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Sanding...

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Hello All,

Well, I'm kinda having a bit of trouble with sanding these days. sometime when I finish a pen, or bottle stopper, I can still see lines in it. I wonder if these are from the tools or starting with too course of grit.

so what is the most common grit to start with and workl towards fine. I understand that people will have their preferences of starting grip, but is there a rule of thumb?

Really thinking about it, the marks can be from a too course of grit paper, and I'm not sure what it is listed at. hard to read on the back.

Thanks fopr any advice.

Later,

Ray K.
 
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Ray,
I usually start out at 320, 220 if I goof ,on my pen and bottle stoppers., but I turn most of them with a skew. I'm assuming you're asking about turning wood and not acrylic. Are you stopping the lathe and sanding with the grain between each grit ? If not stop the lathe and give the blank a couple swipes with the grain to help eliminate the round scratches.
Any more questions feel free to ask.
 
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I'm not sure what it is listed at. hard to read on the back.

Before cutting sheets to manageable size, write the grit number all over the back of the paper; otherwise, grit numbers may be lost after cutting. If the original printing is hard to read, use the number(s) on the package.

Joe
 
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sandpaper ID

I cut rolls of sandpaper into 6 inchx1" strips and label on back . But end up tearing off the number sometimes. Then wondering what grit it is. I saw Jimmy Clewes at the Traverse City Demo in May put sand paper to his lips. We asked him what he was doing. Telling the grits apart. I tried it. It DOES help to distinguish them. I wondered what God made lips for. Now I know;) Gretch
 
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Ray,
Apparently sanding seems to rub everyone the wrong way…( don’t shoot…don’t shoot…) I believe it was Mike Mahoney who said “use sandpaper as if someone else bought itâ€, as in don’t try to use every last grit out of it, throw out used up stuff. That helped me. I also made up a sanding station, OK, that sounds good but its just a cardboard box w/dividers and gallon Ziploc bags for each grit. Each grit bag has a different color indelible marker in it (most of mine are sharpies) when I cut off a piece, it gets a swipe. The grit dividers are numbered w/the corresponding color, as are the bags, I also ended up with bags in bags, (used stuff that I still can’t throw out). Now I know 80 is black, 120 is red, 220 is blue and on and on…If you try this and you wet sand, make sure the solvent (water, oil, etc) doesn’t react w/your markers.
Sometimes wiping on alcohol, lacquer thinner or even water can show areas that need more attention. I have also found that it’s easier to sand out tool marks then tear out, so, I go for the “one last cutâ€. Sometimes that “one last cut†negates the need for sandpaper, then I use a broom and dustpan…

cc

Ps, You are not alone…
 
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Sometimes that “one last cut†negates the need for sandpaper, then I use a broom and dustpan…

Yep, been there. Done that. The imagery is still funny though. Glad I'm not the only one who does this.

While we're talking about sandpaper, can someone tell me why the same grit number paper from different manufacturers often sands drastically different?

I was at a shop demo last month and he had a 220 grit (I wish I knew the vendor) that was aggressive but left a smooth finish. Other 220 grits that I know of don't do much more than burnish wood. I've had 100 grit papers that left marks on the wood but didn't remove anything. It was almost like the grit was rounded over and not cutting at all.

Then there's my favorite 3M paper in 400+ grit range. It just slick things up real nice, but the trick is finding a really good 220 to get me there.

If I need to start a separate thread for this topic, I'll do that too.

As always, your thoughts are much appreciated.
 
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and don't forget to wipe off between grits with tack cloth. This will remove bits of sandpaper stuck on the wood and keep you from resanding with finer grit/bigger chunks mix.

Dietrich
 
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One of the reasons different manufacturers papers of the same grit will cut differently could be in the type of abrasive particle they are using. Was the great cutting sandpaper one of the newer coated varities?
 
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Ray,

Regardless of what grit you start at there's no reason to see scratches when finished.

Start at which ever grit is required, use that grit to remove any tool marks and imperfections. Move to the next grit and sand until you remove the scratches from the previous grit. Remember sandpaper leaves scratches, it's an abrasive and it scratches the wood, each grit remove that left by the previous. Don't skip a grit and Clifton is absolutely right in his Mike Mahoney quote "Use it like someone else paid for it". I buy rolls in bulk from Klingspore. Check out there website and look at the bargain boxes. Rolls in 1 1/2" and 2" width are wonderful used in a shoeshine rag fashion on your turnings. Those that mentioned wiping off the turning between grits and using a liquid to reveal scratches are spot on. Finally, when I cut pieces from the rolls I make sure that the grit marking is on the back, if not I write it on there in ink and then lay the various abrasives out in order on the bench next to my lathe.

Finally be thorough, if you go through the grits and see scratches that means you have to go waaaaay back beyond the grit that left those scratches and go through it again.

Mike
 
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I just walked in from sanding bottle stoppers. I start with 80 grit regardless of the finish or wood or anything. I turn stoppers and I sand stoppers, not all at the same time meaning I turn a pile of them and then sand them all. I have a little tray with dividers in it that holds diff grits of tiny strips (80, 120, 18, 220, 320,400,600,800, 1000, 1500, 2000). I just go through each grit every single time and throw each strip away as I go. When I run out of a grit, I grab a sheet of paper and cut enough to fill up the tray again. This way I let the tray keep track of the grits for me and don't have to think too much. Once in a while I skip 80 grit but not usually. Think of sanding as just as important as turning. Sandpaper is a cutting tool... it removes wood. By starting at a more coarse grit you may think your going to spend too much time sanding but starting at a finer grit than you should makes you sand more with that grit when you could have simply started more coarse. By the time you get up to the finer grits you will be removing smaller and smaller scratches. Also- I have bottle of water that I use to mist the wood between grits (not all grits but def before the final grit). This helps a lot!! BUT- be sure to use distilled water or you run risk of chemical reactions with the wood that leave stains. Distilled water is readily availabe at the supermarket in gallons. I spend a lot of time finishing and it def pays off. I sell a lot of stuff simply because people like the feel of how smooth it is.
 
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Well, I'm kinda having a bit of trouble with sanding these days. sometime when I finish a pen, or bottle stopper, I can still see lines in it. I wonder if these are from the tools or starting with too course of grit.
...
Really thinking about it, the marks can be from a too course of grit paper, and I'm not sure what it is listed at. hard to read on the back.
...
Ray K.

My suggestion for you to consider is to make sure you are using a high quality sand paper - not the garden variety Vermont American (or whatever bulk brand) from the local hardware store. Not all sand paper is created equally. The manufacturers who supply to the commercial cabinet, boat and auto finishing trades take extra care to eliminate as much non-grade particles as possible from the stated grade. There is always some bit of variance in the grit size, but the cheaper papers can certainly contain a stray 80 grit particle on a 220 paper.

The majority of the papers and other sanding products I buy are from Mirka. Don't substitute another brand within your grit range. In other words, don't have Mirka 80, 120, 150, 3M 180, then back to Mirka 220. It could work out OK, but the manufacturers have the increasingly finer grits set up on their own machinery and it may not jibe with another maker's. You can change brands as long as you then continue with the second brand onward.

I also make a practice of keeping all my papers separated as much as possible. I don't let a sheet of 120 mingle among the 220s for example - grit falls off and I don't want it ending up on a finer graded paper. My papers are stored with the finer grit above a coarser one. By the same token, if a sanding sheet I'm using (or, for that matter, any finishing item) falls to the floor it gets thrown away. Too much potential to pick up finish marring dirt and grit to risk it. (Friends and family don't call me AR for nothing!)

Jus' my 2¢ to add to the others' comments.
 
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While we're talking about sandpaper, can someone tell me why the same grit number paper from different manufacturers often sands drastically different?


Keep in mind there are several different grading systems in use. You may be looking at a 220 from one maker and a 220P from another; they are NOT the same thing!

I believe it's 3M that has begun to seriously challenge the traditional grading within the US with a standardized micron system. For example, 220 grit is not the same from maker to maker, but 30 micron is 30 micron the world around.
 
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Thanks for all the advise, I'll be sure to look for better brand and be consistant with brand type.
So here is another question. how long do I need to sand for? I've seen demos and video and seems like these guys are spending only a 30 - 60 sec. of each grit and move on the the other and come out with a fabulous finish.

I imagine pressure is also a key to not burnish the wood.

Thanks again. here is a Stopper I just finished that got me to thinking. Using bubinga wood.

GDStopper3.jpg


GDStopper.jpg




Later,
Ray K.
 
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Ray,
Seemed to me like Pete (Post #11) covered it best. Many of us non-skew experts start with 80 most of the time, whether we need it or not. And 75-80% of your total sanding time is done with 80, 100, and 120 to remove tool marks (where you didn't turn it smooth and level) and end grain ugliness. When the surface is clean and level at 120 or so, then only a few quick passes with each next grade are necessary.
 

Steve Worcester

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Keep in mind there are several different grading systems in use. You may be looking at a 220 from one maker and a 220P from another; they are NOT the same thing!

I believe it's 3M that has begun to seriously challenge the traditional grading within the US with a standardized micron system. For example, 220 grit is not the same from maker to maker, but 30 micron is 30 micron the world around.

While 3M doesn't use the micron system for all of their products the point is well noted.
The "US" uses the ANSI system and Europe uses FEPA or just the P grit rating. To help out, I have a chart available to all on my website
http://www.turningwood.com/images/sandpaper/grit%20comparison%20chart.pdf
 
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One thing here that I haven't seen mentioned is speed. I have been using the blue discs from ASAP/VincesWoodNWonders. They are film backed, and I am sold on film backed abrasives, which at present don't seem to be available as sheet stock or shop rolls. The grit is the most consistant of any abrasive that I have ever used. In chatting with Vince about the hook part of the sanding pads heating up, he told me to try sanding at 600 rpm on my power sander for the coarser grits, and slower on the finer grits. Since trying that, I found out that I get as good or better stock removal at slower speeds. You avoid much of the heat build up, and your paper does last a bit longer. I now have a piece of cork under the trigger of my sander to keep me from sanding too fast. I use the same principal on sanding spindles, I turn the speed down.
robo hippy
 
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The answers to all the questions and observations here are in Russ Fairfield's "Finishing Secrets" video. I watch it a LOT.

Russ says:

Sandpaper is a tool.
You want sanpaper to cut (finer grit, finer cut).

Keep your sandpaper clean and sharp, just like you do your tools. Use the rubber erase (I rub it on my jeans) to get the dust build up cleaned out.

(*been said already) Buy all your sandpaper from the same place, one company's 220 grit might be another's 320 or even 400 grit. ( I only buy from our moderator ;) )

The more you sand, the more you have to sand.

Slow speed = you're sanding, high speed = your burnishing (even burning). If your fingers get hot, you're burning the wood, slow the speed.

Never skip grits.

Now from Nick Cook, this great tip if you're only using 3 grits (which Nick does on 90% of his work; I do, too). Rip 120 grit into 4" squares and fold, rip 240 grit into 3" strips 4" long and rip 320 (or 400) into 2" strips 4" long. All these sizes are optional (did I really have to say that?!?!). It works great because the size instantly tells you what grit the paper is..........if you remember what grit you cut up into what size; this might take a few days!

Owen, you really throw away a piece of sanpaper that's fallen on the floor? Wow. So I guess you don't want to hear that I dig through the chips to find my sandpaper, right?
 
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Owen, you really throw away a piece of sanpaper that's fallen on the floor? Wow. So I guess you don't want to hear that I dig through the chips to find my sandpaper, right?

I really do, Ruth - especially if it's after 220. I hate having to drop back down to the 1xx grits to get rid of a scratch that shows up when I'm up in the 320-4000 range. (I use Mirka Abralon pads from 500-4000.)

Long time no talk Ruth. I see you've moved near my old area when I was in high school (Chambersburg).
 

Steve Worcester

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... I hate having to drop back down to the 1xx grits to get rid of a scratch that shows up when I'm up in the 320-4000 range. (I use Mirka Abralon pads from 500-4000.)

Abralon works great for detecting scratches (if you don't know already).

Sand to 240 or so and hit it with a 360 or 500 Abralon and it will highlight any horrid scratches that remain
 
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How many discs per bowl?

Owen- couldn't you just hit it with the air hose to blow off any particles the paper might have picked up? That is what I do anyway. I only sand to 400 on bowls, occasionally 600 though. I go to 2000 on the small stuff like bottle stoppers but I still just blow off the paper with an air hose when its contaminated.
I use the discs from Vince too (appologies to our moderator, I was not aware of your sanding supplies!) and really like them a lot but cannot compare them to anything else. These are all that I have ever used. Vince is pretty passionate about his products and more than willing to discuss them and the benefits of the differences. I have been going through one disc of each grit per bowl, sanding both the inside and outside. I use 80,120,180,220,320,400. Does this make sense to anyone? Should I get more life out of a disc or should I be using 2 discs per bowl? Assume I get a pretty good finish cut with very little tearout but do have some small ridges to sand out. I sand slow and generate very little heat. Just wondering what the typical routine is... one disc per grit per bowl or more?
 

odie

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Owen- couldn't you just hit it with the air hose to blow off any particles the paper might have picked up? That is what I do anyway. I only sand to 400 on bowls, occasionally 600 though. I go to 2000 on the small stuff like bottle stoppers but I still just blow off the paper with an air hose when its contaminated.
I use the discs from Vince too (appologies to our moderator, I was not aware of your sanding supplies!) and really like them a lot but cannot compare them to anything else. These are all that I have ever used. Vince is pretty passionate about his products and more than willing to discuss them and the benefits of the differences. I have been going through one disc of each grit per bowl, sanding both the inside and outside. I use 80,120,180,220,320,400. Does this make sense to anyone? Should I get more life out of a disc or should I be using 2 discs per bowl? Assume I get a pretty good finish cut with very little tearout but do have some small ridges to sand out. I sand slow and generate very little heat. Just wondering what the typical routine is... one disc per grit per bowl or more?


Yep, sure you can, Pete......

I use air to remove the build-up on sandpaper and discs, too! It's really the best way to do it quickly and cleanly. I bought one of those mountable rubber disc cleaners once, still have it.....they don't do nearly as good a job as a good 'ol shot of compressed air!

As far as sequence of discs, and how many to use........well, that's a tricky subject! Everybody has got their own way of doing things.....including me. Each bowl is different, as well. As a general rule, I start disc sanding around 80 or 100 grit, but occasionally need to go all the way down to 60gt. When I go that low, I generally don't need to go over the entire surface with it......only specific areas that have some tear out. On occasion, I start at 150gt, but the rule of thumb is in the 100gt range. The finest grit disc I use is 220, and then use only sandpapers above that.

Are you talking about using 1-2 discs, per grit, per bowl? That sounds like you're going through a lot of discs to me. I generally get 2-3 bowls out of a single disc! If you start sanding at the correct grit for the circumstances your bowl presents, you shouldn't have to sand for very long with any particular disc......hence, they last longer.

If it's a small bowl, I can start sanding at speeds as high as 1200rpm, but for most work, 650 and 370 works best. (Obviously, I don't have a variable speed lathe.....I'm still changing belts, but am used to it!)

Also, my angle head Sioux sander is the faster 0-2500rpm model.....I wouldn't trade it for the slower one. There are times when you want to get all the aggressiveness out of your sanding you can get!.....When you don't, just learn to use that variable speed lever! If you keep the disc moving over the surface, you can get pretty aggressive with the coarser grits......it's the finer grits you need to be watchful about.

....odie
 
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Odie- yeah, i am talking per bowl. Right now, I am using a single disc per bowl (sanding inside out outside the bowl with one disc). I have the Milwaukee version of the sioux drill, the slower one. I guess my thinking was that when I used sandpaper by hand, I used probably 3-4 times as much abrasive as I do with the disc in terms of surface area. I would cut a strip, use it and toss it. So, I thought maybe using a single disc for every grit for a single bowl was pretty good use of the abrasive. In terms of cost, I use 6 total discs per bowl, starting at 80 and going to 400 grit. For Vince's 2.375" discs, the total cost is $1.20 per bowl. That's pretty good, I think. I have tried to get more life out of the discs a cpl times and they def cut some wood but it's just not as nice... it takes longer and that makes me what to speed it up or push harder, leading to heat which is bad for the actual disc holder and the interface pads I have and for the bowl and disc of course. I am new to power sanding though and might be thinking too much about it. I have been trying really hard to get my sanding dialed in since spending the coin on the power sanding gear though and have played around with speed and pressure, soft pads, firm pads, wet, dry.... there are a ton of variables!!
 
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