Reverse direction hollowing with Vicmarc chucks

[Chris Hyde]

Hi all,
I‘m a fairly new turner and very new to hollow forms, which I find in very enticing, and am wanting to step up from my 4 mostly small hollowing tools to something that will both will allow me to make a bit bigger forms ( from 4” or so now with small but wonderful Mike Jackofsky Rocket tools and homemade, Ellsworth inspired tools from Allen keys ), to something that might get me a bit deeper and wider like 6 or so inches. I’m Not quite ready for a hollowing rig - be it from Lyle, Sinner, or the OK doctor ( as an engineer I gotta say I like that one), but as an intermediate step ive been looking at D-way hollowing tool, with the reverse turning so the sight lines are easy.
However, that tool requires the lathe to turn in reverse. I have a powermatic lathe with all Vicmarc chucks. Love them but they don’t have a set screw to prevent ( inhibit) the chuck from unwinding with a suddend deceleration ( catch, stupid turnoff without slowing first). & I am concerned about this.should I be? If I had a Vicmarc lathe it wouldn‘t be an issue with their neat collar, but my PM3520b doesn’t have the headstock spindle with the detent like the Vicmarc lathes, so that won’t work.
i take it sone folks have used this setup without a set screw and catastrophe has been avoided, but am interested to learn of others with experience. Am I rightly or wrongly concerned? Do you use the Dway in reverse without a set screw or have you modified a chuck somehow? Should I abandon this pursuit and just head down the captured rig path and be done? Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks in advance.
Chris

 

[Clifton C]

Old school would be a face plate, most (all?) of the ones I have have a grub screw. Doug does offer his hollowing tools in both configurations, one designed for the lathe running in forward rotation and one for the lathe rotating in reverse. So, a nice system to experiment with before jumping into the captured bar systems.

 

[John Dillon]

I'm curious why folks want to hollow in reverse? I guess I don't understand "sight lines" are better (when you can't see inside the form). I've hollowed by hand, and with a hollowing system, and always seems to work fine in the "forward" direction. If I was going in reverse, I think it would take a lot of practice to avoid catches. Again, just can't figure out the benefit.

 

[hockenbery]

I'm curious why folks want to hollow in reverse?

Think of it as a personal preference. Posture is a main reason for many. They find they can hand held hollow in reverse on a long bed lathe with better posture than they achieve hollowing in forward.
Other people feel they have more tool control hollowing in reverse

One of the great advantages of the jaimison system is good posture. Most of the captured systems allow good posture while hollowing.
The jaimison is easily adapted to hollow in reverse and a mirror allows easy viewing of a laser.
Video works well for revers hollowing.

 

[John Dillon]

Think of it as a personal preference. Posture is a main reason for many. They find they can hand held hollow in reverse on a long bed lathe with better posture than they achieve hollowing in forward.
Other people feel they have more tool control hollowing in reverse

One of the great advantages of the jaimison system is good posture. Most of the captured systems allow good posture while hollowing.
The jaimison is easily adapted to hollow in reverse and a mirror allows easy viewing of a laser.
Video works well for revers hollowing.

Okay - thanks. When I saw "better sight lines", I wasn't sure why that would be a reason. *Should add, I also have the Elbo 2 system and really like it.

 

[hockenbery]

Okay - thanks. When I saw "better sight lines", I wasn't sure why that would be a reason. *Should add, I also have the Elbo 2 system and really like it.

That may be a reason for some. I have discussed reverse hollowing with a few people. I don’t recall them talking about site lines but I can see where it would be easier to see how deep you are in the form when reverse hollowing.

 

[Chris Hyde]

Old school would be a face plate, most (all?) of the ones I have have a grub screw. Doug does offer his hollowing tools in both configurations, one designed for the lathe running in forward rotation and one for the lathe rotating in reverse. So, a nice system to experiment with before jumping into the captured bar systems.

Thanks Clifton. I agree that most faceplates seem to have grub screws, and likely will try that first if I go the reverse direction route, but am still interested to learn about folks experiences with 4 jaw chucks.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

Drill and tap a hole for a grub screw if your Vicmarc doesn't have one. It seems some do and some don't, but it's an easy addition if your chuck is one that uses a threaded insert. Setup might be a little harder on a direct thread model.

 

[Chris Hyde]

I'm curious why folks want to hollow in reverse? I guess I don't understand "sight lines" are better (when you can't see inside the form). I've hollowed by hand, and with a hollowing system, and always seems to work fine in the "forward" direction. If I was going in reverse, I think it would take a lot of practice to avoid catches. Again, just can't figure out the benefit.

John - my poor choice of words - not really a sight line issue but rather a management and maneuverability issue when standing to the side of a long bed. When hollowing to the side, I understand the advantage is that you bring the tool towards your body to hollow out the edges as opposed to pushing the tool handle away from your body. I can’t help but think that is an improvement.
Clearly you are not seeming to encounter that as an issue though, which I will certainly keep in mind. Thanks for the input.

 

[Chris Hyde]

Think of it as a personal preference. Posture is a main reason for many. They find they can hand held hollow in reverse on a long bed lathe with better posture than they achieve hollowing in forward.
Other people feel they have more tool control hollowing in reverse

One of the great advantages of the jaimison system is good posture. Most of the captured systems allow good posture while hollowing.
The jaimison is easily adapted to hollow in reverse and a mirror allows easy viewing of a laser.
Video works well for revers hollowing.

Thanks Hockenbery. Agree on the posture and if I’m not mistaken it’s also an issue of potentially better tool control by more naturally keeping the handle tighter to your body rather than leaning over the bedways. Do you see it that way or isn’t that an issue for hollowing without a captured system?

 

[Chris Hyde]

Drill and tap a hole for a grub screw if your Vicmarc doesn't have one. It seems some do and some don't, but it's an easy addition if your chuck is one that uses a threaded insert. Setup might be a little harder on a direct thread model.

Roger thank you. I think that could be a good idea.

 

[Michael Anderson]

I agree with Roger. Drilling and tapping is the best option. OR you can just by a dedicated hollowing chuck.

 

[hockenbery]

Thanks Hockenbery. Agree on the posture and if I’m not mistaken it’s also an issue of potentially better tool control by more naturally keeping the handle tighter to your body rather than leaning over the bedways. Do you see it that way or isn’t that an issue for hollowing without a captured system?

If you lean over in any type of turning for any length of time you will like get a sore back - an unhappy and unproductive situation.

Most hand hollowers Hollow outboard or the end of a sliding headstock this gives good posture and tool control.
On a long bed lathe straddling the lathe is quite a comfortable way to hollow.

But using the Jamison system, Simon hope, or other quality trapped system will provide both great posture and superior tool control.

 

[Chris Hyde]

I agree with Roger. Drilling and tapping is the best option. OR you can just by a dedicated hollowing chuck.

Michael, thanks- I think the dedicated chuck is another good possibility, but I’m assuming that would mean another set of jaws as well unless there is a chuck that would work with my vicmarc jaws. Are you or others aware if any other chuck bodies work with vicmarc jaws?

 

[Michael Anderson]

Right, jaws too. I can’t speak on cross-brand jaw compatibility, unfortunately. That said, that standard jaws that come with most chucks should be fine for a 6” hollowform.

 

[Chris Hyde]

If you lean over in any type of turning for any length of time you will like get a sore back - an unhappy and unproductive situation.

Most hand hollowers Hollow outboard or the end of a sliding headstock this gives good posture and tool control.
On a long bed lathe straddling the lathe is quite a comfortable way to hollow.

But using the Jamison system, Simon hope, or other quality trapped system will provide both great posture and superior tool control.

Hockenbery, I certainly can see your points and agree. I’m do sometimes move the sliding headstock down which works well, for hollowing, and I guess it would obviate the benefit of reverse rotation hollowing ( though I also think that there might be other benifits like turning in both directions might help clean up tool marks better caused by flex when you have an gapped opening that seems to dig in unevenly between approaching vs departing the gap.
Does that make sense?

 

[Chris Hyde]

Right, jaws too. I can’t speak on cross-brand jaw compatibility, unfortunately. That said, that standard jaws that come with most chucks should be fine for a 6” hollowform.

True. Wouldn’t need more doing freehand I suppose. Thanks

 

[hockenbery]

also think that there might be other benifits like turning in both directions might help clean up tool marks better caused by flex when you have an gapped opening that seems to dig in unevenly between approaching vs departing the gap.

This may be something to try. The straight tools will work forward and reverse. Hook tools - you either need a left tool and right tool or you need to turn the cutter upside down to go from forward to reverse.


I use a teardrop scraper to clean up tool marks. When I get flex in an opening i try to stop the flex using tape and wire to keep the tape from being cut by the hollowing.

This is a 14” diameter maple burl that I used some tape and wire to reduce vibration.

 

[Timothy Allen]

One can "hollow in reverse" with the lathe turning in it's normal direction (and no concern about your chuck un-screwing itself from the spindle) simply by standing on the back side of the lathe.

 

[Chris Hyde]

This may be something to try. The straight tools will work forward and reverse. Hook tools - you either need a left tool and right tool or you need to turn the cutter upside down to go from forward to reverse.


I use a teardrop scraper to clean up tool marks. When I get flex in an opening i try to stop the flex using tape and wire to keep the tape from being cut by the hollowing.

This is a 14” diameter maple burl that I used some tape and wire to reduce vibration. View attachment 48063. View attachment 48065

Wow- that’s beautiful Hockenbery! It’s what I aspire to in time. I do assume at that size, you’d really want a captive system. I take it that you use and like Lyle’s?

 

[hockenbery]

Wow- that’s beautiful Hockenbery! It’s what I aspire to in time. I do assume at that size, you’d really want a captive system. I take it that you use and like Lyle’s?

It just takes practice. That size can be done hand held.
I used the Jamison dee handle and my plywood back rest for that one.
Lyles system is great. Easy to use. Not too pricey. I like the bosch hollowing bars.
I now have the Simon hope.

 

[robo hippy]

Dave Schweitzer, former owner of D Way, built his hollowing system for standing on the 'wrong' side of the lathe. Don't remember the exact reasons, but it worked better for him. I do have one of the Easy Wood chucks, and it really does take only seconds to change out the jaws. Their jaws are not the same size as the Vicmark jaws. Still trying to work my way around that one.... Might have to request and see if they can make Vicmark sized jaws. I have too many things that are set up on those specific jaw sizes.

robo hippy

 

[Chris Hyde]

One can "hollow in reverse" with the lathe turning in it's normal direction (and no concern about your chuck un-screwing itself from the spindle) simply by standing on the back side of the lathe.

Tim, thanks for the input and I agree that's an option if you have access to that side of your lathe. However, I would think that would also require one to switch which hand/arm you must use for controlling the hollowing tool, right? Not sure how comfortable I'd be with that. I have much better control with my right hand than left.

 

[Chris Hyde]

Well thanks to all for your inputs, suggestions and contributions! Since my Mustard Monster's headstock slides, I think I'll forgo the reverse turning thought and it's risks of unwinding the chuch and it's payload, and just shimmy on down to the end and hollow face on in the forward rotating direction.

 

[Chris Hyde]

It just takes practice. That size can be done hand held.
I used the Jamison dee handle and my plywood back rest for that one.
Lyles system is great. Easy to use. Not too pricey. I like the bosch hollowing bars.
I now have the Simon hope.

If I may ask, Why did you go with the Hope rig as opposed to the Bosch Rig given you like Trents bars? Is it cost ( Hope is much less expensive) or something else?

 

[Doug Freeman]

I do quite a bit of hollowing, and each piece is at least started with hand held tools (medium to large pieces I use a Jamieson rig). I do all the hand held in reverse. Depending on entry hole size, “sighting” is part of it, but ergonomics are the main driver. Tool control is improved by virtue of being able to keep your arms close to your body bs extended over the lathe or sitting on the lathe.

I have several chucks (no Vics) that I drilled and tapped for set screws, both for reverse hollowing as well as decelerating a piece quickly. I have a Nova DVR with programmable decel, and I like it stop fairly quickly, which can unwind a chuck.

 

[Chris Hyde]

I do quite a bit of hollowing, and each piece is at least started with hand held tools (medium to large pieces I use a Jamieson rig). I do all the hand held in reverse. Depending on entry hole size, “sighting” is part of it, but ergonomics are the main driver. Tool control is improved by virtue of being able to keep your arms close to your body bs extended over the lathe or sitting on the lathe.

I have several chucks (no Vics) that I drilled and tapped for set screws, both for reverse hollowing as well as decelerating a piece quickly. I have a Nova DVR with programmable decel, and I like it stop fairly quickly, which can unwind a chuck.

Thanks for chiming in Doug. You are one of the first to say they do reverse hollow. May I ask What tools do you use (beside straight)? Dway or other?

 

[Doug Freeman]

Thanks for chiming in Doug. You are one of the first to say they do reverse hollow. May I ask What tools do you use (beside straight)? Dway or other?

For hand held I make make own tools and use a flat top carbide 8.9mm round cutter (smallest I could find). I have 3/8” and 1/2” dia mild steel bars from the box store, and bend the swan necks by holding the bars in a bench vise and using a propane torch to heat, and mechanic’s end wrenches to bend. A 4” hand grinder roughs in the cutter area which is then refined with hand files. I cut the bar to ~ 10”, and have ~8” extension from the handle. Pics of a 1/2” bar swan neck below (handle ~25” long). I only go 4-5” off the tool rest, any deeper and out comes the hollowing rig.

I prefer a small carbide cutter for hand held - it is less aggressive vs a burnished hook hss 3/16” tip (use those in my hollowing rig).

 

[Chris Hyde]

Thanks Doug, that looks great. I have to give this a try. Where do you get your carbide cutters?

 

[Doug Freeman]

Ebay. I paid $25 for 10 w/free shipping. The 1st ones I got were from AZ Carbide I think and came with screws so I would know the screw design.

 

[Chris Hyde]

Thank you Doug.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

Hi all,
I‘m a fairly new turner and very new to hollow forms, which I find in very enticing, and am wanting to step up from my 4 mostly small hollowing tools to something that will both will allow me to make a bit bigger forms ( from 4” or so now with small but wonderful Mike Jackofsky Rocket tools and homemade, Ellsworth inspired tools from Allen keys ), to something that might get me a bit deeper and wider like 6 or so inches. I’m Not quite ready for a hollowing rig - be it from Lyle, Sinner, or the OK doctor ( as an engineer I gotta say I like that one), but as an intermediate step ive been looking at D-way hollowing tool, with the reverse turning so the sight lines are easy.
However, that tool requires the lathe to turn in reverse. I have a powermatic lathe with all Vicmarc chucks. Love them but they don’t have a set screw to prevent ( inhibit) the chuck from unwinding with a suddend deceleration ( catch, stupid turnoff without slowing first). & I am concerned about this.should I be? If I had a Vicmarc lathe it wouldn‘t be an issue with their neat collar, but my PM3520b doesn’t have the headstock spindle with the detent like the Vicmarc lathes, so that won’t work.
i take it sone folks have used this setup without a set screw and catastrophe has been avoided, but am interested to learn of others with experience. Am I rightly or wrongly concerned? Do you use the Dway in reverse without a set screw or have you modified a chuck somehow? Should I abandon this pursuit and just head down the captured rig path and be done? Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks in advance.
Chris

You can buy the D-Way hollower both ways. They also make one for turning in forward.

 

[Stan Pressner]

I hollow in reverse w a Bosch rig and Vicmarcs, and it has not been a problem yet.

 

[Chris Hyde]

I hollow in reverse w a Bosch rig and Vicmarcs, and it has not been a problem yet.

Stan, Thank you for chiming in. You are the first to report using Vicmarc (presumably unsecured by grubscrew or other addition) in reverse hollowing. I'm glad to here you've not had an issue thus far. So you reduce your risk of catches through a captured system (Trent's), which I suspect is important vs freehanding but my so may I ask ...

I wonder what the edges of the operating envelope you've experienced thus far?
What chuck have you used (VM120 I'd guess)
Have you had any serious catches during this time ( and still no issues), or have you had catches and still had no issues?
And Lastly, how wide and deep have you gone with this approach ?
I ask, as catches and even just cutting at larger "moment arms" (added length to the side particularly) create the potential for inducing more torque and impulses trying to unwind the chuck.

Thanks again for your input and helping me (and hopefully others) understand the potential!

Chris

 

[Stan Pressner]

Stan, Thank you for chiming in. You are the first to report using Vicmarc (presumably unsecured by grubscrew or other addition) in reverse hollowing. I'm glad to here you've not had an issue thus far. So you reduce your risk of catches through a captured system (Trent's), which I suspect is important vs freehanding but my so may I ask ...

I wonder what the edges of the operating envelope you've experienced thus far?
What chuck have you used (VM120 I'd guess)
Have you had any serious catches during this time ( and still no issues), or have you had catches and still had no issues?
And Lastly, how wide and deep have you gone with this approach ?
I ask, as catches and even just cutting at larger "moment arms" (added length to the side particularly) create the potential for inducing more torque and impulses trying to unwind the chuck.

Thanks again for your input and helping me (and hopefully others) understand the potential!

Chris

Chris,

Disclaimer: I do not recommend this!
I have gone up to 6" deep and 6" wide, beyond that, I switch to a faceplate. Yes on the VM120. I have only had minor catches, I think due to using Trent's carbide tools tipped slightly sideways to be less aggressive. I still do worry about unwinding, but less so as time passes without a problem. I do do the "snap" when mounting the chuck, and I do not use a plastic washer. That said, I think I will tap a hole for a grub screw for safety, just have not gotten to it yet.

 

[Chris Hyde]

Chris,

Disclaimer: I do not recommend this!
I have gone up to 6" deep and 6" wide, beyond that, I switch to a faceplate. Yes on the VM120. I have only had minor catches, I think due to using Trent's carbide tools tipped slightly sideways to be less aggressive. I still do worry about unwinding, but less so as time passes without a problem. I do do the "snap" when mounting the chuck, and I do not use a plastic washer. That said, I think I will tap a hole for a grub screw for safety, just have not gotten to it yet.

Thanks Stan,
I agree with all your points, and thanks for the further clarifications and precautionary input. At the start of this thread I knew it could be ( and is) done, but had concerns. You’ve validated those concerns and am glad nothing problematic has happened thus far for you, but I think it’s clear that precautions should be taken- chiefly secure the chuck from the potential to unwind when reverse hollowing.
Thank you and happy hollowing!

 

[Ric Williams]

FWIW, I have a 3520C (and Vicmarc chucks) and do all my hollowing from the tailstock end, even most bowls. I'm mostly left handed and find hollowing from the side more cumbersome. I move the headstock 1/2 to 2/3 of the way toward the end and stand at the end. Much more comfortable than leaning in from the side.

 

[GRJensen]

FWIW, I have a 3520C (and Vicmarc chucks) and do all my hollowing from the tailstock end, even most bowls. I'm mostly left handed and find hollowing from the side more cumbersome. I move the headstock 1/2 to 2/3 of the way toward the end and stand at the end. Much more comfortable than leaning in from the side.

Me, too. My 3520C has the swing-away tailstock ... I just drop the tailstock out of the way, scoot the headstock down the bedways, and get to work.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

FWIW, I have a 3520C (and Vicmarc chucks) and do all my hollowing from the tailstock end, even most bowls. I'm mostly left handed and find hollowing from the side more cumbersome. I move the headstock 1/2 to 2/3 of the way toward the end and stand at the end. Much more comfortable than leaning in from the side.

That is why I have a pivoting headstock.

 

[Ric Williams]

That is why I have a pivoting headstock.

Wait a minute. You have a pivoting headstock because I have a 3520C (and Vicmarc chucks)??? Not sure I understand the connection...

If I had that option, I'd certainly use it, but I'm fine with sliding the headstock a couple of feet. I need the exercise.