I have been using the "factory" grind on my gouges to date but would like to do some shaping to some other grinds to step up my turning game. I currently have a 180 grit CBN wheel that I use with the Oneway system for sharpening. In your opinion, is it worth the investment to go with an 80 grit CBN wheel for shaping? Anyone use a 180 grit for shaping?
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Shaping gouges
- Thread starter Rob Gabel
- Start date
I use my disc sander for gross shaping, and then either the 180grit CBN for scraper sharpening or grinding off the heel of gouges; or the 600grit wheel for gouges sharpening with the wolverine jig (not sure the 600 isn’t overkill, but that’s what Woodturners Wonders recommended at the time).
Use 150g CBN for shaping, no issues.
I use the disc sander mounted in a vice for shaping a new grind. 180 grit CBN for initial sharpening. 600 grit CBN for tuning up while turning. After a couple hours of turning time, go back to the 180 for refresh.
For any major re-shaping I mount an old #40 grinding wheel (Norton Blu Max 3x, but any similar coarse and open grit wheel will do) on my bench grinder.
For minor reshaping I use #80 CBN, which was more aggressive when new but far less so now after much use.
For refreshing edges on HSS I use #360 CBN and try to keep it for just that.
For carbide I use #1,000 diamond.
For minor reshaping I use #80 CBN, which was more aggressive when new but far less so now after much use.
For refreshing edges on HSS I use #360 CBN and try to keep it for just that.
For carbide I use #1,000 diamond.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
I have used my 180 for shaping. It takes patience but it works. There are faster ways of course...
I have a 80 that I use for shaping and scrapers. It works well. Major regrinding I will probably use the 40 grit wheel on my regular bench grinder.
Ron,
I've bought various CBN wheels for grinding and sharpening and used them long enough for careful evaluation. For a while I used 180 and 320 grit wheels but I wasn't satisfied - too fine for heavy removal and too coarse for sharpening to suit me.
So I added an 80 grit CBN to a second bench grinder for shaping, then after a while got a 60 grit. In my opinion 60 grit CBN is significantly faster than even the 80 when I want to remove a lot of metal, such as grinding special NRS shapes from thick Thompson 10v steel.
From the 60 grit, I go directly to a 600 grit wheel for sharpening - this works so well for me. Sharpening after the coarse grinding takes almost no extra time. I use the 600 grit for all skews, all scrapers including NRS, parting tools, bedan, and bowl gouges. I use a combination of Wolverine, Vari-Grind, and Tormek jigs. For shaving-sharp tools I strop each with a leather wheel treated with polishing compound.
So after some experimentation I've stuck with this combination for some years now:
- 60 grit CBN on a slow (1/2) speed bench grinder for shaping.
- 600 grit CBN on the other side of the bench grinder for sharpening most tools.
- A Tormek with a 1200 grit CBN for sharpening my spindle gouges.
- A wide leather wheel and some profiled leather wheels on the Tormek for stropping/polishing all cutting edges.
BTW, I added a foot switch to the Tormek for convenience - it's instant on/off and doesn't need time to spin up and down like a bench grinder.
And some unsolicited comments:
Whatever the wheel (in my humble opinion) don't fall for the Vari-Grind 2 jig. I bought one to try and dislike it. I keep it arouind to show people why.
The original Vari-Grind is great for bowl and spindle gouges as is the Tormek jig, but I sharpen everything else freehand.
Also, IMO, the CBN wheels with the radiused edges are useful for a specific application but are a waste of wheel width for most turners. I buy the wheels with 90-deg edge and 1" of grit down the flat of each side. I use both the corner and flat for grinding and sharpening some custom tools.
JKJ
On bowl gouge jigs, I can't comment on the Vari-Grind 2 jig or its original version, but have used and made many other BG jigs. Of those I settled sometime ago on the Woodcut Tru-Grind and this 3D printed one from eBay... https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/334899734412 The 3D one required different settings to the Tru-Grind, but it is OK and the price is right! I have multiple toolholders with the different settings that I use so I don't any of those, but just the slide position.
If you are into 3D printing there are files that you can download to print your own.
I had and personally didn't like the Vicmarc setup.... over engineered and too clunky for me.
As mentioned, I've made a few of my own BG jigs, and if you are into DIY here is a link to a thread I put together on that...
DIY gouge jigs
I raised DIY gouge jigs in the thread on Free hand grinding or a jig started by Auscab. It's been awhile since there has been a dedicated thread on DIY gouge jigs, so thought it might be useful to bri
www.woodworkforums.com
I use a Norton Blu Max 3x 46gr for shaping, and I’ve done a lot of it. All my bowl gouges (probably done ~8 on this wheel) get reshaped from factory grinds, and all my scrapers are purchased for the blank, and reshaped into various flat top and nrs profiles. The wheel is holding up well considering the amount of use. I used an 80gr cbn at a fellow turner’s shop to shape some tools for him, took probably twice as long vs the 46gr.
I use the same wheel in 80 gr to sharpen scrapers and skews, then hone with diamond paddles. Use a wet grinder for sharpening gouges - the stone can be graded to various grits using diamond bench stones - Bevels can be highly polished or down to ~220gr. With the slow material removal with a wet grinder, tools last a looong time, and get very sharp.
I use the same wheel in 80 gr to sharpen scrapers and skews, then hone with diamond paddles. Use a wet grinder for sharpening gouges - the stone can be graded to various grits using diamond bench stones - Bevels can be highly polished or down to ~220gr. With the slow material removal with a wet grinder, tools last a looong time, and get very sharp.
I always have a white wheel for shaping and have a 80 grit CBN for sharpening scrapers and a 180 grit CBN fore my gouges.
My 2 cents: If you just want to modify your current grind a little, say change the nose angle from 60 to 50, your CBN wheel will work OK. If you want to go down the Rabbit Hole of experimenting with different grinds, from Ellsworth to Batty, you may be better off with a coarser wheel, and an 'inexpensive' stone wheel will work fine. Most of us have one in the drawer.
John what don't you like about the varigrind 2 jig? I have one not sure I like it either. Thinking about getting the original varigrind jig.
Another thing I didn't mention about my grinding setup choices - they reflect what I like mostly to turn. I almost always turn dry wood, hard wood with very fine grain, often spindle oriented, and aim for cuts that need little or no sanding, maybe a but of 600 grit by hand. I do no power sanding with rotating disks on bowls or platters. I think some of this is easier with the wheel grits I choose.
As an example, the Holly finial was straight off the tool, zero sanding. The gouges and skews need sharp, stropped, and polished edges.
I think I had to touch up the ebony finial with 800 grit sandpaper.
For larger things, I still want razor sharp tools but usually need to smooth with hand scrapers before sanding with fine grit.
The piece needed only 600 grit after shaping. Granted, it is made of cedar, relatively soft. But in years past I did a lot more sanding on pieces like this.
Those who turn differently, for example large green once and twice-turned pieces, furniture legs and such, may have no use for my selection of CBN wheels and may prefer different sharpening methods and grits. Good thing we have so many options these days!
BTW, I do have two other bench grinders in my shop with conventional grinding wheels, one with a wire brush and a very coarse wheel in my welding shop, and a RIkon with a couple of the blue Norton 3x wheels. I don't use these for lathe tools but for other things I don't want to grind with CBN.
One suggestion if using traditional grinding wheels: the Oneway wheel balancing kit is amazing, hate to be without it. Well worth the cost.
Norm, from my experience it keeps most of the grind in or near the center of the wheel, depending on the stickout. This is great for those who have trouble controlling a standard jig because it won't let you accidentally slide the tool off the edge of the wheel and scar it up or at least give you a fright. However, again in my experience, it tends to wear down the center of the wheel. Maybe I didn't learn to use it properly but from reading the manuals carefully I don't see how it could work differently. I didn't like the potentially haphazard method of setting the angle either.
If you want to try one, maybe you can buy from a dealer who will accept returns if you don't like it. Or find a used one for cheap. Or maybe you will like it!
I keep several of the original varigrind jigs, one updated with a little kit they offered at one time. I don't have the one made for large diameter tool shafts since I don't typially use them and can grind by hand if needed.
I have more comments about the Wolverine system in generat but maybe for another thread. I'll just give one: get the mini platform! The large platform is way too big when sharpening tools by hand when the amount of tool left gets too small. I bougt two of the mini platforms and generally use only them.
Ok, another: cut off about half of that stupid long arm on the V-arm. Not needed unless you use their suggestiong to hold a long tool handle in the vee while sharpening spindle roughing gouges or skews with their skew jig. The geometry of sharping this way can lead to a destructive disaaster in certain situations. Some have experienced this the hard way.
OK, I quit now.
JKJ
As an example, the Holly finial was straight off the tool, zero sanding. The gouges and skews need sharp, stropped, and polished edges.
I think I had to touch up the ebony finial with 800 grit sandpaper.
For larger things, I still want razor sharp tools but usually need to smooth with hand scrapers before sanding with fine grit.
The piece needed only 600 grit after shaping. Granted, it is made of cedar, relatively soft. But in years past I did a lot more sanding on pieces like this.
Those who turn differently, for example large green once and twice-turned pieces, furniture legs and such, may have no use for my selection of CBN wheels and may prefer different sharpening methods and grits. Good thing we have so many options these days!
BTW, I do have two other bench grinders in my shop with conventional grinding wheels, one with a wire brush and a very coarse wheel in my welding shop, and a RIkon with a couple of the blue Norton 3x wheels. I don't use these for lathe tools but for other things I don't want to grind with CBN.
One suggestion if using traditional grinding wheels: the Oneway wheel balancing kit is amazing, hate to be without it. Well worth the cost.
Norm, from my experience it keeps most of the grind in or near the center of the wheel, depending on the stickout. This is great for those who have trouble controlling a standard jig because it won't let you accidentally slide the tool off the edge of the wheel and scar it up or at least give you a fright. However, again in my experience, it tends to wear down the center of the wheel. Maybe I didn't learn to use it properly but from reading the manuals carefully I don't see how it could work differently. I didn't like the potentially haphazard method of setting the angle either.
If you want to try one, maybe you can buy from a dealer who will accept returns if you don't like it. Or find a used one for cheap. Or maybe you will like it!
I keep several of the original varigrind jigs, one updated with a little kit they offered at one time. I don't have the one made for large diameter tool shafts since I don't typially use them and can grind by hand if needed.
I have more comments about the Wolverine system in generat but maybe for another thread. I'll just give one: get the mini platform! The large platform is way too big when sharpening tools by hand when the amount of tool left gets too small. I bougt two of the mini platforms and generally use only them.
Ok, another: cut off about half of that stupid long arm on the V-arm. Not needed unless you use their suggestiong to hold a long tool handle in the vee while sharpening spindle roughing gouges or skews with their skew jig. The geometry of sharping this way can lead to a destructive disaaster in certain situations. Some have experienced this the hard way.
OK, I quit now.
JKJ
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Well, Dave Schweitzer from D Way used to use a 60 grit CBN wheel on a 10 inch high speed grinder for shaping his tools. If you have serious stock removal to do, then a belt sander with a 36 grit belt really helps. You could even make a sanding disc to mount on your lathe and use PSA 36 or so grit. Having a high speed grinder can help a lot too since the wheels that come standard on them are usually in the 36 to 80 grit range, and of course, keep your wheels clean and graded.
robo hippy
robo hippy
I use a 180 grit to reshape and 320 for touch up.
I have 80 and 360 grit CBNs. I also have a Bucktool grinder, although mine is a two-speed.
I have a standard grinder 8" with 80 grit and 240 grit, along with a CBN grinder 140grit and 600grit also 8" Both are high speed, although I would prefer the standard to be 1400 as its a general grinder for 'everything else'
What grit on the white wheels for shaping?
I use 80 grit on a belt grinder for reshaping tools.
Stewart I probably used the rougher of the two that came on the specific grinder but either would do the job. The rougher one would do it a little faster.
Color may not always be the final judge of a wheel, but white (or maybe pink, or maybe blue) aluminum oxide wheels in 36 to 60 grit will work well to shape a turning tool.
And if the manufacturer gets specific enough, grade J or K wheels should be chosen. That refers to the construction of the wheel, the binding agent if you will, holding the abrasive together. J and K wheels are fairly friable, meaning the wheel surface breaks down relatively easier in the grinding process to expose fresh grit. No worries, they'll last for years. But even though they are friable, you still need to dress them with a diamond dresser every few grindings.
CGW makes affordable, good quality wheels. See their AZ Blue and WA White wheels here. They are K wheels, and I've used several of both colors over the years. Their website should have more info. They should be pretty easy to find from online sellers.
Bench Vitrified Wheels | Vitrified Wheels | CGW Abrasives
Manufacturer of Grinding Wheels and Abrasives | Bench Vitrified Wheels | Vitrified Wheels
www.cgwabrasives.com
Norton also has a very good line of wheels. Again, look for their J or K aluminum oxide offerings, and they may come in other colors.
Any "stone" wheel will need to be trued, and Oneway's diamond point jig works very well for this. After 5 or 6 dressing with a hand-held diamond dresser, I'll true it again with the Oneway diamond jig.
If you search for the August 2002 (yep, 2002) newsletter of the Minnesota Woodturners Association, I have a few articles in there about grinding and tuning up stone wheels, including photos. You should be able to download it as a pdf file.
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