Recess or tenon

[Bill Boehme]

Al I always hear this about wasting wood , but here in Mississippi it grows on trees. It is like thinking how much wood goes in the fire just from cutting out the blank and the amount of waste around the tenon is infinitesimal unless you paid $200 for the blank.Even if you paid for it the waste is still there in blank prep.

And then there are those design changes which really waste a lot of wood. Not trying to be argumentative it is just the semantics of the situation.

Another point is 5 years ago I would not have defended using a recess but with experience I like it on larger pieces . It is still not my go to thing but I am beginning to see possibilities when you can use it and then the bottom is finished.

Most of the time I use a tenon, but occasionally I find a mortise best serves my need for the task at hand. The end user probably doesn't even care how it was made. The only reason that we care is that we have a problem to solve so we choose what we believe to be the best option based on the tools and materials that we have at our disposal. It's good that we can share ideas and see that there's more than one way to skin a cat oops solve a problem. I've read that back in the days of the apprentice system there were three ways to perform a task -- the right way, the wrong way, and the master's way. Guess which way you will do the task. This forum would have been heresy back then.

As to having a forest of trees, that's a digression since we're dealing with mounting a particular piece of wood that we actually have in hand. I never thought that I would be buying wood from a boutique (Woodcraft, Rockler Hardware, etc.), but a lot of the wood that I want doesn't grow on trees ... well, not on trees in this part of Texas ... and even if it does, the trees in an urban forest belong to other people. The trouble with buying "pretty" wood at a boutique is that somebody has already cut it into what they think are the right size turning blanks. There's rarely enough "meat" for either a tenon or a mortise so I sometimes do what Odie does and use a glue block which gives you more options for mounting it on the lathe (thanks Odie for reminding me that this is another option worth considering).

When I was a few years younger getting so called "free" wood was "fun" ... not so much fun these days. I have 25 acres of trees, but it's a four hour drive from where I live, the underbrush is very thick, and the trees are predominantly post oak which just loves to crack as it dries, and I no longer cut down healthy trees just for turning wood.

 

[hockenbery]

Al I always hear this about wasting wood , but here in Mississippi it grows on trees. It is like thinking how much wood goes in the fire just from cutting out the blank and the amount of waste around the tenon is infinitesimal.

True on a big piece of wood with uniform figure.

I use faceplates on my hollow forms and they usually waste a lot more wood than a recess even when the foot is made between the screws.

My first chuck in the 70s was a precision chuck it only did a recess for bowls.
So I got a lot of experience with the recess.
I still use them on rare occasions.

My NE Bowls are almost all footless round bottoms these days.
A NE bowl from a half log will get shorter with a recess by th depth of the recess.
On a NE bowl from a crotch I get a bigger bowl with a tenon than I could with a recess and the recess would eat up at least 3/8” of the feather figure if I’m doing 2 bowls from the same crotch. With a tenon I can put the bottom inside within a 1/4” of the face of the tenon inside the chuck sometimes closer by accident.

Of course Both types of bowl blanks can be cut to include the pith. I sometimes do that on the crotch pieces going for one great one rather than two good ones. I don’t mind wasting wood if there is a benefit Just not going to waste it so I can use a recess.

Also I am comfortable with an 3/16” tall dovetail tenon on a 15” NE bowl because I do a lot of the hollowing with the tailstock in place. I would not be comfortable with recess less than 3/8” deep on a 15” bowl.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Bill and Al if you want some wood to waste or just to play with I have a shop full and I know where a 60 inch pecan is I have been cutting on. Just come on by.

Al I had not even thought of using a 3/16 tenon.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

The one point that I did not see unless I missed it is that when green turning and using dovetail jaws the tenon must be over sized enough to allow truing the tenon to the perfect circle when the blank has dried, however the recess will shrink when it dries.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill and Al if you want some wood to waste or just to play with I have a shop full and I know where a 60 inch pecan is I have been cutting on. Just come on by.

Al I had not even thought of using a 3/16 tenon.

You're tempting me, but I'm shopping for a new ride ... currently I don't dare drive farther than I mind walking back home.

The 3/16" is the height and not the diameter. I've had tenons that not much more than 1/16" when I had to remount a finished foot. I made very gentle cuts.

The one point that I did not see unless I missed it is that when green turning and using dovetail jaws the tenon must be over sized enough to allow truing the tenon to the perfect circle when the blank has dried, however the recess will shrink when it dries.

That's a very good point if using dovetail jaws. I usually use Oneway profiled jaws on twice turned pieces.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Of course we have been over this subject before, but I am using a recess 90% of the time if not more when bowl turning.

A properly made recess is stronger than a tenon, and with my Oneway chucks with the profiled jaws, they have a thin shoulder on the outer edge and do hold the wood right in the bottom of the recess.

So my recess is just deeper than the wood around the recess, and so the jaws are pushing against the bowl’s wood rather than a ring turned on the bowl, here the extra depth just shown in orange, 2mm is plenty


If you look here, you can see a couple of the 1000 bowls with the bottom up, all show the recess but for one that shows screw holes from when I used a faceplate.


As for wasting wood if that is of any importance, this as shown before, turn the top orange away and you have a tenon, turn the center part away and it is a recess.



Was it a tenon or recess, and how much wood was wasted, as this is the outside of the wood, cambium next.
You like a tenon ??, that’s fine with me, just don’t tell me a recess is wasting wood or is not as strong as a tenon, you are wrong in both cases ;-))

 

[hockenbery]

that’s fine with me, just don’t tell me a recess is wasting wood

In your example no wood is wasted.

But with special figure near the bottom of the bowl like in a natural edge crotch bowl then a recess does waste wood.

If I were to make two NE bowls from a crotch cut in half with a shallow round bottom
One with a tenon and one with a recess. I will loose at least 3/8” of the feather in the one made with a recess and end up with a slightly smaller bowl. I will loose almost nothing from the figure with the tenon except the thickness of the bowl wall.

The flame or feather figure in a crotch is fairly thin so taking 3/8” for a recess wastes a lot of it.
My drawings aren’t nearly as nice as yours
You could save some of the wood by leaving a tenon inside the recess. But you still need some depth for the recess.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I have no problem catching the feather and as the main feature, the chainsaw cut and subsequent warping are the main problem for me, and then there is always the glue block to mount the piece if you want a natural/unnatural edge.
And I don’t think I would need a ⅜” recess, about ⅛” will do in sound hardwood.



I just finished a couple of hard Honey Locust Gavel sound blocks, recess to hold and turn the top side is no more than 1/16”

 

[hockenbery]

View attachment 28775 I have no problem catching the feather and as the main feature, the chainsaw cut and subsequent warping are the main problem for me, and then there is always the glue block to mount the piece if you want a natural/unnatural edge.
And I don’t think I would need a ⅜” recess, about ⅛” will do in sound hardwood.

I just finished a couple of hard Honey Locust Gavel sound blocks, recess to hold and turn the top side is no more than 1/16” .

You are kind of side stepping the point I made by showing a

. Really sad looking NE bowl. You cut off the rim.

A glue block is fine alternative when the recess wastes too much wood

I used to use glue block for NE bowls a lot.
But it isn’t necessary with a tenon because the outside bottom of the bowl can be down to the outside face of the tenon.

One of the magical things that happens with and Ne bowl is the bottom warps up a little essentially making Three feet from a shallow round bottom

 

[john lucas]

Not being a production bowl turner For me I don't always use the best of woods. I can see if are a Glen Lucas Or Leo you buy good wood and harvest it so you can make the same shape bowl all the time. I use what i have and often have to change the shape. a tenon gives me that option. I loose more wood when I try to save a piece like this one if I use a rebate. This piece had cracks that went deeper than they looked. I had to keep shaving the wood down. Since I had a tenon it was pretty easy to just keep cutting until I got rid of all the checks and then deal with that shape to save the bowl. I start between centers to see what the problems are and then it's pretty easy to just turn a tenon on what will end up being the bottom.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I’ve turned a few ( maybe more ;-)) ) natural edge turnings, but no 3 feet on them, maybe twice turned does have the wood behave itself better.

For those that think I am a production turner, you are wrong, though I have turned as a hobby for more than 60 years, and yes I have a lot of rough turned bowls that did not get returned yet.
As for wood, I never bought any, but for a few small pieces of tropical wood, and only harvested a couple of trees for turning wood.
Most of my wood came from the city wood dump.



and yes I used a recess, to bad it hadn’t any feather.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

Not being a production bowl turner For me I don't always use the best of woods. I can see if are a Glen Lucas Or Leo you buy good wood and harvest it so you can make the same shape bowl all the time. I use what i have and often have to change the shape. a tenon gives me that option. I loose more wood when I try to save a piece like this one if I use a rebate. This piece had cracks that went deeper than they looked. I had to keep shaving the wood down. Since I had a tenon it was pretty easy to just keep cutting until I got rid of all the checks and then deal with that shape to save the bowl. I start between centers to see what the problems are and then it's pretty easy to just turn a tenon on what will end up being the bottom.

Won't convince me. I reshape bowls all the time with recesses in the bottom. Most bowls can be put back on using cole jaws (probably other methods I'm just not experienced with). Anyway, it just gets back to what I said before . . . Do whatever works for you and, what works for me most of the time, are recesses and sometimes, tenons.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

Leo,

By the way, great looking bowl. (I probably didn't have to tell you that, but it is.)

Randy

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo,

By the way, great looking bowl. (I probably didn't have to tell you that, but it is.)

Randy

Thanks Randy

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Not being a production bowl turner For me I don't always use the best of woods. I can see if are a Glen Lucas Or Leo you buy good wood and harvest it so you can make the same shape bowl all the time. I use what i have and often have to change the shape. a tenon gives me that option. I loose more wood when I try to save a piece like this one if I use a rebate. This piece had cracks that went deeper than they looked. I had to keep shaving the wood down. Since I had a tenon it was pretty easy to just keep cutting until I got rid of all the checks and then deal with that shape to save the bowl. I start between centers to see what the problems are and then it's pretty easy to just turn a tenon on what will end up being the bottom.

John If I had a piece of wood with checks and splits, the first thing I would do is to get it on the bandsaw and start cutting pieces off of it, slice after slice until a was past the splits, thin slices if not obviously split will show if there is still any by bending them carefully, any split or check will show up.

Oh and this is where most of my wood came from, city woodlot.

 

[john lucas]

Leo Our local wood lot won't let us in. They used to. I got some great Curly maple there years ago, but now it all goes into mulch, bummer. Even the local dump frowns on me taking more wood out than I take in. She did let me the last time but said I really wasn't supposed to do that. I would love to have the option of starting from a whole log and cut out the cracks and then cut a solid piece to turn. Doesn't happen for me and I suspect most other turners as well. You get wood, you have to process it into smaller blanks and to get it out of the driveway. So I seal them and they do last a long time but since I turn a lot of other things, bowl and hollow vessel blanks tend to sit there. Once I do get around to roughing it out many have already started to crack a little. Most of the time it's just on the edges and once you start the bowl and round it over your OK. Sometimes though they go a lot deeper than you think.

 

[Brian Longshore]

I would have to agree with most on this thread. The mechanical advantage has to go to the tenon. While I think it is great that the engineer's came up with the concept of the recess chucking for my piece of mind I always use a dovetail tenon. But, I always remember Lyle Jamieson's recommendation of using faceplate and screwing down every piece which is actually the only real way to ensure its secure short of a structural failure which we can't always detect by inspecting the wood. For me, if the dovetail tenon doesn't work or seem secure enough the next step is always to screw it in with a faceplate. If you did not start out with a large enough piece of wood to secure it properly with screws then I would assume it would make most want to take the risk of recess mounting. As for me, I am not confident enough in the mechanical advantage/disadvantage of it to take the risk.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo Our local wood lot won't let us in. They used to. I got some great Curly maple there years ago, but now it all goes into mulch, bummer. Even the local dump frowns on me taking more wood out than I take in. She did let me the last time but said I really wasn't supposed to do that. I would love to have the option of starting from a whole log and cut out the cracks and then cut a solid piece to turn. Doesn't happen for me and I suspect most other turners as well. You get wood, you have to process it into smaller blanks and to get it out of the driveway. So I seal them and they do last a long time but since I turn a lot of other things, bowl and hollow vessel blanks tend to sit there. Once I do get around to roughing it out many have already started to crack a little. Most of the time it's just on the edges and once you start the bowl and round it over your OK. Sometimes though they go a lot deeper than you think.

John you do know what you are doing with your wood is totally wrong, first off you do not cut up the larger log if you are not able to start turning it.

Having it cut up and then let it sit, is a no no, especially if you have a difficult time to get logs for turning.

When I got a log I keep it as long as possible, large logs I can not keep whole, so they do get cut up, and I will start turning that same day or the next, no use to get wood if you can’t process it.

If I get several pieces I will seal the ends right away or pull a plastic bag over the ends, tape it tight and then I turn turn turn, this picture here shows a large White Ash I hauled home and the next one the bowls from it.

The shavings on the floor are sometimes a foot deep trampled down, but that can be cleaned up after, the important part is to prevent the wood from starting to split, so rough it out.

 

[john lucas]

I cant keep logs laying around. I now live in a nice neighborhood and want to keep my property clutter free. So I have to harvest them in some way or another immediately. I seal the ends immediately but just cant or dont turn them for a while. Much of my wood gets cut up into spindle blanks for boxes,mirrors, lamps etc.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I cant keep logs laying around. I now live in a nice neighborhood and want to keep my property clutter free. So I have to harvest them in some way or another immediately. I seal the ends immediately but just cant or dont turn them for a while. Much of my wood gets cut up into spindle blanks for boxes,mirrors, lamps etc.

Sorry John, but I lived at my place for 40 years right down to the month, and it was in a upscale area of London, no clutter or mess around my place, I have stuck a few logs into my shop like when I got half a dozen logs I did not leave sitting along the road where the city electrical dept. had just cut them down.

Where I live now, I have miles of Crown Forest all around me, and there is no clutter or mess here either, just not the way we want to live.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

You're tempting me, but I'm shopping for a new ride ... currently I don't dare drive farther than I mind walking back home.

The 3/16" is the height and not the diameter. I've had tenons that not much more than 1/16" when I had to remount a finished foot. I made very gentle cuts.



That's a very good point if using dovetail jaws. I usually use Oneway profiled jaws on twice turned pieces.

Ya I do too but most turners have been convinced that the dovetail jaws are the only way to go.