Optimizing Head and Tailstock of lathe so they point straight at each other?

[Jon Rista]

Ok. Some time last year, I guess it was early summer, I had some problems with my Beall 3-wheel buffing system. As it turned out, the morse taper had been machined to an incorrect spec. I did not know this was the issue at first, I thought maybe I had damaged it somehow, as it wobbled in my headstock until I brought up the tailstock (and as I didn't know at first, it also wobbled during operation.) I looked around, and found some old threads on a number of forums (I think even this one) about other people having the same issue. This issue actually spanned back YEARS. I think over a decade. I found a fairly informative thread all the way back in 2016. So I realized the problem was legit.

I then discovered that the inside of the morse taper of my spindle on this Wen 14x20 lathe had been damaged, and that was causing problems inserting most of my other MT2 dead centers, collet chuck, etc. I contacted Lee Valley, who bought the rights to a bunch of Beall stuff when they closed their doors (I guess that was the end of 2022?) They checked the specs they were manufacturing to, and confirmed that there was a problem. It was NOT actually to MT2 spec! So they agreed to machine a new shaft with a proper MT2 on it, and sent it to me. It took a while for all of that to happen, so I'd taken my headstock apart, pulled out the spindle, and took it to a machinist who showed me some techniques he would use to level out the high spots. Which I did. That "mostly" fixed the issues (not entirely...and Wen's stock lately has been VERY spotty, so I haven't yet been able to get a replacement...new spindles seems to sell out in a heartbeat for some reason...and I guess they only get like 6 at a time??)

The problem I now have is, in disassembling the headstock so I could get the spindle out, then back in after fixing it up, I am having a heck of a time getting the headstock and tailstock properly aligned. I bought a short double-ended MT2 piece, so I could fit it into both the headstock and tailstock. I thought that would do the trick, but I still had some mispointing, so I bought an even longer shaft with double MT2. I thought that fixed it as well...and for longer things it seemed pretty good (?), but then I started turning shorter/smaller things again, and its quite clear that I STILL have a pointing problem.

SO...I'm wondering if any of you have advice, about how to optimally determine pointing for the headstock of a midi lathe. I thought the double-ended MT2 part would do it, but I'm starting to wonder if the tailstock is really up to the task. The way the tailstock is designed to fit into the ways, its not...perfect. Its ok, but it may not sit 100% perfectly. Thing is, before I had to take the spindle out, I didn't have pointing issues, so at some point everything was aligned. I thought about that before I took the headstock off, but couldn't (at the time) really think of a way to reference its current "exact" position (and down to say a thousandth!!), so I just did what I had to do. But I definitely have some pointing issues, and I'm not quite sure what the best way to resolve them is.

In part, I know I have a pointing issue, as if I put my sharpest live center (or even my sharpest dead center, both 60 deg) into the tailstock, and bring it up to a piece of wood I have rotating in a chuck in the headstock... REGARDLESS of the way I have that piece of wood chucked (could be my collet chuck, could be one of the four different wood chucks I have, in any of the wide array of jaws I have). The point of the live center, with the locking lever fully locked without even the minutest of wobble in the quill, will NOT touch the dead center moment of rotation in the wood. Instead, it will touch a little outside, and carve a tiny ring, or a very small circle, into the wood. So I'm off, by some thousandths (maybe even a couple hundredths), and I can't quite seem to dial it in...

I do have a dial indicator, with a magnetic base that I can latch onto my lathe bed. When I test with that, using a long strait shaft (although, I honestly don't know if its "perfectly" strait enough to properly test my alignment here, to be fair), the dial indicator seems to register some tens of thousandths at most, sometimes its maybe around 10-15 thousandths. I would like it to be better than that, I'd love to get it down to just a few thousandths at most, but heck, I am having a hard time. In part, moving the headstock around is not easy, unless I over-loosen the bolts, at which point even if I align really well, once I tighten again then that shifts things. So I try to keep the bolts just loose enough to shift the headstock, but then its too hard to shift it with fine enough movements to actually dial it in, I guess. The double ended MT2 insert just doesn't seem to work well enough, to actually shift the headstock optimally into perfect alignment on its own (that was what I thought it would do...but it doesn't actually seem to... Again, maybe its just this bolt tightness/friction thing...loose enough for the MT2 insert to do the job for me, then locking down the bolts seems to shift the headstock out of alignment again...)


Well, anyway... I've been turning things this way for a while now. I missed an opportunity to buy an entire replacement headstock a few weeks back, due to limited finances. So it sounds like it will be another 6-8 weeks at least before more parts are stocked, and it could be longer than that. 🤷‍♂️ Any ideas for how to align this puppy would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Try tightening the headstock bolts very gradually in turn by snugging one lightly, then its opposite to the same degree, then the others. Do another round and another until they are all tight. Washers under the headstock bolts might help with the squirming. Is there any way you can clamp the headstock in position as you tighten the bolts?

You say that the tailstock fit in the ways is sloppy. Trying to hit a moving target can't be helpful. You may want to tighten that up by peening or shimming the guide block on the tailstock.

On most lathes one can remove the spindle without taking the headstock off the ways. Just something to keep in mind in future. It's easy to cause more problems than the one you are trying to fix.

 

[Lou Jacobs]

I’m not familiar with your lathe, don’t know how heavy it is, or how rigid the bed is. Is it at all possible that you have some twist in the bed? Have you gone through all the adjustments of the feet? Just a long shot.

 

[Steve Bonny]

I’m not familiar with your lathe, don’t know how heavy it is, or how rigid the bed is. Is it at all possible that you have some twist in the bed? Have you gone through all the adjustments of the feet? Just a long shot.

Coincidentally, I was just looking up how to align a PM3520 - and that seems to be the guidance I'm finding. Levelling the lathe can twist it and vary the alignment. Gonna check this on mine today.
I'm also wondering if it is a way you could dial in the last few thou on your lathe?

 

[John K Jordan]

… discovered that the inside of the morse taper of my spindle on this Wen 14x20 lathe had been damaged, and that was causing problems inserting most of my other MT2 dead centers, collet chuck, etc. I…

A BAD MORSE TAPER SOCKET

I don’t know about the 2MT problems on that particular lathe, but in general, when I see problems with a lathe spindle or tail stock, first I try cleaning it and if that doesn’t work, I pull out a 2MT reamer. For cleaning, I use a flexible green taper cleaner regularly to remove sawdust and various grime but solvent on a wad of paper towel or cloth on a stick can also work.

But even a good, clean MT can develop problems, perhaps if something inserted twists under force and galls the inside taper. For this, I pull out a #2MT reamer. The, turned by hand, can quickly clean up small problems. I don’t know how much effort it would take to fix one that had been machined incorrectly. I have this reamer set:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07933VYD7

….I'm wondering if any of you have advice, about how to optimally determine pointing for the headstock of a midi …

ALIGNING A LATHE

A lathe can get easily get out of alignment for several reasons. Again, I’m not familiar with your lathe and any play experienced when reassembled/installed. However, the bed of any lathe, even one with a heavy cast iron bed, can easily twist causing a misalignment, making some operations difficult or impossible.

As an example, turner Mark StLeger was once teaching at our turning club when he discovered a slight misalignment in our lathe which would make his next step “challenging”. It was break time, so I took a couple of minutes and realigned it. I discovered then that few knew this simple method. I can’t promise it will fix what you are seeing but it might be worth checking. Perhaps you’ve already tried this and it didn’t work in your case, but maybe it will help someone.

1) Put a good quality center of any type in both the headstock and tailstock. (preferably one that hasn’t been beat up) Slide the tailstock up so the points nearly touch. If they don’t align horizontally, the fix is simple as long as the lathe has adjustable feet. First make sure there is no debris or sawdust under any of the lathe feet.

2) To fix a simple horizontal misalignment, adjust one of the four feet of the lathe. For example, if the tailstock point is a little too close to you, raise either the leg normally to your right (the tailstock end) or the leg to your left behind the headstock. If the lathe bed had a slight twist, this should fix it. It is amazing how flexible steel and especially cast iron are.

This type of misalignment can easily happen by simply moving the lathe across the room or even a few inches. Floors are seldom perfectly level. If one leg is in a low or high spot the entire bed can twist. Note that this doesn’t check for alignment all the way down the lathe, but this usually doesn’t matter in wood turning. It’s the misalignment when the tailstock is close that causes grief.

3) Vertical misalignment. If the point of the tailstock is above that of the headstock when they are touching, it’s a different problem. I’ve only seen that once and fixed it with a very thin shim. I didn’t try anything else and haven’t seen that problem since. (maybe try a sledge hammer!) My lathes have sliding headstocks. For lathes with the headstock bolted down, I might first make sure the mating surfaces are perfectly clean of dust or debris and free of any burrs or scratches, and perfectly flat. If all these look good, then I would perhaps try a thin shim under one or more bolts. I had to do that on a mini lathe once.

When I need to shim something I usually use cut a piece from a packets of plastic shim stock but occasionally a thin feeler from a set of feeler gauges. I buy extra sets of these in inch and metric and take them apart - they are incredibly handy at times at the metal lathe or mill. When buying plastic shim stock, I found it useful to get packets from several different suppliers. They sometimes include different thicknesses.

JKJ

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

What difference does it make if the headstock and tailstock centers don't align? We're talking woodworking equipment here working with hand guided tools on a non-homogeneous material that tends to easily distort., not precision metalworking lathes where the tailstock alignment can be a major issue. Then you hold workpieces in chucks that are so imprecise they would never pass usage in metalworking. I can understand why it would make a lathe owner feel better if the points did lineup.

How about the higher end lathes, Oneway and Robust, do they align perfectly? With their stiff tubular beds you might think there would be very minimal bed distortion. One of the better manufacturers of metal working lathes got around alignment issues be designing extremely stiff lathe beds combined with a 3 point mount to lathe stand, two connections under the headstock, one soft mount under the tailstock so no need for leveling on the floor or worry about bed distortion. But the 3 point mount came at a steep price.

The Morse tapers in the headstock and tailstock are self holding tapers depending on the accuracy of manufacturing to hold. Jon (the OP) mentioned his headstock taper being bad, either damaged in use or mis-manufactured.. As JKJ said a MT reamer can easily clean up burrs inside the taper. I'm not sure I would trust a $28 set from Amazon though, how do you know those reamers are accurate? Jon also said the Beal taper was mis-manufactured, that's pretty bad.

 

[John K Jordan]

What difference does it make if the headstock and tailstock centers don't align?

It makes a big difference with certain operations where the tailstock needs to be used close to the headstock. Even a tiny misalignment may cause sloppy results, especially for smaller detailed turning and when making things that have to fit together seamlessly. Makes no practical difference for long spindles (chair parts), bowls, and to those who don't do those kinds of turning where alignment matters. It sure mattered to Mark StLeger!

I tested the #2MT reamers I bought through Amazon and found them to be excellent. I test tapered shafts and sockets with the Dykem Blue layout fluid I use in my little machine shop. I've used them to repair galling in lathes of friends.

Jon also said the Beal taper was mis-manufactured, that's pretty bad.

MY UNPLEASANT MIS-MANUFACTURED MORSE TAPER STORY:

In Feb of 2016 I bought one of almost everything that Rubber Chucky Products LLC made, both to test them for the community and for my use. (I don't like to recommend things I haven't used myself.) Most things I got from RC were perfect and as advertised but a machined aluminum #2MT shaft would not fit properly in any of my lathes. I first tested the taper, inspected it carefully, then measured the taper. It was simply machined incorrectly, no other explanation. The taper would even wobble in the lathe spindle socket! (Even a simple digital caliper showed the part was incorrecly made and by what angle.)

When installed and twisted, the taper actually galled a ring on the aluminum surface. (I took photos at the time but couldint find them quickly just now.) Sure it was a simple mistake I called the company who assured me I was wrong and since all their tapers had to be perfect since they were CNC machined. The person said they'd send out a replacement but it would be exactly like the one in my hand.

(Please note here that I do NOT make a habit of making negative comments about any person or company but will state the facts where appropriate. I usually just take care if things and keep quiet.)

However, I feel my phone communications with the representative who answered the RC phone became more unreasonable and highly unpleasant. After telling me I had to be mistaken the person implied that I was stupid since everyone knows you always have to drive a morse taper into the headstock with a hammer before use. What?! (I may be stupid, but consider the spindle bearings!) Then, when I told them of my machining experience and how my testing indicated the taper was machined incorrectly, the person hung up on me.

So I gave up and fixed that taper myself. I still use some of the RC products I bought, especially when turning spheres and for some other hard-to-hold things. Although this unpleasant experience was a long time ago and I'm sure they since found and fixed that problem so don't be discouraged from buying from them. However, today I'll make what I need.

To be fair, perhaps the person on the phone was just having a bad day. Fortunately, there seem to be far more pleasant people in the world than the opposite. For example, in the last few days I diagnosed an odd problem with a new Yamaha musical instrument and the dealer representatives, like most, were wonderful!

JKJ

 

[John K Jordan]

A lathe can get easily get out of alignment for several reasons.

Jon, I just read your original post again. If the lathe spindle is out of concentric alignment while rotating, aligning the bed won't help. That's sounds like a serious problem. Does it feel "noisy" when turned by hand (bearings?)

I test the lathe spindle with a length of precision hardened drill rod held tight in a MT collet with a drawbar. (after cleaning the spindle MT and the rod and the inside and MT of the collet)

I also check by mounting a chuck or well-made spindle extender fastened to the spindle threads. Note that most of the chucks I tested are a bit out of concentric alignment, but the extender I bought from Best Wood Tools is perfect. I keep different jaws in separate chucks and never removed them (I hate to change jaws!) so I also test at the jaws and mark those that are more precise than others (there's a little trick to that, too much to describe here). I've also been known to lightly machine jaws for precision but that's also best done with the same little trick.

Note also, if testing something monted in the threads, it is critical to clean the threads and mating surfaces carefully first. This was strongly recommended by Chris Ramsey when he turned a cowboy hat at a club demo. Turning large and very thin requires precision!

JKJ

 

[Jon Rista]

Try tightening the headstock bolts very gradually in turn by snugging one lightly, then its opposite to the same degree, then the others. Do another round and another until they are all tight. Washers under the headstock bolts might help with the squirming. Is there any way you can clamp the headstock in position as you tighten the bolts?

You say that the tailstock fit in the ways is sloppy. Trying to hit a moving target can't be helpful. You may want to tighten that up by peening or shimming the guide block on the tailstock.

On most lathes one can remove the spindle without taking the headstock off the ways. Just something to keep in mind in future. It's easy to cause more problems than the one you are trying to fix.

So, the tailstock isn't exactly sloppy per-se... It has a slight bit of slop, although it does tend to settle. Its more that, I can't really re-point the tailstock in anyway? So, the tailstock points...how it points? I've wondered if that might be part of the problem. I am pretty sure that the headstock is not in optimal alignment, yes. But, if the tailstock is also out of alignment...heck, is there even anything I can do about that?

Regarding tightening the headstock. Yes, I tighten in alteration. I don't know if the headstock bolts have washers, I'll check. I probably could not clamp the headstock in place while its on the benchtop, and moving it would undoubtedly skew the ways, so I'm not sure if there are options there.

Generally speaking, yes, the spindle should have been removable without removing the headstock, but it wouldn't budge, and I needed more leverage to get it out. Where it sits on one of my workbenches, there is not a lot of room to work around it. First time dealing with such a thing though, lesson's learned.

I’m not familiar with your lathe, don’t know how heavy it is, or how rigid the bed is. Is it at all possible that you have some twist in the bed? Have you gone through all the adjustments of the feet? Just a long shot.

You know, I did originally, but its been a while. I'll check and see if it is still level. It does shift around on the benchtop its on a bit over time. Its a midi level Wen 14x20" lathe. Its not a top of the line lathe, but its actually been very reliable since the end of 2020 when I bought it (to replace a Nova Comet 14DR I'd bought earlier in the year that plagued me with nothing but problems, then took Teknatool so many months to fix that I thought they had simply forgotten about it...months after I bought the Wen it arrived on my doorstep...with a LOUD scraping sound in the headstock... Anyone who bashes on Wen, can talk to me about Nova. )

What difference does it make if the headstock and tailstock centers don't align? We're talking woodworking equipment here working with hand guided tools on a non-homogeneous material that tends to easily distort., not precision metalworking lathes where the tailstock alignment can be a major issue. Then you hold workpieces in chucks that are so imprecise they would never pass usage in metalworking. I can understand why it would make a lathe owner feel better if the points did lineup.

How about the higher end lathes, Oneway and Robust, do they align perfectly? With their stiff tubular beds you might think there would be very minimal bed distortion. One of the better manufacturers of metal working lathes got around alignment issues be designing extremely stiff lathe beds combined with a 3 point mount to lathe stand, two connections under the headstock, one soft mount under the tailstock so no need for leveling on the floor or worry about bed distortion. But the 3 point mount came at a steep price.

The Morse tapers in the headstock and tailstock are self holding tapers depending on the accuracy of manufacturing to hold. Jon (the OP) mentioned his headstock taper being bad, either damaged in use or mis-manufactured.. As JKJ said a MT reamer can easily clean up burrs inside the taper. I'm not sure I would trust a $28 set from Amazon though, how do you know those reamers are accurate? Jon also said the Beal taper was mis-manufactured, that's pretty bad.

You misunderstood the issue about the MT2 taper in my OP. The LATHE is FINE from an MT2 standpoint. The MT2 taper on the shaft of my Beall Buffing System was bad. It was machined (and apparently had been getting machined) to a steeper angle than necessary for MT2 for at least a DECADE! When the buffing system morse taper was inserted into my Wen spindle's morse taper hole, the only contact point was the rim of the hole. The rest of the MT taper on the SHAFT of the buffing system was WRONG. So when I cranked the speed up to say 1500RPM or so, the shaft was flexing, and the end of that taper was scraping up the inside of my Wen's perfectly good spindle.

I spent time cleaning up the spindle. I leveled out all the bumps and ridges caused by the bad BEALL taper, as best I could. Its not perfect, but I've used an MT2 reamer (by hand), sand paper tightly wrapped around a proper MT2 taper on a shaft, and sanded by hand up to a fine grit, then metal polished with the same MT2 taper with paper towel wrapped around it. Most of my MT2 tapers fit into the spindle fine now, but there are a couple of bumps that I can't seem to entirely level out, so its not perfect. The Wen spindle, however, is not the problem. Its MT2 was machined to spec properly. The morse taper on the Beall 3-wheel buffing system, is what had the spec problem, and its what damaged the Wen spindle.

---

Regarding alignment. I respectfully disagree. It certainly matters on the kinds of things I'm turning right now. Lot of small things, maybe just a few inches long. The misalignment, though small, is definitely a problem. Anything in my tailstock doesn't just poke a tiny little point into the item I'm turning. Instead, it carves a circle, and that in fact results in a poor quality hold from the tailstock. Even a little bit of pressure from my tools, can result in a shift due to how the tailstock isn't contacting at the center of rotation, which then screws things up. I've been dealing with this for months now, and its an annoying problem. For things I can turn without support from the tailstock, I can turn without issues, but anything I DO need support from the tailstock, I tend to have problems. So yes, it matters.

FWIW, my Powermatic 3520C has phenomenal alignment. This may not be "Robust" level manufacturing, but its by far steps above most of the other brands of lathes I've used (Nova, Wen, Laguna, and Jet, although Jet is not too bad, which is not surprising considering its the same parent manufacturer.) Point to point is pretty much dead on for the Powermatic. I've never fiddled with anything since I bought it (spring 2022, I guess it was). Its the best lathe I've ever used. No pointing issues. No manufacturing quirks. No power issues. I love turning on the Powermatic. But its a bit large for small items, hence turning them on the Wen.

I also had a Laguna Revo 1524. That lathe had this inane concept called "precise point". Instead of the quill being supported fully through a tight-tolerance hole bored through the entire metal of the tailstock, it was supported ONLY by a not quite even 1" thick metal block just at the front of the tailstock. The hole bored into that, was not tight tolerance. So when you loosed the quill, it wobbled considerably, and the greater the extension, the greater the wobble. I had significant problems getting that inane tailstock/quill design to contact the center of rotation on anything. The banjo on that lathe is quite wide, so I often had to extend the quill a few inches on most bowls and platters, and it was hugely problematic when the live center wouldn't contact the center of rotation. Instead, it would contact a 5+ millimeters off center (I think at full extension with the original block on the front of my tailstock, Laguna replaced it once, I measured nearly 10mm offset due to the fact that the center of the tailstock is a cavernous square hole that offers ZERO support of anything, and offers ample room for the back of the quill to just swing around...), resulting in a significant shudder when turning. I didn't know what was going on at first, I was just having weird problems turning. I'll never buy a lathe that has any such technology again.

Good, accurate pointing is important. Does it need to be 100% absolutely perfect? No, probably not, but misalignment does cause problems. If I was turning long spindles on this Wen lathe, it probably wouldn't be a problem. But for 2-3" smaller items, many of which often need to come to a fine point at the tailstock end, its a problem. Even for larger items. Say I want to drill a hole with a forstner that's a particular size, because I need a specific fit, for a tenon on something else, or maybe to optimally fit a piece of glass that will be inserted (i.e. for wood vases that can actually hold a live flower or bud)? I can't! Every single hole I drill, is larger than it should be. By a as much as a millimeter in the worst cases. I can see the misalignment when the bit contacts the wood. This became a HUGE problem for turning pens. Every hole I drilled was too large, and enough too large that after turning the bodies, the wood would be so thin you could hear it crackle around the brass tube. I drill on the powermatic these days.

Alignment accuracy does matter. I'm not saying it needs to be one thou...but, it needs to be better than it is.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

It makes a big difference with certain operations where the tailstock needs to be used close to the headstock

Okay.... yes, maybe, but what sort of mis-alignment are we talking about? .001", .005", .01" or .1". Before making any judgements about alignment you'd want to use a dial indicator to assure the spindle's taper socket is concentric with the spindle axis. Likewise with the tailstock quill. Wood is very forgiving..... even with the tailstock close in.

I do agree with your comments about the machined aluminum MT from Rubber Ducky, that person was stupid. Generally you don't want to use machined MT's, they should be ground. And for sure you don't pound a MT into its socket.

 

[Jon Rista]

A BAD MORSE TAPER SOCKET

I don’t know about the 2MT problems on that particular lathe, but in general, when I see problems with a lathe spindle or tail stock, first I try cleaning it and if that doesn’t work, I pull out a 2MT reamer. For cleaning, I use a flexible green taper cleaner regularly to remove sawdust and various grime but solvent on a wad of paper towel or cloth on a stick can also work.

But even a good, clean MT can develop problems, perhaps if something inserted twists under force and galls the inside taper. For this, I pull out a #2MT reamer. The, turned by hand, can quickly clean up small problems. I don’t know how much effort it would take to fix one that had been machined incorrectly. I have this reamer set:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07933VYD7

The MT2 taper was wrong on the Beall 3-wheel buffing systems mandrel, that shaft that pokes into the headstock, and has a little dimple on the other end for a 60 deg live? If you read my previous post, you'll find I have spent a lot of time cleaning up the spindle. The spindle is pretty good, save for a couple fo bumps I can still feel, so its not perfect. The issue I'm having with the headstock is alignment, but overall the spindle works now. It was scraped up and damaged by the Beall mandrel's MT, which was machined at too steep an angle, resulting in the only contact point being the outer rim of the MT2 hole in the spindle. At speed, then with pressure from buffing things, the mandrel would flex a bit, and it caused a fair amount of damage in the spindle. I've reamed the spindle, sanded it smooth, polished it with metal polish. All using MT2 tapers to maintain the accuracy of the spindle's taper. I don't think there is anything wrong with the wen spindle except a couple of slight bumps (whcih, I can see sometimes put a very tiny mark on my MT2 inserts, but otherwise, things hold tight in the spindle now, vs. before when it was damaged it couldn't hold anything well, and everything would slip and fall out. I keep the spindle clean. In fact, I keep morse tapers clean on all my machines kind of religiously, headstock, tailstock, etc.

Anyway. The problem is not the lathe MT2. That was the Beall mandrel, and it was replaced by Lee Valley. The problem right now, is alignment...which you address below. I just want everyone reading this thread to know, the Wen spindle is not the problem. Beall's 3-wheel buffing system, for years apparently (if you search for old threads on woodturning forums) was the problem...it was mis-specced it seems. As far as I know, Lee Valley has corrected this, and any NEW mandrels will be correctly machined, so if anyone else has a bad Beall mandrel, you might be able to contact Lee for a replacement.

ALIGNING A LATHE

A lathe can get easily get out of alignment for several reasons. Again, I’m not familiar with your lathe and any play experienced when reassembled/installed. However, the bed of any lathe, even one with a heavy cast iron bed, can easily twist causing a misalignment, making some operations difficult or impossible.

As an example, turner Mark StLeger was once teaching at our turning club when he discovered a slight misalignment in our lathe which would make his next step “challenging”. It was break time, so I took a couple of minutes and realigned it. I discovered then that few knew this simple method. I can’t promise it will fix what you are seeing but it might be worth checking. Perhaps you’ve already tried this and it didn’t work in your case, but maybe it will help someone.

1) Put a good quality center of any type in both the headstock and tailstock. (preferably one that hasn’t been beat up) Slide the tailstock up so the points nearly touch. If they don’t align horizontally, the fix is simple as long as the lathe has adjustable feet. First make sure there is no debris or sawdust under any of the lathe feet.

2) To fix a simple horizontal misalignment, adjust one of the four feet of the lathe. For example, if the tailstock point is a little too close to you, raise either the leg normally to your right (the tailstock end) or the leg to your left behind the headstock. If the lathe bed had a slight twist, this should fix it. It is amazing how flexible steel and especially cast iron are.

This type of misalignment can easily happen by simply moving the lathe across the room or even a few inches. Floors are seldom perfectly level. If one leg is in a low or high spot the entire bed can twist. Note that this doesn’t check for alignment all the way down the lathe, but this usually doesn’t matter in wood turning. It’s the misalignment when the tailstock is close that causes grief.

3) Vertical misalignment. If the point of the tailstock is above that of the headstock when they are touching, it’s a different problem. I’ve only seen that once and fixed it with a very thin shim. I didn’t try anything else and haven’t seen that problem since. (maybe try a sledge hammer!) My lathes have sliding headstocks. For lathes with the headstock bolted down, I might first make sure the mating surfaces are perfectly clean of dust or debris and free of any burrs or scratches, and perfectly flat. If all these look good, then I would perhaps try a thin shim under one or more bolts. I had to do that on a mini lathe once.

When I need to shim something I usually use cut a piece from a packets of plastic shim stock but occasionally a thin feeler from a set of feeler gauges. I buy extra sets of these in inch and metric and take them apart - they are incredibly handy at times at the metal lathe or mill. When buying plastic shim stock, I found it useful to get packets from several different suppliers. They sometimes include different thicknesses.

JKJ

Its a Wen 14x20 lathe. Midi, tabletop.

So, I used a couple of squares and a level to check the bed. One of the squares is an engineering grade, its very precise. I couldn't identify any difference in contact across the ways with that. Contact seems consistent all the way across both (set the square across the gap). I then moved it down the length of the ways, and it seems they are.....even. I don't know with what accuracy, though...I don't really have a tool that I think would let me test that. I checked with my other square, a woodworkers square, but its new, very square, and it has a leveling bubble in it. The buttle was not centered, which immediately made me think there was a problem. So I checked with the engineering square again, and things seemed fine. Pulled out another level, same shift in the bubble. Then I tested the leveling of the workbench, and it, too, has the same misleveling. So, I think the bed, as best I can tell anyway, is even in both ways, across both ways, down the length of them.

I am pretty sure what has happened, is when I took the headstock off so I could get the spindle out (which was challenging, and I don't have room for leverage where the lathe sits on this particular workbench), that I have just been unable to get the headstock properly aligned again. Hence the cry for help. It was PERFECT before...its been imperfect since. So its my fault, there was probably something I could have done to make it easier to get back to alignment once I put it back on...but at the time, I was fretting over the (what I thought was) total destruction of my spindle at the time. I was making a large set of pens for a customer, and problems had set me back, so yeah...

SO...if the issue is not a misleveled lathe bed... I'm pretty sure the issue is that the headstock is angled very slightly to the back of the lathe, vs. dead to rights down the center of the ways. A couple months back, when I was trying to fix this issue, the angle was actually slightly to the front, and it was a bit worse than it is now. So I am pretty sure the problem is a mis-angled headstock. I am just not real sure.....how to get it the angle corrected. Its a pretty fine thing, and it seems my ability to set the angle by hand by moving the headstock directly, is limited. Further, I bought this long alignment shaft (or mandrel?) with an MT2 on both ends. When I use that with my dial indicator, the readings are quite small...but, I don't think the dial indicator is capable of actually measuring the real problem. The deflection in that shaft as it rotates is small, but at the same time, the angle at which the shaft points is still off... Its the angle that's the problem, not rotational deflection. If that makes any sense?

 

[Jon Rista]

Okay.... yes, maybe, but what sort of mis-alignment are we talking about? .001", .005", .01" or .1". Before making any judgements about alignment you'd want to use a dial indicator to assure the spindle's taper socket is concentric with the spindle axis. Likewise with the tailstock quill. Wood is very forgiving..... even with the tailstock close in.

I do agree with your comments about the machined aluminum MT from Rubber Ducky, that person was stupid. Generally you don't want to use machined MT's, they should be ground. And for sure you don't pound a MT into its socket.

I have used a dial indicator. I thought I mentioned that in my OP? The rotational DEFLECTION is quite small. The dial indicator won't measure angular misalignment in the headstock, though. The spindle will spin true, regardless of the angle of the headstock, right?

I don't know who Rubber Ducky is? I also have never pounded an MT into a socket...


As for the amount of misalignment. I haven't measured it directly, not really sure how. What I can tell you is this. If I put a small drill bit in a jacobs in my tailstock, and bring it up to a rotating piece of stock that's oh, around 4" long, and just touch it. Instead of getting a dimple at the center of rotation, I either get (depends on the exact size of the bit) a circle about 1.5-2mm across, or even a ring carved around a bump at the true center of rotation, about 2mm or so in size. That's the problem I've been having. So, if I wanted to drill a hole....say 3/8" in diameter. I can't... I'll get a hole about...a tenth of an inch larger? Oh, and, because the angle of the headstock is wrong, the hole won't be drilled down the TRUE center of the stock...so when the bit comes out the other end, its shifted from center, but its also exactly the right diameter. The longer the piece of wood is, the more exaggerated the issues are at the tailstock end, although lately I haven't been turning things much longer than 6" lately.

 

[John K Jordan]

I don't know who Rubber Ducky is? I also have never pounded an MT into a socket...

I referred to Rubber Chucky, the company that makes stiff rubber attachments for holding, jam chucking, etc.

Product Catagories - Choose a Product Group BELOW - it is highly recommended that you purchase at least one MT2 Chucky Arbor

Rubber Chucky Products, LLC manufacturers and distributes rubber jam chucks and other woodturning aids; enabling both the beginning and professional woodturner an easier way to create their masterpieces. Proudly made in the USA

www.rubberchucky.com

Some of the products are very nice, but I make my own with wood sometimes combined with tough foam rubber, etc.

It was their "arbor" that was the problem in my long-ago order. Maybe someone who's bought one more recently can verify they are making them correctly now.
I think the arbor is threaded to match the threads on the Oneway live center (and clones) I use a drill bit and tap for that.

As for pounding towards the headstock, years ago it was common for some people to mount blanks on a 2- or 4-prong drive center mounted in the lathe by holding the wood up to the center and pounding the back side with something. I don't even like to use excessive force from the tailstock.

After some reports of damaged bearings, I think this practice decreased. The recommended way (once the desired drive center point is decided on an irregular chunk) is to put the wood on the workbench and drive the center into the wood with something - a heavy mallet works well.

BTW, for those who haven't made one, a round mallet such as carvers use is a quick and easy project. I've been using one I made from Dogwood for a LONG time.



I like Dogwood for it's strength, weight, and fine grain. And it grows locally - all I have came from my farm.
Some other good options include Persimmon (American Ebony, woods here are full of it), Hickory, maybe Bradford Pear or Purple Heart, Pau Marfim (guatambu), and of course, Lignum Vitae, etc.

Anyone who lives near here and wants to make one, stop by for some wood and instruction (in the unlikely event it's needed).

JKJ

PS: Rubber Ducky is a cute little kids bathtub toy. (sorry!) 😁
When I was a little kid we were too poor so I never had one...

 

[Jon Rista]

Ok. I cleaned up the lathe. Cleaned the bed, both ways, really well, put some paste wax on them. Cleaned up the bottoms of both the banjo and the tailstock. Cleaned the (rather oddly designed) clamps that hold them in place (unlike the round blocks that most lathes use, these things are...more complex and shaped.) I cleaned out both morse tapers really well. Then I put sharp centers in both, and brought them as close to each other as I could. I did everything I could to keep the tailstock centered. There is a very very slight bit of play, but, it actually results in LESS angular deviation than you can see here. I believe the tailstock is truly centered.

Side on, the height of both looks to be pretty darn near spot on. I am not worried about this. Its not perfect, but it seems plenty good enough.



Top view, though, and this was even to my surprise, the angular deviation is obvious. As I suspected, given how the tailstock would always contact a bit "forward" of the true center of rotation on blanks I held in the headstock, by around a millimeter (?), the backwards pointing angular deviation is what I expected. I did not, however, expect to be able to see it so obviously when the live center was brought so close:



I also checked the bolts that hold the headstock in place. They DO have washers. The annoyuing thing about them, is they are below the lathe.... Worse, two of them are actually practically impossible to get at, without removing the motor, as the diameter of the motor is just enough, that fitting a hex key into the bolts is almost impossible, and turning it once you do, is just about impossible. So the motor has to be removed as well. I forgot about that, and its probably why I haven't tried to fix this again in months.......

I've seen these small little hammers...they have rubber faces. One is usually solid colored, and the other is usually translucent. The last one I saw was dark solid green and a lighter translucent green. I remember it being ludicrously expensive (I think it was a WoodRiver product...which always seem to be radically overpriced...this thing was about $50 or so IIRC). Anyway...would a hammer like that, potentially work to slightly nudge the pointing of the headstock, so that these two pointed directly at each other? I don't want to use a normal hammer, as the lathe has this dark gray metallic enamel that I'm quite sure will just chip off if I do. I have a deadblow hammer, which I tried to use before, and it seems to move it too much each time, and getting a "soft" blow with it doesn't quite seem to be a thing...........

I don't know if there are any other options for softly tunking the headstock to try and very, very slightly nudge it into proper angle.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Quite the conundrum. It's hard for me to understand how you can get a (presumably straight) double -ended #2MT shaft fully seated into both head- and tailstock spindles, bolt down the headstock, get the shaft out without undue effort and have the headstock and tailstock misaligned. But that seems to be the case.

My Oneway has the tailstock guide block bolted to the bottom of the tailstock casting. Is yours like that, and could you adjust its orientation to align the tailstock with the ways? You said that the tailstock alignment changed over a period of months- there must be something that changed there.

I guess you could devise four blocks clamped to the ways and threaded for lateral screws bearing on the front and back of the headstock to adjust and hold it in place while you lock it down.

Honestly, if I had a properly functioning PM 3520 alongside this problematic lathe whose nameplate suggests kinship to a wart or cyst I would deep six the Wen and not look back. Why is the Powermatic undesirable for small work?

 

[Jon Rista]

Quite the conundrum. It's hard for me to understand how you can get a (presumably straight) double -ended #2MT shaft fully seated into both head- and tailstock spindles, bolt down the headstock, get the shaft out without undue effort and have the headstock and tailstock misaligned. But that seems to be the case.

My Oneway has the tailstock guide block bolted to the bottom of the tailstock casting. Is yours like that, and could you adjust its orientation to align the tailstock with the ways? You said that the tailstock alignment changed over a period of months- there must be something that changed there.

I guess you could devise four blocks clamped to the ways and threaded for lateral screws bearing on the front and back of the headstock to adjust and hold it in place while you lock it down.

Honestly, if I had a properly functioning PM 3520 alongside this problematic lathe whose nameplate suggests kinship to a wart or cyst I would deep six the Wen and not look back. Why is the Powermatic undesirable for small work?

I actually found that shaft. Its got MT2 on one end, and then just a 60 degree dimple for the tailstock. I thought it was double ended, but apparently not. So its not as effective as I thought. It also flexes a bit. I had it in there, brought the tailstock up. I could see that it was slightly misaligned, but when I extended the quill and the point of the live center reached the dimple, the shaft flexed and it went all the way in, and APPEARED as though everything was in alignment.

I'm guessing that's why I stuck it in a drawer and forgot how it was designed... (I've been dealing with this issue since last year when I first disassembled the headstock to get the spindle out for repairs.)

I suspect the flex in the shaft is why it alone isn't allowing me to get things properly aligned just with the shaft. If it HAD been double ended, it might have worked. Maybe...could have still been flex? (IIRC I did look for one, and the short one I found is apparently ALSO machined wrong, and not to an actual correct MT2 spec. It stops hard at a specific point, and wobbles a slight bit. Something I wasn't sure about until today, since I tried it again. I KNOW that my spindle is ok now, and every other MT2 part I have fits into the Wen spindle correctly, tightly, without any shift. The double-ended MT2 part is apparently at too shallow an angle, by just a smidge, and it can't work. Way back when I first got it, I wasn't sure if the issue was that I still had some high spots on the inside of my spindle or not. But I'm sure that I don't, none at least that seem to be causing this kind of problem with any of my other MT2 parts. Its only this one part. So I can't use it to align things, either. (Incredibly ironic that a device intended to help you align your lathe headstock to tailstock, is itself incorrectly manufactured...meh.)

So eh... I'm thinking, keep it simple stupid: just lightly tunk the headstock until I get the pointing correct. And only loose the bolts just barely enough that I can do said light tunking... ??


The powermatic works for most things. But these small ornaments and such, are usually only a couple of inches long. The tool rests I have for the powermatic are HUGE (I don't have any small/narrow tool rests for it, and can't afford one right now....the shaft on any tool rest has to be very tall to work on the PM3520.) So there is this frustrating situation where, I have to try and fit this very, very long tool rest into this very narrow space between the headstock, and the tailstock, with the quill fully extended from the tailstock to get me as much room as possible. I also...don't know if its just the sheer size of the swing, or what, but I seem to have a harder time turning these small things on the big lathe. I think it partly is the swing...I have to lean over quite a bit. When you have say a 1-2" diameter thing, and you are doing fine work, and the lathe's swing is twenty inches...its just, the distances are greater? With the Wen, everything is pretty tight, I have a 4" and a 6" tool rest, everything is right there, and I don't have any of the troubles I've had trying to turn these small things. I'm turning a lot of ornametns right now, but also candle holders, tealight holders, small bud vases, stuff that's usually 6" or smaller.

When I get into the bigger stuff, larger vases, 6, 8, 10" or so, bowls, platters, all that. The powermatic is phenomenal. LOVE using it. Its a vastly, vastly superior lathe, no question. There is just this, small scale issue with it. At some point, I'll get a 4" rest for it, and see if that makes things easier...not sure. The need to lean over and into the lathe, I suspect, will never change, so, I'll probably keep turning small stuff on the smaller lathe. The Wen I may sell at some point, and switch to a Jet (or maybe even a powermatic) with a smaller swing and shorter bed, something I can still put on my workbench. The nice thing about the smaller lathe, is I can even sit on a stool if I want to, which is nice for longer days. Because of the need to lean with the Powermatic....I don't know that I'd ever be comfortable sitting on anything when turning with it...

 

[John K Jordan]

Let me get this straight. Is your second photo, with the point offset, a view straight down? If so, and without deciphering everything you wrote (still have to go down the the barn tonight), that looks like the classic case of a misalignment that we fix by adjusting one lathe foot, again, if this is a picture from the top, try raising the front right lathe foot near the tailstock.

I find my PM3520b perfect for large, long, short, medium, and small things, from delicate ornaments, lidded boxes, and smaller. Things with and without the tailstock.


Two good friends also have the same lathe and make many small and detailed things like I do (except better quality), lots of small boxes, ornaments. I don't understand the problem with small things on the PM except for the lack of small tool rests.

When you get the $$, I will guarantee you can't go wrong with Robust tool rests, just order those with the right post for the PM.
I think I keep 4", 6", 9", and 14" for the PM and a similar set for my second shop lathe, a Jet1642. I prefer the low profile version for small things, the large version for bigger things. I uses these, plus a couple of box tool rests, for everything. I like them far better than those with round rods, the cast iron, and a few custom-made rests. The only Robust rests I wouldn't buy again are the curved ones made for bowls - not because there is anything wrong with them but because I found I simply don't need them - the straight rests will do everything.

Also, at least the last I talked to them, they have an unconditional lifetime warranty.

This is an older picture of some of the Robusts behind the PM - not the complete set.


If I just got one, it would probably be the 6". Small enough to get into tight places, long enough for much "medium" sized work. If doing a lot of very small things, the 4" is great.

In the mean time, know anyone near you that welds. It is SO easy to make useful custom tool rests with a piece of round bar and some steel. I have some made from angled 1/2" steel, a couple made from trimmed angle iron - they can be made any length you want. Should be very cheap, even if you have to pay someone to make them.

I'm not clear on what lathe you are thinking about "thunking" with a hammer, (you prob said but I'm elderly with a weak memory) but I hear a tiny voice telling me to consider reconsidering.

JKJ

 

[musky]

It's good that the up and down is right, as to the view looking down from the top, slide the tailstock up to your headstock with your points in both again, but don't clamp it down. There should be some side to side play in it. Pull the tailstock point in the direction it needs to go to more align with the headstock and tighten it down. If you can line it up that way you are done and home free, and just remember to twist it in that direction before tightening it down when using the lathe. If the out of alignment didn't fully clear up, but got better, leave the tailstock locked down where it is, then loosen the headstock mounting bolts and there should be enough play to align the headstock with your tailstock now. If that works, then tighten it down and leave the headstock locked down, and when using the tailstock just twist it in the direction needed, when needed before locking it down. Once you know what way is needed to align, you don't need to align every time, just twist the tailstock in the direction needed before locking it down.
This isn't a big deal as most every lathe has this clearance in the bed ways as if they didn't, you wouldn't be able to move the tailstock. Yours has quite a bit, but I'm sure after first getting the tailstock as close to aligned as you can, then loosening and retightening your headstock, you should be fine, or at least within a few thousandths. Even my Robust has some play, not as much as yours, but some that can easily be adjusted with by pulling on the tailstock before tightening.
The fact of the matter is, for the most part this is not an important thing in woodturning except when drilling.
If you still think it is a problem after those steps, you actually have other issues, bad morse taper inserts, bad morse tapers on the lathe, or a lathe that is twisted and out of alignment. Your odds of cleaning up a morse taper insert such as your Beal, are almost impossible, just get new ones. If you have affected the tapers on your lathe because of bad taper inserts, you can try to clean it up with a reamer, or some wet and dry wrapped around a good taper, but that is hit and miss as those tapers, are probably hardened. If your inserts just don't just plunk in and stick on their own, one or the other is bad.
A twisted lathe bed can be checked easily with a machinist level such as a Starrett. Just set the level across the ways by the headstock, and then across at the tailstock end. Simple adjustment, carpenters level won't work here except in extreme out of level.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

It sounds like you are in business. Buy or have made some short tool rests for the Powermatic and sell some pieces to pay for them. Robust rests are excellent and available with long posts. How much time have you wasted trying to get good results from an inaccurate lathe and trying to get it tuned up? Just my $.02.

 

[Jon Rista]

@musky @John K Jordan I rose the right front tailstock foot... The bed was no longer level, and trying to move the banjo around became very difficult (I actually added a couple of notable scrapes to the bed trying.) I don't think its a bed leveling issue...I leveled it when I put it on there, and it seems to, according to my engineering square, maintained its level status.

I did manage to just barely loose the front two bolts on the headstock of the WEN lathe, without removing the motor (its really hard since I can't see what I'm doing since the bolts are under the table.) I then just used a small block of wood I had, and tunked on the headstock until the two points met up. It took a while, and a couple of overshoots, but it is dead on now, from above and to the side. The bed has been re-leveled so that my engineering square sits flat, and touches both ways, all the way across the ways, all the way down their length. So I think everything is leveled and angled properly now. I tightened the headstock bolts as best I could. To get them truly tight, I'd probably need to remove the motor...which will be a project for another day. The wen clamps for the banjo and tailstock are very weirdly designed. That may be a fundamental design problem with the lathe. I actually think they fixed this with a revised version of the lathe they sell now (they don't sell this exact one...I think three parts were replaced in the newer model, and I'm pretty sure the clamps for the banjo and tailstock were two of them...I think they are round discs now, like most lathes use.) It may be that this odd design is why the banjo binds up if I don't have a perfectly level bed.

In any case...I think, with a heck of a lot of tunking with a chunk of wood (not a hammer), I have finally managed to get the angle of the headstock fixed. I can't say it won't shift again, as the bolts are not totally tight, but I'll deal with that another day. I still have to do some testing, but, I think this should improve any drilling work that I do now. That will be the real test, I think...if I can get a truly strait hole drilled from front to back on say a 3" pen blank.

FWIW, all my rests are robust, except the two that came with the lathes, and this one S-curved one that ended up having a post with too small a diameter (so I've never used it). I had a bunch of short post robust from before I bought the Powermatic. The Laguna and Wen were able to use the same ones. I did buy a couple of Robust rests for turning bowls and such, with longer posts for the Powermatic. I just never bought a short one with a long post. It'll happen at some point here, just can't right now. I do love the robust rests though.

 

[John K Jordan]

If you need to raise lower a foot more than a turn or two something else is wrong.

 

[Jon Rista]

If you need to raise lower a foot more than a turn or two something else is wrong.

I don't think it was a bed problem. The headstock was the only thing that changed, when I took out the spindle. I think it was just an angle problem, which I think I've corrected now.

Wen used to use this...contraption. Its a piece of metal, with two flat flanges that ride under the ways, and are brought up to provide clamping pressure when you tighten the lever, then two "bent up" (literally, the metal is bent, probably around a round rod) wings that fit right into the gap between the ways. There is not much clearance between the inside walls of the two ways, and these bent up flanges or wings that fit in there. If the bed isn't perfectly level, then I think these wings ride the walls...

I could probably buy the replacement parts for the newer model of this lathe, and just get rid of these janky things, and replace them with the circular discs that I think they use in the new model. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

BTW, for those who haven't made one, a round mallet such as carvers use is a quick and easy project. I've been using one I made from Dogwood for a LONG time.

View attachment 68823

I like Dogwood for it's strength, weight, and fine grain. And it grows locally - all I have came from my farm.
Some other good options include Persimmon (American Ebony, woods here are full of it), Hickory, maybe Bradford Pear or Purple Heart, Pau Marfim (guatambu), and of course, Lignum Vitae, etc.

I have made mallets from dogwood, osage orange, mulberry, and persimmon. I haven't made one out of hop-hornbeam yet, but that would make a good mallet, too.

I think this dogwood mallet is the first thing I turned when I got my lathe. I use it every day.



Some others. Osage, mulberry (which was wet), dogwood, black locust, Osage, Osage.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I don't think it was a bed problem. The headstock was the only thing that changed, when I took out the spindle. I think it was just an angle problem, which I think I've corrected now.

Wen used to use this...contraption. Its a piece of metal, with two flat flanges that ride under the ways, and are brought up to provide clamping pressure when you tighten the lever, then two "bent up" (literally, the metal is bent, probably around a round rod) wings that fit right into the gap between the ways. There is not much clearance between the inside walls of the two ways, and these bent up flanges or wings that fit in there. If the bed isn't perfectly level, then I think these wings ride the walls...

I could probably buy the replacement parts for the newer model of this lathe, and just get rid of these janky things, and replace them with the circular discs that I think they use in the new model. 🤷‍♂️

I used that Wen lathe for about a year. It's a good lathe for the money. However, you will grow out of it. I wouldn't spend any more money on it than you have to. Instead, I'd start saving for your first real lathe. I went with the Rikon 70-1824 FWIW.

 

[Jon Rista]

I used that Wen lathe for about a year. It's a good lathe for the money. However, you will grow out of it. I wouldn't spend any more money on it than you have to. Instead, I'd start saving for your first real lathe. I went with the Rikon 70-1824 FWIW.

I own a Powermatic 3520C. I think I'm pretty good there.

I use the Wen for small stuff. I just have a harder time turning small things on the big lathe. Anything else gets turned on the Powermatic, though. Vastly superior lathe, for sure.

I had a Nova Comet 14DR originally. Boy, that thing was a DISASTER. It really turned me off on Teknatool products...that whole experience, their tech support, the EXTREMELY LONG (months and months) time they had the lathe for repairs, etc. I bought the Wen after they seemed to ghost me and I thought I'd never get the Nova back (whcih then showed up about two months after I bought the Wen!) The Wen has actually been rock solid since the end of November 2020, when I got it. The damage, and the issues I've described in this thread, were the result of a badly manufactured MT2 taper on the Beall 3-wheel buffing system, which Lee corrected, and my own fault for not putting the headstock back on properly. Outside of this, the Wen has been quite reliable, and lets me get really close to things (I am nearsighted, my glasses make me far sighted, so I'm often taking my glasses off and getting quite close to many of the smaller turnings I'm making, and thats just harder to do with the Powermatic.)

Anyway, I had a Laguna Revo 1524 for a while. Had a lot of problems with that as well, and Laguna completely ghosted me after a while. I finally gave up, and bought the Powermatic, which has been flawless since Feb. 2022, and sold the Laguna. I think the Powermatic is my lifetime lathe. Its probably not quite at the level of a Robust, and I'd love one of those, but the Powermatic is really wonderful nevertheless.

 

[Jon Rista]

I have made mallets from dogwood, osage orange, mulberry, and persimmon. I haven't made one out of hop-hornbeam yet, but that would make a good mallet, too.

I think this dogwood mallet is the first thing I turned when I got my lathe. I use it every day.

View attachment 68928

Some others. Osage, mulberry (which was wet), dogwood, black locust, Osage, Osage.

View attachment 68927

I've never actually made a mallet. I guess its time. I still have some optimization to do with the Wen headstock angle. Drilling has improved dramatically, but, it is still off. I am now getting drilled holes, in pen blanks currently, that are larger on the entry side, than they are on the exit side. The exit side is now much better centered than previously, since my first attempt to correct the angle, but the enlarged hold on the entry side is not great...I've been having to fill in in additional epoxy around the brass tubes once inserted after the initial glueup dries. Its not as bad as it was, where the holes were so much large that the tubes just didn't even fit, or the blanks ended up paper thin.

I may just stick to drilling on the powermatic, though, as its just...perfect.

Regarding mallets... What is the best wood for one? I imagine a mallet needs a pretty good balance of hardness vs. spring/rebound?

 

[Jon Rista]

If you need to raise lower a foot more than a turn or two something else is wrong.

I raised it probably a little less than two turns... Still, the bed then ended up crooked.

Adjusting only the head stock angle seems to have corrected the majority of the issue. Drilling is still not optimal. I can probably dial it in more. or maybe just stick to the Powermatic for drilling. Its much better than it was, though...holes no longer come out way off centered on the opposite end of a blank now. I'm making some 3/4" pen blanks, and decided to try drilling on the Wen, and the holes are mostly centered. Offset is slight, and the entry hole side are still getting enlarged a little bit.

 

[musky]

I raised it probably a little less than two turns... Still, the bed then ended up crooked.

Adjusting only the head stock angle seems to have corrected the majority of the issue. Drilling is still not optimal. I can probably dial it in more. or maybe just stick to the Powermatic for drilling. Its much better than it was, though...holes no longer come out way off centered on the opposite end of a blank now. I'm making some 3/4" pen blanks, and decided to try drilling on the Wen, and the holes are mostly centered. Offset is slight, and the entry hole side are still getting enlarged a little bit.

I would never adjust one of the leveling bolts on a lathe foot to bring the points into alignment unless you knew the lathe bed was actually twisted to begin with. Anything more than a flat or two is a lot, one to two turns is a real lot. You might want to ask around to friends in your woodturning club to see if someone has a machinist level you could borrow to truly be able to see if your bed is twisted. It will easily be shown with a level such as a Sterrett as they will read .005 over a foot or better, so 5"-6" across tour lathe bed would mean you can get it straight to within .002". Once the bed is straight you can work at aligning the headstock and tailstock.
Another advantage in getting the twist out of your lathe bed, is you will end up with the least vibration that your lathe is capable of.

 

[John K Jordan]

Fact is, over the years I and others have aligned the points of wood lathes with small foot adjustments.
Every time I move a lathe I check and adjust if needed. Only takes a few seconds.

A level bed on a wood lathe is almost never a problem. Even my shop floor is not level (on purpose) - makes no difference.

Instead of precision levels, checking for bed twist can be done with simple winding sticks or two good straight edges, the longer the better, used as winding sticks. These make it easy to detect a twist. Since much cast iron is surprisingly flexible, the bed can easily become twisted..

For those not familiar with winding sticks, there is much information on the internet. Here is one article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winding_stick

For woodturning, a minor misalignment is usually of no importance except for certain precision tasks when the tailstock is close to the headstock (for one example, precision drilling.) Turning bowls?, chair legs?, hollow forms? Misalignment is not a problem.

But analyzing a problem includes checking for and fixing things like worn bolts or holes in a fixed headstock. Dirt/grit/sawdust/grime (dried finish?) under a sliding headstock/tailstock. Slop in the mating surfaces of those things that slide in the bed ways? A different problem.

If unsure, a visit from someone with experience might provide a fresh perspective.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Regarding mallets... What is the best wood for one? I imagine a mallet needs a pretty good balance of hardness vs. spring/rebound?

I just use the hardest woods I have. I suppose there's a use case for a "soft" mallet. Something like box elder, sassafras, cedar, etc.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I own a Powermatic 3520C. I think I'm pretty good there.

Yeah, I went back and reread a bit more closely.

 

[John K Jordan]

I suppose there's a use case for a "soft" mallet. Something like box elder, sassafras, cedar, etc.

I made my wife a rolling pin from balsa wood in case she feels the need to correct my behavior.
(Just kidding, My Lovely Bride of 54 years is the kindest and most gentle person I know!)

 

[Neil S]

Be aware that kissing centres doesn't necessarily mean that the head and tailstock are co-axially aligned.

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The further the head and tailstock are apart the more pronounced this this misalignment problem will be. You can check for it by sighting through the bore from the rear of the head and tailstocks when the tailstock is at its limit of travel to its end of the bed.

 

[John K Jordan]

You can check for it by sighting through the bore

Or with a dial indicator.

 

[Neil S]

Or with a dial indicator.

Indeed, if you have one and know how to setup and use it...
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[Jon Rista]

Be aware that kissing centres doesn't necessarily mean that the head and tailstock are co-axially aligned.

View attachment 69009​

The further the head and tailstock are apart the more pronounced this this misalignment problem will be. You can check for it by sighting through the bore from the rear of the head and tailstocks when the tailstock is at its limit of travel to its end of the bed.

I agree, and I understand this.

It is still not perfectly aligned, and I'm not sure what needs to be aligned at this point.

What I do know, is that the headstock was defintiely angled wrong, and that was readily apparent in the way things drilled on this lathe. Centered hole at the tailstock end of a blank, non-centered at the other end when the bit came out.

Since I have readjusted the headstock angle, that problem is mostly corrected.

At this point, I am honestly not sure what needs to be corrected. Due to the quirky block that wen uses for the block in the banjo and tailstock, adjusting the bed results in much, much choppier movement in both. The ways were also in alignment originally (they were perfectly level with each other) and ended up out of level with each other after I adjusted the one foot to try and correct the pointing issue earlier. So the bed is now back to perfectly level, which eliminates the issues moving the banjo and tailstock around.

There is still a bit of misalignment. Interestingly, when I use my alignming rod, which has an MT2 on one end (for the headstock) and a 60 degree dimple on the other (for the tailstock with a 60 deg live center), it is actually not quite in alignment. This rod is about a foot or so long.

Things are currently MUCH better than they were. The headstock angle was off quite a bit, so it was affecting the things I've been turnign lately. Even though its not perfect, its a lot better now, and I no longer have the issues I was having when I started this thread. I still won't rill on this...and I'll keep drilling on the Powermatic, or maybe my drill press (which itself, I think needs some alignment work.) For turning things 6" or less, though, the Wen should be fine now, compared to how it was.

 

[john lucas]

just a thought. the drill bit might not be true. especially if it's been sharpened at home. if the point isn't exactly center it will drift in tge cut. same is true if one of the wings is duller than the other one.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Wanting to get the same precision in a cheap low cost $400. China lathe as in a N.American $4000 lathe is just not going to happen.
Sell that problem lathe and get a better lathe might make you happy.

 

[John K Jordan]

just a thought. the drill bit might not be true. especially if it's been sharpened at home. if the point isn't exactly center it will drift in tge cut. same is true if one of the wings is duller than the other one.

That's a good point, no pun intended. And the bit needs to be sharp! It took me a long time to learn to sharpen, especially large diameter bits.

Some things that cause drifting are, (in my opinion) and experience:

• Sharp bits, as mentioned. Sometimes not mentioned - spiral flutes should be sharp, not dull or damaged.
• Slightly bent drill bit, maybe too slight to notice. Examine by rolling on a flat surface (surface plate is ideal)
• No or improper starting hole (I always use center bits or a starter bit). Starting the hole is more than half the battle.
• For larger bits, drilling a starter hole with a smaller bit can sometimes help.
• Wood grain - if not straight, the bit can follow the grain if other things aren't right.
• Too long a bit might flex. If drilling a a deep hole, I start the hole with a short stub (screw machine) bit, drill as deep as it will go, then switch to the longer bit.
• Vibration, wobbling of wood and/or bit. For a deep hole, it's helpful to turn at least the end of the blank round then steady with the hand.
• Speed too slow. If very slow, the bit can wobble more. I find a higher speed can help (for several reasons).
• Sloppy hardware. High quality Jacob's chuck. Clean 2MT on both chuck and tailstock.
• Sloppy hardware 2 - even better, eliminate the Jacob's chuck completely and use taper shank bits for both small and large dia holes.
• Sloppy hardware 3 - low precision lathe construction (as mentioned elsewhere)
• Along with that, the MT surfaces should not be damaged. A MT on the Jacob's chuck can twist if the bit catches and cause galling. A reamer can repair bad galling.
• Clean, round drill bit shank with no problems. Some develop burrs or galling. Use a file to repair or grab a different bit.
• High quality bits. Expensive, but can make a huge difference in the Big Picture.

​

That's all I can think of at the moment. I can say I haven't had a wandering drill bit for a long time.

A set of center bits are cheap, made for metal turning without live centers.
If possible, I choose one whose outer diameter is a bit larger than the drill bit.
I keep one in a spare Jacob's chuck at all times.


Two ways to prevent bits and Jacob's chuck from rotating in the tailstock:

1) I use a rod that perfectly fits the chuck key hole in the chuck.
A good strap wrench also could work.


2) Keep taper shank bits from rotating with small channel lock pliers, or vise grips.


If without one, this is great for clean 2MT sockets. There are other methods.


JKJ

 

[Neil S]

Some things that cause drifting are, (in my opinion and experience:


JKJ

Nice clinic there on the causes and remedies, JKJ.
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