I bought some 12/4 cherry from a local dealer today and went straight to the shop and started to turn what I thought would be a nice box. I had two pieces glued together and shaped into a ball, after hollowing one half out (3/16" thick) I put the two halves back together to check my progress and the hollowed half was out of round by 1/8". Is this normal with kiln dried lumber? If so what should I do in the future to avoid this from happening.
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lidded boxes
- Thread starter ryan34
- Start date
John Van Domelen
Retired Forum Admin
Had you sanded the box? Heat from sanding can deform thin turnings.
Or maybe just that particular piece of wood, once turned, had enough of the internal stresses released to deform.
Or maybe just that particular piece of wood, once turned, had enough of the internal stresses released to deform.
Jovan,
It is often a good idea to rough turn your wood that you will be using for boxes and let them sit for a day or two or longer, or so I have read and also find to be true. End grain needs this to some extent, and face grain seems impossible to get a tight fit on the lid as it is always moving according the humidity. That's what I have found from my limited box building experience.
Al
It is often a good idea to rough turn your wood that you will be using for boxes and let them sit for a day or two or longer, or so I have read and also find to be true. End grain needs this to some extent, and face grain seems impossible to get a tight fit on the lid as it is always moving according the humidity. That's what I have found from my limited box building experience.
Al
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An eighth in six inches? You sure it's out of round? That's a lot of difference, even on a straight-sided piece like a box. Unless your supplier was storing it on the ground and your shop is fully dehumidified by air conditioning, I wouldn't think you'd get that much. Especially in a long-grain configuration.
If you could "put them back together," sounds like it may not be shrink as much as hold. Especially if you can rotate the lid around. Bad hold will give you ovalling, so I'm told
, so examine the long and the short of the opening and see if it's the wood or the hold.
You can TDT on a box, too. Since I only make boxes when I'm impatient, I Turn, Dry in the micro, and True after to make sure my interior/exterior gradient doesn't get me.
If you could "put them back together," sounds like it may not be shrink as much as hold. Especially if you can rotate the lid around. Bad hold will give you ovalling, so I'm told
, so examine the long and the short of the opening and see if it's the wood or the hold. You can TDT on a box, too. Since I only make boxes when I'm impatient, I Turn, Dry in the micro, and True after to make sure my interior/exterior gradient doesn't get me.
R
Ron Sardo
Guest
You really can't kiln dry wood that is over 2" thick.
Your 12/4 cherry was still "green" in the center.
Next time, rough turn then let it dry before finish turning.
Your 12/4 cherry was still "green" in the center.
Next time, rough turn then let it dry before finish turning.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Ryan If it was long grain vs end grain you will get a fair amount of movement in one direction and it will go oval. I usually try to turn boxes end grain but I do like to make my lids side grain. This causes a problem because the lid will move with the seasons and not fit correctly. I try to make the lids loose on these or make the box small so movement isn't as much of a problem.
I would agree the wood may not be totally dry. I will often partially turn a box and then microwave it to dry it completely. The problem with that is that the tenon will try to check so you have to take it slow. I'll nuke it for a minute and then let it sit and cool while I do other things and whenever I go back into the house nuke it again. It takes about a day to do it this way but it doesn't eat up much of my time and it drys slow enough not to check. If I'm really worried about checking I'll wrap a paper towel around it after each nuke cycle to slow down the moisture loss.
If you can get hold of John Jordan's video on the woodmovement and the Aesthetics of wood it will explain in very clear terms how wood moves and why.
Also turning thin will often relieve stresses in dry wood and the wood will move. How many times have you ripped a 2x4 into strips and had them come out perfectly straight. Turners tend to use wood that other flat workers wouldn't use. This wood often has more internal stress and will move. Branch wood is the worst. If you see the pith off center odds are the tree was leaning or it was branch wood. This wood will often move a lot.
I would agree the wood may not be totally dry. I will often partially turn a box and then microwave it to dry it completely. The problem with that is that the tenon will try to check so you have to take it slow. I'll nuke it for a minute and then let it sit and cool while I do other things and whenever I go back into the house nuke it again. It takes about a day to do it this way but it doesn't eat up much of my time and it drys slow enough not to check. If I'm really worried about checking I'll wrap a paper towel around it after each nuke cycle to slow down the moisture loss.
If you can get hold of John Jordan's video on the woodmovement and the Aesthetics of wood it will explain in very clear terms how wood moves and why.
Also turning thin will often relieve stresses in dry wood and the wood will move. How many times have you ripped a 2x4 into strips and had them come out perfectly straight. Turners tend to use wood that other flat workers wouldn't use. This wood often has more internal stress and will move. Branch wood is the worst. If you see the pith off center odds are the tree was leaning or it was branch wood. This wood will often move a lot.
boxes with burl
burls grain pattern seems to me to be mixed or swirled???
the eyes run one way and the rays run one way, which would be endgrain or which way would you expect movement???
burls grain pattern seems to me to be mixed or swirled???
the eyes run one way and the rays run one way, which would be endgrain or which way would you expect movement???
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
In my limited experience with a burls they don't move. Or at least not nearly as much as straight grained stuff. Sometimes on thin walled burls I get lumps where it dries unevenly. I don't have much experience with wet wood burls. They may move more.
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Try this trick on boxes. Select the piece, turn both tendons, seperate the top and bottom and rough in the hollowing on both. Then tape the two tendons end to end and set the piece up on a shelf for about 6 months. You have relieved the stresses, allowed the piece to dry, move and not crack. Then when you're ready, the entire process takes only minutes and you have perfect boxes. I normally prep a dozen or so at time.
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Captain Eddie said:
Or mark the thick and a half top and bottom with witness marks as you will later when matching the grain to tape the top and bottom together for finishing. Six months isn't required, and the piece may still move. If you true it in the dead of winter at 5% MC, it'll be a really tight fit at 15%, if at all.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Eddie I'm making more and more boxes so I'll have to try your technique. I usually do my best to find dry wood but I'm getting a pretty good collection of green wood that would be perfect for boxes on down the line.
In a rush I use the microwave technique but I need to rough turn a bunch and get them on the shelf to dry. Do you seal the endgrain on the inside of the boxes? taping the tenons together probably seals the endgrain on that side.
In a rush I use the microwave technique but I need to rough turn a bunch and get them on the shelf to dry. Do you seal the endgrain on the inside of the boxes? taping the tenons together probably seals the endgrain on that side.
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I have made quite a few boxes, all end grain and all from green wood. I consider a box just as would a bowl. By that I mean I rough turn it, coat only the end grain with anchorseal (thinly because boxes are small) put a date on it and number the top and the bottom so you know what goes where when you get back to it. They are roughed so quickly, I have boxes that I forgot I roughed out over 1.5 yrs ago. They take up very little space, so do a bunch of them. This way you always have something to finish. Bowls are the same. If you rough a bunch of them, you always have them to finish. Green wood is almost always free too. Practice your techniques on the green stuff you rough out so when you get to finishing them you have another 6 mos or more experience in finishing cuts, end grain hollowing, whatever.
Someone mentioned heat from sanding causing movement. Take that to the bank! I have done this many times. Sand slowly on thin boxes where you really want a nice fit!! I aim for a suction fit and if i am careful sanding, it's no problem. I will try to attach my first box attempt. This happens to be my BEST box simply because I took my time and followed a book. I have made nice ones since but this one will always be my favorite!
Someone mentioned heat from sanding causing movement. Take that to the bank! I have done this many times. Sand slowly on thin boxes where you really want a nice fit!! I aim for a suction fit and if i am careful sanding, it's no problem. I will try to attach my first box attempt. This happens to be my BEST box simply because I took my time and followed a book. I have made nice ones since but this one will always be my favorite!
Attachments
I make and sell a lot of lidded boxes. I put a tenon on each end, split them and rough out the inside of each piece. I then soak them in DNA for about 48 hrs. I then let flash dry, tape the two tenons together, wrap in brown paper sack and cut a hole on the ends. I let them dry from 2 to 4 weeks. Put back on the lathe and do the finial turning. Haven't had a problem with lids yet.
I have had with 12/4 wood the first time I turned a box move. Someone said that it is not dry at all. Kiln drying that thick of wood does not dry it totally.
I have had with 12/4 wood the first time I turned a box move. Someone said that it is not dry at all. Kiln drying that thick of wood does not dry it totally.
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Dna
DNA.... is that denatured alcohol or.........?
DNA.... is that denatured alcohol or.........?
Yes denatured alcohol.
I'm like Bernie and Eddie. 'Dry' wood is roughed and stored as Eddie suggested, 'Wet' I treat as Bernie described. I store everything in one of those small 'banker boxes', keeping 20 or 30 rough outs availble. Looked last night and the box was kinda of empty, need to get after it.
Frank
Frank
Box making
I find making a box with a good snap tight lid to be one of the great joys of turning. All of the methods outlined seem good many I've even tried. For green woods I turn the basic shape, cut tenons on both side, hollow, than let sit in saw dust in a paper bag for a couple of weeks. I then true everything up. I've had very few pieces not fit after this process. One caution is to not rough turn the box and lid to thin if you know the wood may move a lot. I've noticed this is particularly true with all the Eucalyptus species.
Also as someone else said straight grained wood seems to move more than burls and other complex grain patterns.
I generally make boxes with hollowed lids I find these tend to be more forgiving as far as lid fitting than non-hollowed lids.
Here's a pick of a recent favorite:
I find making a box with a good snap tight lid to be one of the great joys of turning. All of the methods outlined seem good many I've even tried. For green woods I turn the basic shape, cut tenons on both side, hollow, than let sit in saw dust in a paper bag for a couple of weeks. I then true everything up. I've had very few pieces not fit after this process. One caution is to not rough turn the box and lid to thin if you know the wood may move a lot. I've noticed this is particularly true with all the Eucalyptus species.
Also as someone else said straight grained wood seems to move more than burls and other complex grain patterns.
I generally make boxes with hollowed lids I find these tend to be more forgiving as far as lid fitting than non-hollowed lids.
Here's a pick of a recent favorite:
