Used Up Gouge ?

[Richard Baker]

Wondering what you very experienced folks do with a "used up" bowl gouge when, after many sharpenings you eventually run out of flutes? Regrind into a short other kind of tool? Save and reuse the handle and/or the steel somehow? Throw it away?

 

[Randy]

I plan on making a pyramid point tool out of one that I was given. It is supposed to be easier than using the skew to make beads.

 

[Mr. Don]

Used up tools

I have been turning for over 10 years....I have Sorby tools, as well as Sears, Crown, Pinnacle, etc., and I am not shy about sharpening!!!! ( I trot to the old bench grinder often)!! After all this time, I have only tossed one tool into the scrap pile. You must be way over-doing the sharpening thing, to say the least. At the price of decent tools today, do not waste your time on the old stuff.....give them a decent goodbye on the way to the recycle bin. Just like a faithful dog....it's been great, but...... :cool2:

 

[Owen Lowe]

I have been turning for over 10 years....I have Sorby tools, as well as Sears, Crown, Pinnacle, etc., and I am not shy about sharpening!!!! ( I trot to the old bench grinder often)!! After all this time, I have only tossed one tool into the scrap pile. You must be way over-doing the sharpening thing, to say the least.

Heylo Don,

The time it takes to wear down a tool isn't determined by the years of ownership, but the amount one turns as well as the selection of tools available to the turner.

I've used up two 1/2" spindle gouges in 6 years and just got a third at the Symposium. I sharpen enough to maintain a well-cutting edge but I think it's more an indication of only having one 1/2" "spindle" shallow gouge at my disposal combined with a lot of turning (not to imply I don't also have other shallow and deep fluted gouges as well). The 1/2" gouges are probably used on every project - whether turning spindles or bowls.

The tools we use are not inexpensive, but I certainly consider them consumables along with sandpaper and finishes.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Wondering what you very experienced folks do with a "used up" bowl gouge when, after many sharpenings you eventually run out of flutes? Regrind into a short other kind of tool? Save and reuse the handle and/or the steel somehow? Throw it away?

Recycling by regrinding, I guess. As long as here's some steel there. My oldest is a bit over 20, has another couple inches of flute to go. I'd say you're putting more into grinding and less into sharpening, no matter your production rate. Mine's got a couple thousand easy on him.

Of course I feed the grit and bark to my roughing gouge. He's getting down close to 4" after 15 or so years, and I find my left thumb wrapping around the ferrule and creeping toward the handle now.

As the senior senator from MA observed "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it."

 

[Norm Smith]

Hi Richard,
I turn every day. Gouge life with me is less than two years. Use it up and throw it away or do as you are doing, find a use for whats left.
Good luck.
Norm

 

[Gretch Flo]

gouge life after death

I have wondered the same thing. I use the sorby fingernail jig and use the ellsworth bowl gouge. I go thru about 1 a year-I do turn alot, and everyone stresses sharpness and I am a believer. Yes, Michael I probably overgrind.
The last 3/4 " or so of the flute bottom is tapered so that the set screw doesn't hold. So I have maybe 3 inches of flute left and can't use the jig anymore. I have alot of "bodies" waiting for me to have an idea what to do with them. Gretch

 

[Mark Mandell]

Sharpening

I have noticed more than a few turners who, as Mr. Mouse observed, grind a lot but seldom just sharpen. The key to this is having your sharpening tools set up correctly. With a properly set jig (I use the Wolverine) sharpening takes a miniscule amount of metal away; just kissing the steel to the wheel sharpens the edge. I sharpen a tool in all of about 45 seconds: Tool into the jig, zip the first half, zip the other half, a zip-zop on the inside of the flute with the hard Arkansas slip, and I'm back cutting wood.

I've watched guys stand at the grinder for several minutes trying to refresh an edge. When I asked "why?". they always show me that they were trying to get the single bevel grind like from the factory. These are the same guys who think that even with a jig, the tool sometimes cuts differently. I then show them that because they are not precise in setting up their jigs the same way each time, they're actually reshaping their tool each time rather than just sharpening it.

If you want your tools to last for years + save grinding wheels (reducing airborne Alum Oxide!!) + spend more time at the wood and less time at the grinder, put your grinding setup in order such that you can put things in a precisely repeatable configuration to give you the exact same "grind" each time. This will also improve your turning because the tool will cut the same way each time.

Of course, if you reeelly LIKE grinding steel to see the pretty sparks fly, then ignore this post.

 

[dkulze]

The other trick to tool life is sharpening between grinds. Pick up a diamond hone and use that to touch up the edge regularly. I only end up going to the grinder about once every 10 sharpens and haven't actually gone to the grinder with my spindle gouge in a long time. The grinder, at this point, is used more for when I do a stupid and chip the edge. At that point, touching up just won't do the trick.

Dietrich

 

[MichaelMouse]

I have noticed more than a few turners who, as Mr. Mouse observed, grind a lot but seldom just sharpen. The key to this is having your sharpening tools set up correctly. With a properly set jig (I use the Wolverine) sharpening takes a miniscule amount of metal away; just kissing the steel to the wheel sharpens the edge. I sharpen a tool in all of about 45 seconds: Tool into the jig, zip the first half, zip the other half, a zip-zop on the inside of the flute with the hard Arkansas slip, and I'm back cutting wood.

I don't use a jig other than the bevel on the tool, as Roy Underhill says, so I'll just say that one pass left, one right on a grinder is good enough to refresh an edge in my way of turning. I seldom hone, preferring to gain from the bit of "tooth" that an edge fresh from the grinder gives.

Since I am in no way capable of guiding the tool over a variable curvature surface with the repeatability of a grinding jig, I use the general principle of steep angles to poke, shallow angles to peel and go by tactile and visual feedback to refine my angle of attack and compensate for variations in the piece. I also hollow out to in, in to out to use both sides of the gouge when hogging inside, something I do not observe everywhere. Those who don't might give longer life to their tools by doing something similar.

Then there's the business of trying to make one tool serve all, something I feel is counterproductive. Broader tools peel better than narrow and give a greater bevel reference to reduce ridging. Poking tools can be ground with large included angles without much harming the poke, while peeling tools like lesser included angles. Don't ask me what they are in numbers, because I don't know. If a tool starts to peel less effectively I just grind a slightly longer bevel to compensate for previously useable, but probably steeper angle freshenings. If the bevel is too long to make the curve without dragging the heel and making those @#$%^&! compressed rings that are the devil to sand away, I pick up another gouge with a shorter bevel.

Sounds like those who go through a lot of steel fast might benefit from some of the exotic alloys. I haven't found them to remain effective for the way I turn long enough to justify the expense.

Gretch, if you use a bowl gouge to rough the outside of your turnings, you may certainly use more of the flute you paid for by using the general principles enunciated above. Since you never really have to tolerate much overhang on outsides, they'll do fine, and never hit the rest.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Honing

I seldom hone, preferring to gain from the bit of "tooth" that an edge fresh from the grinder gives.

I do not (actually) hone my turning tools. My one pass over the flute side of the edge is to remove the "wire edge" left by the grinder. This is a very small (the harder the alloy, the smaller) burr of metal that is pushed up by the grind wheel. It is often sharper than the actual edge, but gets "stropped" off with a few cuts so the turner thinks his tool has gone dull. By removing it with the stone slip, I start cutting with the true ground edge. The amount of "tooth" the true edge has depends on the grit size in the stone. This is part of the mythe that high carbon steel will sharpen to a finer edge that HSS or the other alloys. It will, actually, but you have to get sharper than new razor blades, actually down approaching the crystal size of the metal, before you'll see any difference.

Any steel that "touches" the same grind stone will come away with exactly the same edge regardless of the alloy. The difference will be in the nature of the wire edge burr that gets pushed up. A carbon steel burr will be larger and actually a bit finer than one on A4 alloy; the softer steel moves more easily. The carbon steel burr is also far less durable and will strop off much more quickly, taking the true edge with it. Simply putting on a quick back bevel with a fine stone will remove the burr and leave a more durable true edge. My carving gouges are all carbon steel. A quick hone and back bevel with the slip and I can pound on them through hardwood for hours without having to resharpen them, and they'll leave the wood polished.

I sharpen my turning tools on a 120 grit wheel. With the burr removed, I need them no sharper.

mm

 

[00lightning]

I saw a day long demo with Micheal Hosaluk and he turned all day long with only one trip to the grinder. During a break, I mentioned this to him and his response was "so you noticed that ?". His was constantly honing using a diamond hone to keep his tools sharp.

 

[john lucas]

I ground away my first bowl gouge, it took about 6 or 7 years. Of course I had 2 gouges and still have the other one but it's been relegated to an 80 degree bevel for doing the bottom of steep sided bowls. I think you use up a gouge early on because your not comfortable with your sharpening so you always take away more metal than necessary.
I am a much better sharpener now so with or without a jig I take away much less metal. I'm also using a 100 grit wheel now which naturally takes away less metal. I have a course wheel for shaping if needed.
I don't hone often because it's simply not needed for me. I will hone the edge for final pass.
Bob Rosand has a short bowl gouge that he ground to turn beads. He basically turned it to a sort of point that looks a lot like a turtle nose. He used the edge of the grinder to make a sort of concave half bead shape on each side. He still had about 1/2" of flute left. It cuts really clean and since each side cuts a half bead you can change the size of the beads.

 

[Mr. Don]

Tools

O.K....Owen Lowe, ya got me on this one!!!! Point well taken.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I do not (actually) hone my turning tools. My one pass over the flute side of the edge is to remove the "wire edge" left by the grinder. This is a very small (the harder the alloy, the smaller) burr of metal that is pushed up by the grind wheel. It is often sharper than the actual edge, but gets "stropped" off with a few cuts so the turner thinks his tool has gone dull. By removing it with the stone slip, I start cutting with the true ground edge.

Old carver's dodge is to plunge the edge into a block of soft wood to get the wire edge off. As I said, I like the tooth it gives. Fresh from the wheel and wire edge intact makes for a surer high-angle entry, minimizing tool skate and possible catch. It is almost too aggressive on some cuts. First couple of entries uses it up. Since I know whence comes my help after grinding, I don't think the gouge has gone dull. Of course I don't stuff the nose into the cut like I see some do either, rather let the wood come to the edge and peel off.

Diamonds are the great equalizer in the honing debate. M2 and even more exotic (and sometimes harder) alloys don't respond to the old India gouge stone like carbon, which takes a great edge quickly, whence the business of carbon taking a better edge, which should be "making" a better edge. I have, and use a diamond cone on my narrow-nosed gouges, but I can't find a concave version to keep at the lathe as I did with my oilstone back when I was all carbon steel. Is there one out there cheaper than an engagement ring?

If I were doing a demo on strange ground with no grinder, I'd use my diamond stone(s) to keep up the edge. Even if they had an unfamiliar piece of equipment, perhaps. Better a bit more time with something you know than a careless instant out of inexperience. The stone's a convenience, not a necessity, and as the thread shows, we go there often.

 

[Richard Baker]

Thank You

Thanks to all for the interesting replies. Am pretty sure that my first Sorby bowl gouge is shorter than it was originally, about 3 years ago. It gets some use 4 or 5 days a week, but usually for relatively short turning sessions. Will try rubbing some diamonds on the bevel.

 

[Paul Engle]

Schessh... the guy only wanted an idea on what to do with the left overs. not a bash session on sharpening and grinding.....keep the handle and what little steel is left you may find some use for it , like nothches on a something or other ...

 

[Rob Wallace]

Diamond hones are very convenient....

Diamonds are the great equalizer in the honing debate. M2 and even more exotic (and sometimes harder) alloys don't respond to the old India gouge stone like carbon, which takes a great edge quickly, whence the business of carbon taking a better edge, which should be "making" a better edge. I have, and use a diamond cone on my narrow-nosed gouges, but I can't find a concave version to keep at the lathe as I did with my oilstone back when I was all carbon steel. Is there one out there cheaper than an engagement ring?

I haven't bought an engagement ring in about 20 years, but I think the diamond hone/slip I bought from Alan Lacer (at $ 88) is worth the price. All but the end surfaces are diamond coated at 600 grit with two long-edge slip surfaces of different radii. Note that the diamond hone they sell at Craft Supplies is NOT the same tool (for quite a bit less - $ 28) even though they say it is in the description.

The two curved slip edges on Alan's diamond hone fit well with a range of gouges I have as to being able to hone the flute; as far as I know there are no comparable curved surfaces on the diamond hone sold by Craft Supplies, and this only has diamond on one flat side. This likely accounts for the price difference; you get what you pay for. See http://www.alanlacer.com/ for more information - no affiliation, other than being a satisfied customer.

I also use this diamond stone during demos when there is no grinder available - works quite well. One or two dropped and shattered oilstone slips and replacements would at least be equal the cost of the diamond hone which is more or less indestructible given normal use. And the diamond hone is used dry, or with water - a lot easier and less messy than anything used with oil.

If your engagement ring is an investment into a long-term relationship, couldn't you also set up a similar investment with your diamond honing tool?

Rob

 

[waltben]

Over grinding will remove more metal than needed. Appropriate grinding and honing can be resharpened by subsequent honing to an extent. The issue causing enough metal to be removed that would make one want to turn a good gouge into a pyramid tool is more along the line of automotive body work or weld smoothing.

Several folks have demonstrated in many symposiums that once you've got the profile you want for a tool, sharpening only requires a gentle pass over a grinding wheel. One person I saw claimed that if the tip got too hot for him to hold in his hand, he'd had it against the grinding wheel too long.

I hone by cloth wheel and buffing compound. I don't have to regrind every time either, just as those using slip stones or diamond hones. I prefer the cloth wheel as it gets into the corners of every tool without my having to get twenty diamond hones or slip stones.