Thompson gouge input

[Jamie Straw]

Time to replace my 3/8" spindle gouge. Am looking at a couple, including the Thompson gouges. Three questions.

1. The side grind looks different -- less swept-back -- than what I've been aiming for. Advantages/disadvantages? (yes, I know I can re-grind them, but curious about his grind)
2. What different applications (or size of work) lend themselves to using his "spindle gouge" as opposed to his "detail gouge" -- there is a difference in the depth of the flute apparently (% of tool diameter taken up by flute)
3. For those who use his tools and handles, how do you like the handles? I have a D-Way bowl gouge that has Dave's handle on it, and really like it. Have never used a tool with aluminum surface to hold on to.

Thanks!

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Time to replace my 3/8" spindle gouge. Am looking at a couple, including the Thompson gouges. Three questions.

1. The side grind looks different -- less swept-back -- than what I've been aiming for. Advantages/disadvantages? (yes, I know I can re-grind them, but curious about his grind)
2. What different applications (or size of work) lend themselves to using his "spindle gouge" as opposed to his "detail gouge" -- there is a difference in the depth of the flute apparently (% of tool diameter taken up by flute)
3. For those who use his tools and handles, how do you like the handles? I have a D-Way bowl gouge that has Dave's handle on it, and really like it. Have never used a tool with aluminum surface to hold on to.

Thanks!

Jamie,

I know that the true, experienced experts will chime in here before long, but let me tell you my opinion. First off, I do use Doug's tools (and pat on the back, persuaded him to make that 1/8" parting tool last year before the Phoenix symposium. He said he didn't make a parting tool because of the high scrap rate but it's great that he's the kind of guy who did it anyway. I bought extras just in case he stopped making them).

I use his detail gouge, parting tool, a couple of humongous gouges. I've reground the big gouge to something like the Ellsworth grind and left the others as they were. The detail gouge has a bit shallower flute and so it doesn't clog up and the others are V-flutes.

I also use the Ellsworth grind Crown PM bowl gouge a lot and love it. I do prefer more of a swept back grind but that's because it's what I'm used to. Every veteran turner on this forum can probably take any grind and do great work with it.

As to handles, I prefer to make my own and don't like the feel of the aluminum personally. I also don't like swapping out tools and handles. Plus, I tend to make different size handles for different tools. For example, I have a Terry Owens round nose scraper. Great tool from Henry Taylor, huge hunk of round steel, but the handle is too short in my opinion so I'm going to make a longer handle for it.

Anyway, you can't go wrong with Doug Thompson's tools.

Mark

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

I have his detail gouge (along with several others) and love it. I recently made a handle for his 1/4" gouge and it is a sweet tool as well. I do like his handles and don't mind the aluminum. They feel very solid and absorb some vibration. As Mark said you really can't go wrong with Doug's tools.

Mark, thanks for getting him to make some parting tools for the symposium. It's the one tool I picked up from him!


Doug

 

[Fred Belknap]

I have a D-Way gouge with a Thompson handle on it, probably my most used tool. I like that I can lay it down and it won't role off, his handles are very good.

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

Doug puts Doug's grind on all the tools.
He has found the quickest was to sharpen a gouge with a repeatable, usable edge.
He sharpens all of the tools, himself, by hand ( with a wolverine/varigrind jig ) and has gotten it figured out pretty well.
There are a pretty infinite number of variations of nose angle bevel length, etc.
Eventually you may find two or three that you like. At that point it is up to you to get comfortable repeating those grinds on the appropriate tools.

Convoluted way of saying Doug's grind is fine, but you will change it over time to suit your needs.

The Detail gouge allows for a longer, swept back grind that you can extend a bit longer over the tool rest. The extra material gives the gouge additional stiffness.
This can be helpful when turning off axis spindles.
His standard spindle gouges are pretty standard, using 'normal grinds.

I have several of Doug's handles and like them quite a bit. They do no roll and the diameter is fine for my hands.
They are a bit cold in the winter, so I have used some lacrosse stick grip tape to soften the cold feel a bit.

There are lots of nice handles available. Trent Bosch makes a nice line of them. He also sells a set of adapter sleeves so that you can mix and match gouges with handles. With most handles you buy a specific 'nose' size that fits a single diameter gouge. Trent's setup allows you to buy a handle with a 1/2" 'nose' and use 1/2" 3/8" and 1/4" gouges. There are different combos and quite a bit of flexibility. They do roll however.
The collet or quick release style handles seem nice, I don't have any of those.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I have his detail gouge (along with several others) and love it. I recently made a handle for his 1/4" gouge and it is a sweet tool as well. I do like his handles and don't mind the aluminum. They feel very solid and absorb some vibration. As Mark said you really can't go wrong with Doug's tools.

Mark, thanks for getting him to make some parting tools for the symposium. It's the one tool I picked up from him!


Doug

I realize it sounds like I twisted his arm, but really all I did was ask (not trying to sound self-important).
And I agree with you, it's a very nice tool.

 

[john lucas]

The 3/8" thompson detail gouge is my second most used tool besides my 1/2" Thompson bowl gouge. I also have a 1/2" thompson spindle gouge. I sharpen my detail gouge using the same settings as my bowl gouge but with a block in the V arm to raise the spindle gouge higher on the wheel. This produces a 35 degree front bevel where my bowl gouge has about 50 degree front bevel. Both have swept back wings. If I'm doing larger spindles with long ogee's or larger sloping designs I will use the spindle gouge. The front nose on it is ground more like your fingernail so it cuts a lot like the skew. I do sharpen it differently so it simply has a more broad arc that I'll call the tip or cutting edge. It's not as good for getting into details, particularly when you need 2 beads right next to each other. The detail gouge is great for all smaller details. I also use it to make the dovetail cuts for my chuck tenons. I use it almost entirely for Christmas ornaments and will use it with the skew and parting tool to do all of my wine stoppers. The detail gouge is a very versatile tool. You can find a video on how I sharpen that tool in one of my sharpening videos.
Personally I'm about 50/50 on Doug's handles. Most of the time they are just fine. However in the winter I would prefer a wood handle for warmth. Still when you actually hold the aluminum handle at first it's cold but then your hands tend to warm it up so it's really not that bad. I only have one weighted handle. I have a 5/8" bowl gouge that I use for roughing and have the weighted handle on it to reduce the vibration and chatter. When I travel I like these handles because I can remove the cutter to make storing them smaller or in some cases can insert the tool upside down inside the handle which protects the edge.

 

[Jamie Straw]

[snip] With most handles you buy a specific 'nose' size that fits a single diameter gouge. Trent's setup allows you to buy a handle with a 1/2" 'nose' and use 1/2" 3/8" and 1/4" gouges. There are different combos and quite a bit of flexibility. They do roll however.
The collet or quick release style handles seem nice, I don't have any of those.

I'll have to check those out, along with the people Doug Thompson cites in his FAQ. Dave Schweitzer (D-way) has bushings for his handles to adapt to tools of different diameters, and quick-change knobs to replace the set-screws. My hands are so beat-up from the heavy work I used to do with the horses that I do better with something bigger in diameter than I might otherwise. Fingers just don't bend that well. I'm not averse to making my own handles down the road, but can't hurt to have some commercial ones too. I have enough Madrone to make probably 50-75 handles, maybe more. Big, tall chunk of it lounging next to the lumber rack.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Leaning toward detail gouge

The 3/8" thompson detail gouge is my second most used tool besides my 1/2" Thompson bowl gouge. I also have a 1/2" thompson spindle gouge. I sharpen my detail gouge using the same settings as my bowl gouge but with a block in the V arm to raise the spindle gouge higher on the wheel. This produces a 35 degree front bevel where my bowl gouge has about 50 degree front bevel. Both have swept back wings. If I'm doing larger spindles with long ogee's or larger sloping designs I will use the spindle gouge. The front nose on it is ground more like your fingernail so it cuts a lot like the skew. I do sharpen it differently so it simply has a more broad arc that I'll call the tip or cutting edge. It's not as good for getting into details, particularly when you need 2 beads right next to each other. The detail gouge is great for all smaller details. I also use it to make the dovetail cuts for my chuck tenons.[snip]

Thanks for the details on those various tools and how you use/sharpen them. I'm leaning toward the detail gouge, and your explanation leans me further, since I'll be doing mostly small spindle stuff to start with. I have 3 bowl gouges, and scrapers, so I'm pretty OK for starting back on the bowls (deserted years ago, green, and waiting to be finished). I'd like to try making a block for raising the spindle gouge. Can you give me a hint as to "how high"?

 

[Joe Penn]

I use Robert Sorby bowl gouges and I guess the shape is more of a traditional grind. I have a David Ellsworth bowl gouge and I don’t like it at all; I can’t cut anything with it; I realize it’s me and not the tool. However I like the traditional grinds better.

The Doug Thompson gouges seem, from the pictures at least, to be more of a traditional grind bowl gouge. Is this true? Anyone use traditional grinds and Thompson’s enough to compare the two types?

 

[robo hippy]

I do prefer the wood handles. I have seen a number of different handles out there, and still come back to wood, just for the feel. Serious tools has a nice foam covered handle. Some of the plastic covers are nice. I do have 2 of Dave's handles with the round knob for tightening, and they work okay, but I don't really care for the weight as they are a bit on the heavy side. Fine for a little turning, but not so much for a lot of turning. Same with the shot filled handles. Who wants to hold all that extra weight for a few hours of turning? At the Symposium this year, I saw a new collet chuck/collar thing for gouge handles that Robust will be selling. 4 sizes. What I like about them, compared to the others is that it looks like a router collet set up as in the inside part has a bunch of slots cut into it, sides are tapered, and you have a big nut that you screw down over it. Brent did say he will be selling sets of them. The nice thing about this type of set up is for traveling, you can take the tool out and all of your tools are shorter, and much easier to pack into shorter boxes. I do have some longer handles.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Like Reed,
I like wooden handles. I can turn them any shape I like.
There is plenty of scrap bin hardwood for handles.
Just turned one from some free,sapelie.

The handles fit my hand and length is what I want.
I can get a bit fancy if I want 3 sides with (3 centers). or oval with two sides ( two centers).
I use copper and brass pipe fitting for ferrets.

When the tool is replaced I knock the handle off and drive the handle onto the new tool.
Almost all of my tools are just friction fit with no glue.
If the tool is loose I use a few drops of thick CA to hold it in places.
The CA will fracture when I knock the handle off don't even need to remember which ones have CA.

My handles are bare wood with no finish.

I should add.
I have one red glaser handle. It now has a 1/4" Thompson(3/8 bar) gouge to replace my glaser.
That handle is light.

AL

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Like Reed,
I like wooden handles. I can turn them any shape I like.
There is plenty of scrap bin hardwood for handles.
Just turned one from some free,sapelie.

The handles fit my hand and length is what I want.
I can get a bit fancy if I want 3 sides with (3 centers). or oval with two sides ( two centers).
I use copper and brass pipe fitting for ferrets.

When the tool is replaced I knock the handle off and drive the handle onto the new tool.
Almost all of my tools are just friction fit with no glue.
If the tool is loose I use a few drops of thick CA to hold it in places.
The CA will fracture when I knock the handle off don't even need to remember which ones have CA.

My handles are bare wood with no finish.

I should add.
I have one red glaser handle. It now has a 1/4" Thompson(3/8 bar) gouge to replace my glaser.
That handle is light.

AL

AL,

I like that idea of using a bit of CA. I have epoxied the tools into the handle. Never until this moment thought about the handle outlasting the tool (or breaking and needing to be replaced).

 

[robo hippy]

The only problem I have with wood handles is that in the dry summers here, the ferrules almost all come loose.

robo hippy

 

[Mark Hepburn]

The only problem I have with wood handles is that in the dry summers here, the ferrules almost all come loose.

robo hippy

I would have thought "dry summer" would be an oxymoron for Oregon, or is that just Portland?

 

[Bill Boehme]

What Mark Wollschlager said! Doug Thompson personally puts a grind on the tools that he is able to do fast and that works well so that when you get one of his tools you can start using it right out of the little plastic tube before you even put a handle on it (at least that's what I have done on several occasions). Most of us has a favorite shape for each of our tools and there's no reason that you can't do that with any tool that you own. I have the Thompson half-inch deetail gouge that I have changed to to have more swept back wings that the shape as it comes out of the tube.

Doing it the way that he does makes a lot of sense. Suppose, on the other hand, that he decided to put a long swept back wing on his detail detail gouges rather than the current shape. This would mean that anybody who bought the tool would the be restricted to that shape for a long time or else would need to be willing to grind away a lot of metal if they wanted a more blunt profile.

 

[hockenbery]

The only problem I have with wood handles is that in the dry summers here, the ferrules almost all come loose. robo hippy

I used to get loose Ferrells when we had a basement turning studio in the Maryland winters.
A drop of Thick CA works on the metal Ferrells.

You can also make some elegant Ferrells from cord wound around and whip finished like a fly head.

Al

 

[Jamie Straw]

Not too heavy, but not too light...

I do prefer the wood handles. I have seen a number of different handles out there, and still come back to wood, just for the feel. Serious tools has a nice foam covered handle. Some of the plastic covers are nice. I do have 2 of Dave's handles with the round knob for tightening, and they work okay, but I don't really care for the weight as they are a bit on the heavy side. Fine for a little turning, but not so much for a lot of turning. Same with the shot filled handles. Who wants to hold all that extra weight for a few hours of turning? At the Symposium this year, I saw a new collet chuck/collar thing for gouge handles that Robust will be selling. 4 sizes. What I like about them, compared to the others is that it looks like a router collet set up as in the inside part has a bunch of slots cut into it, sides are tapered, and you have a big nut that you screw down over it. Brent did say he will be selling sets of them. The nice thing about this type of set up is for traveling, you can take the tool out and all of your tools are shorter, and much easier to pack into shorter boxes. I do have some longer handles.

robo hippy

I wouldn't want too much weight, but a couple of the first gouges I bought had such light handles, I could barely tell where they were or what I was doing with them. Will keep an eye out for the new Robust collars, sounds intriguing. Not that I travel with my turning tools but I might, if I head down to OR. Have a cousin in Bend, could stop by Eugene on the way.

 

[john lucas]

Jamie In my video I show the Wolverine jig on top of the little V block that sits in the V arm. A much better option is to sit the tool in front of the V block and to put a magnet on the block to keep it in place. The way I decide how long to make the block (or how high if you really want to use what i did in that video) is to decide what angle you want your various spindle gouges. I have some ground at 35 degrees and some at 45. Anyway what I do is to place the V arm in the position that my bowl gouge goes. Then I put the spindle gouge that I've ground the nose to the angle I want, in the Wolverine jig. Now I place it in the V arm like you normally would but I slide the bottom arm of the Wolverine jig forward until the grind stone matches the angle I want on the spindle gouge. Now it's simply a matter of making a block long enough so the Arm of the Wolverine jigs rides at this point. What I did when I first tried this was to carve into the top of the block until the jig with the spindle gouge sat against the stone where I wanted. It worked and I've used it that way all of these years but it's so much simpler to make a block that is long enough so the Wolverine rides in the V arm just like it does with the bowl gouge except it's further forward.
The reason I started doing that was so that I could leave the V arm exactly where it is for the bowl gouge and sharpen my other tools without ever moving it. Saves time and is extremely repeatable which saves steel when you grind.

 

[hockenbery]

The Geiger Vertical solution has a little rod with built in stops in the pocket.
In addition to being able to set the pocket height you can now change the effective distance of the pocket from the wheel
to change bevel angle with the same jig set up or with the fixed Ellsworth jig.

It does the same thing as wooden blocks.
Metal on metal has less resistance but probably nothing us humans can detect.
With one setup you can sharpen bowl gouges, move the pin in and sharpen spindle gouges.

Al

 

[robo hippy]

Rainy season here is October to April or May, 40 plus inches. June through September, maybe 3 to 6 inches. I did have all the collars come loose when I went down to Phoenix last summer. Furniture repair places do a great business with people who move there. I am not sure how the CA would work on the ferrules. It would help at least until the next summer.

I have ground a few gouges down to nubs. It is more difficult now as I have quite a number of them to wear out. I have maybe 1 of everything, Thompson and D Way at least... I must experiment....

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

The reason I started doing that was so that I could leave the V arm exactly where it is for the bowl gouge and sharpen my other tools without ever moving it. Saves time and is extremely repeatable which saves steel when you grind.

Yep, that advantage has my attention for sure. Thanks for all that detail, will definitely follow up. I have a couple of bowl gouges that Dave sharpened for me, I can use them as models.

 

[Dean Center]

Jamie,
Be aware that Doug also makes and sells a 'Shallow Detail Gouge' in addition to the Spindle Gouge and Detail Gouge. The 'shallow' one is pretty atypical and almost certainly not what you want.