Raygear Face Shield and Woodturning PPE

[Mark Mandell]

Really?

Or ...... see if the high speed test track at Hollaman AFB is available. For those who aren't familiar with it, the high speed test track is the world's longest rocket powered sled. We used it for bird strike studies against aircraft canopies and radomes. The nose section of the aircraft was mounted on the sled and while it was being rocketed down the track, a specially designed cannon at the other end of the track fired a partially thawed out Tyson chicken at the approaching canopy to simulate a strike with a large bird such as a such as a goose or heron or vulture. By the time that the two met, the chicken was fully thawed. If we could convince Odie that the rocket powered sled is like an amusement park ride .... (Just working on ideas for a repeatable test structure -- assuming we could convince Odie or anybody else to do that ride more than once).

Geez, Bill, I know that he and I have had our disagreements on this board but . . .

Are you really suggesting that we "Launch" Odie?

 

[Bill Boehme]

....Are you really suggesting that we "Launch" Odie?

No need to go all NASA on me. Think of it more like the greatest theme park ride ever. And, ... no chickens will be involved in the test. I'm sure that Evel Knievel would have "jumped" on this opportunity to advance the safety of woodturning PPE.

Technically speaking, since the ten mile long test track is perfectly level, it would only be considered a "launch" if the Earth were flat and if Holloman AFB were near enough to the edge to go over the side.

 

[Sergio Villa]

Licia Albanese died aged 105 in August and Magda Olivero died yesterday at 104. They were among the greatest operatic sopranos. Real prime donne, not like the ones that can be seen in various forums...

 

[Mark Mandell]

Licia Albanese died aged 105 in August and Magda Olivero died yesterday at 104. They were among the greatest operatic sopranos. Real prime donne, not like the ones that can be seen in various forums...

Huh?
Care to expand on that a bit, Sergio?

 

[Odie]

When I was younger, I was pretty gutsy, and would probably have taken a ride on a rocket powered sled for the thrill of it. These days, it would probably confirm the reasons why a 65 year old man isn't a good candidate to be an astronaut!

What we have here is nothing but opinions, mine included....and unless a scientific study were available (that would satisfy Bill ), we have to use our best judgment about what we, as woodturners, might use to increase our safety options. It is my best guess that the headband, seeing as how the riot face shield would be attached to it, will absorb some of the energy of a hit from a piece of wood launched from the lathe. It's also my opinion that a more rigid face shield than the original ones supplied with standard face shields would provide better protection than managing a hit while wearing a face shield that is much more flexible. A riot face shield could be forced back into the face, but I have another opinion that the damage would be less than one that easily flexes. I suppose the pros and cons of those opinions could be argued, but without the real world experiences, or scientific testing, one opinion is as good as another.

I do agree that the bionic face shield would be a better option than a standard face shield......seeing as how the bottom of the shield is reinforced. Off hand, and considering this......since the pivot point is the same as a standard face shield, it may (or may not) be any better an option than the riot face shield mounted to a standard adjustable headband.

Just wondering......does anyone need scientific testing to be convinced my modified fielder's face shield might be a better option than anything else being discussed here? (Well, maybe not the suit of armor! Heh,heh,heh!) The problem with the fielder's mask is that I don't use it all the time......only when my intuition tells me the risk is more than usual.

ooc

 

[Odie]

Huh?
Care to expand on that a bit, Sergio?

I get it!

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

I get it!

ooc

Well, that makes at least two of you. Care to share with those of us who lack a clue?

 

[Sergio Villa]

Huh?
Care to expand on that a bit, Sergio?

Licia e Magda sang very well the other....

http://youtu.be/APxEylz7crs
http://youtu.be/AMdV_BDWVNw

 

[Mark Mandell]

Licia e Magda sang very well the other....

http://youtu.be/APxEylz7crs
http://youtu.be/AMdV_BDWVNw

Two very talented ladies who had long and productive lives and careers.

What does their passing have to do with this forum or woodturning lathe safety equipment in particular?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Two very talented ladies who had long and productive lives and careers.

What does their passing have to do with this forum or woodturning lathe safety equipment in particular?

Let's see .... here are some possibilities:

1. We're being compared to two of the greatest opera singers ever ... not likely
2. The fat lady has sung -- time to end the thread ... nah, they weren't fat
3. We're a beer and pretzel crowd and need things explained ... very likely. I'll open a cool one and ponder it

 

[Mark Mandell]

does anyone need scientific testing to be convinced my modified fielder's face shield might be a better option than anything else being discussed here? (Well, maybe not the suit of armor! Heh,heh,heh!) The problem with the fielder's mask is that I don't use it all the time......only when my intuition tells me the risk is more than usual.

Seems what we're looking for is a rig that turners will wear all the time (not just when intuition whispers in one's ear). I don't doubt that a catcher's mask might well work in a lot of situations to protect the face. It won't however, deal with the trauma to the cerebral spine caused by the frontal impact of a weighty chunk of wood moving at speed.

Interesting that we have had the most likely solution for decades, that being the lathe cage that nobody uses. We wouldn't even need to use it all the time; just when a particular operation tends to place the turner in the kill zone. I could be wrong, but for the rest of the time, something to keep the shavings, dust, and liquids out of your face might be sufficient.

Hmm, might be a business opportunity here. . .

 

[Bill Boehme]

I don't have a Powermatic lathe, but I have seen the cages installed on them. I haven't seen any major problem with them. They could probably stand a bit of redesign ... maybe even a set of shields for different situations. The best thing about those cages is that the lathe takes all of the abuse that would otherwise pose a danger to us.

Workers in industry are required to take all sorts of safety training, Even we engineers had to go through that sort of training because we frequently were out in the shop with the production line workers to fine tune things and solve problems. Meanwhile, woodturners get zero safety training unless we actively seek it. Many woodturners take it as a personal affront if somebody suggests adopting any safety practices whatsoever.

Since the AAW is all about education, I see a very significant need that is only getting passing mention as if not wanting to offend anyone by mentioning the S word (that would be "safety" just in case anybody is wondering).

I can't remember our club ever having a meeting dedicated to safety training. The closest that we have come to that is bestowing the title of "Safety Officer" to someone who has had to make a trip to the ER because of a woodturning mishap.

 

[hockenbery]

.
Since the AAW is all about education, I see a very significant need that is only getting passing mention as if not wanting to offend anyone by mentioning the S word (that would be "safety" just in case anybody is wondering). I can't remember our club ever having a meeting dedicated to safety training. The closest that we have come to that is bestowing the title of "Safety Officer" to someone who has had to make a trip to the ER because of a woodturning mishap.

The AAW symposiums have included safety demos the past 3 years at least.
The AAW has Safety for Woodturners available as free download.
A hard copy of this book was sent to each chapter.

Our club has a 5-10 minute safety demonstration before the traditional demonstration.
Most demonstrations include safety tips related to demo.
All clubs should do a short safety-tips demo each meeting.

Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

A Ticklish Problem

The AAW has made substantial efforts to promote safety in both methods and equipment. These two threads on faceshields fairly demonstrate that, so far, pretty much nothing available is going to protect a turner in the event of a catastrophic failure of the wood being turned.

We have several problems here:

1.How to make the safe-turning message valid and effective while at the same time making it idiot-proof plain that even with all safe procedures in use, turners can be, and have been, killed and seriously injured doing this.

2. How to promote "partial" solutions (like these current facemasks) even though we know that when chips turn to chunks in the blink of an eye the item promoted won't do what we said it "might" help do.

3. How to responsibly promote woodturning and expand its acceptance as the pursuit that we on this board know and love when to do so seems to invite people to put themselves in serious harm's way.

4. With far more readers (guests) than posters (members) on this forum, how should we conduct our discussions on turning safety? Most comments and opinions expressed here are anecdotal rather than backed up with hard scientific evidence. The capacity to lead others astray on this forum is pretty substantial.

For instance, Odie proposes to do some experimenting with faceshield variations, but to have valid results that readers and forum members can or should rely on, he'd need a fully equipped testing lab, a great deal of spare time, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to conduct that kind of an effort. If he does his limited home-shop experiments and comes back with his honest conclusions, do his results amount to mere opinions that will not stand up to being examined from different points of view? Do not other posters then have a duty to challenge his "results" since other readers might try to implement his recommendation and then get hurt anyway? Does that scenario dissuade him or others from even trying?

Our opinions here may well be honest and expressed in good faith, but they are, after all, only opinions rather than verified solutions that others can rely and act on. I'm not suggesting that we all have our comments proof-read by a team of lawyers before posting them, but care must be taken when advocating any kind of safety procedure or particular item of equipment. I recently spoke to a turner who approached a major manufacturer about developing a truly effective wearable shield for woodturning. Their response was that while it is a worthwhile effort, the limited potential market for the item would not support the very substantial costs involved in research and development.

Anyone out there want to be the next "SawStop Guy"?

 

[hockenbery]

Mark,
You make some good points. There is little concrete data. We have test labs for hurricane building codes that shoot 2x4s at windows and window protectors.
It should be possible to use one of these labs to shoot a 2x4 at some face shielded dummy's. We could use a potato canon if we could measure the velocity.

The AAW, some clubs and a few symposiums have created policies of shielding the audience and requiring demonstrators to wear face shields.

Many demonstrators including myself wear face shields while doing demos. This is relatively recent. Al Stirt was one who led by example. Odd as it may seem I was one who wore a face shield in my shop and did not wear one when doing demos. Many others did as I did because we could not be heard wearing a face shield. Al Stirt taught me how to lift the visor to speak in 2005. Also the headset microphones most demo venues have make it easy to be heard with the visor down.
So we can lead by example.

If all the beginners see face shields in use by accomplished turners they are going to wear face shields.
We just need to remind them a fCe shield does not create invincibility against large blocks and high speed.

Too many people of modest turning ability have lathes capable of turning large pieces at high velocity.
It is hard to tell people to turn within their skill set. You have to push your skill set to improve.
Pushing incrementally is much safer than taking leaps.

Al

 

[hockenbery]

Mark,
I have seen the saw stop demonstrated about 5 times standing next to the saw.
So far every test was with a hotdog that got a tiny nick
The demonstrators and the audience never once offered a finger.

 

[Rob Wallace]

Mark,
I have seen the saw stop demonstrated about 5 times standing next to the saw.
So far every test was with a hotdog that got a tiny nick
The demonstrators and the audience never once offered a finger.

I once asked a hotdog-holding sales rep who was live-demonstrating a SawStop if buns, sauerkraut, and mustard came with the saw if you bought it as part of the sale. He was not amused.

Rob

(BTW - I am very happy with the interest expressed by contributors and readers of this thread....it obviously is an important issue relevant to all woodturners. We will continue to work on it, as well as "face shield policy" for the AAW.)

 

[Mark Mandell]

We could use a potato canon if we could measure the velocity.

Or even a half-frozen chicken? I know a guy with a radar gun. Although he usually sits at the bottom of my hill on the way into town, I bet I could get him to share it.

Seriously, as I mentioned in response to Odie, the testing parameters on something like this call for some serious engineer/physicist types to be involved due to the complex variables involved. A product may be great in one scenario but utterly fail in the next. I clearly don't know enough to even begin to make a list, let alone design, what should be used in the design, tests, and development.

What we do know is that what we have now is woefully inadequate to protect turners. It's fine to give warnings, and teach safe practices to reduce the risk, but ultimately it correlates to the weather: "everybody talks about it, but nobody is ever able to do anything about it."

 

[Mark Mandell]

The demonstrators and the audience never once offered a finger.

I believe the inventor actually did that . . . once.

 

[Sergio Villa]

Mark,
I have seen the saw stop demonstrated about 5 times standing next to the saw.
So far every test was with a hotdog that got a tiny nick
The demonstrators and the audience never once offered a finger.

I can guarantee that it works. It was an evening, tired and the last cut. I cannot remember exactly how it happened but I touched the blade while my left little finger, perhaps going after the ripped woo. Laud noise, blade dropped, a small scratch on the finger. That was all.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I can guarantee that it works. It was an evening, tired and the last cut. I cannot remember exactly how it happened but I touched the blade while my left little finger, perhaps going after the ripped woo. Laud noise, blade dropped, a small scratch on the finger. That was all.

I have also seen the SawStop demo several times and it is quite attention getting. The blade is there and then it isn't. Seems like I heard the BANG after the fact. Oscar Meyer didn't even need a Band-Aid and by the time that you realized what happened, the show is already over. At one of the demos, they did serve hot dogs with the usual fixings. One guy said that he didn't need it because he hadn't had a tablesaw accident in 30 years (implying that somehow gave him immunity). Of all the comments that I heard from people at these demos, the most "interesting" was that the person said that they wouldn't get it because it ruined the saw blade. Sergio, since I have an opportunity to hear your perspective, are you unhappy that the blade was trashed? My guess is that since you still have your hand, you were able to reach for your billfold to pay for a new blade.

 

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

Mark,
I have seen the saw stop demonstrated about 5 times standing next to the saw.
So far every test was with a hotdog that got a tiny nick
The demonstrators and the audience never once offered a finger.

I too have seen the demo a number of times - and once - he used his finger. No bandaid needed, it was barely even noticeable where the blade hit.

I have also seen the SawStop demo several times and it is quite attention getting. The blade is there and then it isn't. Seems like I heard the BANG after the fact. Oscar Meyer didn't even need a Band-Aid and by the time that you realized what happened, the show is already over. At one of the demos, they did serve hot dogs with the usual fixings. One guy said that he didn't need it because he hadn't had a tablesaw accident in 30 years (implying that somehow gave him immunity). Of all the comments that I heard from people at these demos, the most "interesting" was that the person said that they wouldn't get it because it ruined the saw blade. Sergio, since I have an opportunity to hear your perspective, are you unhappy that the blade was trashed? My guess is that since you still have your hand, you were able to reach for your billfold to pay for a new blade.

one blade/cartridge combo is far cheaper than an ER copay...and then add in all the "other" expenses for a full-blow ER visit from this type injury - the blade/cartridge combo is peanuts.

 

[Sergio Villa]

When the accident happened I knew that I made a stupid move but everything happened so suddenly that I did not realized I cut myself. One drop of blood and no blade showed me what happened. Sent the brake cartridge to the Saw Stop and in a few days I had a new cartridge with the report from the analysis of the "black box" inside the brake: they were right, I touched the blade on its left side.
P.S. Removing the blade from the sunk assembly was easy only after I called them.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Points vs Questions

Mark,
You make some good points. There is little concrete data. We have test labs for hurricane building codes that shoot 2x4s at windows and window protectors.
It should be possible to use one of these labs to shoot a 2x4 at some face shielded dummy's.

I posed the questions, Al, not to make points but to attempt to kick the discussion here up a notch or two, and get more input from a wider portion of the people who visit this forum. I think it very important to hear from turners at all levels on how they would approach the issues and how they would like to see the AAW approach them. For instance, do we do a "driver's ed" kind of blood and gore presentation to attempt to scare people into safer methods or, at least, away from known risky behaviors? I don't hold out a lot of optimism for the effort, which is analogous to pushing water up-hill, but I think that current turners at all levels can have valuable input into formulating the approaches. The turner who gets hurt and says "If I'd only known how to avoid that . . ." is evidence of a failure. Whose failure I'm not prepared to specify.

BTW, with even a smallish tornado's wind able to ram a piece of straw straight through a 12" thick telephone pole, you see any chance of that dummy surviving a 2x4? I suspect that, until personal force fields are invented, anything we come up with in the way of "protective" headgear for turners is bound to fail when it's needed most.

 

[Gary Barone]

I have been hit with a face-shield on. lost two back teeth on left side it came out rolled up my arm hit my jaw it would have been allot worse without it on. I have been using a face-shield with safety glasses for about 5 years maybe more. I have seen people without one on giving demos and in wood turning magazines you have to wear something. I don't know what the best shield is? And I don't like to turn when people come to my shop things can go wrong when you least expect it. ( So what is the best face-shield )

 

[Mark Mandell]

One Source

I have been hit with a face-shield on. lost two back teeth on left side it came out rolled up my arm hit my jaw it would have been allot worse without it on. I have been using a face-shield with safety glasses for about 5 years maybe more. I have seen people without one on giving demos and in wood turning magazines you have to wear something. I don't know what the best shield is? And I don't like to turn when people come to my shop things can go wrong when you least expect it. ( So what is the best face-shield )

http://www.galls.com/max-pro-police-riot-helmet#.VBjntVckSJo

Thjere are, of course, others. Google "riot gear" and you'll find pages of them. The link is to one that meets the NIJ standards discussed in the thread below and in Lynn's article in the AAW Journal that Al Hockenbery linked to.

$103 is hardly a heavy price for a significant level of protection. Hell, I spent more than that on my last bowl gouge.

 

[Bill Boehme]

http://www.galls.com/max-pro-police-riot-helmet#.VBjntVckSJo
There are, of course, others. Google "riot gear" and you'll find pages of them. The link is to one that meets the NIJ standards discussed in the thread below and in Lynn's article in the AAW Journal that Al Hockenbery linked to.

$103 is hardly a heavy price for a significant level of protection. Hell, I spent more than that on my last bowl gouge.

Oops! Maybe not the best helmet to use as an example (check out the two reviews). Apparently, it is a clearance item and available only in 2X size. However, there are plenty other decent models.

Conservation of energy (in a perfectly elastic closed system) and conservation of momentum (in any closed system) are two laws of classical mechanics that are too significant to be ignored because they tell us something critically important about head mounted PPE -- first some definitions:

• classical mechanics - in other words Newtonian physics. There is no need to delve into Einstein's relativity or quantum mechanics
• conservation of energy in a perfectly elastic closed system - energy can't be either created or destroyed (even though we might wonder where it went). An elastic system is basically a frictionless system where mass is conserved (think of a hockey puck that hits your face guard and bounces off as opposed to you eating it).
• conservation of momentum - momentum (mass multiplied by velocity) cannot be created or destroyed. If you have ever played billiards, you are already aware of it. Think of a straight shot into a corner pocket -- the cue ball strikes the other ball and instantly stops while the other ball takes off at the same speed that the cue ball had before the collision. Any other shot that you make also demonstrates conservation of momentum.

In the billiards example, we could have three balls in a perfect line and all of the momentum would eventually be transferred to the last one in the line. If it isn't obvious yet, the woodturner's head is the last ball. Things aren't quite as bleak as this characterization might seem or else there would be no reason for choosing a riot helmet over a simple faceshield. I will try to find time tomorrow for more about the how and why of things. BUT, it still is essential to understand that anything that we attach to our head basically becomes a part of our head as far as momentum and energy are concerned. There is no mysterious physics defying property of any head mounted PPE that enables those devices to capture and hold energy. As they say, you can't fool Mother Nature, but she does allow some quid pro quo tradeoffs.

Let's be more realistic about the way that accidents happen. The nice neat head on condition if far less likely than the recently described situation by Gary Barone. It has been said many times that head mounted PPE is the last line of defense. Unfortunately, it seems to me that too much of the time, it is the only line of defense. At the very least, I believe that the following in the order listed should be part of the way that we protect ourselves:

1. Securely mount and balance the turning
2. Use a hard mount guard
3. Position yourself away from the most dangerous areas in the event that something comes off the lathe.
4. Wear adequate face, eye, and breathing protection.

Doing the first three takes a lot of burden off any needed miracles from our headgear.

Every type of headgear is designed for very specific conditions. None of those exactly match the full range of conditions that we encounter.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Oops! Maybe not the best helmet to use as an example (check out the two reviews). Apparently, it is a clearance item and available only in 2X size. However, there are plenty other decent models.

"OOPS" is right, I didn't look so closely before including the link. Thanks, Bill.

Conservation of energy (in a perfectly elastic closed system) and conservation of momentum (in any closed system) are two laws of classical mechanics that are too significant to be ignored because they tell us something critically important about head mounted PPE

My old physics teacher was right-on with his car wreck comment.

It has been said many times that head mounted PPE is the last line of defense. Unfortunately, it seems to me that too much of the time, it is the only line of defense. At the very least, I believe that the following in the order listed should be part of the way that we protect ourselves:

1. Securely mount and balance the turning
2. Use a hard mount guard
3. Position yourself away from the most dangerous areas in the event that something comes off the lathe.
4. Wear adequate face, eye, and breathing protection.

Doing the first three takes a lot of burden off any needed miracles from our headgear.

Every type of headgear is designed for very specific conditions. None of those exactly match the full range of conditions that we encounter.

And this needs to be said again, and AGAIN, AND AGAIN until it becomes "muscle memory" for turners.

I tried to grab a copy of the photo of Lynn Yamaguchi in the Journal article where she's turning with the lathe cage in place, her riot rig on, and the wood, known to have defects and cracks, wrapped in stretch wrap as she hollows the vessel.

Every turner needs to ask themself if they're willing to trade their life, their eye-sight or permanent bodily body, and a life of continuing pain for the "convenience" of doing this hobby without maximum protection from injury.

We may only need the protection once. Don't let it be the time when it's not being used. Calling it the "Kill Zone" is not for a lack of better words.

 

[hockenbery]

Add proper speed to the list too.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Add proper speed to the list too.

Thanks, Al. I'm sure there are some other things that we need to do. I also thought about listening to the sound. Usually, but not always, there will be a sound change if there is a crack or loose piece. We shouldn't ignore a warning sign like that.

 

[Odie]

Thanks, Al. I'm sure there are some other things that we need to do. I also thought about listening to the sound. Usually, but not always, there will be a sound change if there is a crack or loose piece. We shouldn't ignore a warning sign like that.

I have heard this sound on occasion, and it usually sounds like "tick, tick, tick, tick". When you hear that, hit the stop button.....fast!

Use sight, sound and feel. We also stimulate smell and taste during the act of woodturning, but I don't think these senses are a safety indicator......

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Sounds

"Tick-tick-tick" can mean more than a crack.

There I was, all set to turn this honkin' Sycamore log into a 24" sphere

when what do my wee ears detect but a tic-tick-TIC as the gouge is working toward the top of the log. Kill switch time and lets take a close look. The search quickly reveals the glint of metal. "Ah," sez I, "a nail. We'll just dig around a bit and pull it out." Several hours later I retrieved the buried treasure, a 10" length of 3/4" steel anchor rod that was bent into a "V' and left in the tree about 20 years ago. "Rats. There goes my 24" globe." But the hunk was displaying really nice spalting and grain so I pressed on and salvaged an 18" piece

However, forewarned is forearmed, and the hollowing, promising to be an adventure,
didn't disappoint as not less than 15 post'em nails were carefully removed while removing the guts, each signaling its presence by that telltale "tic".