Large (32") Walnut Vase

[Randy Anderson]

I have a huge stockpile of large walnut that my nephew brought to me a few months ago. It was cut from a tree that blew over in the hurricane they had last summer along the gulf coast. I ended up getting most all of the tree, including the massive root ball. I started yesterday on the first of quite a few large pieces and decided I would try to keep up with a project thread on the process. Here are some pics of getting it into the shop with my tractor, rolled in place and then lifted up with my ceiling hoist I have over the lathe. I forgot to take a pic of the hoist process. Per the online log weight charts it weighs approx. 300lbs. I was able to peel off the bark with a pry bar in about 45 minutes rather than try and deal with it on the lathe. Worth the time vs the absolute mess and fight it can be with a rouging gouge.

I currently have the Clark 1 1/4" hollowing bar setup but have ordered his 1 3/4" bar setup for this one and others to come. I've hollowed to 32" before with what I have but even with an 1 1/4" bar it's a tough slog and battle for the last 12-15", depending on the wood. I debated hollowing from both ends, a viable option I've done before, but would prefer not to. The goal for the next couple of days is to decide on which end will be top and bottom and begin shaping. It's 33" x 16".

 

[Tim McCoy]

Randy,
Can't wait to see the progress of this project. I hope you post some pictures of it.

As for picking which end will be the top and bottom, I like to use the philosophy of Japanese woodworker, Tadao Arimoto, that a piece of wood should stand as it stands in nature. If you can figure out which way was up, that could help you decide. I know sometimes that it just won't work out that way, but it is a good starting point.

Tim

 

[Randy Anderson]

Tim, standing as it grew is often a good choice, if I can determine it. Sometimes it's just a subjective decision you have to make. For smaller pieces I get a basic shape and then stand it on my bench to look at it upright from different angles. Amazing how often my opinion of shape and top vs bottom will vary vs what it looked like horizontal on the lathe. A shape profile on the lathe can look all wrong standing up on my bench. Not an option with this piece. Still far too heavy for me to wrestle around on and off the machine.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Basic shaping done. Since it's still just between a spur drive and live center I need to flip it around and mount with the tenon I currently have on the tail stock end. I can then focus on final shape, cleaning up the curve profile and putting my steady rest collar on the top. I typically turn an oversized tenon on the top, knowing I will turn it off after drying and second turning. Current thinking is the fat end is the bottom. Seems to flow better with the grain patterns best I can tell so far. Will see. I need to stop for a break anyway. Mountain of chips to high to even work around the lathe.

 

[Gregory Hickman]

I like to use the philosophy of Japanese woodworker, Tadao Arimoto, that a piece of wood should stand as it stands in nature.

I like this philosophy. I doubt I'll be turning anything from a full log to apply it though.

Gregory

 

[Randy Anderson]

End of day step 2 done - outside shaping. Top is at tail stock end. Dia 15 1/2", 32 1/4" tall. You can tell on the top half where I thought I was done, started cleaning up and then caught my eye that I very slightly lost my curve a little less than halfway down. Went back and took about a 16th off from there, tapered to the top. I spend a lot of time going back and forth, different angles, stand it up on the bench if I can (leaving chuck on to keep alignment true) to make sure the curves flow and don't flatten out or ever so slightly change angle out of line with the rest of the surface. It's hard to get right and something I struggle with, especially on larger pieces. Sometimes all it takes is a few passes with a NR scraper to fix the issue. This will get a second turning once dry but critical I think to start right rather than think I'll fix it then. Will start hollowing in a couple of days. Wrapped in plastic until then.

 

[Paul Lajoie]

About all I can say right now Randy, is WOW!
That’s huge! Walnut is my favorite to turn. I’ll definitely be watching this thread

 

[Randy Anderson]

Plan to at least drill my pilot hole today. Needed to get the steady rest in place on the collar I turned. I should have made the collar just a bit taller but the wheels have a good enough purchase to hold well. If it begins to look like I need more I'll bring up the center again and add about 1/4" to it. Doing that also changes the top size a bit, changing that means more shaping, etc, etc. I included a picture of the lift system I use. Same setup for the intimal mounting. Here I simply lift to get decent tension on the ropes then tap a block under the end and slide the tail stock away. Hopefully it doesn't drop or move. Usually doesn't. Then mount the steady rest and push the bottom wheels in, tighten them down and give it a slow test spin. If it spins true then bring the top wheel down and tighten it. Remove the hoist rigging and all set for the next steps. Remember to move the tool rest outside the steady rest. More than a few times I've gotten all set up and then realized my tool rest is to the left, up against the head stock - start over.

Safety note: You can't see it but under the bottom of the piece I have a rope tied between the two large loops going around the blank. Without this on a curved piece the ropes can slip up and out along the curves on both ends. Net, the piece can slide out of the loops. Not usually an issue with a rough log that's still basically a cylinder but here, especially with the slick plastic wrap, it can happen. Some day I intend to make a woven cradle instead of the two loops.

 

[Randy Anderson]

With steady rest in place.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Drilling the pilot hole.

I've tried a number of different methods for drilling a pilot hole in my large pieces and this, so far, seems to be an effective one. I start out with a short 1/2" bit to get a good start on the hole. I then switch to a longer 12" bit and then finish with a 17 1/2" auger bit. That's as deep as I go with 1/2" bits. I do that work with a Jacobs chuck mounted in the tail stock being sure to back out and clear the bit often. From there I switch to a hand drill using Milwaukee switchblade bits. You can get them in various sizes online or at one of the big HW stores. I've been using the 1 3/8" bit lately but have done them with the 2 1/8" and even the 2 1/2". In the past I would use a Jacobs chuck in the tail stock for the larger bits but the torque, stress and wear and tear on the chuck, the quill in the tail stock and the tail stock itself is just too much. After destroying a few jacobs chucks and chewing up tapers I decided it was time for a different solution. The old fashioned way - by hand. It takes a big powerful hand drill with a handle and a few extensions. Using the tool rest to absorb the torque it doesn't take that long to bore the hole. This one is drilled to 31 1/2". The smaller 1 3/8" hole does mean a bit more wood to hollow out but in the big picture it's a lot easier than trying to punch a 2 1/2" hole that deep. I've done it more than a few times and it's a tough chore.

Drilling that deep there's no way to avoid hole wobble. By the time you get to the bottom it will have some degree of corkscrew to it. The bit flexes, the extensions will flex and wiggle at the joints, the bit will follow the pith or weak spots in the wood, your angle of holding the drill can be slightly off, etc. Starting with a straight hole helps but I've not been able to avoid some degree of being off center by the time I get to the bottom. Just takes a bit of work with the hollowing bar to get it centered again and then you're back in business. The 1 3/8" hole actually makes it easier to work with than a larger dia hole at that depth.

Safety note: be careful and take it slow and easy. If the drill binds up it can easily twist around and break a finger or a wrist. Use the tool rest to absorb the torque but even then be careful. Clear the chips often. All the way out of the hole. I've had one bind up deep inside, chuck and all, and then had to hollow around it to finally get it out.

 

[Maggie Shapiro]

This is so fascinating! I can't even fathom how difficult it must be to hollow out a piece this large. Really looking forward to seeing how you do it, and also the final piece. The shape is gorgeous 😍

 

[Randy Anderson]

Thanks Maggie. The right tools help a lot but, things are still big and heavy, even the tools. Glad you like the shape. I get it right most of the time but it's not uncommon to think I'm done, go inside for lunch and come back out and wonder what I was thinking. There's no substitute for standing them up on the bench, leaving for overnight and then look again the next morning. Not uncommon to remount and adjust the shape a bit. Not really and option here.

 

[Randy Anderson]

I'll be waiting about a week to start the hollowing. Keith Clark had to do some modifications to the larger hollowing setup for me to accommodate my shop space and it will take a bit for the new HW to arrive. I could have started on the hollowing with my current 1 1/4" setup but I know from experience that the last 12" or so in a piece this size would be a very rough ride. I also didn't feel comfortable hollowing essentially the top half and then setting aside. The difference in thickness and possible drying could create issues. Until my new/larger HW arrives I have it wrapped in plastic sitting on a large furniture dolly out of the way.

Tools & Turning

For initial rouging I use a standard 2" rouging gouge until I get a cylinder shape. I'll then put a bit of a taper on each end but not too much. It's easy to get too far around the end and begin to cut mostly end grain. Not something that's safe to do with a roughing gouge. I then take a 1" roughing gouge that I've ground with the same profile as a spindle gouge (very close to what's called a continental gouge) and work to get very close to final shape. I use a standard 1/2" spindle gouge to put a tenon on the tail stock end. Once I flip the piece and have it mounted on the tenon in the head stock I'll use my standard 1/2" spindle gouge to refine the shape and clean things up.

Safety Note: Be very careful when working with the large rouging gouge. On pieces with numerous high and low spots it's easy to have a high spot catch the left or right wing of the gouge and grab the tool. Even at low RPMs that much mass is quite a shock to your tool and body. You can rotate the tool a bit to keep it from catching on the high side but it can still grab and surprise you. I've found working the entire length, working the high spots directly and then moving the tool rest in, working the full length again, moving in, etc. is a much safer approach. Don't try to get a smooth cylinder shape and then expect to move over and work the next 12" or so down to that same level if the difference in height is too much.

 

[John K Jordan]

Fascinating! I'll prob never turn something like that but I can't wait for the next installment!

Kind of reminds me of following the play-by-play of one on David Mark's blog a few years back.



JKJ

 

[Randy Anderson]

John, I've watched some of his large vessel turning videos. Very inspirational and some good tips to pick up for dealing with large pieces. I don't have the artistic eye for the embellishments he adds but I do like his approach to forms. The pottery and glass artists figured it out long ago. No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[John K Jordan]

IMO, David is inspirational about everything.

I met him in a bowl class almost 20 years ago, a real treat.
I got a great piece of burl with birds eye figure from him.
Still waiting until I get good enough to turn it! Maybe in another 20 years...



JKJ

 

[Jeff Struewing]

End of day step 2 done - outside shaping. Top is at tail stock end. Dia 15 1/2", 32 1/4" tall. You can tell on the top half where I thought I was done, started cleaning up and then caught my eye that I very slightly lost my curve a little less than halfway down. Went back and took about a 16th off from there, tapered to the top. I spend a lot of time going back and forth, different angles, stand it up on the bench if I can (leaving chuck on to keep alignment true) to make sure the curves flow and don't flatten out or ever so slightly change angle out of line with the rest of the surface. It's hard to get right and something I struggle with, especially on larger pieces. Sometimes all it takes is a few passes with a NR scraper to fix the issue. This will get a second turning once dry but critical I think to start right rather than think I'll fix it then. Will start hollowing in a couple of days. Wrapped in plastic until then.

Love the form, awesome!

 

[Randy Anderson]

Hollowing - Day 1

Started hollowing today. Took a few days longer than planned to get back to it - life happens. I start with my 1 1/4" bar and a cupped carbide cutter slightly tilted. I start by enlarging the opening and working my way down a bit to create some room to maneuver. I don't use the laser for thickness until much later in the process. It's not too hard to keep an eye on the wall thickness or use some improvised calipers to make sure I don't go too far. I try to keep it about 1" thick until I get as far down as I want to go with this bar, or to the bottom on a smaller piece. I can then mount the laser and begin working the inside wall to desired thickness. For a piece this size I went to 3/4". I typically shoot for between 1/2" - 5/8" but this being a larger piece I decided to go a little heavy. There's no sense having the laser and all the support structure to deal with during the entire process since all I'm doing is hogging out the bulk of the material. No precision required.

Once I have a bit of room to maneuver I start by picking up the edge of the pilot hole, get it rounded off since it's almost always off center, then pull up and out toward the edge. I essentially work a funnel shape all the way down. Find the center, true up the opening and then pull out and toward the side. Over and over and over. I stand to the side of the bar, left hand on the bar and tool rest, right hand on the tail end of the bar. After lots of hours at the wheel you get a sense for hand coordination to steer the bar where you want it.

There are times when a push cut can be a huge difference in cut efficiency and ease of cut. That was the case today. Lots of standard pull up and out cuts but also a good number of push cuts down the wall and into the funnel. I go back and forth on approach and there are times when one works better than the other. Trial and error. Also helps with muscle tension and strain from repetitive motion. Once I get close to the final wall thickness I try to avoid push cuts down the wall, especially if the piece curves inward. It's easy to push a bit too hard and create a deep groove or overshoot your wall thickness goal. I finish up with a number of very slow light passes from bottom to top, watching the laser barely graze the side of the piece, trying to keep it as steady as possible.

Clearing chips is more than just about minimizing the mess. On wet wood they will quickly build up and clump on the inside walls and prohibit your ability to maneuver the tool. They can also cause your tool to bind up, bounce and get away from you. Stop often and clear them out. You'll have more room as you go but they'll still get in the way sooner than you think. I don't use my air hose to clear chips. It makes a huge mess, the dust gets all in the air around me and not really that efficient. I have a piece of PVC at an angle on a big hose from my dust collection system. Pull the tool out, stick the tube in and clean up. Works great and keeps the mess to a minimum.

I got to a little over 15" in today with the walls at 3/4", tapered a bit deeper into the pilot hole. It's important to take the time at this stage to do some fine cleanup for the opening. On a piece this size I want to make sure the first 6-8 inches or so are neat, no tool mark ridges or valleys and a consistent surface. Once finished that's about as far in as anyone will be able to see or feel from a typical viewing angle. I may go deeper but no need to go very deep. I have a long NR scraper I use to clean up as far as I can reach inside.

 

[Randy Anderson]

A few more pics - laser setup and NR scraper. Next step is to mount the 1 3/4" bar and hollow to the bottom.

 

[Raymond Rhodes]

WOW!!! That is impressive!!!!

 

[Randy Anderson]

Thanks Raymond. I hope you can follow along to the end. Still a long way to go....

 

[Raymond Rhodes]

Thanks Raymond. I hope you can follow along to the end. Still a long way to go....

I am definitely going to follow. I have never seen anything like that!! It is truly incredible!!!

 

[John K Jordan]

I too am following. Thanks for posting. (can't have too many pictures)

 

[Randy Anderson]

Hollowing Day 2 - Plan B

I mounted up my new 1 3/4" bar (first time to use it) yesterday and made good progress but, at about 8" from the bottom I just could not control the cut enough to keep going. I tried, longer than I should have, to keep at it but then made the decision to hollow the remaining bit from the bottom. I've done it before and not an issue on a piece this size. It's a perfectly OK way to go about hollowing pieces like this. It takes some extra work remounting and then requires a plug to be glued in before finishing but I've done it before and if done well it's very hard to know it was done. There's actually a bit of a benefit in that you can be very sure your bottom thickness is correct and minimize potential for cracking from the bottom being much thicker, especially around the curve, than the rest of the piece.

I had two issues that forced me to stop and regroup. First, my pilot hole was much further off center than normal. The pith was almost dead center of the piece and a fair amount of the wood around it was soft so, my bit wandered and at the bottom was far off center. I debated drilling my pilot hole in stages when I started. Drill some, hollow some, drill some, hollow some. It prevents the hole from wandering but takes extra steps with all the hollowing gear mounted up and in the way. I should have done it that way. The other challenge, other than learning the mechanics and operation of the bigger bar, were scattered knots and internal cracks around the pith in the bottom 8". When that far out hollowing a little bounce in the cut goes a LONG way so knots or cracks would create a bounce or chatter and then I would have to work to get it back to true for a steady cut. After going at it for a long time I decided it was time for Plan B - finish from the bottom. I first cleaned up the top half to thickness and smoothed out the inside wall then remounted this morning.

I turned a jamb chuck with a tenon that matched the top opening and flipped the piece around with the bottom now in the steady rest. I then turned off the bottom tenon, trued up the bottom and drilled a pilot hole from the bottom into the cavity. Using my 1 1/4" bar I then hollowed out the bottom. It was still very slow going and a tough chore. The random knots and less then ideal pressure mount against the jamb chuck meant I had to take light cuts. Too much pressure and it could slip since the only force holding it against the jamb chuck was from the steady rest wheels. The soft wood and some inner crack lines around the pith also made it a slow process.

I didn't quite finish today so plan to finish up the hollowing tomorrow and then hopefully drop in the big pot to boil.

 

[Kirk Amidon]

Impressive on so many levels. The two things that stand out to me, one, the scale of the piece. It just did not look that big, until you look at how TINY the chuck appears in comparison. Second, the number of issues and challenges a larger piece provide which just don't occur with smaller pieces. The number and scope of problems is of a different scale, just like this piece. The decision to switch ends and go from the bottom, being a prime example of that. Thanks a ton for sharing the story and project as you've moved along.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Kirk, it is hard to get the scale of things sometimes but yes, everything is different. Even though it's mostly hollowed out and I'm just doing cleanup on the bottom half I still struggle to lift it. Everything is heavy and big - bars, steady rest, support frames, the piece, etc. Simple remounts or changes are not a trivial decision. When I started doing this it seemed at every step there was another challenge to get past that wasn't an issue with smaller pieces.

 

[John K Jordan]

Even though it's mostly hollowed out and I'm just doing cleanup on the bottom half I still struggle to lift it. Everything is heavy and big - bars, steady rest, support frames, the piece, etc

That's one reason I like to turn smaller things.



JKJ

 

[Randy Anderson]

John, very nice work and yes, really small pieces have their own set of challenges. I still turn "normal" sized things in between big projects. Nothing really small like what you do except maybe a ring bowl here and there. It's good for the soul to mount a blank, make a bowl or a normal sized vase, finish it in a day or so and be finished. I have to break up the work from time to time.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Hollowing Done - Day 3 & 4

I finished up the hollowing this morning. Since I didn't have a tight chuck mount for the headstock end I had to take light passes. A lot of material to remove using light passes takes a lot of time. I use a cupped carbide cutter for all of my hollowing so I switch to a guarded cupped carbide cutter to do cleanup. I can work up and down the inside wall and not worry about creating additional tool mark grooves while I work high and low spots for wall thickness. An unguarded cupped cutter can be pretty aggressive and an inside snag or jerk on the bar can make a very noticeable groove or, on a thin walled piece, cut through to the outside. I've done it.

I then move to a Roli Munro bar with the same guarded carbide cutter to smooth out the inside wall looking for ridges or grooves I can work individually. The best way I know to use the Roli Munro setup is with a custom tool rest that has a pivot pin and LED lights underneath. It extends into the piece and the pivot pin can be moved up and down the tool rest. It provides light inside the piece so I can see where I'm working and has additional linkages to reach even further around if needed and a platform that extends well into the opening. I sit on a bar stool on the back side of the lathe, put the tool handle on my right shoulder and tilt my head a bit to see inside where the cutter is against the wall. It's easy to then pivot the tool against the pin on the tool rest and apply the right amount of pressure in the right place to address specific areas. I can also tilt the cutter up or down depending on where I'm cutting to be more or less aggressive or minimize chatter. On green wood the cutter head can clog easily so you have to apply pressure to keep it cutting and the pivot pin provides a stable leverage point to work against. The cutter head can be rotated from straight out to a 90 deg angle. Works great but does take a good bit of practice to get the hang of it.

I also have a Simple Systems articulated hollowing rig that I sometimes use to do final cleanup where I have a piece with an inside curve profile at the opening. Since I ended up hollowing from both ends I used it here to cleanup from the opening (the bottom in this case) in and around the curve. It only works out to about 5-6 inches at best so I only use it for limited work around sharp curves at openings. I have curved and straight shaft tool bars for it. Very handy setup for small pieces.

Hollowing all done.

 

[Randy Anderson]

A few more pics

 

[Paul Lajoie]

I then move to a Roli Munro bar with the same guarded carbide cutter to smooth out the inside wall looking for ridges or grooves I can work individually. The best way I know to use the Roli Munro setup is with a custom tool rest that has a pivot pin and LED lights

Are the LED lights battery powered? Don’t see a wire coming out of vessel. Also where’d you source the tool rest?

 

[Randy Anderson]

Paul, here's a bottom view of the rest. They're the strip 12V LED lights you can get just about anywhere. I have them glued underneath the platform and then to a quick connect at the tool rest post. You can see it tie wrapped at the junction of the post and the platform. I use a small 12V adapter and plug them in. No wires in the way and the lights are underneath so they don't get damaged. I've only had to replace one section near the front. They went out but not damaged. Helps a LOT for seeing inside when working.

The tool rest is a custom build I got from John Tisdale a few years ago. I've thought about making some with a bit different shapes. I have access to a steel fab shop with some excellent metal workers that like to do one off things like this for me.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Boiling

I boil all of my med to large size pieces for about 1 1/2 - 2 hours. Boiling shortens the drying time and reduces the potential for cracking. It opens up the cell structure of the wood to allow the trapped water to escape easier while drying. My "pot" is an old 35 gallon air compressor tank with one end cut off and a 3 leg stand welded on the other end. I use a wok burner they sell for commercial kitchens attached to my natural gas via a quick connect. The wok burner you can get on Amazon, they're not expensive and come in all sorts of sizes. The quick connect hose and regulator you can get as a kit at Home Depot or other places. It takes about 1 1/2 hours or more for the water to begin to boil. I keep a lid on it to contain the heat. Makes a big difference in how quickly it gets to a boil and conserves some of the evaporation while boiling. As you can tell, I need a bigger pot. A 32" piece barely clears the top and I like to keep the entire piece submerged. Working on getting a 6" rim welded around the top to make it deeper.

Depending on the wood you may have to add weight inside to keep it submerged. I keep a pile of fist size rocks nearby and just drop them into the piece until it sinks. I started out doing this in my driveway. Created a lot of interest with the neighbors. I've since moved it around back.

I let it cool down slowly overnight then tomorrow I'll take it out and put it in a drying box. If I boil walnut or cherry, especially cherry, I try to keep the water for the next piece of blond or less than colorful wood to boil. The water can add a good bit of color to the piece. Cherry will turn the water a deep deep red that's a nice touch to the next boiled piece. If you twice turn a piece the color may not stay as pronounced but it still helps.

 

[John K Jordan]

If I boil walnut or cherry, especially cherry, I try to keep the water for the next piece of blond or less than colorful wood to boil. The water can add a good bit of color to the piece. Cherry will turn the water a deep deep red that's a nice touch to the next boiled piece. If you twice turn a piece the color may not stay as pronounced but it still helps.

That's an interesting twist on boiling that I haven't heard before. If you boil smaller pieces, would you put the lighter-colored wood in with the darker wood and boil both at the same time?

A guy I new in Peru said they boiled in a 55-gal drum over a wood fire. I thought about using a 55-gal stainless steel drum - I found two for cheap at a fab company (cosmetically dented) and used my plasma cutter to make a burn barrel out of one for scraps from my bandsaw.



JKJ

 

[Randy Anderson]

John, never tried boiling things together but might work. I know some folks use the discarded stainless drums from the food industry that can be picked up for not a lot of money. I looked at a few before I stumbled on this old compressor that was a great fit, until I inched up in size a bit. The reason I chose it was the thick steel walls to hold heat and the diameter was smaller so less water to boil. Perfect for vases. I like the convenience of natural gas so not likely start tending a fire under a barrel all afternoon.