Serious lathe accidents and injurys.......a preventive idea

[Odie]

The post concerning the accident Lynn Yamaguchi had at her lathe recently, has brought back a thought I had a few years ago, but never acted on it.......I think I've seen and heard enough of these personal injuries from lathe turners to finally do something for my own protection.......

Since I've been participating on these AAW forums, very serious accidents have been all too common. Probably at least once or twice a year, someone has been very seriously injured, and it has been reported here.....and if I'm not mistaken, there was one death a couple years ago.

It seems to me that most all of the more serious injuries were caused by partially turned blocks of wood that flew apart while the wood was still very heavy and solid. Before roughing is completed, the centrifugal forces are tremendous, because of the added weight involved. After the roughing stage, it appears as if the likelihood of the wood coming apart is greatly reduced.... (but not eliminated, of course!) A "catch" could always be a cause for bowl to break, no matter what stage of completion.......

For years, I've contemplated getting a football helmet with wire cage for protection at the lathe during the roughing stage of some "suspect" problem bowls. After looking over football, hockey, and lacrosse helmets, I've decided the overall best cage designs are on the helmets designed for ice hockey. The cages here seem to be better suited, because of the tighter mesh of the wire cage.

In trying to anticipate comments from one of our members here.....I realize the common safety precaution for turners is to simply stay out of the "line of fire" when turning.......but, there are times when I'd prefer to have the best view of what I'm doing, and the best positioning of my body for the cutting I'm doing at the moment.......therefore, having the hockey helmet is a safety measure that allows that preference, and covers the safety concerns to what seems like an adequate degree. (I've never tried the helmet, so I'm making assumptions on it's application, for the moment.)

Having this hockey helmet is going to reduce the "pucker factor" I'm sure most all of us have felt from time to time. Since I don't intend to use it in every case, but a few that seem likely to be problematic, there is still a certain amount of gamble I'm willing to take........but, the odds of my avoiding an injury will be greatly improved! :cool2:

I anticipate not using, or needing the chin strap. Hopefully I'll be able to use my Resp-o-rator while using the helmet, but if removal of the chin strap doesn't give enough room for that, the cage itself can be modified somewhat to allow for it......I think.

Any comments on this is certainly encouraged......thanks!

Here is a photo of the type of ice hockey helmet I'm in the market to purchase:


ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

http://www.powermatic.com/Products.aspx?Part=1352001

http://sports.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981674778

 

[Paul M. Kaplowitz]

Protection

I have used an Airmate Three for over 15 years. This has a heavy Lexan face plate attached to a hard hat. It also has a filter box with a fan attached by a hose to the hard hat. I have been hit so hard that it cracked the face shield with no damage to my face. This was due to a bark inclusion that was not visible from the outside of the blank. Anyone turning without a heavy face shield and head protection is gambling on a serious accident. And I don't like the odds. Sooner or later a piece of wood, bark or other will come flying off the lathe. That is a consequence of what we do.

 

[Odie]

http://www.powermatic.com/Products.aspx?Part=1352001

http://sports.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981674778

MM.......

You are the person whom I tried to anticipate his comments......sigh.

I'm not interested in adding a cage to my lathe, or purchasing a lathe that has one.

I'm not anticipating a concussion, due to sustained and repeated blows to my head over an extended period of time.......just trying to prevent an injury like Lynn Yamaguchi had, and a few others have had while at their lathes. I'd be willing to bet she didn't think it would ever happen to her, either.....


ooc

 

[Odie]

I have used an Airmate Three for over 15 years. This has a heavy Lexan face plate attached to a hard hat. It also has a filter box with a fan attached by a hose to the hard hat. I have been hit so hard that it cracked the face shield with no damage to my face. This was due to a bark inclusion that was not visible from the outside of the blank. Anyone turning without a heavy face shield and head protection is gambling on a serious accident. And I don't like the odds. Sooner or later a piece of wood, bark or other will come flying off the lathe. That is a consequence of what we do.

Yep.....truth there, Paul.......

Besides the Resp-o-rator, I have had an Airstream helmet for 20 years now. It's probably better than my regular face shield, but would your Airmate, or my Airstream hold up to the kind of blow that broke all the bones on the side of Lynn Yamaguchi's face? They might, but I suspect we are getting into the kind of territory that neither of these air filtration devices were intended to accommodate.........Without looking it up, I believe she said the piece that hit her was a kilo.......2.2 lbs, and at 1200 rpm......that sounds like it might have been a pretty serious blow.........wouldn't you think?

I've pretty much decided to get the hockey helmet for the specific use I perceive. I won't be using it that much, but when I do, it will be comforting to know it's there........

thanks

ooc

 

[Gynia]

Have you considered a ballistic helmet and face mask. These things are designed to protect against bullets and shrapnel. The down side is cost. But if you want protection from flying hunks of wood thes things will protect your head and face. I doubt that someone accustom to turning bare faced would wear one of these for very long. But wearing this while roughing suspect wood, along with safe turning practices should make a turning "event" survivable with perhaps a case of whiplash.

Learning how to make a cut while keeping your head out of the way is a safe turning practice which we should all promote. If you take as a turning requirement that your head remains out of the way when making all cuts then you will soon find that there is little or no advantage to a cut that is made where your head is in danger. Your face and head can still get HIT with a flying hunk of wood but the majority of flying wood will be a fly by instead of an attack.

 

[Fred Belknap]

Thanks for bring up this topic. Something similar usually comes up after someone has a significant accident to warrant posting about it. The usual conclusion is to wear a face shield, turn at a lower rpm, stay out of the line of fire, all of which most of us violate to some extent. The guard on the PM line of lathes is mostly for law suit mitigation. The face shield is good for small chips and shavings and would do very little to slow down a 1 or 2 pound object. The hockey helmet and metal face shield looks like it might work but I have my doubts if it will ever be widely accepted. What is needed is some type of protection built into the lathe at the factory that actually works. I sure that engineers have thought about how to do it but doubt if there is a way without adding quite a bit of additional expense. Think along the idea of a movable shield attached to the banjo or toolrest that would protect the head and face but have opening on the bottom for tools. Maybe a swing away guard on the headstock or tailstock.

 

[Odie]

Have you considered a ballistic helmet and face mask. These things are designed to protect against bullets and shrapnel. The down side is cost. But if you want protection from flying hunks of wood these things will protect your head and face. I doubt that someone accustom to turning bare faced would wear one of these for very long. But wearing this while roughing suspect wood, along with safe turning practices should make a turning "event" survivable with perhaps a case of whiplash.

Learning how to make a cut while keeping your head out of the way is a safe turning practice which we should all promote. If you take as a turning requirement that your head remains out of the way when making all cuts then you will soon find that there is little or no advantage to a cut that is made where your head is in danger. Your face and head can still get HIT with a flying hunk of wood but the majority of flying wood will be a fly by instead of an attack.

Hey, thanks for the ballistics helmet idea, Gynia...........


That would be an option, if they weren't so expensive.......around $650 new. It's possible to get lucky, and find a used one dirt cheap, but I don't think it's as likely as finding a good used sports helmet that will do just as well as the ballistics helmet w/bullet proof face shield. (I do see quite a few ballistics helmets without frontal protection, that are quite a bit cheaper.)

I'm hoping to get what I want for around $25+shipping used, but it looks like I might have to spend a little more than that.

You know, I'd have to agree that much of the time you can stay out of the way without limiting performance of the cut, but from my point of view, there are times where the best cut is had with flow of body movement that is unrestricted. Being able to have the best view of what you are doing is another thing that isn't always the best without restrictions of where your eyes can be. Some species, and gnarly, figured, burly, swirly, knotty, bark inclusions, .....and, otherwise most beautiful pieces of wood, are exactly the ones that are the most demanding, dangerous, and requires the most skill to turn.....are the very ones that benefit the most from unrestricted body and eye limitations. Because of these things that are absolutes to my application of turning.........I'm one that will disagree with your assessment that restricting these things makes no difference at all, to everyone, and under all circumstances.

If I were going to give advice to a novice turner, I'd never advise that person to do what I intend to do........but, just like in most all things requiring skill where there is risk, you'll hear from those who advance their skill by pushing the limits of safety. This doesn't mean that safety is thrown out the window altogether........but, it does mean that where safety can be implemented with a reasonable attention to the risks, then some safety concerns can become less limiting to the most advantageous application of skill........ That may not be a reasonable statement to some people reading this, but I'm quite sure there are others who fully understand the point I'm making.......

I'm one who is restricted in many ways where I work as a production machinist. There are many OSHA regulations that are limiting to both speed and quality of production.....but, are requirements of the job by law. Many of these regulations are in place because they cover the least common denominator, and not specific to the individual alertness, or skill level of any one machine operator. In my own shop, the only limiting factors are what I decide they will be. By giving this example, I hope a few might better understand the value of restrictions that one can choose to follow, as opposed to what one is required to, or taught to follow. To them, it might make a little sense......to the majority, it probably never will......

ooc

 

[Odie]

Thanks for bring up this topic. Something similar usually comes up after someone has a significant accident to warrant posting about it. The usual conclusion is to wear a face shield, turn at a lower rpm, stay out of the line of fire, all of which most of us violate to some extent. The guard on the PM line of lathes is mostly for law suit mitigation. The face shield is good for small chips and shavings and would do very little to slow down a 1 or 2 pound object. The hockey helmet and metal face shield looks like it might work but I have my doubts if it will ever be widely accepted. What is needed is some type of protection built into the lathe at the factory that actually works. I sure that engineers have thought about how to do it but doubt if there is a way without adding quite a bit of additional expense. Think along the idea of a movable shield attached to the banjo or toolrest that would protect the head and face but have opening on the bottom for tools. Maybe a swing away guard on the headstock or tailstock.

Some good ideas and thinking here, Fred..........

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I think you're right that the hockey helmet isn't likely to have popular support among woodturners. As do you, I think it will work for the purpose as well, and if it does.......it will be worth whatever it costs! It's the route I've decided to take......until something better comes along.

Your ideas about movable guard or shield attaching to tool rest/banjo are food for thought, too........With a little effort, all these things are possible through a little individual effort and enginuity. Who knows, some creative person could come up with an idea that would be beneficial to the rest of us..........:cool2:

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

I believe it was Will Rogers who said, "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from, well, bad judgement." My first line of defense is standing out of the line of fire. This was burned into my behavior habits on the lathe by turning a lot of sloppy wet wood (any one ever invent wind shield wipers for a face mask or glasses?). The second line of defense is being able to judge just how much risk there is in turning any particular piece of wood, and turning accordingly. This is the experience part, which is some thing that you can give a lot of instruction about, but can't really teach.

Paul, I would be willing to bet that the bark inclusion that 'was not visible from the outside' was really visible, you just did not see it. If you were to go back and really look at the piece, especially when finished, there was most likely a hint of what was there. Kind of like the guy turning that piece of apricot a few months ago, which had a bark inclusion through the entire piece. I could see it before he started turning it, and just as he bent over to see up close what he was doing, it blew up.

I do remember seeing a thread a year or so ago, as the helmet thing keeps coming up, about 'impact ratings' for helmets. Can't remember where though. We need eye protection, head protection, and proper suspension for the helmet. This is where the positive pressure helmets come in as when your face is enclosed and protected, air flow is restricted, and your mask will fog up, especially if you are a heavy breather like I am. Yes, let the hot air comments flow! I still have a CPAP (snoring machine) that I got some years back for this use, but haven't applied yet. Maybe some day, but it is not portable.

robo hippy

 

[ray hampton]

Some good ideas and thinking here, Fred..........


Your ideas about movable guard or shield attaching to tool rest/banjo are food for thought, too........With a little effort, all these things are possible through a little individual effort and enginuity. Who knows, some creative person could come up with an idea that would be beneficial to the rest of us..........:cool2:

ooc

Are your toolrest made out of steel, then use a magnet and attach a shield to said magnet, we can buy magnets that are release by turning a switch

 

[Bill Boehme]

Have you considered a ballistic helmet and face mask. These things are designed to protect against bullets and shrapnel. The down side is cost. But if you want protection from flying hunks of wood thes things will protect your head and face.

They would not be suitable for use by woodturners because they would not absorb any of the energy of a flying hunk of wood. Their energy absorbing mechanism works on high-velocity low-mass projectiles because of its elastomeric properties that deform and dissipate the kinetic energy as heat. By comparison, a piece of wood flying off the lathe is low velocity and heavy mass. It might protect your face, but the consequences of repetitive brain trauma is not the right way to "use your head".

 

[Odie]

Are your toolrest made out of steel, then use a magnet and attach a shield to said magnet, we can buy magnets that are release by turning a switch

I have several of those magnets that I purchased at HF originally intended as a machinist's magnetic base. I don't see how what you are suggesting can be successfully done without it getting in the way, as they are several inches in length and width. Even if it was feasible, it doesn't seem like they would have the holding power necessary to stop the kind of forces we're discussing. Have you made one of these yourself?

ooc

If you look on top of my lathe's headstock, you will see three of the magnets there......two holding lamps, and another I use for holding a laser pointer.

 

[Odie]

I believe it was Will Rogers who said, "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from, well, bad judgement."
robo hippy

Ain't that the truth! Will Rogers has some "horse sense"! It's one of those things that has made great Americans, great!......I wish it were more common in today's world......

Robo Hippy........If you wouldn't mind, I would like to see some of your lathe work. I couldn't find your gallery......could you link us to it, or web page, or where ever it is we can take a look at your current turnings, please? It would help a great deal if I, and other forum participants could reference what you say, to a visual of what you do. In all these years of knowing you, I don't think I've ever seen any examples of your turnings.....imagine that!

thanks

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

The usual conclusion is to wear a face shield, turn at a lower rpm, stay out of the line of fire, all of which most of us violate to some extent.

Difference between prevention and mitigation. Armoring up would certainly help mitigate damage in the event, but the aim should be to prevent. Her blog indicates she knew the preventive measures - low energy, sound wood, stay out of the throw zone. She just didn't use them for the sake of expediency. She also mentions that she had removed her face shield, which might have mitigated the damage that observing any one of the three might have prevented.

Hope things work out for her.

There is a pretty good guard on all the machines now called a toolrest. Put it up as close as possible to the work. I've seen too many who won't even rotate the rest inside a bowl so it would catch it if the bowl took a catch and started to climb, or won't use the tilt in the traditional rest over center on the outside to defend against the same. There is also the tool in the hand of the operator, which should be working as far from his face as possible. Don't need to lean and squint. You can feel what's going on an extra two feet away. It will push a full dismount away from you, just as the properly positioned rest will do.

Then there are the muff and music set, who, in my opinion are increasing the likelihood of not hearing a developing disaster in their work. Even if the wood seems sound, if it makes a sound, there's something going wrong. Clicks from dry, clunks from wet are an instant off - with a switch out of the throw zone - and stand back until rotation ceases. Fill is not necessarily glue, so glue to turn, fill later.

Accident prevention begins - and ends - between the ears. Injury from unsafe practices might be mitigated by the shields manufacturers provide, but not if we don't use them. The helmet used on the football field is form-fitted and impact absorbing, and still a whack can result in a concussion, so imagine how much less any substitute device will do.

 

[Odie]

After checking online for used hockey helmets, I decided to run down and check to see what Play It Again Sports had, if anything.

I purchased this used ice hockey helmet for $19.99, and couldn't be happier......no sales tax and no shipping charges!

Don't anticipate the need for this helmet very often, but I'll be glad to have it for those times I question the safety of certain pieces of wood.

At that price, I wish I had done this years ago......it's like an insurance policy of sorts!

ooc

 

[Ian Thorn]

And if it dosnt work you can allways take up ice hocky

 

[Jim Livingston]

My 2 cents worth!

In reading Lynne's blog (which is quit detailed, and I thank her for that), she made one fundamental error! She assumed that because she was not cutting that she was not in danger - but in fact if the lathe is on there is danger! It's in these moments when we let our guard down - for just a moment - that we invite disaster. Had she been wearing her face shield which she removed to answer the phone, her injuries would have been greatly reduced if not all together avoided. I suspect the shield would certainly have saved her eye.

So bottom line in this instance (IMHO) wasn't that her safety equipment was inadequate, she just didn't have it on!

Now to the helmet: Although that hockey helmet is certainly better than nothing I doubt it's been tested for this application, hence the helmet itself could prove to be a hazard. Also most of the hockey helmets I have seen do not have a polycarbonate shield to protect you from smaller projectiles that could easily get past the face guard!

 

[Gretch Flo]

hockey helmet

I think you're right that the hockey helmet isn't likely to have popular support among woodturners. As do you, I think it will work for the purpose as well, and if it does.......it will be worth whatever it costs! It's the route I've decided to take......until something better comes along.


Isn't a hockey helmet made to withstand a blow from wood administered with a good deal of force I hate that sport .Gretch

 

[Odie]

Isn't a hockey helmet made to withstand a blow from wood administered with a good deal of force I hate that sport .Gretch

Mornin' Gretch.......

Yes, you are correct. These helmets for hockey have to be certified for use in the sport. I'm not sure what it involves, but there is a testing procedure. The helmet appears pretty rugged to me, and I'd say Jim Livingston is a little overly concerned in there having some testing done specifically for woodturning. The sport is brutal, and you are right that the wooden hockey sticks are wooden and can be thought of as very similar to what we as woodturners are concerned with. .......

I've never been much interested in hockey either, but the sport has a very dedicated following of fans.

Since I gave up TV watching altogether, I am unable to follow any sports, but I did love watching football.......

ooc

Note: Below are a couple random examples of bowls that I probably would have used the hockey helmet, if I had one. This is not limited to just the roughing stage, but final finish work, as well. For those who believe that observation of the tool progress and unrestricted body movement have no benefits to a woodturner......well, they are certainly entitled to their opinion......and, so am I!....

ooc

 

[john lucas]

better helmut

Oddie I've been looking also. I'm in Atlanta visiting this week so I hit a few stores. My problem is two fold. heat in the summer and staying protected. The Hockey and football helmuts seem like they would be hot in the Tennessee Summer. The Lacross helmuts lookg good, light weight with padding and a good wire cage but you would need to wear safety glasses at a minimum and I'd kind of like to keep the dust and chips out of my mouth and nose which is at least part of why I wear a faceshield when I do.
Mike Gibson posted a photo of a Fencing mask. He showed me his last night. it's good a solid and has a surpisingly good view but seemed a little heavy to me. I didn't check on the price of these things but suspect they are quite high.
Staying out of the line of fire is my main line of defense but in the sake of good form sometimes you simply have to get parallel to the bowl to really see the shave imerge as you turn. There in lies my search for a good comfortable, safe faceshield/helmut.
The riot helmut if price was not a problem would seem like a good option. They are designed to hits from rocks, and other hand held weapons icluding bats and batons so I think they would deflect a piece of wood and at the very worst at least reduce the inujies from flying wood.
I tried my cage on my powermatic. useless. Wood shaving hang up in it and you can't see what your doing. You spend more time pulling the shavings out than turning. If it was plastic the dust and water from green turnings would cover it and you couldn't see either so that's not an option.

 

[Matthew Clarke]

A Different Suggestion

Hi Odie,

First of all, thanks for beginning this thread. Recently, I attended a presentation by Stuart Batty. One of the things that he mentioned was that when he roughs out a bowl blank, he teaches his students to turn it at 900 rpm or less, and between centers. He explained that, at that speed, when something goes wrong, the wood tends to drop rather than sail across the shop. I don't have any access to research to back up that claim, but I remember that he spent some time talking about how he learned that (I guess I my mind was 'drifting'). I did read Lynn Yamaguchee's blog and noted that she mentioned that she was turning at a high speed. Frankly, I think that roughing a bowl at 900 rpm or less is just common sense. Possibly, the low inertial speed imparted by it rpm, the solidity of the blank, and the between centers grip act to prevent what happened to Lynn. I would further add that it is a good idea to fill in or carve out all of those cracks very early on if you want to use them as a point of contrast.

Finally, I want to add a counter experience. Several years ago, I was finish turning the foot of a bowl that was mounted to my lathe using the OneWay Jumbo Jaws. The speed was between 700 and 850 rpm. I was touching up the joint between the foot and the bottom of the bowl when it just exploded. A piece hit my face protection in the position that would have been right between the eyes. I walked away from that uninjured, just a bit shaken up. I have told that story to my students many times and prayed a 'thank you' for having had the protection on at the time. My presumption has always been that the problem was that the joint was too thin and that the pressure of the rubber bungs on the rim acted to push the wood out rather than just let it fall. So, IMHO maybe if you keep the revolutions at 900 and below, and stand out of 'the line of fire', a face mask will be more than enough protection. Just a thought.

Again, thanks for raising the issue.

Matt

 

[Scott Austin]

Hi all.


I just thought I would put in my 2 cents on this. I think you are underestimating the strength of your basic face shields. I have always worked in construction or some kind of heavy industry. I will tell you a couple of stories of just how tough a quality faceshield really is.

Story #1.

Several years ago we were working at ground level installing some pumps and above us there was work going on at 70 feet above and every 10 feet in between. There were iron workers, plumbers, electricians, millwrights, and welders working everywhere. A gentleman working close to me had been using a grinder and was wearing a faceshield. Someone about 50 feet above dropped a 24" pipe wrench. They yelled "look out" from above and the man on the ground looked straight up. That roughly ten pound pipe wrench hit him right square in the face. His face did get bruised up pretty bad and he ended up with a broken nose. But it would have. Been much worse without that face shield.

Story # 2.

I was a mechanic in an iron foundry and we had machines called 106 grinders. They had 24 hp motors, and a 24" x 3" grinding wheel that turned 3600 rpm. They were made to grind a lot of material off of those castings in a hurry. I saw one of those grinding stones fly apart once. The guy got 17 stitches in his arm, but the faceshield that did take a hit hard enough to break the headband kept his face from getting hurt.

The moral of those 2 stories is that a good quality face shield will take one hell of a hit and it might hurt and bruise a bit, but it will keep from death or really serious injury. Just something for you to think on before you worry about going and spending a bunch of money on a super helmet.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Several years ago, I was finish turning the foot of a bowl that was mounted to my lathe using the OneWay Jumbo Jaws. The speed was between 700 and 850 rpm. I was touching up the joint between the foot and the bottom of the bowl when it just exploded.

My Teknatool Cole jaws have 600 max rpm stamped on them. I never trusted them on their own, so I kept the live center engaged. Habit from the old jam chuck days made me keep a bit of pressure on the bottom to expand the top against the buttons.

Can't find the original manual, but it seems the first Nova chucks were listed for 600 max, regardless the jaws. Now, with the 3000 and 1624, I notice they are rated for 680, rather than 600. Coincidence?

 

[Fred Belknap]

My Teknatool Cole jaws have 600 max rpm stamped on them. I never trusted them on their own, so I kept the live center engaged. Habit from the old jam chuck days made me keep a bit of pressure on the bottom to expand the top against the buttons.

Can't find the original manual, but it seems the first Nova chucks were listed for 600 max, regardless the jaws. Now, with the 3000 and 1624, I notice they are rated for 680, rather than 600. Coincidence?

I checked the manual for the Talon Jumbo jaws and they say under 1250 rpm for small bowls, under 900 rpm for large bowls and bowl 12" or larger less. That kind of defines the a large or small bowl.

 

[Steve Worcester]

What we need is a hockey helmet with a safety shield. Wearing prescription glasses, I hate wearing safety glasses.

As for staying out of the line of fire, one of the fundamental basics of woodturning is to stand right over your cut, standing away means you aren't seeing what is happening over the gouge, which is probably as dangerous.

 

[Odie]

Oddie I've been looking also. I'm in Atlanta visiting this week so I hit a few stores. My problem is two fold. heat in the summer and staying protected. The Hockey and football helmuts seem like they would be hot in the Tennessee Summer. The Lacross helmuts lookg good, light weight with padding and a good wire cage but you would need to wear safety glasses at a minimum and I'd kind of like to keep the dust and chips out of my mouth and nose which is at least part of why I wear a faceshield when I do.
Mike Gibson posted a photo of a Fencing mask. He showed me his last night. it's good a solid and has a surpisingly good view but seemed a little heavy to me. I didn't check on the price of these things but suspect they are quite high.
Staying out of the line of fire is my main line of defense but in the sake of good form sometimes you simply have to get parallel to the bowl to really see the shave imerge as you turn. There in lies my search for a good comfortable, safe faceshield/helmut.
The riot helmut if price was not a problem would seem like a good option. They are designed to hits from rocks, and other hand held weapons icluding bats and batons so I think they would deflect a piece of wood and at the very worst at least reduce the inujies from flying wood.
I tried my cage on my powermatic. useless. Wood shaving hang up in it and you can't see what your doing. You spend more time pulling the shavings out than turning. If it was plastic the dust and water from green turnings would cover it and you couldn't see either so that's not an option.

Hiya John......

Much of your thinking is similar to mine. Yes, if possible, staying out of the way is the first option........ As others have confirmed, there are times where all of us seem to stray from the optimum, whether it is purely accidental, or for some perceived turning advantage.

I never thought of a fencing helmet.......that's another option that seems like it ought to work pretty good. I looked at some Lacrosse helmets online, and if the timing were right, I'd have gotten one of those......they should do the job as well as a hockey helmet would. There are Cricket helmets, too.......might also work.

No matter what kind of helmet is purchased, there is a possibility that a replacement shield for a standard face shield could be adapted for use, attached to the front of the metal face guard of the helmet. Possibly, by using some electrical wire ties, and punching a couple of holes in the shield, it could be done........? This is something I'm already planning to try.......

I had this Lacrosse helmet on my "eBay watch list" and planned to bid on it.....but, the other hockey helmet was a done deal first. I see the auction expired without any bids at all.......could have been purchased for $25, which included the shipping. If this person re-lists it, it might suit you:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sport-helme...1C+QWtqBlFZnpgOQHuo7GKU=&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

There looks to be quite a few pretty good deals on eBay for Lacrosse, ice hockey, Cricket, and football helmets..... if you search around a bit.......

good luck......

ooc

 

[Odie]

Hi Odie,

First of all, thanks for beginning this thread. Recently, I attended a presentation by Stuart Batty. One of the things that he mentioned was that when he roughs out a bowl blank, he teaches his students to turn it at 900 rpm or less, and between centers. He explained that, at that speed, when something goes wrong, the wood tends to drop rather than sail across the shop. I don't have any access to research to back up that claim, but I remember that he spent some time talking about how he learned that (I guess I my mind was 'drifting'). I did read Lynn Yamaguchee's blog and noted that she mentioned that she was turning at a high speed. Frankly, I think that roughing a bowl at 900 rpm or less is just common sense. Possibly, the low inertial speed imparted by it rpm, the solidity of the blank, and the between centers grip act to prevent what happened to Lynn. I would further add that it is a good idea to fill in or carve out all of those cracks very early on if you want to use them as a point of contrast.

Finally, I want to add a counter experience. Several years ago, I was finish turning the foot of a bowl that was mounted to my lathe using the OneWay Jumbo Jaws. The speed was between 700 and 850 rpm. I was touching up the joint between the foot and the bottom of the bowl when it just exploded. A piece hit my face protection in the position that would have been right between the eyes. I walked away from that uninjured, just a bit shaken up. I have told that story to my students many times and prayed a 'thank you' for having had the protection on at the time. My presumption has always been that the problem was that the joint was too thin and that the pressure of the rubber bungs on the rim acted to push the wood out rather than just let it fall. So, IMHO maybe if you keep the revolutions at 900 and below, and stand out of 'the line of fire', a face mask will be more than enough protection. Just a thought.

Again, thanks for raising the issue.

Matt

Hello, and you are certainly welcome Matt........

Your post reminded me of something I've done in the past. There have been times where I've purposely over-speeded a turning, simply for testing purposes. My lathe controls are mounted at the tailstock end of the full length bedways, so it's easy to do this and stay well out of the line of fire. Just how much benefit there is to this, realistically, is up to speculation.....but, it does tend to boost my confidence level for turning the piece at a slower speed.

I used to have the Nova Cole jaws that MM mentioned, and I believe he is correct that the maximum suggested rpm was 600rpm on those. I now have two sets of Oneway jaws for turning the bottoms of bowls......Mega Jumbo Jaws and Jumbo Jaws. Both of these jaw sets are marked 1000rpm max.

There are multiple factors that would require one to vary the rpm.......bowl weight, how well the wedge shaped rubber grippers fit the shape of the bowl (both expand and contract mode), species, thinness/thickness of the bowl, shape, diameter, noted defects, etc,etc,etc....... I have gone as fast as 1200rpm without problem. This is not to say that every object that can be held by the Oneway Jumbo Jaws can be turned that fast, but it does suggest that the suggested rpm is exactly that.....a suggestion.....and, that suggestion is probably based on the belief that many of the newer turners who use these jaws, should be bound by a more stringent set of rules than does someone who has accumulated more experience with them.......

ooc

 

[Ian Robertson]

I have been following this with a bit of interest.

Most of my work is big spindle work and it is impossible to stand out of the way. I agree with Steve that in most cases when doing the outside of a bowl that you have to almost stand in front as you have little tool control with your arms outstretched.

Another important thing is that a face shield is made to absorb energy by flexing with the blow and finally head bands breaking away much like the crumble zones in cars.

My biggest worry if you use a helmet like a hockey or baseball mask is that the force is transmitted to your head and neck.

I don't think it would do them much good either.

 

[John Lawson]

I find I tend to get my face too close to my work. Not as dangerous as it sounds, since I only turn small spindles, but I'm going to take a page from Cindy Drozda's book and get single-vision glasses with a focal length such that I can stand up straight and still see the workpiece. I'll probably get them made into prescription safety glasses. I have been resisting going to trifocals for years, but it may finally be time to start juggling multiple pairs of glasses.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I find I tend to get my face too close to my work. Not as dangerous as it sounds, since I only turn small spindles, but I'm going to take a page from Cindy Drozda's book and get single-vision glasses with a focal length such that I can stand up straight and still see the workpiece. I'll probably get them made into prescription safety glasses. I have been resisting going to trifocals for years, but it may finally be time to start juggling multiple pairs of glasses.

Trifocals aren't bad as long as you don't go for the current style of very narrow glasses that leave little room for each range. The latest glasses that I got this year are "old guy" style and allow each of the windows to have a comfortable height. I believe that I recall that it is 8 mm for the mid and near vision. I tried to confirm this measurement, but ran into a fundamental problem -- with glasses and ruler in hand, I couldn't see either of them well enough to determine anything.

 

[Odie]

I find I tend to get my face too close to my work. Not as dangerous as it sounds, since I only turn small spindles, but I'm going to take a page from Cindy Drozda's book and get single-vision glasses with a focal length such that I can stand up straight and still see the workpiece. I'll probably get them made into prescription safety glasses. I have been resisting going to trifocals for years, but it may finally be time to start juggling multiple pairs of glasses.

John........

Get the tri-focals. I've been using them for about ten years, and it only took a short time before I was switching between lenses completely subconsciously. I have single focal length lens goggles for motorcycle riding, and I'm going to spend the extra money and get multiple lenses next time.

-------------------------------------------------

I did a little modification to the hockey helmet this evening.

....Cut away some padding so glasses fit the sides better.
....Eliminated 2nd under chin strap......don't need it.
....Eliminated side ear protectors......don't need them.
....Repositioned cage straps.
....Tilted cage outward slightly, so that Resp-o-rator fits inside. I was afraid this might not be very easy a task, but as luck would have it, it was very easy to do. Padded chin strap still fits like it should.

I will be adding a clear plastic lens to the front shortly........

I think this contraption looks ridiculous and ugly, but it looks like it just might work beautifully!

ooc

 

[Ian Robertson]

Interesting respirator. I have never seen that type before.

Could you enlighten me please?

 

[Odie]

Interesting respirator. I have never seen that type before.

Could you enlighten me please?

Hi Ian......

Here's a link:

http://www.resp-o-rator.com/ror/

There is a YouTube demonstration link at the bottom.......

We had a discussion thread some time back.....you could probably locate it with a search......but, I have to go to bed right now......good luck.

ooc

 

[Ian Robertson]

Thanks for that.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Trifocals aren't bad as long as you don't go for the current style of very narrow glasses that leave little room for each range.

Translation, don't take your daughter with you when you pick out your frames. You're allowed to choose your own fashion. Wives may cluck, but don't mock.

The center works fine for me at both at the lathe and the computer, but it is a liability working where depth perception is vital. Seems the different diopters fool the brain when one eye assesses through one magnification, the second, another.

If you do work requiring exquisite detail, the best I've found is one of those articulated arm magnifiers, though with my habit of working above center on convex areas, the tool is pushing the work away and/or down as it cuts, which makes the tool the first line of defense. I never work above 680, either, though some crank to 2-3K. Prevention and protection in slower rotation. Better tool control possible, but better presentation demanded. The wood tells you when you've got it right.

With bowls remaining between centers for me until they're virtually complete, I suppose I could say they're the equivalent of heavy spindles, but I'm normally working at right angles to the axis of rotation rather than along it on bowls, which makes keeping my distance easy.

 

[Jim Livingston]

I find I tend to get my face too close to my work. Not as dangerous as it sounds, since I only turn small spindles, but I'm going to take a page from Cindy Drozda's book and get single-vision glasses with a focal length such that I can stand up straight and still see the workpiece. I'll probably get them made into prescription safety glasses. I have been resisting going to trifocals for years, but it may finally be time to start juggling multiple pairs of glasses.

Since the conversation has evolved into eyewear let me add some food for thought.

Depending on your Rx needs - another solution that I find works well for many people is to have a pair of bifocals made with the "distance" lens set at your intermediate distance (or working distance) and the bifocal for near. It'll make things a little fuzzy beyond 6 or 8 feet but it works well in close which is where we spend most of our time. Works well at the table saw and band saw also! I wear what is called an occupational double bifocal (one up top and one down below) these come in a multitude of designs but are mostly only available in CR-39 (which is good but not the best). Everybody's needs differ and there are a lot of options available, any Optician worth his salt can work with you to come up with what is best for you!

The best material (DO NOT GET GLASS) for the lens is a product called "Trivex" it has impact resistance =/> than Polycarbnate and is much more durable. It's best to have the lenses set in a safety frame that is marked Z87.1. These frames are designed to prevent the lens from being pushed out the back of the frame in the event of impact, also they are made of materials that will bend and not break, thus preventing puncture wounds. And yes get a large frame, in the event of impact a small frame can be forced back into the orbital cavity and rupture the eye! Need I say more?

 

[John Lawson]

Jim,

Thanks for the detail info. I will have it in hand when I go to the optician. Can you still get case-hardened glass lenses?

Bill, Odie,

My problem when it comes to trifocals is that I'm still working as an IT manager. with a row of three 19" monitors on my desk. I need a lens area that allows me to focus on my monitors (at 22" from my eyes) without have to constantly adjust my head position.

My wife regularly complains about my extremely large frames ("It's not the 70's anymore!"). I nod and say "Yes, dear" and will choose what I want when the time comes.

 

[Alan Trout]

I wore regular bi-focal's for my safety glasses for a couple of years. When I finally needed more magnification my Optometrist ask if I want to try a progressive lens. I did it in my everyday glasses first. I love them so much I had my safety glasses re-made with progressive lenses. For me there was no adjustment I put them on and they just worked great. I have herd some folks have trouble adjusting to them. However it might depend on what affliction you have with your eyes. I am basically farsighted my correction is all positive prescription, and my distant prescription is pretty light. As I need more magnification just look a little farther down the lens.

I had a friend hear in San Antonio that was very close to loosing his life from a bowl that came off the lathe and hit him in the head. He went through 14 hours of reconstructive surgery. I was able to see his copies of the CT scan and his face and jaw looked like a 1000 piece puzzle. He has almost lost his vision in one eye as well and it still is not working right.

The tenon on the bowl was not made properly. The tenon was in a bark inclusion and there was a gap at the inclusion. When he cracked down on his large Vicmarc 150 chuck it pulled the bowl and it started to crack at the inclusion. The bowl broke in half as it was spinning and half hit him in the head and the other half went all the way across the shop. It knocked him unconscious He came to on the floor about 15 min later in a pool of blood and could not see. He tried to call EMS on his cell phone but they could not find his address. The shop is in a metal building and they could not ping his phone. He crawled out to the parking lot where they were able ping the phone and found him laying in the parking lot.

What I have seen in most of these cases is that there are generally many bad decisions, distractions, or lack of understanding involved in these accidents. I as an example have found most times I have injured myself have been late at night when I am fatigued. Just the other night I got my finger caught between a jaw slide and the tool rest. It took a large chunk out of the end of my finger. It was about midnight and I was tired. Knowing your limits is very important. My friend for example had very little experience with large pieces, he is primarily a pen turner and I really think he was not familiar with best chucking practices. It nearly cost his life.

Education, head protection, and good judgement will be the best preventative to these fatal and nearly fatal accidents.

Alan

 

[Bill Weaver]

Another direction some may want to try, since a helment might be to much is a softball catchers mask. This mask has a finer set of bars as the hockey helment does. It also has a band on the outer sides so that a plastic face sheild could be modified to fit over the mask area. In thinking about the modification the face shield could be pop riveted or epoxyed to the frame.

Advantages it would be cooler in summer heat you can wear glasses under them you can use hearing protection with and would be lighter feeling to the head.