Phyrography Machine Opinions

[Bill Boehme]

Detail Master

Has anybody tried ordering anything from Detail Master lately? I need some custom tips and have been trying to contact them without success.

 

[Odie]

My first attempt using the Burnmaster handle with the Detail Master adaptor.......

So far, so good......The Burnmaster handle seems to be better for not becoming as hot.

ooc

 

[john lucas]

Odis. Looks like your using too much heat and pressing too hard. I find a really delicate touch with less heat makes the lines cleaner. Over all it looks pretty good but with practice will get better

 

[Odie]

Odis. Looks like your using too much heat and pressing too hard. I find a really delicate touch with less heat makes the lines cleaner. Over all it looks pretty good but with practice will get better

Could be, John......it's not something I do very often, and I do it for free for those I know personally. Xe and his wife are friends of mine, and they loved it. I haven't done one for a few years, so that gives an idea on how much "practice" I'm getting!

Can you show some examples of your writing?

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

Right now I am working on the rim of a 12½" Navajo wedding basket style turning. If I ever manage to get the flat fish scale style pen from Detail Master, I can get started on the rest of the basket. It was supposed to be ready for a gallery show in December, but it is now clear that I won't be able to finish it in time for that event. Anyway, here is a close up of some of the rim detail. John Lucas is right ... using these pens requires a fine touch and low heat. I used a setting of 2½ to 3 for most of the burning shown below.

 

[Tim L]

I think it looks great Odie, better than I could do.
Tim.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Right now I am working on the rim of a 12½" Navajo wedding basket style turning. If I ever manage to get the flat fish scale style pen from Detail Master, I can get started on the rest of the basket. It was supposed to be ready for a gallery show in December, but it is now clear that I won't be able to finish it in time for that event. Anyway, here is a close up of some of the rim detail. John Lucas is right ... using these pens requires a fine touch and low heat. I used a setting of 2½ to 3 for most of the burning shown below.

View attachment 7896

Bill is the texture burn marks on the braid an extra step or just a result of burning the lines in? Very interesting project. Maybe show a little PIP?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill is the texture burn marks on the braid an extra step or just a result of burning the lines in? Very interesting project. Maybe show a little PIP?

Gerald, every thing done was deliberate. Some of what you see is called "shading" which is a way of creating three dimensional texture through the use of shadows and light. If I were to only do the outlines of the reeds, it would look flat and unrealistic. I also added fine lines to give some additional texture to the reeds. Here is a close up that shows things more clearly.

 

[Odie]

I think it looks great Odie, better than I could do.
Tim.

Thanks Tim....

John and Bill are certainly correct that I have room for improvement. I'm thinking along the terms of even higher heat settings than I was using.....rather than lower heat. A more perfect line is probably possible with lower heat and slower movement, but there comes a point where the aesthetic appeal of quicker, more flowing lines lose a more individualistic visual appeal. Speed.....can that be achieved, and look good, too? I don't have the answer to that, but I'm one who tends to look for answers outside of main stream thought.......😛

ooc

 

[john lucas]

Odie. Won't be home where I can post things from my computer for a few more days yet. Since meeting Cynthia Gibson and learning about lower heat I have become a convert. The problem with higher heat is it burns the softer wood too easily and shows up as little balls in what should be a smooth straight line. In theory you would move fast through these soft areas and slow down on the hard areas to create a smooth line but its almost impossible to do. Lower heat makes it much easier to control.
Also the recovery time of the unit has a lot to do with controlling the "blobbing" affect. I could never sign my name without that ball burning affect when I had the cheap cole wood burner. I purchased the Optima and had far better success. When you put the pen to the wood it a sorbs heat from
The tip and the burner has to add power to the pen to get the heat back. The less expensive units do this slower so it creates those little burn blobs. Using higher heat and excessive pen pressure does the same thing.
I'm certainly no expert here and have a long ways to go to get to the level
Of the pyrography artists but I'm trying hard to learn

 

[Odie]

Odie. Won't be home where I can post things from my computer for a few more days yet. Since meeting Cynthia Gibson and learning about lower heat I have become a convert. The problem with higher heat is it burns the softer wood too easily and shows up as little balls in what should be a smooth straight line. In theory you would move fast through these soft areas and slow down on the hard areas to create a smooth line but its almost impossible to do. Lower heat makes it much easier to control.
Also the recovery time of the unit has a lot to do with controlling the "blobbing" affect. I could never sign my name without that ball burning affect when I had the cheap cole wood burner. I purchased the Optima and had far better success. When you put the pen to the wood it a sorbs heat from
The tip and the burner has to add power to the pen to get the heat back. The less expensive units do this slower so it creates those little burn blobs. Using higher heat and excessive pen pressure does the same thing.
I'm certainly no expert here and have a long ways to go to get to the level
Of the pyrography artists but I'm trying hard to learn

I'd like to see some nice flowing handwriting done slowly. Personally, I have my doubts it can be done, without a loss in what can only be described as a visual appeal of handwriting style. For decorative burning, I can surely see the benefit of "slow and deliberate" for getting nicely done detail. I'm hoping to find a way to achieve a graceful flow of lines.....something that appears can be had no other way than with "penmanship". I don't know if it can be done, and even if I do find a way to do that, it may not be a useful thing in my usual pursuit of bowl turning art.

My mother was a grade school teacher for 40+ years, and she developed a way to print as fast, or faster than anyone else could write in cursive.....and, it's her style of printing done with a woodburning pen that I'd like to be able to do. You could, of course, do this slow and deliberately, and have perfection in the lettering.....but, it would be missing that certain "style" that my mother had.

Personally, I feel what I did the other day is bordering on what I'm looking for....even with some imperfections. I agree that it can be done better, but I want that "hand written" feeling about it to remain a part of the theme.

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

Gerald, every thing done was deliberate. Some of what you see is called "shading" which is a way of creating three dimensional texture through the use of shadows and light. If I were to only do the outlines of the reeds, it would look flat and unrealistic. I also added fine lines to give some additional texture to the reeds. Here is a close up that shows things more clearly. <img src="http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7897"/>

Bill that is a great use of color to add depth?

It does not appear to go quickly. It really looks woven!

Thanks for sharing,
Al

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Gerald, every thing done was deliberate. Some of what you see is called "shading" which is a way of creating three dimensional texture through the use of shadows and light. If I were to only do the outlines of the reeds, it would look flat and unrealistic. I also added fine lines to give some additional texture to the reeds. Here is a close up that shows things more clearly.

View attachment 7897

Thanks for the explanation. You are giving me ideas

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'd like to see some nice flowing handwriting done slowly.

Odie, it seems that your style of burning is to get a deep penetration sort of like the results of using a branding iron.

John is right about the difference in hardness between early and late wood and the resulting problems when using high heat. The early wood almost catches on fire while the late wood behaves like a firewall. The higher the heat, the more pronounced the problem. Earlier in this thread, I outlined the procedure that I use when writing. Actually, it is not done slowly -- it is done at almost the same speed as writing with a ball point pen. The difference is that it looks like writing with a dark brown pen and not much penetration to the burn. This isn't what you are looking for, but I thought that I would give you another perspective on writing with a burner.

 

[Odie]

Odie, it seems that your style of burning is to get a deep penetration sort of like the results of using a branding iron.

John is right about the difference in hardness between early and late wood and the resulting problems when using high heat. The early wood almost catches on fire while the late wood behaves like a firewall. The higher the heat, the more pronounced the problem. Earlier in this thread, I outlined the procedure that I use when writing. Actually, it is not done slowly -- it is done at almost the same speed as writing with a ball point pen. The difference is that it looks like writing with a dark brown pen and not much penetration to the burn. This isn't what you are looking for, but I thought that I would give you another perspective on writing with a burner.

Howdy Bill......

Yes, you got it! I want a nice solid black line, using a style of lettering borrowed from my Mother. I want it to have the look of hand-done, and that can only be had by a smooth flow of the pen. I know exactly what you and John are describing, but I'm also holding out for a solution, rather than taking someone else's advice that it won't work. It's possible I won't be able to overcome the difficulties.....and, if that happens, you and John are welcome to give me the "I told you so" treatment! 😛

I haven't gone back to lettering, as of yet, but will do it eventually. (I have so many projects going on, that I'm feeling overwhelmed at times!) Anyway, I have an idea that if high heat is used along with no, none, zip, zero, nada downward pressure, the problems with softer/harder grain could be overcome. Now, this does present some problems, but I've got the idea that some mechanical means of stability could cross that bridge.......

Don't know.......but, for now, I'm on to other things.......😀

ooc

 

[Dale Miner]

Howdy Bill......

Yes, you got it! I want a nice solid black line, using a style of lettering borrowed from my Mother. I want it to have the look of hand-done, and that can only be had by a smooth flow of the pen. I know exactly what you and John are describing, but I'm also holding out for a solution, rather than taking someone else's advice that it won't work. It's possible I won't be able to overcome the difficulties.....and, if that happens, you and John are welcome to give me the "I told you so" treatment! 😛

I haven't gone back to lettering, as of yet, but will do it eventually. (I have so many projects going on, that I'm feeling overwhelmed at times!) Anyway, I have an idea that if high heat is used along with no, none, zip, zero, nada downward pressure, the problems with softer/harder grain could be overcome. Now, this does present some problems, but I've got the idea that some mechanical means of stability could cross that bridge.......

Don't know.......but, for now, I'm on to other things.......😀

ooc

Methinks it is a bit like hand chased threads; The wood has a lot to do with the results. A hard diffuse porous wood that lacks a pronounced early wood/ late wood grain works best.

Woods easily available in North America that come to mind are apple, pear, hawthorne, and hard maple. I have done some pyro on all the above except hawthorne, with pear and apple being about equal with maple bringing up the rear.

 

[Jerry Bailey]

I'd like to see some nice flowing handwriting done slowly. Personally, I have my doubts it can be done, without a loss in what can only be described as a visual appeal of handwriting style.
ooc

Odie, as others above have stated, to get the nice flowing style, you should use lower heat settings, depending on type/hardness of wood, anywhere from 3-5, and maybe a small 1/16" ball tip

Below are some writing I've been practicing with, granted it's not the scripting you're referring to
but it's all burned on Oak, with a heat setting of 3 ( I use the dual pen Optima 1 burner)

 

[Bill Boehme]

There's an electric fence analogy that comes to mind. 🙄

You will discover that the notion of controlling pen pressure as a means of solving the problem is a red herring. The problem is related to the difference in hardness (and flammability) between early and late wood. Low heat minimizes the difference and high heat combined with a supposed faster writing speed will set fire to the early wood while hardly putting a mark in the late wood. But, don't let me dissuade you ... the fence is waiting.... 🙂

 

[Odie]

There's an electric fence analogy that comes to mind. 🙄

You will discover that the notion of controlling pen pressure as a means of solving the problem is a red herring. The problem is related to the difference in hardness (and flammability) between early and late wood. Low heat minimizes the difference and high heat combined with a supposed faster writing speed will set fire to the early wood while hardly putting a mark in the late wood. But, don't let me dissuade you ... the fence is waiting.... 🙂

Maybe I didn't explain well enough for you, Bill and Jerry.....

When I say " no, none, zip, zero, nada downward pressure", that's exactly what I meant. I'm going to attempt something that will not allow the pen to follow the hardness of the wood grain......meaning the pen will maintain a constant height while crossing the grain. I have an idea how this might be done........

ooc

BTW: Jerry.....That is some mighty fine looking lettering, and it's obviously done very slow and meticulously.......but, not my objective.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Maybe I didn't explain well enough for you, Bill and Jerry.....

When I say " no, none, zip, zero, nada downward pressure", that's exactly what I meant. I'm going to attempt something that will not allow the pen to follow the hardness of the wood grain......meaning the pen will maintain a constant height .....

Then, I did understand precisely what you meant .... but, you're still hoping anyway. The good news is that the best education is the one that you pay for with blood, sweat, and tears.

BTW, you are not unique ... Most of us have to learn the hard way when it comes to burning.

I think it was John who suggested some types of wood that are better for burning which do not have much if any distinction between early and late wood. Those will give you the best chance for good results. The other essential thing that you will need is a very well controlled pen speed -- a bit too fast or slow can make a big difference in the results.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

i notice that some of the main burners do the same burn type, the vessel just changes, repetition does improve ones burn

 

[Odie]

Then, I did understand precisely what you meant .... but, you're still hoping anyway. The good news is that the best education is the one that you pay for with blood, sweat, and tears.

BTW, you are not unique ... Most of us have to learn the hard way when it comes to burning.

I think it was John who suggested some types of wood that are better for burning which do not have much if any distinction between early and late wood. Those will give you the best chance for good results. The other essential thing that you will need is a very well controlled pen speed -- a bit too fast or slow can make a big difference in the results.

No, not at all, Bill......

You are right about one thing.....the best lesson is that which I give myself. This is one of the main reasons why I am thankful that I turned for over 20 years before I communicated with any other turners for the first time. It is that lack of influence that is the main reason why my turning methods are so different from the "herd"......and, the only thing that really matters, is results.

ooc

 

[Odie]

This is the first attempt using the pvc modified Detail Master pen. I was able to go for a longer time without stopping to cool the pen.....I'd say about 20-30 minutes. It was getting a little too hot in the end. I was done by the time it was getting too uncomfortable to go on. Suspect it could have been cooled fairly rapidly with a blast of air. When I was nearly finished, I felt the exposed pen butt end and it was much hotter than I could have stood without the pvc modification.......so, I guess you could say this modificaton was a success.....yay!

This 11 x 4 salad bowl is maple, and the pen work was done quickly.....so quickly that I overran some of the lines. That's fine, because I'm wanting a "hand made" look to it.....not trying for perfection. My goal is using the pen fairly quickly, and still have a nice home-made look to it.

Have not tried more lettering yet, but feeling confident that more experience with this will reap some benefits....even with the problematic issues associated with hand lettering done quickly. I think the best thing to do, is use wood species that are prone to doing well with lettering....and, forget the rest.

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

... It was getting a little too hot in the end. I was done by the time it was getting too uncomfortable to go on.....

So, were you well done, medium, or rare? 😀

Looks pretty good. I use a light blue lead pencil to draw the lines before I burn. The burning usually obliterates the pencil lines and if not, a white eraser will take care of removing them. The reason that I do not use a regular pencil is that the lead contains graphite and as you probably know, the more that you try to remove graphite, the more that it gets smeared into the pores of the wood. I've tried various other colors, but blue seems to be the most visible and also the easiest to remove.

 

[Odie]

So, were you well done, medium, or rare? 😀

Looks pretty good. I use a light blue lead pencil to draw the lines before I burn. The burning usually obliterates the pencil lines and if not, a white eraser will take care of removing them. The reason that I do not use a regular pencil is that the lead contains graphite and as you probably know, the more that you try to remove graphite, the more that it gets smeared into the pores of the wood. I've tried various other colors, but blue seems to be the most visible and also the easiest to remove.

Yeah, Bill....About medium, I'd say! 😀 Heh,heh,heh......yessir, it was getting hot in the end, there. Didn't think of giving it a blast of air until I was done, but I'll remember to give that a try.

No, I didn't know that....used a regular No2 lead pencil, very lightly. After it was done, I used 600gt paper to remove the lead and charred residue. The surrounding surface was already sanded to 600gt. I'll have to look again, but I didn't notice any graphite in the pores......but, thanks for the sensible advice. I'll remember to use something else next time. I have some red pencils.....don't think they have graphite, but will check. The red pencils have a kind of waxy consistency to them. (worse than graphite.....?)

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

Very light marks with a graphite pencil should be OK. The big problem is with heavy lines and then handling the piece and smudging the lines. It can make a mess on light colored wood. The blue pencil that I use is called "Non-Photo Blue". It is a light blue that was originally made for marking up documents that were going to be copied on a Xerox machine. The machine was designed to not pick up that particular color. When I retired, I had a couple of those pencils in my desk so they went home with me. I suspect that copy machines aren't needed very much these days. A red pencil might be OK on light wood, but I suspect that the red would be hard to see on brown wood.

 

[Odie]

Very light marks with a graphite pencil should be OK. The big problem is with heavy lines and then handling the piece and smudging the lines. It can make a mess on light colored wood. The blue pencil that I use is called "Non-Photo Blue". It is a light blue that was originally made for marking up documents that were going to be copied on a Xerox machine. The machine was designed to not pick up that particular color. When I retired, I had a couple of those pencils in my desk so they went home with me. I suspect that copy machines aren't needed very much these days. A red pencil might be OK on light wood, but I suspect that the red would be hard to see on brown wood.

For dark colored wood, the solution will be to use a white charcoal pencil, available at an art supply. I'm using these for marking dark woods just prior to applying anchorseal. The ebony pencil is what I use to mark light colored wood.....(just an explanation of the photo. ebony pencil would probably be a disaster for the purpose here)

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

The best thing I have found for laying out patterns for carving and burning are water color pencils.
They are soft and won't make a groove or leave residue like graphite. Mark's come off with a damp or wet cloth.

If you want to change the pattern or miss a line by a little the water color comes off easily.
No groove no mess. Sharpening can leave a fairly fine line.

 

[john lucas]

Very nice burning on the bowl Odie. I use a soft lead artist pencil to lay out designs if I don't use carbon paper. You can remove pencil lines and also any "bloom" from the burnings by wiping them with alcohol. Bloom is what I refer to as the little brown area that will often burn outside the lines when using hotter temperatures or sometimes when burning the soft areas of the summer wood.

 

[Bill Boehme]

John, it sounds like the bloom that you are talking about would be the resin that boils to the surface. The resin can be useful if you are dyeing the wood with art pens in the style of David Nittmann or Jim Adkins. The resin that has "cooked" acts as a barrier to keep the dye from bleeding outside of the lines. If necessary, it can be lightly sanded with P400 before dyeing. The alcohol cleaning sounds like a great idea if you won't be coloring the wood. Instead of the hardware store ethanol, you might try 91% isopropyl alcohol. I used to have 99% isopropinol, but now I can't find it anywhere.

 

[Patrick Crumpton]

For seriously long days of burning Kiwi Robbie Graham wrote an excellent article awhile back on an active air cooled burning pen but I am usually ready for a break before the equipment gets to hot to handle.

I am interest in reading the article. Will you please provide the publication information?

Thanks!

 

[idahohay]

This thread has become a good reference on burning machines.

Another point I didn't see reference to is the stiffness of the wire from the unit to the pen. Although Burnmaster supplies adapters to use more delicate pens like Razortip, the cord is so stiff it is detrimental to fine pen control. Maybe not an issue for branding.

Limp, soft cord of the minimum gauge required for the tip is easiest to get along with.

Also pens using a cord that is removable makes it possible to store probably all the pens you ever need in a small tin can but pens with built in cords take up lots of space.

 

[Bill Boehme]

This thread has become a good reference on burning machines.

Another point I didn't see reference to is the stiffness of the wire from the unit to the pen. Although Burnmaster supplies adapters to use more delicate pens like Razortip, the cord is so stiff it is detrimental to fine pen control. Maybe not an issue for branding.

Limp, soft cord of the minimum gauge required for the tip is easiest to get along with.

Also pens using a cord that is removable makes it possible to store probably all the pens you ever need in a small tin can but pens with built in cords take up lots of space.

The voltage is low, but the current is high and this means that the best design would be to minimize the use of plug and jack type of mechanical connections. The reason is that the contact area is small in the typical plugs and jacks commonly used on these pens ... what are known as quarter inch phone plugs because their original use was in telephone switchboards ... and phono plugs (often called RCA plugs) because their original use was in RCA Victor record playing machines (AKA phonographs for the benefit of any younger folks here). They have found widespread use because they are small and low cost.

The tips used on Detail Master pens aren't wires ... well they might have started out as large wires that have been flattened and formed to produce all the various shaped tips. I think that they have the best pens and tips available, however, it is a pity that they are so unresponsive to any and all means of trying to contact them. Several dealers have dropped them because of this.