Ornamental Turning Forum

[Mike Harman]

I have only just noticed this site and must say that I am delighted . I have been interested in ornamental turning for many years and have built all sorts of attachments to my lathes some worked but most didnt work well.
Many years ago one of my daughters gave me L.E.Burgerons book on wood turning. For those of you that do not know about him he was the Belgium Court official turner. and would only turn two objects a year after designing the tools etc to turn it with .Any way once i had this book I was able to modify my lathe to take certain attachments. as Bergeron had his lathe was not sophisticated in any way but the main thing he had attached was a cross slide that had degrees marked on it. you can find out all about his lathe and the pattern he made on the net. I used a sewing machine motor to drive my cutting head. and when I sold my old lathe I removed all the attachments. and some how misplaced a few so will have to remake them to attach to my new lathe eventually.
It is an intersting hobby that has kept me going for many years and I would like to think that there are alot more turners out there that give it a go you do not need alot of money just a bit of brain power to succeed
Mike

 

[RichColvin]

Mike, I'd love to see pictures of what you made.

 

[Mike Harman]

Hi Rich
I would love to be able to show you the pictures of my creations but all my photos and alot of my tools were destroyed in a fire ten years ago that destroyed my and our sons automotive workshop along with 16 cars and most of my other stuff as I had it stored there while my wife and I spent four years touring the south Island after i retired. it broke my heart and I have only recently returned to really spending time turning and doing other stuff I have built a shed 12ft x 8 ft as a new workshop and have installed all my tools in it I have another interest and that is fully restoring very old lathes and I have three of these the oldest being 126 years old and my new wood lathe that is a short bed and variable speed with reverse which I am working on to put the attachments on as I re make them. I like to make all my tools etc as I think that this is part of the journey
In my shed I have my wood lathe , myforf enginerering lathe a mill that I made two band saws one of which I made from ply and the suspension from a car a table saw , drill press ,scroll saw and a work bench all these are around the sides and just fit giving me plenty of room to work I will try to get some decent photos then get my wife to help me put them up on here. as my computor skills are not that great at doing this.
well Rich I am pleased to be a part of this group and really enjoy reading what member are doing and offering some of my humble wisdom that I have accumulated over 50 years in the timber or wood industry.
Cheers Mike

 

[RichColvin]

Mike,

Your loss is terrible. I’m glad you didn’t give up on turning. And welcome to the group!

Rich

 

[Mike Harman]

Thanks Rich yes it was touigh but finally getting my new shed has been great .

 

[Jeff Hankinson]

Great discussion and I also say Amen to Jon's comments. I love wood turning since it is a hobby with depth. I decided to start embellishing some of my pieces. Doing it by hand is much too time consuming for me. Exploring the worlds of CNC and OT is a great project.

I view a 'CNC' machine like any other tool = a means to an end. I understand the whole mechanical complexity appeal of traditional OT and bless the hearts and patience of the people who create stuff that way. The nearest MDF lathe to me is about 60 miles away and that person really doesn't know how to use it. Otherwise the nearest OT lathes are many hundreds or thousands of miles away, along with the people who know how to use them. This is not a reasonable option for me.

I was tempted to make an MDF Rose engine but I found Bill Ooms' COrnlathe program first ha ha. Since I was already exploring using a hobby CNC to assist with laser embellishing, I set about finding a path to successful use of Bill's program. To that end I have come up with two solutions:

The first was using a hobby CNC I built. Using Grblgru I can easily digitize the objects I turn for design purposes. I can use that file directly in Grblgru, or export it to COrnlathe. I eventually created a special 5th axis to help keep my tools at 90 degrees or 'normal' to the work surface. It has the bonus of being Very easy to make and program for, unlike the many trunnion type 5th axes you see. After showing a demonstration of my goal to the author of Grblgru - a free grbl CNC control program - he was kind enough to add the proper mathematics to the B axis motions. This approach works for any design I might find on the Internet or create in a design program. His program will also run the Gcode I can make with COrnlathe but not with 5 axes. I can apply designs with a router, laser, diamond engraver, or pen.

I can also use Guillochograph = a free design program for Guilloche patterns.

I can use Geofun = a free design program for Spirograph-like patterns.

The second approach I developed last summer. I adapted a small metal (or engineers) lathe for OT work. 3 steppers, belts, pulleys, some electronics and a simple text edit of Gcode and I am easily in business with COrnlathe. This has proved to be a much simpler way of exploring OT. I can use the metal lathe as it was intended too. I still have to create some more of the tools, holders, and cutters needed but that will come in time.

Bill's program COrnlathe has all of the traditional rosettes and cutters, as well as the possibility of designing more. I can use any type of cutter or drill, and most methods of applying OT patterns to a surface. I can visualize the piece beforehand. I can change any variables involved. This allows the exploration of many many design possibilities before committing them to wood. I enjoy watching demonstrations of traditional designs and equipment on various Zoom and YouTube presentations. It is relatively easy to recreate the patterns in COrnlathe.

For example. Rich Colvin has a YouTube demo of cutting a typical basket weave type pattern on his MDF lathe. After seeing how it was done, I recreated the means of doing it as well as a couple variants in about 30 minutes. Similarly I saw a different style of basket weave pattern in a recent Zoom session of OTI and was able to recreate that in about 20 minutes. I can generate the GCode necessary to run my adapted lathe in a couple minutes and proceed to test it on cheap poplar dowels. If I like it I use it. If it needs a little tweaking, it is easy to do.

COrnlathe is available on Github for free. Bills original version is for Macs. I posted COrnlathe-for-Windows there too. Just search Github for COrnlathe.
Guillochograph is available on the web. Its author made it free to use a few years ago - don't follow any of the links in the manual since they've been hacked.
Geofun is also available on the web.

I really appreciate the generosity of the authors of these programs making them free for hobby people to use. I post some of my explorations on YouTube = Embellished Turnings.
As I learn I will post some more just for fun and to promote the world of OT designs on wood turnings. Cheers.

 

[Mike Harman]

Hi Jeff
That is a great story of how you achieved your end goal. I agree with you about CNC and old school turning. Even though I prefer to do my work old school I see nothing wrong with someone using modern machines and methods
I was interested to see that you are using an old engineers lathe as one of my hobbies is restoring lathes especially engineers lathes of which I have three that I have restored, and have thought of using one for OT turning.
The lathe that I thought of using is a Drummond round bed that is over 100 years old and now in perfect condition. as this lathe has a round bed that the cross slide and the tail stock can be rotated around the bed it would be very easy to mount a cutter for OT work. as all the cranks work the same.
The attachments that I am building for my wood lathe to do OT work on have been on the back burner for awhile due to other things and ill health but I hope to get back out to my shed soon.
Keep us informed on how your turmings go with the lathe and CNC machine that you have built.
Cheers Mike

 

[Richard Kuivila]

Ornamental turning is a bit of a niche, but is certainly a part of the overall woodturning community. It is typically done on a rose engine lathe, but as David Springett showed in his book, "Woodturning Wizardry", great pieces can be made without such a machine.

This forum was established to facilitate questions from those who have an interest in ornamental turning.

The hardest part is trying to learn how to make OT happen. the visualizing, planning and set up does NOT become obvious to me.
I don't think in three dimensions very well and then add motion to it .....Ugh ! (I got straight A's in Plane Geometry, not even close in Solid Geometry)
I watch a lot of OT online, but they've already planned and set it up. Fun to watch/read though.
Is there a "How To" aimed at 3rd graders ?
Any suggestions/recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
Richard K.
----------------------------

 

[Richard Kuivila]

Some interesting comments and opinions here.

I should clarify that when I introduced Doug as being from "The Dark Side" back at the OTI symposium in 2004, it was mostly in jest, because he was doing some really clever stuff back then, way over the heads of most people looking at it, transforming and scaling what to most people would look like "traditional" ornamental turning patterns, but created on his CNC mill (a HAAS VF2 at the time IIRC?). I thought what he was doing was ground breaking. But I also knew people would deride and dismiss it because, "...it was made on a machine." At that same time some other highly respected "artists" were also dabbling in computer controlled machines to produce art. I have a few pieces in my personal collection from those "early days".

A lot of times I describe ornamental turning as "geometric carving", and I have encountered many turners who dismiss it because the pieces aren't "hand turned", or the rose engine patterns "come from cams". Regardless, practitioners have been producing very artistic pieces through the centuries using various complex devices, and almost always in conjunction with "hand turning" to complete an object.

Coincidentally it was almost exactly a year ago, I was answering a question and trying to describe the stepper motor controller that a few of us have been collaborating on, that I said,...

"It is about automating the tedium, not eliminating the user as the artist."

My personal design process almost always involves drawing an object out, whether pencil and paper, or CAD. Then using that drawing to create the object. In my demos and talks I often use a couple old CAD drawings to illustrate how you can "layout" adjacent cuts, to get a desired shape. Attached is an excerpt from a demo handout I use to illustrate a "faceting technique" to create convex curves.

So the question, which quickly turns into a debate, is what happens if a computer moves the tool or a user / artist moves the tool? Evoking the age old queries, "Is it still art?" or, "What is art?"

Take note that two "artists" have been featured on covers of American Woodturner, both highlighting pieces "turned" using CNC. Is their work still art? I'd say so, since bidders at the AAW auction have voted with their wallets and bought pieces by both of them (Dewey Garret and Bill Ooms).

I will say history tends to repeat itself, whether it was the Luddites burning down cotton and wollen mills, or turners debating if painting, carving or burning is still "turning" or "art"?

In my opinion, tools are tools, and artists are artists. Artists use tools to create their works of art. Their "arsenals" may include welders, lathes, drill presses, routers, air brushes, rotary carvers, hammers, pneumatic grinders, sliding compound miter saws, jigs, bandsaws, and even, god forbid, computer controlled tools.

That said, the distinction I try to use when people confuse CNC with other techniques, is that most CNC machines require the user (artist?) to design their object ahead of time on a "design computer", traditionally using CAD (computer aided design) software, and then make that object using a machine controlled by another computer, which in the case of contemporary CNC machines means executing "g-code" on the controller for the machine (regardless of whether it is a lathe, router, mill, plasma torch or other CNC machine).

What many people don't realize is that design software has been going through a revolution in the last few years, and many newer design applications are much more "sculptural" or artistic in their approach to designing objects that will still be cut by a machine with a CNC controller. To my mind there is a very blurry line today between artistic creations and machine made objects, and I expect that to get blurrier as time marches on.

Creating beautiful objects is an artistic and expressive process. The tools that anyone choses to use to execute their perfect piece should have nothing to do with whether the end result is "art". As the old saying goes, art is in the eye of the beholder, and if the beholder thinks it is beautiful, they probably don't care what "tools" were used to create it.

For what it is worth, that is my humble opinion,

--Jon

YES, "What many people don't realize is that design software has been going through a revolution in the last few years". My widows 10 is awful ! I reinstalled and it erased ALL of my Applications ! $$$$. No OT for a while now.....

 

[RichColvin]

The hardest part is trying to learn how to make OT happen. the visualizing, planning and set up does NOT become obvious to me.
I don't think in three dimensions very well and then add motion to it .....Ugh ! (I got straight A's in Plane Geometry, not even close in Solid Geometry)
I watch a lot of OT online, but they've already planned and set it up. Fun to watch/read though.
Is there a "How To" aimed at 3rd graders ?
Any suggestions/recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
Richard K.
----------------------------

Richard, you ask a question for which there is no easy answer: The difficulty is in the way people learn. What I find works well for me are:

1. Sometimes I copy works done by other greats (to learn, not to plagiarize their work), and then look at what I can take from that to develop my own style. If nothing else, I learn new techniques or processes.
2. Sometimes, I try things to see what can be done. As an example, I made a whole series of finials with different shapes. Those experiments taught me a lot. And each was documented to enable repeating later.
3. I also made a series of paper drawings of each rosette‘s output. These and other experiments make great references.

A lot of this boils down to, “what happens if I try this?”

Others have told me they enjoy what I call the riddle approach. They are presented with a possibility and try to figure out how it was made. Holtzapffel’s Turning and Mechanical Manipulation, volume 5: The Principles and Practice of Ornamental or Complex Turning gives some such great examples.

Still others want to attend a class and be taught in person.

I wish that the answer were easier.

 

[Mike Harman]

Hi Richard When I got into OT years ago it was a fly by the pants so to speak I had no idea how toachieve the end result I usedan engineers lathe that worked to a degree but still woudnt do what I wanted.
I then discovered L.E.Bergerons work about 25years ago. Well that was the answer to me in his book there are lots of drawings and pictures of the tools that he made and his lathes etc. he also documented very well in diagrams how to achieve the results. all of his lathes etc wer very rudamentary and this is what I am trying to replicate.
Look him up on the net and see if that helps you understand the 3D that you are talking about.
I am fortunate that i am able to draw in 3D any way good luck and keep persevering
Cheers Mike.

 

[Richard Kuivila]

Richard, you ask a question for which there is no easy answer: The difficulty is in the way people learn. What I find works well for me are:

1. Sometimes I copy works done by other greats (to learn, not to plagiarize their work), and then look at what I can take from that to develop my own style. If nothing else, I learn new techniques or processes.
2. Sometimes, I try things to see what can be done. As an example, I made a whole series of finials with different shapes. Those experiments taught me a lot. And each was documented to enable repeating later.
3. I also made a series of paper drawings of each rosette‘s output. These and other experiments make great references.

A lot of this boils down to, “what happens if I try this?”

Others have told me they enjoy what I call the riddle approach. They are presented with a possibility and try to figure out how it was made. Holtzapffel’s Turning and Mechanical Manipulation, volume 5: The Principles and Practice of Ornamental or Complex Turning gives some such great examples.

Still others want to attend a class and be taught in person.

I wish that the answer were easier.

Rich: Thank you for your response, all are good. The best one is “what happens if I try this?”
Small steps, one at a time and make a LOT of fancy fire wood !
Richard K.

 

[Curt George]

I have a Mandala Rose Engine and have been very happy with it. I went to an OTI Symposium in Ohio years back and got a clear impression that if you didn't own a 25 to 150 thousand dollar machine you were not, how can I say it, in the mainstream.

Hello. I agree with your comments, I own a Legacy ornamental mill. (a machine that I truly love to use.) but most OT people just snub me when I start asking questions, Its almost like the are thinking, Since I don't own that 50K machine it cant understand...? This may be true?(I guess?) but I would very much like to learn more on the topics.

 

[Kirk Yarina]

Hello. I agree with your comments, I own a Legacy ornamental mill. (a machine that I truly love to use.) but most OT people just snub me when I start asking questions, Its almost like the are thinking, Since I don't own that 50K machine it cant understand...? This may be true?(I guess?) but I would very much like to learn more on the topics.

Is that the hand cranked mechanical device, and not the current computer driven CNC machine? In addition to having an MDF Rose Engine get-er-going project I'm also a fan of both computerized and mechanical similar machines and geometric art in general. While the not unreasonable consensus is that this sub-forum is rose engine only I wonder if @Bill Boehme and/or @RichColvin would agree to a separate topic or sub-forum or whatever XenForo calls it for non-Rose Engine OT style geometric art done on non-traditional devices, and the machines that can produce it? While I missed the window for getting a machine like yours (multiple kids in college puts a big dent in the budget) I'd like to find out more. I know Sears sold a simpler device in the past, there's the Beall Pen Wizard (currently in limbo with J.R. retiring and transferring part of the business to Lee Valley tools, and undoubtedly more devices. And there's those computerized things, too.

 

[Kirk Yarina]

Great discussion and I also say Amen to Jon's comments. I love wood turning since it is a hobby with depth. I decided to start embellishing some of my pieces. Doing it by hand is much too time consuming for me. Exploring the worlds of CNC and OT is a great project.

I view a 'CNC' machine like any other tool = a means to an end. I understand the whole mechanical complexity appeal of traditional OT and bless the hearts and patience of the people who create stuff that way. The nearest MDF lathe to me is about 60 miles away and that person really doesn't know how to use it. Otherwise the nearest OT lathes are many hundreds or thousands of miles away, along with the people who know how to use them. This is not a reasonable option for me.

I was tempted to make an MDF Rose engine but I found Bill Ooms' COrnlathe program first ha ha. Since I was already exploring using a hobby CNC to assist with laser embellishing, I set about finding a path to successful use of Bill's program. To that end I have come up with two solutions:

The first was using a hobby CNC I built. Using Grblgru I can easily digitize the objects I turn for design purposes. I can use that file directly in Grblgru, or export it to COrnlathe. I eventually created a special 5th axis to help keep my tools at 90 degrees or 'normal' to the work surface. It has the bonus of being Very easy to make and program for, unlike the many trunnion type 5th axes you see. After showing a demonstration of my goal to the author of Grblgru - a free grbl CNC control program - he was kind enough to add the proper mathematics to the B axis motions. This approach works for any design I might find on the Internet or create in a design program. His program will also run the Gcode I can make with COrnlathe but not with 5 axes. I can apply designs with a router, laser, diamond engraver, or pen.

I can also use Guillochograph = a free design program for Guilloche patterns.

I can use Geofun = a free design program for Spirograph-like patterns.

The second approach I developed last summer. I adapted a small metal (or engineers) lathe for OT work. 3 steppers, belts, pulleys, some electronics and a simple text edit of Gcode and I am easily in business with COrnlathe. This has proved to be a much simpler way of exploring OT. I can use the metal lathe as it was intended too. I still have to create some more of the tools, holders, and cutters needed but that will come in time.

Bill's program COrnlathe has all of the traditional rosettes and cutters, as well as the possibility of designing more. I can use any type of cutter or drill, and most methods of applying OT patterns to a surface. I can visualize the piece beforehand. I can change any variables involved. This allows the exploration of many many design possibilities before committing them to wood. I enjoy watching demonstrations of traditional designs and equipment on various Zoom and YouTube presentations. It is relatively easy to recreate the patterns in COrnlathe.

For example. Rich Colvin has a YouTube demo of cutting a typical basket weave type pattern on his MDF lathe. After seeing how it was done, I recreated the means of doing it as well as a couple variants in about 30 minutes. Similarly I saw a different style of basket weave pattern in a recent Zoom session of OTI and was able to recreate that in about 20 minutes. I can generate the GCode necessary to run my adapted lathe in a couple minutes and proceed to test it on cheap poplar dowels. If I like it I use it. If it needs a little tweaking, it is easy to do.

COrnlathe is available on Github for free. Bills original version is for Macs. I posted COrnlathe-for-Windows there too. Just search Github for COrnlathe.
Guillochograph is available on the web. Its author made it free to use a few years ago - don't follow any of the links in the manual since they've been hacked.
Geofun is also available on the web.

I really appreciate the generosity of the authors of these programs making them free for hobby people to use. I post some of my explorations on YouTube = Embellished Turnings.
As I learn I will post some more just for fun and to promote the world of OT designs on wood turnings. Cheers.

I missed this the first time around. I've used some of the software you mentioned, and have a couple rotary axis CNC machines in addition to a (too long) in progress MDF Rose Engine project. Perhaps we can find a place for discussing these kinds of non-traditional devices

 

[RichColvin]

Kirk,

All forms of ornamental turning are welcome here.

Rich

 

[Mike Harman]

Thats a good reply Rich I totaly agree it doesnt matter what machine or method that you use it is still ornamental turning.
I gave up on trying to build a rose engine and instead built a copy of the Nova Tool ornamental machine. and the cutter. It works but i need to make a different system for attaching it to my lathe as it tends to move a little and flex with the mount that i am using. Also I have to work out the movement and rotation to get better results than what i am getting .

 

[Kirk Yarina]

Kirk,

All forms of ornamental turning are welcome here.

Rich

Refer back to the discussion around post number 7, which I have a lot of agreement with, where CNC (shorthand for computer controlled devices with computer based designing) was adamantly opposed. Computer controlled devices are radically different from traditional rose engines, and it's appropriate to separate those out. That's not to say it's not low skilled, but it's different skills. Can it be placed in a separate area where those who aren't interested in the technique can ignore it?

What is questionable to me is the arena where a piece is completely defined in some software package, downloaded to a machine, and the person running the machine is simply hitting a button to execute the design.

To me too, but there's a lot more than (for an example) buying a gadget and downloading somebody else's work, pushing a button, waiting, and walking off with a finished result that many think defines CNC. Somebody has to design the tools (hardware and software) that makes that process possible, along with both the artistry (which I'm not great at, I'm an engineer with a highly artistic wife and daughters) and technical skills to create the design that creates the result. That's a way different discussion than how to download and push a button, which I also have no interest in. The computer related stuff does involve a different language (geekspeak) which is incomprehensible to normal people, so a separate place is probably a good idea, but there's a lot of overlap with OT concepts and pattern design

 

[RichColvin]

There is a movement towards automating the onerous work (e.g., adding barley corn patterns). The system developed by Ed French works well for this. Some other folks are looking at tools like LinuxCNC.

In the cases I see these days, the CNC system is not simply creating a design on a chunk of wood by pushing a button; the artist is definitely involved in the process. This is definitely not like a 3D printer.

So the question is where is too much automation?

1. moving from hand carved to using a treadle lathe
2. moving from a treadle lathe to a motor-driven one
3. moving from adding ornamentation by hand to using powered carving equipment
4. moving from adding threads by hand to using jigs
5. moving from adding ornamentation by hand to using a rose engine or other ornamental turning equipment
6. moving from using a hand-cranked rose engine to one with a spindle drive
7. moving from cutting spirals manually to using a curvilinear slide
8. moving from adding designs to an object using templates (rosettes, etc.) to using a software emulator for that
9. moving from adding patterns manually for each step to automating the repetitious activity
10. sticking a chunk of wood into the machine and pressing go.

To me, the delineation is when we move from step 9 to 10. Others may see differently.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I was one of those who was "adamantly opposed" to the thought of CNC and OT. Yes I'm sure you can download a program and run it but there is just so much more to it than that. The machine itself is a nothing, yes just push a button and go. Learning that takes minutes. But the difference is the software that you have to learn and put together before you push that button. Learning the software is on a par with learning what my 29 rosettes will do with all the options of what my OT can do. I will no longer say that I will not co-join projects between my OT and my CNC in the distant future as I can see in my mind the commingling of both.









'ad

 

[Russ Braun]

I was one of those who was "adamantly opposed" to the thought of CNC and OT. Yes I'm sure you can download a program and run it but there is just so much more to it than that. The machine itself is a nothing, yes just push a button and go. Learning that takes minutes. But the difference is the software that you have to learn and put together before you push that button. Learning the software is on a par with learning what my 29 rosettes will do with all the options of what my OT can do. I will no longer say that I will not co-join projects between my OT and my CNC in the distant future as I can see in my mind the commingling of both.









'ad

It’s all progress! Locking out possibilities for “principal” is one way to hold off your own progression. Curiousness leads to Whoa!! Now I know you’ve embraced Whoa before Bill. It’s a pretty cool place to visit!

 

[Kirk Yarina]

I still like the idea of a separate sub-forum, separate the computer talk from traditional rose enginery. Some days you need to twirl cranks, some days you want punch keys, some days you want to punch out the keyboard, some days you need to hang the cutting frame motor on your MDF rose engine project get it going

 

[Curt George]

I built my rose engine for less than $1,000.

View attachment 46580

Is there any way I can see more of what you did here? I see the jet lathe on blocks, but do you use a spring to maintain the tension? and what kind of table is that you use?

 

[Jeff Hankinson]

I still like the idea of a separate sub-forum, separate the computer talk from traditional rose enginery. Some days you need to twirl cranks, some days you want punch keys, some days you want to punch out the keyboard, some days you need to hang the cutting frame motor on your MDF rose engine project get it going

Hi Kirk. A separate forum would be a nice thing grouping like minded folks together. However, I think there are so few people using computer assisted OT you’d have a tough job scraping enough together. I have no idea where the nearest ornamental lathe turner is to me here in northern Alberta. I suspect it’s a few hundreds of miles. So I just carry on in my shop figuring out problems with applying COrnLathe to wood. It’s such a great program.
For those that think it’s a push button operation, I’d say they are incorrect. For those that find computer assisted lathe work incomprehensible, I’d agree. Similarly, conventional OT work with slide rests, angle calculations, eccentric chucks, geometric chucks, and complex machinery requiring much care and maintenance is all equally incomprehensible.
I decided to skip to the ‘embellishing my turnings‘ part after studying Bill Ooms’ program. Since I can do what I want I am not bounded by anything. I occasionally video what steps I’ve made and put it on my YouTube channel = Embellished Turnings. I’ve recently invented a really solid, inexpensive 5th axis for myself. I initially put it on the CNC and have recently adapted for my metal lathe adaptation. 2023 was a year of exploration and fabrication for me. I anticipate 2024 will be a year for ornamented creations.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Hi Kirk. A separate forum would be a nice thing grouping like minded folks together. However, I think there are so few people using computer assisted OT you’d have a tough job scraping enough together. I have no idea where the nearest ornamental lathe turner is to me here in northern Alberta. I suspect it’s a few hundreds of miles. So I just carry on in my shop figuring out problems with applying COrnLathe to wood. It’s such a great program.
For those that think it’s a push button operation, I’d say they are incorrect. For those that find computer assisted lathe work incomprehensible, I’d agree. Similarly, conventional OT work with slide rests, angle calculations, eccentric chucks, geometric chucks, and complex machinery requiring much care and maintenance is all equally incomprehensible.
I decided to skip to the ‘embellishing my turnings‘ part after studying Bill Ooms’ program. Since I can do what I want I am not bounded by anything. I occasionally video what steps I’ve made and put it on my YouTube channel = Embellished Turnings. I’ve recently invented a really solid, inexpensive 5th axis for myself. I initially put it on the CNC and have recently adapted for my metal lathe adaptation. 2023 was a year of exploration and fabrication for me. I anticipate 2024 will be a year for ornamented creations.

Brilliant! I personally will never get this far as I am learning the Vetric software and my fourth axis will probably remain in the box under my Shark HD510 until I'm ready to try it. I look forward to watching your adventures.

 

[Jeff Hankinson]

Thanks Bill. I’ve climbed that Vectric learning curve as well as several others. It takes a lot of playtime to learn new stuff but that keeps the grey cells active. I use Vectric VCarve for flat work mostly. It’s great for creating or adapting designs to put on wood. Their rotary patterns are interesting but they take way too long to carve, and always seem ‘out of focus’ to me. VCarve cannot do OT type work.
I‘ve built all of my CNC machines. If I don’t like something I change it. The commercial ‘turn key’ types seem well made and functional. However, since the companies have to run as a business they keep the essentials shrouded in a black box so you have to go back to them. This approach is seductively simple but you are left thinking the black box is ‘really complicated’. I prefer to completely understand my machines so no black boxes allowed.
The software I use for my CNC OT type work is all Grbl based and Free. This is hard to beat. The learning curve is steeper but I’m happier with the results.

 

[Kirk Yarina]

I’ve climbed that Vectric learning curve

I'm still climbing, sliding back, climbing again, etc. I'm currently working on non-rotary geometric art, v-carved with VCarve, and learning more than I wanted to about some of the hoops Vectric makes you jump through to v-carve. If they'd only add a non-manual way to turn closed areas (defined by intersections) into closed vectors rather than all this node editing, offsetting, snipping, strong language, and more editing. Or better yet something like Estlcam's automatic shape recognition. It's the classic everytime I think I'm starting to learn something I discover just how much more I don't know.

I lose access to my shop in the winter, but have access to a smallish CNC router and a new not-yet-used small rotary to go with it in the shopless season. It's conveniently located so I get constant reminders to get back to the MDF rose engine project and quit playing around with this CNC stuff

 

[Jeff Hankinson]

Be strong Kirk. The MDF Rose Engine is fun I’m sure. Using both is always an option ha ha. Get that rotary working. VCarve is OK for rotary stuff.
Open vectors is a problem In Vcarve products. I just click on them to highlight, then see which ones are not connected, right click for options, select Join with a line usually. Some designs are just not worth the fiddling around.

 

[Kirk Yarina]

Some designs are just not worth the fiddling around.

I'm too stubborn to quit most of the time . I've been using VCarve's rotary wrapping on a BobsCNC Revolution, this new little guy is to have one for the winter on . I've been looking at Deskproto, which also does indexing, but too many irons in the fire lately. The Revo is XZA only, the new one goes on a machine with a 4 axis controller and can throw Y into the mix.

I've done a little bit with scanned copies of historical patterns, of course they're never good enough with overlaps and not-quite intersections. It's the big complicated ones that get tedious

By new forum I meant something like Forums > Woodturning Forums > Ornamental Turning > Computerized (or something else like Non-Traditional), not a whole new site elsewhere. I'm not up on XenForo's terms

 

[Jeff Hankinson]

I’ve already been down those paths and more. Bob’s CNCs look like dandy machines. He seems very firm with customer support too. I recall his systems are Grbl based although I don’t think he’s implemented GrblHal compatible cards yet = not sure.

I looked at DeskProto and decided that type of 4 sided milling was not adequate for doing turned wood embellishments and it costs $$.

I’ve been using Grblgru. This is a free Grbl based program capable of running up to 6 axes although for my work I only use 4 (COrnLathe) or 5 (Grblgru). The model in Grblgru to use is DIYCNC Engraver to get the multiaxis features. That is a standard gantry style machine. In the end if the model doesn‘t exactly look like someone’s machine it doesn’t matter. This program can function as a CNC simulator, GCode sender, and CAM path creator. The programmer has been very helpful with code to achieve the 5 axis goal I had in mind. He is currently working on a Milling Lathe model with 2 linear and 2 rotary axes. It is also very capable with 3 axis flat work.
To use COrnLathe‘s GCode and Grblgru together is easy. Create the GCode with COrnLathe, Edit that with Notepad++ to Replace all of the C with A (Less than 10 secs), Save, Import the edited GCode into Grblgru and Run it. Other GCode Senders can also be used this way like IoSender or UGCS. It is also possible to do the same thing with a USB Mach3 card and Mach3, but that costs some dough and delving into the wiring of your machine. Different topic but quite easy as I’ve done that too ha ha.
Sorry to all those computer and CNC allergic folks. You are welcome to DM me Kirk with questions if you like. Cheers.

 

[Bill Blasic]

For the better part of the last 17 or 18 years I have hosted hands on with noted turners for my club. This required me to put away all my toys twice and sometimes 3 times a year. That meant boxing up my Rose Engine, covering and protecting the lasers, putting all the toys like threading jigs and hollowing jigs away and now the CNC. I hope there is enough room to get it out of the turning shop into the flat woodworking area (I didn't realize how big the stand turned out to be) until this next hands on with Roberto Ferrer is over early in May. This has led me to tell my club that this will be the last hands on that I do. I will be selling 5 of my lathes so I can make a permanent home for my Rose Engine, the CNC, the toys and the lasers. With permanent homes I can be running projects at the same time on the Rose Engine, the lasers and the CNC as each takes more than a few minutes to do projects and I can also be turning if needed. Hopefully I will be able to contribute more here on the OT Forum and possibly combing these tools.

 

[Kirk Yarina]

I’ve already been down those paths and more. Bob’s CNCs look like dandy machines. He seems very firm with customer support too. I recall his systems are Grbl based although I don’t think he’s implemented GrblHal compatible cards yet = not sure.

I looked at DeskProto and decided that type of 4 sided milling was not adequate for doing turned wood embellishments and it costs $$.

I’ve been using Grblgru. This is a free Grbl based program capable of running up to 6 axes although for my work I only use 4 (COrnLathe) or 5 (Grblgru). The model in Grblgru to use is DIYCNC Engraver to get the multiaxis features. That is a standard gantry style machine. In the end if the model doesn‘t exactly look like someone’s machine it doesn’t matter. This program can function as a CNC simulator, GCode sender, and CAM path creator. The programmer has been very helpful with code to achieve the 5 axis goal I had in mind. He is currently working on a Milling Lathe model with 2 linear and 2 rotary axes. It is also very capable with 3 axis flat work.
To use COrnLathe‘s GCode and Grblgru together is easy. Create the GCode with COrnLathe, Edit that with Notepad++ to Replace all of the C with A (Less than 10 secs), Save, Import the edited GCode into Grblgru and Run it. Other GCode Senders can also be used this way like IoSender or UGCS. It is also possible to do the same thing with a USB Mach3 card and Mach3, but that costs some dough and delving into the wiring of your machine. Different topic but quite easy as I’ve done that too ha ha.
Sorry to all those computer and CNC allergic folks. You are welcome to DM me Kirk with questions if you like. Cheers.

If one of the mods (@RichColvin maybe?) can't move us we should at least start another topic, I'd be overjoyed to pursue this further. Bob has played around with ESP32s a little, but nothing that's shippable as of a year ago, we discussed FluidNC back then but he's quite busy with other stuff. The Revo uses what looks like stock grbl with not much more than Y changed to A. This last summer's shop time went to real bowl turning and no Revoing except for some maintenance. I converted the controller on my Revo to FluidNC (ESPDuino, CNC shield v3 with clipped resistor, DRV8825s) the summer before for no special reason but to try it, it works fine but I'm stuck with UGS because the $$ config interface is missing. I modified BIll's COrnLathe software, changed C to A (only one or two lines as I recall), and iirc converted it to a newer version of Netbeans, and ran it but never went further although it's always on the todo list. I've looked at Grblgru but nothing more than downloading and running it once. I used LinuxCNC in the late aughts, and bought Art's retirement gear design software (he's still updating/adding to it and has a low activity forum) around that time, but never used Mach3. The winter shopette has a Sainsmart 4040 with it's little A axis rotary (which has a closed loop stepper, controller on the end of the motor) that uses a mystery grbl ARM grbl port. That's the next planned project after this chippy dippy carvey stuff.

 

[Kirk Yarina]

For the better part of the last 17 or 18 years I have hosted hands on with noted turners for my club. This required me to put away all my toys twice and sometimes 3 times a year. That meant boxing up my Rose Engine, covering and protecting the lasers, putting all the toys like threading jigs and hollowing jigs away and now the CNC. I hope there is enough room to get it out of the turning shop into the flat woodworking area (I didn't realize how big the stand turned out to be) until this next hands on with Roberto Ferrer is over early in May. This has led me to tell my club that this will be the last hands on that I do. I will be selling 5 of my lathes so I can make a permanent home for my Rose Engine, the CNC, the toys and the lasers. With permanent homes I can be running projects at the same time on the Rose Engine, the lasers and the CNC as each takes more than a few minutes to do projects and I can also be turning if needed. Hopefully I will be able to contribute more here on the OT Forum and possibly combing these tools.

That sounds like some exciting changes! I'm sure I'm not the only one who's eagerly waiting for your contributions here.

 

[Jeff Hankinson]

I’ve gone to GrblHal. Backlash compensation, threading code support, and G93 support figured highly. I looked at Fluid NC and decided GrbHal was more versatile, and still under active development = bonus. Very easy to reprogram the boards. There are many inexpensive boards supported, and a Web Builder utility to make life worth living ie no compiling, no fiddling with config files. I recently converted a red USB Mach3 board to run GrblHal with 4 axes. I’ve also done a MKS TinyBee V1.0 to run 5 axes = XYZAB. Grblgru has helped configure his program for XZBC running on an Arduino Mega2560 card and we will see about a GrblHal compatible version shortly.
I can run pretty much any Grbl GCode sender program. There is a version of COrnLathe for Windows. If you are stuck with UGS I wonder if you are with a Mac.
With respect to Rotary axes, I’ve found it’s better for Z axis rigidity to go down rather than up with the CNC. That is, cut a hole in the waste board. You instantly get more rotary item radius. If the A axis gearing is too wimpy you have to take very light cuts or just use a laser.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I started doing OT type work on a industrial grade, metal cutting, 3 axis CNC milling machine with a Dynapath controller 25+ years ago. When that old control started having circuit board issues I upgraded to a Centroid control (about a $3K upgrade). Both those controls have macro programming language with "if then" branching capability, full math functions, scaling, repeat, virtual part rotation, etc, etc. Basically macro language programming can involve generating the toolpath on the fly. Change a few program variables before running the code to determine the part results. The coding for OT is usually cut, rotate, repeat and increment tool position with a bit of trigonometry and scaling thrown in for part contour.

It can be much easier to generate OT code this way than first creating a complicated 3D model and letting CAM generate the Gcode. For sure the programs are much shorter in length than CAM generated code and easily modifiable.

I use a spreadsheet sometimes to generate Gcode, like with offset center turning with typically 50 offsets per inch of part length giving the part a smooth contour with no obvious center offsetting. Notepad++ can be a help too.

All of the above type coding was done for my business to generate complicated part contours like impellers. My CNC OT stuff was just a hobby endeavor to gently tease traditional OT'ers (that teasing was sometimes not well received by the hard core OT'ers). Oval bowl turning is easy on a CNC and we see how well that was received on this forum.

Anyway, reading the recent postings here I mostly don't have a clue what you folks are talking about. I also was aware of the OT work Bill Ooms was doing and found it confusing feeling like he was re-inventing the wheel. I get the feeling this kind of discussion turns people off on CNC'ing. But then the price of the controls on my machines can be a turn off too where the control itself can cost more than the CNC routers from Woodcraft and Rockler.

 

[Jeff Hankinson]

You pros had CNC figured out long ago as you report. The learning curve of GCode macro programming has been long I’m sure. It reminds me of the old Fortran programming days at university. Since I am mostly making ‘one offs’ I prefer having Bills program do all the work since I’m lazy that way. My control boards are only about $20 so well suited to my hobby.

 

[Kirk Yarina]

I started doing OT type work on a industrial grade, metal cutting, 3 axis CNC milling machine with a Dynapath controller 25+ years ago. When that old control started having circuit board issues I upgraded to a Centroid control (about a $3K upgrade). Both those controls have macro programming language with "if then" branching capability, full math functions, scaling, repeat, virtual part rotation, etc, etc. Basically macro language programming can involve generating the toolpath on the fly. Change a few program variables before running the code to determine the part results. The coding for OT is usually cut, rotate, repeat and increment tool position with a bit of trigonometry and scaling thrown in for part contour.

It can be much easier to generate OT code this way than first creating a complicated 3D model and letting CAM generate the Gcode. For sure the programs are much shorter in length than CAM generated code and easily modifiable.

I use a spreadsheet sometimes to generate Gcode, like with offset center turning with typically 50 offsets per inch of part length giving the part a smooth contour with no obvious center offsetting. Notepad++ can be a help too.

All of the above type coding was done for my business to generate complicated part contours like impellers. My CNC OT stuff was just a hobby endeavor to gently tease traditional OT'ers (that teasing was sometimes not well received by the hard core OT'ers). Oval bowl turning is easy on a CNC and we see how well that was received on this forum.

Anyway, reading the recent postings here I mostly don't have a clue what you folks are talking about. I also was aware of the OT work Bill Ooms was doing and found it confusing feeling like he was re-inventing the wheel. I get the feeling this kind of discussion turns people off on CNC'ing. But then the price of the controls on my machines can be a turn off too where the control itself can cost more than the CNC routers from Woodcraft and Rockler.

Can you post some of your OT work?

 

[Kirk Yarina]

If you are stuck with UGS I wonder if you are with a Mac.

No, WinHoze. UGS's visualizer supports rotary axes (use center, not surface, Z zero). FluidNC decided to abandon grbl's $nnn=xxx config interface for a tree based text version, which broke several gcode senders that like to read out the config. UGS added support for the tree. Getting on my soapbox that seems to be a common open source thing, break everything that came before for a "better way". I also find UGS pretty clunky, javacized instead of a typical windows interface.

The late Alan Battersby, a Cambridge professor, had a site otinexperiences (now gone, but there's a backup on the Wayback Machine) that included a lot of info on CNC OT. He wrote a geometric chuck simulator in LinuxCNC gcode, using it's programming features.

You're way beyond my controller and gcode sender skills

 

[Jeff Hankinson]

I think Bobs machines are a Grbl 1.x board = looks like a Uno clone in his Parts. Plug into your CNC USB. Try running the most recent stable Grblgru. On the top ribbon click the 6th icon = Show controller window. Pick the bottom USB Port (usually). Under machines pick DIYCNC, for boards pick Grbl V1.x (3 axis). It should sign into your board, progress visible in the bottom right window. If successful you should be able to move your machine. If so, Lightburn will work as well.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

You pros had CNC figured out long ago as you report. The learning curve of GCode macro programming has been long I’m sure. It reminds me of the old Fortran programming days at university. Since I am mostly making ‘one offs’ I prefer having Bills program do all the work since I’m lazy that way. My control boards are only about $20 so well suited to my hobby.

Hi Jeff,

You are right to a certain extent. Out of the university the only "real" job I had was working for four years at Boeing Computer Services as a mathematician developing curve fitting algorithms and solving complex math problems on the computer. Math was my least favorite subject in school, but I really took to math via the computer so macro programming was a natural for me. As you say macro programming is very much like Fortran. Boeing sent me off to the university for an advanced degree (which I never finished). I was able to turn my Boeing experience into a business.

What I meant by this discussion turning people off is it does. It turns me off. You can buy a CNC router for less than half the price of a high end wood lathe and it can do basic OT work without having any knowledge of the stuff being discussed here. Some machines come with Vectric Vcarve software which is well supported with lots of tutorials.. No knowledge of operating systems, electronics and so on are needed, design your part in Vectric and create the Gcode in Vectric.

When I talk with woodturners about CNC a good many of the old folks resist by saying "I'm too old to learn that stuff". All of this talk of GRBL (and such) re-enforces that too-old-to-learn concept.

A major problem with the CNC routers sold at Woodcraft and others is the weak operating systems. They could use the well supported Centroid Acorn which is very much full featured. That would probably add a minimum $750 to the base price of the machines. Not good in a price competitive market though. A local guy recently bought a nice $4500 Langmuir CNC router and was so disappointed in the operating system he replaced it with Linuxcnc which is an inexpensive, full featured controller. But, it requires a lot of knowledge and experience to do that upgrade.