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Robust American Beauty vs Powermatic 3520c.......pros and cons

odie

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OK I'm considering a purchase of a new lathe in the very immediate future, and at this point, the two I'm considering is the American Beauty, and the 3520c. I'll have to admit that my budget is not unlimited......money is tight......so, the Powermatic has a definite edge cost-wise. (It's also on sale for $4050 right now.....and, that's a plus.)

I want those of you who own the fabulous American Beauty to try and convince me of it's advantages......Why would you buy the AB again, and how does it warrant the $7000 price tag over what I can get with the 3520c for $4000? (I seldom have any wood available to me that is over 20" diameter......and, my purpose is to sell my work. Very large bowls are difficult to sell, as some of you know......but, they definitely are impressive!)

Likewise for you Powermatic 3520c owners......tell me why your lathe is top notch.....sing it's praises, please!

The lathe I've been using since 1992 is an Australian Woodfast M908, 16" swing.......overall, I like this lathe a lot.....but, it's time to upgrade, and the opportunity is here, and now! All my accessories are #2 Morse Taper, 1 1/4 x 8 tpi spindle threads.....easy conversion. Some tool rests might be a little short.....don't know for sure, but everything is 1" dia post.

I do have a couple quick questions about the 3520c:

Is the banjo lock reversible?

How about the tool post lock lever.....is that reversible?

Does the spindle lock lock up the spindle solid.....or, is there play? The reason I ask, is I use this feature for some hand sanding, and I'd rather have a solid lock-up.

You are welcome to sing the praises of other lathes here......but, I'll let you know in advance that it will be pretty darn tough to make me change my mind on these two! :D

Probably more questions to come......and, thanks for any insights, comments, whatever you have to offer in this thread.

-----odie-----
 

odie

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No matter which lathe......I'll be getting the tailstock swing away attachment.......;)

I do like the "L" shaped banjo over the straight AB banjo........the Woodfast also has the "L" shaped banjo, and I find it advantageous for reaching around to the back side of a bowl for better placement of the tool rest. Anyone care to comment about that?

-----odie-----
 
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john lucas

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I own the 3520A and have turned on several Robust machines. I love the Robust. Everything just works a little bit better a d they have the best swing away tailstock in the business. That being said the 3520C is definitely a step up from mine. It's all little things but they add up. The tool rest lock is better, the quill feed is an Acme thread. Much faster and you will never wear out those threads. In reality it's like the difference between a Ford and a BMW. Both get you there but the it's a little more fun in the Beemer.
 
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I have wondered when you were going to up grade Odie--- you make such beautiful stuff. I had that same model Woodfast and it was a good machine. I'll bet that when you move up to the Robust you will wonder why you waited so long.

The Robust is made in Barneveld Wisconsin with North American parts, most of which are from the Barneveld area, and they use American Baldor motors.
The Robust has stainless steel bed ways.
The Robust has an excellent stand that is uniquely adjustable on all four legs.
The Robust gas assist swing-away tail stock is superior to any other-- easy to use, accurate, and versatile. You swing it out of the way and it is replaced by a section of stainless bed way that will accommodate your tool rest banjo.
The Robust has an optional 3hp motor.
Everything about the Robust is ergonomically comfortable, flexible, and easy to use.
Where else can you find a seven year warranty?
 
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Odie, I had the Powermatic 3520c for a brief period before getting my AB.

Is the banjo lock reversible? Yes

How about the tool post lock lever.....is that reversible? Also reversible

Does the spindle lock lock up the spindle solid.....or, is there play? The reason I ask, is I use this feature for some hand sanding, and I'd rather have a solid lock-up. There is some movement. Even when using the indexing pin there is a wee bit of movement. The Robust's indexing pin locks the spindle rock solid.

You are welcome to sing the praises of other lathes here......but, I'll let you know in advance that it will be pretty darn tough to make me change my mind on these two! :D

Probably more questions to come......and, thanks for any insights, comments, whatever you have to offer in this thread.
 
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Odie,

There is a big difference in the tailstock and banjo design between the two lathes.

The 3520c's tailstock has a design that is swept back from the headstock. This means that quill
needs to travel 1.5" to be even with the tailstock's base closest to the headstock. This may not
seem like a big deal but with only four inches of travel you now only have 2.5" of travel left. The
banjo's hole for the tool rests is offset from the banjo. In the photo below you'll see that the
quill needs to be out 3.5" to hold a piece of wood against the headstock where the tool rest on
set for face work. If you have a piece that is not even then you'll need to use a live center
extension or do without the tailstock.

With the Robust the fully retracted quill is even with the left edge of the tailstock. The tool rest
hole is inline with the center of the banjo. Holding the same piece of wood to do face work the
quill only needs to be out a half an inch. This leaves 3.5" of travel to move the tailstock further
away from the work or to work on an uneven piece without using a live center extension. Both
banjos use the same tool rest clamping method which securely holds the rest in place.

PB270208.jpg PB270206.jpg
 

Bill Boehme

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Product support:
  • My limited experience with Powermatic product support was sometimes it was good and sometimes not good, but in all cases I felt like I already knew more about the lathe than the person on the other end of the line.
  • Robust product support is absolutely the best that you will find anywhere. And you will be speaking with "Mr. Robust" (Brent English) himself. He is seriously interested in resolving whatever issue that you might encounter.
Others have already talked about the difference in features. I don't know if Powermatic upgraded the VFD that was used on earlier models, but the old VFD used on the A and B models of the 3520 was a bottom of the line unit that had poor speed regulation at very slow speeds. The VFD on Robust AB lathes gives rock solid speed regulation even at the slowest speeds. I will repeat what has already been said about the swing away tailstock. Nothing else even comes close. When you swing it out of the way, it really is out of the way. Be sure to get the optional gas assist strut. Being able to adjust the height of your lathe to best fit your height is especially nice.
 
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Never could understand why some of the lathe manufacturer's incorporate a sweptback design into the tailstock base, this ends up creating issues when using other apparatus on the lathe bed to assist in more complex turnings. The banjo is a big enough nuisance without adding more conflicts in the turning zone. If they want a wide base point the sweptback design towards the tailstock end of the ways.
 
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I'll echo Bill's comments about the swing away tailstock pieces. On the 3520C the unit was spring loaded but it still felt like I was lifting the tailstock (weight wise). And while it did swing away it wasn't necessarily out of the way. With the Robust's set up it really is out of the way and with little effort. It also came installed and aligned perfectly.

If you call Brent at Robust he might be able to tell you if there is an AB owner nearby where you can go take a look at it. Maybe you can find a 3520c nearby as well.

It is a significant price difference but the minute I first turned on the lathe after it arrived I was so impressed and excited that I never thought twice about the purchase. You're still welcome to come on by :)
 
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I have not spent a lot of time on the powermatic - bought the AB nearly 7 years ago and never looked back. I did spend a fair amont of time turning on three different ABs before parting wih what for me was a considerable amount of dough, though.
Rather than repeat the praises of the tilt-away, the banjo and tailstock (all worthy of praise) my initial reactions to turning on it made me feel that the ergonomics were perfect for me. The wide spaced, fully adjustable legs provide a solid base with room to a keep close to the ways. The cut away headstock gives plenty of access to the backside of what you’re working on, and the spindle lock not only locks solidly but disconnects power until released. Stainless ways, while not afordin a grip for magnetic bases really shine when turning anything wet.
My advice - don‘t scrimp - get what you need the first time around. 3hp, tilt-away with the gas shock at a minimum. if you use a vacuum chuck, the adapter that is offerred is first rate (JD Turning tools). Its like buying a car - not getting the power sunroof doesn’t really save you that much...
Perhaps best of all, customer service is second to none. Nothing like dealing with the owner/designer/manufacturer when you’ve got a question.
 

hockenbery

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The AB is a terrific lathe I’ve turned on one quite a lot.
Haven’t turned in the new 3520C but have turned a lot on the 3520B, 3520C,and the 4224.
The 4224 would be closer in capacity to the AB

They took away the only feature the powermatic had over the AB which was the push button spindle lock.
So convenient quick and easy unless you lock your spindle for fluting or similar operations.
From my use every feature on the AB is superior to the powermatics.

You might consider the Jet 1840DVR.

You might consider the ONEWAY 2416 with a 17” bed in the outboard side.
The outboard side give you the stand in front hollowing without moving anything.
Banjo is the best there is. Index wheel Much easier to use.
The only negative for you would be your inventory of things with 1 1/4 x 8 threads.
The ONEWAY is the 33 x 3.5M
 
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Considering what you turn, Odie, do you really need a 35" bed? If a Powermatic is under consideration, perhaps it should be the 2020. I believe the 2020 is still a B model, though a C edition seems like it should be out any second now.

PS It's still only 200 miles over to Damon's shop, where apparently he still has a Powermatic to compare against his AB.
 

odie

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Considering what you turn, Odie, do you really need a 35" bed? If a Powermatic is under consideration, perhaps it should be the 2020. I believe the 2020 is still a B model, though a C edition seems like it should be out any second now.

PS It's still only 200 miles over to Damon's shop, where apparently he still has a Powermatic to compare against his AB.


Hi Dean......I'd prefer the standard bed length, both for the extra weight and stability, and as a place to keep my accessories handy while I turn. The flat front of the B model is a big "turn off" for me. It's why I never would consider a B model Powermatic, specifically because I really need access to the rear side of a bowl while using faceplates for the entire turning inside and outside. The C model has addressed this issue with the extended cone housing of the casting holding the front spindle bearings. Without this particular upgrade, I would never consider a Powermatic lathe at all.....:(

-----odie-----
 
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What is the distance between bedways on the AB?

-----odie-----
2.5" between the ways. I'll throw in a couple more thoughts.
* The AB comes with a 3 HP option. If you ever do any coring, I recommend this option because it will save you a ton of stall-out time and aggravation...plus be easier on your dental work due to less gritting of your teeth during the coring operation.
* It really is a minor thing...but the Powermatic comes with a nice digital RPM readout. However, I still wonder from time to time why one was not included on the AB. The AB does, in fact, come with a control box chart that explains how a particular setting aligns with a particular RPM...but I still had to do a little quick modification to install a digital readout on mine because that is a feature that I use about every time I whirl something. Both of them have a movable control box but the PM has the digital RPM reading built right into the control box and I like that. Like I said...it is probably a minor thing to most people...but not to me.
 
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Odie it boils down to this when you do an 18" bowl is the $8000 lathe going to do it better than the $4000 lathe (that 18" bowl is going to be hard to sell anyway). My 3520b has worked flawlessly for 14 years, I would buy it again and if I was in the market the 3520c would be my first choice, but that is me.
 
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I haven't had access to a 3520c, I did own and use a 3520B for several years. It replaced the Jet 1642 (1 1/2 hp!) which I had used for about 6 years. I preferred the Jet, even with its lesser swing and HP. A couple years ago, when I was using the 3520B at home, I took a class at Arrowmont and decided to use a Robust which was in the classroom just to see what it was like. Based on that experience, I bought an American Beauty the next week. I am very glad I did.
I still own the Jet, but I've sold the 3520B.

As to digital readout -- I don't miss or need it, although my Jet and PM had them. I've found that I can set speed accurately by eye when a given speed is needed, probably from 10 years of experience with readout. Now if I'm working on a lathe with readout, I ignore it, but if I check the number I'm close.

A tiltaway is very desirable for either. The Robust one is much smoother and easier to use.

Stainless steel vs iron bed ways -- it made no difference to me. Even with turning a lot of green oak, I never had trouble with rust or pitting with either the Jet or PM. I didn't care about slight discoloration.

I will say that that the PM held its value -- I sold it for 80-85% of what I had paid for it 3-4 years earlier.
 

odie

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Odie it boils down to this when you do an 18" bowl is the $8000 lathe going to do it better than the $4000 lathe (that 18" bowl is going to be hard to sell anyway). My 3520b has worked flawlessly for 14 years, I would buy it again and if I was in the market the 3520c would be my first choice, but that is me.

You're exactly right about that, Bill.......I see absolutely no need for the 24" swing, considering the wood that's available to me. Matter of fact, the Woodfast 16" lathe would serve my purposes very well, if I never had anything else.....but, there are a few (a very few) occasions where I have passed on large pieces of wood that I could do with a 20" swing. Even so, a 13"-15" bowl does present some problems (that can be dealt with).......but, a 20" swing would be better for dealing with these, too.......

The biggest problem I've had with my Woodfast lathe, is the banjo. The cinch for the tool rest is a simple screw. This screw for the tool post needs a lot of pressure to make that tight enough to not be a vibration problem, and I've resorted to a "cheater bar" to tighten it. That's a hassle, every time I need to make an adjustment. It's also a couple thousandths out of being perfectly flat to the ways. It does clamp down tight, but does take some extra effort to do that. I believe the entire banjo bends just a little every time I tighten it down.

After my exchanges with Damon McLaughlin here, and through some PMs & emails, I'm feeling a bit hesitant to purchase a 3520c. It appears as though the 3520c might be an outstanding lathe, but they are going through some problems working out all the little improvements that need to be done. His experiences were a year ago, and newly produced 3520c's might be improved......I don't know, and I'm not willing to spend the money without some belief that I won't be buying some headaches.

I have the money to purchase the 3520c right now......but, if I bought a Robust AB, it would be late this year before I can see that happening. If money were no object, I'd get the AB, and feel good about spending the money. My turning is "my life", and I just can't afford to make any mistakes with this purchase. :)

-----odie-----
 
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Hi Odie.......... I don't own either of the two lathes that you are looking at but all I can say is...... you deserve either one that you decide on. Turners have always said that the Robust AB is the Cadillac of all the lathes. I would go for the one I wanted my friend even if I had to wait for a little while. Just my 2 cents.:D
 
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Well, if you really want to compare Robust and PM, you need to compare the Beauty to the 4240. Pretty much the same size. One of the things that sold me on the Beauty, after the PM was the legs that adjust up or down for height. I had my old PM 3520A up on 4 by 4s... Not really sure about height adjustment on the 3520C... Another selling point was the 3 hp motor. The idea behind the tilt away/swept back tailstock is to allow for being able to turn slightly longer spindles. On my A, I could just fit a 29 1/4 inch long table leg in between centers. Yes it says 35 inches between centers, but that doesn't include spur drive and tailstock live center. I do like the spindle lock on the AB better than the PM because it isn't spring loaded. It is also wired into the controls so if you try to start the lathe with the spindle lock engaged, it won't turn on. Had to call Brent up to find out why my lathe wouldn't turn on.... The tilt away feature on the Robust is superior to the PM. The tool rest lock down set up on the PM is a new and improved version of the one on the Robust, though Brent may have new and improved his by now. At the Portland Symposium, the PM people told me Brent had 'checked out' their version. The locking wedges on either side of the tool rest post is better than the standard set screws. Made in USA is another selling point if you can afford it. I do expect my AB to live longer than me....

robo hippy
 

odie

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It is also wired into the controls so if you try to start the lathe with the spindle lock engaged, it won't turn on. Had to call Brent up to find out why my lathe wouldn't turn on....

Heh,heh,heh......well robo, I do dumb things like that all the time......sometimes I have a hard time admitting just how dumb I can be! :D Ha,ha!
 
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Odie, just a couple more thoughts.

Turning is my life too, I'm in my shop daily and smile every time I turn on the AB. Get the lathe that will make you happy and smile every day. I felt the same way, money is tight and I didn't want to make any mistakes with my purchase. I know that with the AB it was a good purchase and no mistakes were made.

My experience with the 3520c is started seven months ago and ended three months ago , not a year ago. But still that should be enough time for Powermatic to have worked out some quality control issues.

While the AB has a 24" swing I can't see making a 24" platter or bowl however I do on occasion do some wall pieces that involve of center turning, this is where the extra swing really comes in handy. Most of my turnings are smaller and could easily be done with a 16" or even 12" swing. The extra space over the bed is nice to have. The AB runs exceptionally smooth and quiet no matter what size I'm turning.

I don't have the 3520c any more as it has found a new home. Two hundred miles isn't far to drive to put your hands on a lathe and try it out if you're considering laying out big bucks. Same goes for the 3520c if you can find one.

Are you going to the symposium in Albany Oregon next month? If so feel free to make plans for a stop in Spokane.

I had the Jet 1640evs for a year and its a very nice lathe, I liked it better than the new 3520c. Its not as heavy and is only 110 volts, the 1840evs is 220v and equally as nice. Just a couple other options to consider that won't necessarily break the bank.

If you can find a used 3520b in good condition that may be an option too. The b model, in my opinion, is better built than the c model.
 
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hockenbery

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The biggest problem I've had with my Woodfast lathe, is the banjo. The cinch for the tool rest is a simple screw. This screw for the tool post needs a lot of pressure to make that tight enough to not be a vibration problem, and I've resorted to a "cheater bar" to tighten it. T

I always give a tap with the tool handle on the woodfast and powermatic 3520b too.
The short locking lever on a screw isn’t reliable. A tap with the tool handle locks it solid.

You could buy a ONEWAY banjo for a lot less than a new lathe.
 

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Odie,

I’m like Bill in that I’ve owned my PowerMatic 3520B for about 6 years. I don’t turn for a living; merely a hobby. And I can’t justify / couldn’t afford a OneWay or a Robust.

I’ve been extremely happy with my PM lathe & have no complaints. The factors I see in its favor are :

1. Loads of add-on stuff fit the PM 3520.
2. Good support (that’s been my experience)
3. Less cost, esp for the fully loaded cost.
4. Company as been around a while, and I don’t know what will happen to Robust’s ability to support users once the owner retires. (Though they, like PM could get sold.)

Kind regards,
Rich
 

odie

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The biggest problem I've had with my Woodfast lathe, is the banjo. The cinch for the tool rest is a simple screw. This screw for the tool post needs a lot of pressure to make that tight enough to not be a vibration problem, and I've resorted to a "cheater bar" to tighten it. That's a hassle, every time I need to make an adjustment. It's also a couple thousandths out of being perfectly flat to the ways. It does clamp down tight, but does take some extra effort to do that. I believe the entire banjo bends just a little every time I tighten it down.

Well gentlemen (and any ladies, if any are here!).......

It looks like I'm kicking the can down the road.....again! :rolleyes:

I had a discussion with Brent English, and I've just ordered a banjo for his Sweet 16 lathe. It should replace the banjo on my Woodfast without any modifications. Sooooooo......it looks like I'm going to be keeping the Woodfast lathe for awhile longer. Other than those problems I've been having, and described above, I have no problems keeping this very well made lathe......for now anyway. As before, I'll probably eventually get the Robust AB......but not at this juncture.

Thanks for all your input on this thread.....appreciated.

-----odie-----
 
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Odie looks like your questions have mostly been answered. Just a heads up on the tool rest on my 3520B, the toolrest doesn't lock down tight with the adjuster that comes with the lathe. It has an extra threaded hole 90 degrees from the adjuster and I installed a bolt that I use when I am doing a large out of round bowl. The spindle lock on mine is a spring loaded push button that needs to be held in. There is a protector over the button designed I guess to keep someone from accidentally hitting the lock. I took the bottom screw off the cover and turn it enough to hold the button in. For sanding I like you want the spindle locked tight so I use the spindle lock pen that screws in, it will hold solid. It can be positioned between the spindle lock holes to get a better position. I have had this lathe seven years next month and the only part that has failed is the on/off switch. It was almost out of warranty like just a few days and I called them and they sent me two switches in just a few days. I still have one in the plastic bag. I use my lath a lot.
 

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Odie looks like your questions have mostly been answered. Just a heads up on the tool rest on my 3520B, the toolrest doesn't lock down tight with the adjuster that comes with the lathe. It has an extra threaded hole 90 degrees from the adjuster and I installed a bolt that I use when I am doing a large out of round bowl. The spindle lock on mine is a spring loaded push button that needs to be held in. There is a protector over the button designed I guess to keep someone from accidentally hitting the lock. I took the bottom screw off the cover and turn it enough to hold the button in. For sanding I like you want the spindle locked tight so I use the spindle lock pen that screws in, it will hold solid. It can be positioned between the spindle lock holes to get a better position. I have had this lathe seven years next month and the only part that has failed is the on/off switch. It was almost out of warranty like just a few days and I called them and they sent me two switches in just a few days. I still have one in the plastic bag. I use my lath a lot.

Fred,

I'd love to see pictures of what you are saying regarding the toolset.


Odie,

If you do decide to go with the PowerMatic, there are some really great support communities. In particular, I have found these to be great :
And I moved the control panel on mine so that it was a remote control (like comes standard on the Robust). Instructions are at this link. Remote switch for Powermatic 3520B and here are Pictures of mine.

One other thing I did was to put grub screws (aka, set screws) in the 4 threaded openings for the spindle lock indexing pin. I did that to keep dust and dirt out of the area. Just remove them when I need to use the index pin. Seems to work well.

Screen Shot 2019-02-04 at 14.22.54.png

Kind regards,
Rich
 
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Now that your in no hurry look at the used market. Now that the 3520C model is out you may find some used B models out there. There could be a used Oneway or Robust out there.

While buying the best tool you can afford is a good principle and recommended you also need to ask what do you want to do with the lathe? The Lincoln and Ford get you to the same place but the Lincoln gets you there a little more comfortably.
 
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Since you've postponed your "full upgrade" for a few years, let me give some (useless ;)) input:

A few years ago, I was ready to upgrade from a Shopsmith. I was planning on a Powermatic 3520B (and a 1 week turning clinic), but received a raise at work, which put the Robust AB (and a 1 week turning clinic) on my radar. By inclination, I am a cheapskate. I had turned extensively locally on a friend's 3520A, then, spent several days trying a nearby (1 hr drive) Robust AB.

Considering that if I stay healthy, I will turn at least another 20 years, it's not a question of $4000 difference between the two lathes--it's whether the better ergonomics, adjustability, etc. of the Robust are worth $200/year. The answer, for me, was clearly yes.
 
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Odie, Speaking of the Sweet 16, with it's gap bed option able to handle the occasional piece larger than 15", and a price a little lower than the AB, what were your thoughts about getting the whole Sweet 16, rather than solely the banjo?
 

odie

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Odie, Speaking of the Sweet 16, with it's gap bed option able to handle the occasional piece larger than 15", and a price a little lower than the AB, what were your thoughts about getting the whole Sweet 16, rather than solely the banjo?

Hi Dean........Yes, I did contemplate the Sweet 16. There are some real advantages to that lathe......but, in the final analysis, I think the lack of a sliding headstock was a significant part of my reasoning to pass on the S16. There is another lathe.....the Vicmarc VL240 that has a rotating headstock. That one is one I contemplated quite a bit, too. I really do like the concept of the rotating headstock.....but, I think the sliding headstock has some other advantages that would be passed up with the Vicmarc.

For now.....I'm very familiar with the Woodfast lathe, and it's been my dance partner for such a long time, that I have a difficult time to give her up for the new model. As I think of this, there is no lathe that's going to make me a better turner......just a few advantages that expand some conveniences and capacity that really won't be needed very often, or maybe almost never at all. A new Robust banjo ought to solve those issues that were bugging me, even though I could do without that, too.

-----odie-----
 

odie

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thumbnail_S16 Spindle Banjo.jpg
This is the Sweet 16 spindle banjo. Brent English sent me this photo, as it's not on his website. It's a standard length banjo with an offset tool post mount, along with the 3-point Powermatic style of securing the tool rest.......just perfect for my needs, I think......

I also purchased the dog-leg for offset of the tool rest from the banjo......

-----odie-----
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I use the dog leg fairly often - mostly for Robust rests that I kept from my previous lathe (Jet 1640). The posts were too short on the three I kept for the AB I replaced it with. The dogleg gives enough additional height so they work fine. The offset comes in handy when maneuvering some rests on smaller, oddly-shaped items.
 

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I use the dog leg fairly often - mostly for Robust rests that I kept from my previous lathe (Jet 1640). The posts were too short on the three I kept for the AB I replaced it with. The dogleg gives enough additional height so they work fine. The offset comes in handy when maneuvering some rests on smaller, oddly-shaped items.


I wondered how tool rests could be adapted to a larger swing lathe. I suppose using the dogleg would give a little extra height......but, wouldn't that also present some stability issues? I guess the only other alternative is to buy all new tool rests, or cut off the old post and weld a longer one in it's place.....

-----odie-----
 

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I wondered how tool rests could be adapted to a larger swing lathe. I suppose using the dogleg would give a little extra height......but, wouldn't that also present some stability issues? I guess the only other alternative is to buy all new tool rests, or cut off the old post and weld a longer one in it's place.....

-----odie-----

Lathes with a larger swing have banjos with a taller column to hold the toolrest post. I have some toolrests from my old Delta lathe that had a 14" swing and I am able to use them on my Robust lathe that has a 25½" swing.
 

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Lathes with a larger swing have banjos with a taller column to hold the toolrest post. I have some toolrests from my old Delta lathe that had a 14" swing and I am able to use them on my Robust lathe that has a 25½" swing.

Hi Bill......There must be some difference. Why else would tool rests be available with different post lengths?:confused:

-----odie-----
 
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