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Kilian carbide tools - opinions?

B

Barry Larson

Joined
Jan 23, 2023
Messages
189
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306
Location
Calgary, AB
Hi:
I've just discovered a line of carbide scrapers from a company called Kilian (Canadian). The tools look interesting, and are said to be nanograin carbide (which I assume equates to a finer cutting edge - or to finer marketing one or the other). The tools are unhandled, so I could get some turning practice making the handles. They also offer negative rake cutters which might be interesting to try. Any and all advise/reviews appreciated.
Be safe and stay well.
Barry W. Larson
Calgary, Alberta, Canada eh!
 
I found this company:
kiliantools.com.
They look like perfectly good carbide scrapers, outwardly very similar to the handleless EZWoods that I routinely use. Being a Cansdian company it may well be a better deal for you. Both tool lines use a 1/2" shaft which is adequate for the 8" long shaft.

I prefer handleless tools as they can be used with a removable handle or in a hollowing rig.

I think most carbide inserts are nanograin nowadays, but I may be wrong.
 
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Carbide tool shafts are made with mild steel and are not difficult to make if you are handy in the shop working metal - drill press, vice, 4” hand grinder, files, taps. Swan neck shafts require heat and bending - been able to do up to 1/2” bending with a propane torch. It is not necessary to have the “form fit” around the insert that the purchased tools have. As long as the insert mount is flat (draw filing), and the tapped hole is perpendicular (drill press and vice), you are good.

Can save a lot of $ making your own and buying inserts. AZ Carbide is a great insert source but I dont know about mailing to Canada.
 
This is not an attempt to hijack the thread but the question has been raised about how good is the metal used to make the inserts?are there grades of nanograin carbide? In traditional tooling we have several types of metal available often with known and comparable metallurgical characteristics, but alas not for carbide. Do the big name brand inserts use a better carbide or process that makes them worth the higher price compared to say, AZcarbide? There are really cheap replacement inserts available on Amazon which I have used and was pleasantly surprised at how well they held up. It would be nice if an expert on carbides could provide some information even if from a vendor’s standpoint.
 
Thanks Bernie. All valid points. Any carbide experts out their that would like to educate the unwashed masses?
Be safe and stay well.
Barry
 
Differences in carbide inserts……well, yes, but good luck getting detailed, accurate material and process specs from the various turning tool mfrs to perform a comparison. They will provide their marketing “speak”, which I have zero faith in.
 
Thanks Doug. Yes, spot on. From what I've read you get something between voodoo, alchemy and marketing!
Be safe and stay well.
Barry
 
When I started working at GE in 1970 we used Carboloy inserts (a company started and owned by GE). They cut and lasted well. Even though owned by GE they had to be bought by our division. Now some smart individual in management said we can save money by buying SECO inserts. We on the floor found that those inserts could not compare to the Carboloy inserts an almost had to go on strike to get Carboloy inserts, we went through that every couple years. Finally in I think it was 87 SECO bought Carboloy. The meaning is that not all carbide is equal and although I have not tested differences in Nano carbides of today I am happy to use the Nano carbide I use. Even though it costs a few dollars more than some others selling it I'm going to continue to use what I use as it works so very well and that is what I am not going to take a chance on changing.
 
Doug Freeman said:
Carbide tool shafts are made with mild steel and are not difficult to make if you are handy in the shop working metal - drill press, vice, 4” hand grinder, files, taps. Swan neck shafts require heat and bending - been able to do up to 1/2” bending with a propane torch. It is not necessary to have the “form fit” around the insert that the purchased tools have. As long as the insert mount is flat (draw filing), and the tapped hole is perpendicular (drill press and vice), you are good.

Can save a lot of $ making your own and buying inserts. AZ Carbide is a great insert source but I dont know about mailing to Canada.
Click to expand...
If possible Doug could you possibly post a picture of what you have made? It would be helpful! Thanks
 
Doug, thanks for the AZ Carbide recommendation. It appears they will ship to us Canucks at a reasonable rate, and ship USPS so extra UPS charges at the border are avoided. They also have an excellent cross-reference chart on their website. Thanks to all for the comments. All good information!
Be safe and stay well.
Barry
 
Will Armstrong said:
If possible Doug could you possibly post a picture of what you have made? It would be helpful! Thanks
Click to expand...

Here are pictures of one of the many insert holding tools I have made. I make them for carbide inserts, hss 3/16" x 3/16" tool bits for hollowing, and hss scraper type inserts. All use mild steel bar purchased at the local box store. Some are square bar, most are round bar, from 3/8" to 1" dia bar. Many, like this one, have a black looking finish - I use a gun bluing chemical called oxospho blue (firearms bluing) this is purely a cosmetic choice on my part, it does aid some in rust prevention.

This tool is for reverse rotation hollowing. The insert is flat top carbide 8.9mm dia, 1/2" bar dia, with a shop made handle, copper tube for the ferrule, and a plastic level stuck on (from harbor freight tools) so I know the tool is level and it marks the rotation of the tool. As you can see the insert is "out in the breeze". A long diamond shaped insert may not work this way, it may rotate without something to hold it - I can't say because I've never tried one. This mounting style has worked well for round and square inserts up to ~5/8" dia. My next tool project is to make a Hunter Badger style with a 3/8" dia cupped carbide insert from AZ Carbide.

1677859349239.jpeg

1677859541464.jpeg

1677859579939.jpeg
 
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Doug Freeman said:
Here are pictures of one of the many insert holding tools I have made. I make them for carbide inserts, hss 3/16" x 3/16" tool bits for hollowing, and hss scraper type inserts. All use mild steel bar purchased at the local box store. Some are square bar, most are round bar, from 3/8" to 1" dia bar. Many, like this one, have a black looking finish - I use a gun bluing chemical called phospho blue (firearms bluing) this is purely a cosmetic choice on my part, it does aid some in rust prevention.

This tool is for reverse rotation hollowing. The insert is flat top carbide 8.9mm dia, 1/2" bar dia, with a shop made handle, copper tube for the ferrule, and a plastic level stuck on (from harbor freight tools) so I know the tool is level and it marks the rotation of the tool. As you can see the insert is "out in the breeze". A long diamond shaped insert may not work this way, it may rotate without something to hold it - I can't say because I've never tried one. This mounting style has worked well for round and square inserts up to ~5/8" dia. My next tool project is to make a Hunter Badger style with a 3/8" dia cupped carbide insert from AZ Carbide.

View attachment 50684

View attachment 50686

View attachment 50687
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Excellent! Great workmanship Doug ! I will have to google how to do the tapping. thanks
 
Doug, In the pictures above can you tell me what the offset and the length of the half circle are. I'm in the process of building one of those tools. I made the straight one and tapered the bar from 5/8" to 3/8" in a 3 1/2" length of taper and it works well. Thanks
 
It's difficult to make judgements about carbide inserts for hand woodturning because nobody with the exception of the Korpro mounts them the way they were designed to be used.

The type insert pictured below is the best insert for wood. This is the type used in automated and CNC woodturning machinery. Prior to the new carbides capable of being made razor sharp the same design was ground in HSS. These cut well with and against the grain. The reason nobody makes hand held woodturning tools with them is because they're near impossible to control when hand held. They're free cutting and aggressive tending to self feed. Actually there is at least one company (in Australia or New Zealand I believe) that uses these with a hood over the insert to limit its aggressiveness.

ArtTemp.jpg
 
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Doug Freeman said:
Carbide tool shafts are made with mild steel and are not difficult to make if you are handy in the shop working metal - drill press, vice, 4” hand grinder, files, taps. Swan neck shafts require heat and bending - been able to do up to 1/2” bending with a propane torch. It is not necessary to have the “form fit” around the insert that the purchased tools have. As long as the insert mount is flat (draw filing), and the tapped hole is perpendicular (drill press and vice), you are go.
Click to expand...
I myself would never use a carbide tool that the tool is not form fit around the insert. You had better also make darn sure your drill press is exactly running perpendicular. Without that pocket holding the insert and using a torx screw be sure your insert does not unwind, that will be a big OOPS!
 
Doug Rasmussen said:
It's difficult to make judgements about carbide inserts for hand woodturning because nobody with the exception of the Korpro mounts them the way they were designed to be used.

I have to disagree as most of the Hunter tools are mounted in the correct orientation for use on wood. And just because you think that insert could no be used hand held does not make it so. Most any tool used wrong can self feed, like any tool how it works and how it is used is a learning process. If there were a true use for that insert to be used there would be those using it. I don't know how much difference there is on the radius of the nose in comparison to the Hunter #1 cutter but would be interested in knowing.
Click to expand...
 
Bill Blasic said:
I myself would never use a carbide tool that the tool is not form fit around the insert. You had better also make darn sure your drill press is exactly running perpendicular. Without that pocket holding the insert and using a torx screw be sure your insert does not unwind, that will be a big OOPS!
Click to expand...
You are entitled to your opinion. I have actually use many that I have made, that are not form fit, and none have unthreaded. For a round insert, please explain how the form fit prevents rotation. The manufactured ones I have seen have some amount of clearance around the insert.

As previously stated, a long diamond shape, which I have never used, could possibly come loose since the torque arm is longer.
 
Vincent Vogel said:
Doug, In the pictures above can you tell me what the offset and the length of the half circle are. I'm in the process of building one of those tools. I made the straight one and tapered the bar from 5/8" to 3/8" in a 3 1/2" length of taper and it works well. Thanks
Click to expand...
I think you are asking about the radius at the end of the tool bar? I dont know the dimension but it ~ equals the radius of the bottom of the insert. I make them by hand, filing the bar down to fit after rough grinding to shape. I can measure if needed.
 
Doug, I'm refering to the dimension of the "hook on the end of the straight part of the tool shaft. See attached sketch. Thanks
 

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Richard Coers said:

Carbide Insert Grade Comparison Chart

Carbide Insert Grade Comparison Chart
www.carbidedepot.com
Click to expand...

Hmmmm..... On this chart, what use is it to woodturners? AFAIK, the sellers of replacement inserts for woodturning tools do not tell you the specs of their inserts so what good does it do to have a cross reference to other brands when you don't know what brand you have?

I can see a use for my metal working inserts. One I use for steel is a Mitsubishi coated cermet CCMT, it's a popular insert. But in the case I wasn't able to find them I suppose the chart would help me to find an equivalent in another brand.

As an aside, China is flooding the market with counterfeit inserts. There's a very good chance anything you buy off eBay will be fake. They have even gotten to the point of reproducing packaging so you think you're getting name brand quality.
 
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