and carved pieces.

Florida state fair is coming up soon. George Dinsemore and other organizers have over the years defined 15 categories for the woodturning competition.
One of which is "other than wood"

http://www.floridastatefair.com/pdffiles/comp-woodturning2014.pdf

Even with these some interpretation is left to the maker and juror. The juror has the option of moving a submission to another category.

Al
 
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I turn wood, bone, plastic, resin, Antler, stone, Paper, and anything else that fits on my lathe. I just took up metal spinning which is also done on the wood lathe. So I can't define wood turning as simply wood. What about all those acryic and cast resin pens. All those things show up in the instant gallery and look turned. However there are many things nowdays that don't look turned. malcolm Tibbets latest tables don't appear to be turned but they are.
 
john lucas said:
I turn wood, bone, plastic, resin, Antler, stone, Paper, and anything else that fits on my lathe. I just took up metal spinning which is also done on the wood lathe. So I can't define wood turning as simply wood. What about all those acryic and cast resin pens. All those things show up in the instant gallery and look turned. However there are many things nowdays that don't look turned. malcolm Tibbets latest tables don't appear to be turned but they are.
Click to expand...

All those things are "turned" along with most every machine part in existence. After all, everything that is made on a type of lathe, whether wood, metal, or rose engine, is a turning. I would question including all of it under "woodturning." While my "definition" was and is pretty broad, its not so inclusive as to eliminate wood in the criteria. I'm not, however, advocating kicking the pen turners out of the Instant Gallery, but turned stone and spun metal probably need their own club. 😉

On the contrary, Mr. Tibbets' segmented chess table was clearly turned. Are there others?
 
hockenbery said:
A clarification on "majority" 51% of what? Time, surface, weight,

Time eliminates just about anything glued together: most pens, segmented etc has more work done off the lathe than on.
Surface eliminates most painted, stained, and carved pieces.

Florida state fair is coming up soon. George Dinsemore and other organizers have over the years defined 15 categories for the woodturning competition.
One of which is "other than wood"

http://www.floridastatefair.com/pdffiles/comp-woodturning2014.pdf

Even with these some interpretation is left to the maker and juror. The juror has the option of moving a submission to another category.

Al
Click to expand...

First of all lets tackle segmented.
1. It's called Segmented. The definition is in the name, which also describes the construction method (which I was told was a bad thing.)
2. Segmented already has it's own category and an AAW chapter
3. Time does not apply to Segmented turnings because it already has it's own category, refer to 1 & 2

I would have to say for me 51% would have to include time.
If you turn for 15min and carve for 2hrs, yes it's a woodturning, but it would be better described as a carved turning This process works for segmented turning why not carved or painted or...
As with segmenting, putting one style or another into their own category isn't such a horrible thing. No one was hurt, the world still goes around, all is well.

"15 categories for the woodturning competition.
One of which is "other than wood"
Then the term woodturning looses all meaning. "woodturning used to be more descriptive than it is now. Now it is becoming a generalized term for any art form, apparently even for thing other than wood.🙄
 
Edward,

Are you trying to define "woodturning" as a whole or just create a bunch of semantic pigeon-holed categories, and if so, for what purpose?

Following your 51% time criteria, would you "exclude" Andi Wolfe from the AAW because she spent 1 hour turning the bowl and 150 hours carving it into her leaf piece I linked to above?

I get a sense that we're traveling done a path to a Dire Straits song.
 
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Mark Mandell said:
Edward,

Are you trying to define "woodturning" as a whole or just create a bunch of semantic pigeon-holed categories, and if so, for what purpose?

Following your 51% time criteria, would you "exclude" Andi Wolfe from the AAW because she spent 1 hour turning the bowl and 150 hours carving it into her leaf piece I linked to above?

I get a sense that we're traveling done a path to a Dire Straits song.
Click to expand...

I was simply asking (again) how people define "woodturning"
For me "wood turning is a main category with many sub categories,
You asked my definition, I answered with my 51 %. For me, if it take more than halt time time to segment, it a segmented turning. If it takes more than half the time to carve it's a carved turning. It's easy once you get the hang of it.🙂

I don't know why you and others think or imply that I am somehow trying to "exclude" anyone or anything.
I certainly wouldn't exclude Andi Wolfe's work, but maybe have a category for carved turnings. Placing like things in their own category does not diminish the work or the artist in any way. Maybe, just ,aybe, those who carve or sculpt or whatever, might like to have their own category instead of being lumped in with a bowl is a bowl is a bowl. Why people think this is a negative or that I'm trying to do something evil, I just don't know.
 
Not Evil

Just trying to understand your goal of categories here.

For instance, would you want the Instant Gallery at a symposium split into a bunch of sub-sections (bowls on table 1, carved stuff on table 15, etc)? Do you envision separate divisions of the AAW for the categories?

We can discuss such separation criteria ad absurdum, but then what? After all, I can walk into a symposium show and easily tell a straight turned bowl from a carved piece from a segmented item from a multi-axis spindle-turned form from a jar. I instantly recognize all of those differences (categories, if you like) without needing to make brightline semantic demarcations between them. As a maker putting my stuff in the show, I really don't care whose work you put mine next to, and, in fact, I like the mixed format done at the shows. For me, walking down a 40' line of just bowls would tend to get visually boring.

Harking back to my post above that you thought was "great", I acknowledged that some people I've spoken with seem a bit lost (and maybe even somehow misled) as the result of the multiple directions that the activity of turning wood on a lathe has taken in the last dozen years. Their concept of making stuff on a wood lathe was clearly limited to bowls, candle holders and table legs, and maybe those hollow-form jars with nice lids and finials. So, do you think that defining a bunch of categories will give those folks some comfort that the bowls and such that they like to turn are still defined as "woodturnings"? Do we need to do some boosting of bruised egos by somehow concluding that a straight bowl is more of a "woodturning" than something that was glued up from pieces or carved into something else?
 
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My “goal†as you put it is to dominate the world from safely inside my hollowed out volcano. Wait, that’s not you meant was it.

My position is this, there are already categories of wood turnings whether you like to admit it or not. There are spindles, hollowforms, etc. Very simple one or two word terms that describes a piece. If I simply added categories like “carved turnings†or “sculpted turnings†to the woodturning vocabulary, what harm is there.
The funny thing is that you asked me if I would exclude someone for their particular work, while I’m trying to include more people by adding categories (not literally)

I was not, am not, nor never have been, intentionally or unintentionally, trying to exclude or segregate the art or artist. You seem to be confusing my opinion with some sort of negative motive; I don’t want to see a 40’ long table of only bowls either.

My only “goal†was to get a feel for today’s interpretation of what constitutes a “woodturningâ€, since we actually agreed that it has changed over time. I understand that you can identify the different types of turnings at a glance, and that’s great, but everybody isn’t you are they? I fail to see how describing something by a more descriptive term is somehow considered negative. I would think the artist would want their pieces to be accurately described rather than an all encompassing or generalized term like “woodturningâ€.
As you wrote, some people feel lost or misled. Would additional categories give them comfort, I certainly don’t know if it would or wouldn’t. I don’t think it would give them discomfort.

We clearly have different definitions but that’s the point we don’t have to agree, although being admonished for my point of view is not necessary. This is, after all a purely subjective discussion, opinions can’t be wrong.
Good discussion as always
 
Ed,

I'm not painting you in some pejorative light, just trying to find an end result purpose here, although I will confess that I'm always leery of categorizing people as, from experience, I think it tends to foster exclusionary attitudes in one group or another (them Star-bellies being not included of course).

If we can agree that it's all wood turning of some sort (can we?), then the labels on all those sub-categories become obvious. A straight bowl is a bowl. Something that's carved, whether 51%, 99.9%, or 1%, is . . . "carved". Let's make things simple shall we? We don't need percentages and such, nor do we have to stand in the gallery or stare at a photograph and head-scratch on how to make such a determination. I for one, simply looking at a piece, would not be in a position to make a judgment about how much time was involved in any one phase of making it. For example, I've done pieces where getting the finish I wanted took significantly more time and effort than actually turning the wood.
,
PS:"World domination" "volcano". . Ah HA! We have unmasked you Herr Doctor! Vell, it won't work as 86 is on the job. You shall not spread CHAOS though your cleverly coded word games. Fore-warned is forearmed and we're packin'.😀
 
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Mark Mandell said:
Ed,

I'm not painting you in some pejorative light, just trying to find an end result purpose here, although I will confess that I'm always leery of categorizing people as, from experience, I think it tends to foster exclusionary attitudes in one group or another (them Star-bellies being not included of course).
Click to expand...
Let's just leave the Sneeches out of this shall we.
My result purpose was purely an academic exercise or question to get the "feel" of the woodturning as it is today. I only suggested different categories to delineate (for myself) the different types of turnings so that "I" could understand it better. If "I" didn't know where something fit in "I" placed it into it's own additional category. It seems you think categories are a negative slippery slope, I think they "can" make things more inclusive and orderly.
World domination aside I currently have no working manifesto regarding the AAW or woodturners as a whole.
Trust me 😉😀
 
I tend to think it’s impossible to categorize woodturning; it’s a continuum of techniques and manipulations on a web of the craft where some step along the way a lathe is used. The big question for attempting to categorize a turning is: What degree of work, where the chisel is not contacting the wood, moves a piece from one category to another? Trying to answer that is the slippery-slope that will lead to argument and division among creators because at some time in the future a turning will be excluded from display or discussion because of some arbitrary rule.

I would also like to point out that woodturning is woodcarving; it’s just a different method than the stationary piece and moving cutting edge.


P.S. - just one name says it all:
Sylvester McMonkey McBean
One of the best names ever!
Too Many Daves has some
great ones as well.
 
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Hello everyone........😀

I've been out of the loop for a few days, and I see this thread is still active!

Here's another thing to consider: When I, or anyone else thinks of woodturning......what comes to mind? For me, woodturning instantly brings up thoughts of applying a sharp tool to wood as it's spinning on the lathe. It doesn't bring up thoughts of gluing blocks of wood together, applying hand powered, or other carving tools to wood, burning designs into the wood, or dying, or sandblasting, or bleaching, or painting, piercing, or using acrylics, or stone, metal, etc. These other things can be in addition to woodturning, or in the case of alternate materials, in place of woodturning..........but, there is only one thing that is truly woodturning.

Ed continues to make valid points about how categorizing the many alternative pursuits of woodturning isn't, and is not intended to reduce the influence of other things that can add to woodturning........but, that should never be viewed as not appreciating them. It can, in my opinion, be viewed as making the basic woodturning skills become less of a focal point in their relation to all the sub-categories. I believe excellence in basic turning skills is something that is losing ground to the embellishments that can hide the fact that these basic turning skills are secondary, or not as high level of mastery than the total combined object might command without the embellishments.

Categorizing only highlights that which makes categorizing necessary to conceptualize it in the total sphere, while it allows simple mastery of what woodturning means to me, and others, stand out on it's own merit without being clouded in other things that aren't woodturning if thought of in the exclusive sense.

ooc
 
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Woodturning: a process that rotates wood as it is shaped.
Rotating is usually done by a lathe and the
shaping is often done by hand held tools but fly cutters, angle grinders, wires, chainsaws...... can do the shaping too.

Al
 
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Odie, your post and Owens before yours is what I had been trying to get at all along.
Individuals own definitions of what they consider to be woodturning. I'm sure there is a very wide range of answers. I know there is no single carved in stone definition.
I know this has skewed a bit from your OT but maybe one of the things "other turners aren't telling you" is that it's all but impossible to define woodturning due to it's nature of constant evolution.
 
The lathe is just a tool

The lathe is just a tool to rotate a piece of material, usually wood, which is spaped while rotating with another tool. This process is called turning. A spindle or a bowl, for example can be made by a lathe but also by other tools and the same thing can be make by different tools.
As soon a piece stop rotating the process changes from turning to something else.
So, in my opinion, what counts, esthetically is the final product, technically the process gets more complicated and a definition probably useless.
 
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