Jig adjustment for side angle

[MichaelMouse]

I have to also agree with Al and John. Michael it appears in the video you are showing a re-trueing an already dry bowl. A bit different than rough turning one with bark or out of balance or undulations and etc in rough bowl blanks.

I understand you have become accomplished with your methods but it is irresponsible to tote them, as you do, when there are known and proven methods that are safer. I have no problem with you using your methods. Heck I have no problem you teaching anyone in your shop your methods. But public forums are not the place to show bad and outdated methods.

You obviously have not looked at the videos posted to demonstrate the use of the roughing gouge, only those above, where, as stated, the roughing gouge stands in for its narrower flute cousins in demonstrating how to position the gouge. I doubt that you will gain understanding by looking at something of which you disapprove, but. http://s35.photobucket.com/user/GoodOnesGone/media/DontDoThis.mp4.html Shows the tool in use on a piece with significant gaps. Or this one, taking a big bite for demonstration purposes. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/1012052.mp4.html

Amazing how many line up to assert that they, as experts know how to use the tool properly, but nobody else should. How did you special people acquire the skill - a gift from above? Since I am not a "specially" gifted turner, I learned it by instruction and use. Always been my assertion that what I could do or learn was within the capabilities of anyone. With your insight, I suppose you already know that the combination of shear/skew/and heel clearance (not rubbing or "riding") combines with the natural form of the gouge to produce a smooth surface. If so, what's the objection?

Answer, of course, is the ever-recirculating anecdote about "a guy who knew a guy" who abused the tool in absolute ignorance, by hanging it too far from the rest and stuffing it into the rotation of the piece. Did you ever ask yourself why ANYONE that dumb should be considered anything but a bad example?

 

[John Teichert]

You obviously have not looked at the videos posted to demonstrate the use of the roughing gouge, only those above, where, as stated, the roughing gouge stands in for its narrower flute cousins in demonstrating how to position the gouge. I doubt that you will gain understanding by looking at something of which you disapprove, but. http://s35.photobucket.com/user/GoodOnesGone/media/DontDoThis.mp4.html Shows the tool in use on a piece with significant gaps. Or this one, taking a big bite for demonstration purposes. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/1012052.mp4.html

Amazing how many line up to assert that they, as experts know how to use the tool properly, but nobody else should. How did you special people acquire the skill - a gift from above? Since I am not a "specially" gifted turner, I learned it by instruction and use. Always been my assertion that what I could do or learn was within the capabilities of anyone. With your insight, I suppose you already know that the combination of shear/skew/and heel clearance (not rubbing or "riding") combines with the natural form of the gouge to produce a smooth surface. If so, what's the objection?

Answer, of course, is the ever-recirculating anecdote about "a guy who knew a guy" who abused the tool in absolute ignorance, by hanging it too far from the rest and stuffing it into the rotation of the piece. Did you ever ask yourself why ANYONE that dumb should be considered anything but a bad example?

As a inexperienced turner, I learned that the SRG should not be used on bowls because a spectacular catch could more easily break the shaft, and the wide sweep of the flute made it more likely that a catch would be spectacular.

Michael, after watching your video, it did nothing in the way of "enlightening" my ability to turn, but made me wonder what the point of letting the handle flutter in the breeze so to speak, was about. Since nothing is being said in the video, about what "technique" you were demonstrating, I just didn't "get it".

I've watched the "Why you don't use the SRG" video, and wondered why the demonstrator stuck the SRG with flutes dangerously near catching so far over the rest in the angle that would most likely produce the catch, and then exclaiming "that's why you don't do that". Of course the video was to "prove" that it was dangerous to use the SRG bowl roughing, but I personally think the technique used was so bad that he could have gotten the catch with any gouge.

For me it was enough that using a SRG on bowls and getting a catch could snap the tool at the shaft. Sorby produced a long and strong SRG, with a shaft as thick as their bowl gouge shafts. I even have one. I'm still inexperienced enough that I don't use it in bowls, but Sorby produced it for some one for whatever reason. (It's an old carbon steel tool, and I don't see it in their catalog anymore).

Let it go gents! Using an SRG for bowl turning can be done, but you better know what you're doing, and there seem to be better tools to get the same job done safer due to the shaft issue. We're far off the course of jig adjustments for wing angles.

 

[Gretch Flo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTR2...ew-vl&list=PLgSpqOFj1Ta4xHFM4kKR4VTW8CJmPNNNA[/COLOR]

Thanks for the link-I had seen the main one beforebut didn't take the time to look at the individual clips til this am. Auditioning for "Dancing with the stars"????? Thanks for the site again, Gretch

 

[john lucas]

MM I was demonstrating using the roughing gouge one day and a guy had watched you and said why can't you do that. So I did. In fact I turned the gouge upside down and turned the inside and outside with it that way as well as several other ways. We aren't arguing that it can't be done. In the hands of an experienced turner a cutting edge is a cutting edge. Heck I use the skew on parts of my bowls sometimes for a needed cut.
The argument however goes back to teaching new turners. They get nasty catches with a bowl gouge. Can't imagine what would happen if those same turners used a spindle roughing gouge for the same cuts. That's why we argue against it. Not that it can't be done. I've proven it can be done and obviously so have you.

 

[Odie]

MM I was demonstrating using the roughing gouge one day and a guy had watched you and said why can't you do that. So I did. In fact I turned the gouge upside down and turned the inside and outside with it that way as well as several other ways. We aren't arguing that it can't be done. In the hands of an experienced turner a cutting edge is a cutting edge. Heck I use the skew on parts of my bowls sometimes for a needed cut.
The argument however goes back to teaching new turners. They get nasty catches with a bowl gouge. Can't imagine what would happen if those same turners used a spindle roughing gouge for the same cuts. That's why we argue against it. Not that it can't be done. I've proven it can be done and obviously so have you.

Very well said, John........

I think MM needs a little slack, so he can feel comfortable using what works for him, without feeling like he is violating some kind of taboo that would certainly apply to other turners.

ooc

 

[Ian Robertson]

Amazing how many line up to assert that they, as experts know how to use the tool properly, but nobody else should. How did you special people acquire the skill - a gift from above? No. In my case being taught by one of the best, by large amounts of practice and making mistakes.

Since I am not a "specially" gifted turner, I learned it by instruction and use. Always been my assertion that what I could do or learn was within the capabilities of anyone. With your insight, I suppose you already know that the combination of shear/skew/and heel clearance (not rubbing or "riding") combines with the natural form of the gouge to produce a smooth surface. If so, what's the objection?

Answer, of course, is the ever-recirculating anecdote about "a guy who knew a guy" who abused the tool in absolute ignorance, by hanging it too far from the rest and stuffing it into the rotation of the piece. Did you ever ask yourself why ANYONE that dumb should be considered anything but a bad example?

I get cheesed off by this comment.

As stated earlier I am the turner in that video. In answer to someone in the comments, I said "it was done from a learners perspective because this is what I have seen beginners do (and some more experienced) with the same results.

There is not much difference between success or failure with using an SRG, sharpened correctly, on bowls. A fraction out in the flute angle and you will get a catch.

As stated in the video it took 6 hours and numerous attempts to get that catch. It is also the only time that I have drawn blood caused by a catch. I don't wish to repeat it and if it saves others, good.

As an aside that video is shown in a lot of clubs to demonstrate the pitfalls of using it for that purpose.

A bowl gouge used in the same manner even if it did catch would not have been as spectacular due to length of tool and its cutting action.

There are many things you do and say MM that I don't agree with but I keep them to myself but in this one (using a SRG on bowls) I totally am aghast at you promoting the use of it for beginners.

As has been pointed out by nearly everyone that teaches, it is irresponsible.

 

[hockenbery]

Amazing how many line up to assert that they, as experts know how to use the tool properly, but nobody else should. How did you special people acquire the skill ......
......
combines with the natural form of the gouge to produce a smooth surface. If so, what's the objection?
?

Really simple. The side ground bowl gouge does a better job by measures that matter to me.
When compared to a traditional grind. The side ground gouge
Removes more material per pass when roughing
Is far superior on the interrupted cut for natural edge bowls and half log blanks
leaves a surface that can be sanded with 220.

Every one acquires skills through practicing sound techniques. Those lucky enough to take a quality class using the side ground gouge can leave at the end able to turn a bowl and sand it with 180 and maybe 220.

I will always advise newer turners to use bowl gouges on bowls and avoid using the spindle roughing gouge the catches can be much worse with the SRG.

Look at the bounce you get in the video!
When my students get bounce like that I correct their cut.
The bounce is telling you the tool is not working.

You seem happy with you choice of tools and their performance and that is great for you!

 

[hockenbery]

Very well said, John........

I think MM needs a little slack, so he can feel comfortable using what works for him, without feeling like he is violating some kind of taboo that would certainly apply to other turners.

ooc

Odie,
I don't care what tool MM uses. My interest is the safety and well being of our less experienced members who come to the forum for help.
Using an SRG on bowls is more dangerous than using a bowl gouge.

MM offers many good ideas when he is not promoting the use the SRG on bowls.
It is irresponsible to encourage a novice turner to use an SRG on bowls.

We all break a lot of "rules" and that is fine for us to do as individuals but we should not encourage less experienced turners to rush down the same path on a forum.

Al

 

[Odie]

Odie,
I don't care what tool MM uses. My interest is the safety and well being of our less experienced members who come to the forum for help.
Using an SRG on bowls is more dangerous than using a bowl gouge.

MM offers many good ideas when he is not promoting the use the SRG on bowls.
It is irresponsible to encourage a novice turner to use an SRG on bowls.

We all break a lot of "rules" and that is fine for us to do as individuals but we should not encourage less experienced turners to rush down the same path on a forum.

Al

I completely agree, Al.......

Maybe I missed something, but I hadn't realized MM was encouraging novice turners to use an SRG for bowl turning. I think he just failed to point that out, and John subsequently made the point that this isn't something a novice turner should be doing.

If it were up to me, I'd suggest never using an SRG for bowl turning......ever! As was pointed out, it can be done. Other than the obvious safety concerns, I don't see any advantage to it. If I'm wrong here, let someone come forward and tell us what an SRG can do that a bowl gouge can't.

ooc

 

[John Teichert]

.
.
There is not much difference between success or failure with using an SRG, sharpened correctly, on bowls. A fraction out in the flute angle and you will get a catch.

As stated in the video it took 6 hours and numerous attempts to get that catch. It is also the only time that I have drawn blood caused by a catch. I don't wish to repeat it and if it saves others, good.
.
.

I can understand why it took 6 hours for an experienced turner to get that catch. Newbies like myself could have done it for you in far less time, because we haven't developed the finer senses of bevel angle and roll angle of the tool on the rest as we're approaching the wood. We may have been "told", but not yet developed the finesse for what will be correct. We would be thinking ABC, and as long as the tool was on the rest, not concentrating on just what part of the bevel would actually contact first. As you point out, the SRG has a lot of flute angle and the approach is far more critical than with a bowl gouge.

After turning for more than a year I now understand these issues far more clearly, and am more likely to change to a tool that does have a safer approach, or ensure that the tool in hand is correctly positioned for a supported cut rather than catch. That way of thinking took practice.

JT

 

[robo hippy]

The cuts that MM uses, as near as I can tell are unique to him. I can't remember ever seeing some one else using his cut, which is mostly non bevel rubbing, or a shear scrape though he uses a gouge. I have experimented a lot with the cut, and do not think it has any advantages. The cleanest cuts I can get, even in the most difficult woods, is a bevel rubbing cut and a high shear angle. My favorite tool for this cut is the fluteless gouge. A solid tool, a ) shaped nose like the continental style that MM prefers, and very gently rubbing the bevel. From going back and forth with MM about this for years, I don't think he really understands the mechanics of the bevel rubbing cut. The biggest problem most have with the bevel rubbing cut is that they tend to 'ride' it. As one turner said once, 'the bevel should rub the wood but the wood should not know it'. I guess it is like sharpening, most of us grind rather than sharpen. I have a clip up on how to use a SRG on a bowl for a safe cut and show why and how it can go wrong. No blood though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlAb2BWHw8

robo hippy

 

[Steve Worcester]

I think it all conjecture without the photo.

 

[dbonertz]

MM you are very correct in one thing you said. I do not support using the SRG or continental gouge on bowls. I have two continental gouges and use them on spindle turning in the rare cases where I spindle turn. Even then for the few things I turn in this orientation I find my detail and spindle gouge do well or a skew unless I am knocking square corners off. I have tested your method as Robo has and came to the same conclusion he has come to. BTW, I have watched every video and looked at every picture you have posted and I am still not convinced since I understand the potential hazards.

I am glad there are so many who step up to encourage new turners to stay away from your SRG/continental methods on bowls. I wish that even more would do so. I believe there would be so many more accidents if people used them on bowls. What I don't understand sir is so many step up and voice their opposition to the way your using the tools (bowl use) and no one has stepped up supporting your methods. Now, I do not believe you are a dumb guy because you have brought up good points on other topics but what should this tell you? And please don't start in on you understand the mechanics and the way the wood wants to be cut more than any of the other great turners out there.

Finally MM, I don't really care if you use a spoon to turn a bowl. Just don't go out there supporting it as safe and the best way of doing things.

 

[Hu Lowery]

The trouble is where green turners go with a little bit of knowledge

I started turning wood maybe six months ago but as it happens I haven't gotten many hours in, maybe two hundred, I suspect less. Being an experienced machinist and having played around cutting wood freehand a little bit on my toolpost wood lathe, one designed for building pool cues, I simply hung a piece of wood in an old Craftsman wood lathe I had been ignoring since I bought it on impulse eight or nine years ago and started turning.

Might surprise y'all to learn, I had a little problem with catches. When I opened up the gouge, I opened it up, ninety degrees! Same thing when I started hollowing, stuck the tool in and modified my approach according to whatever happened. These things are what happens with a green turner with no support.

When a green turner finds forums and experts he relates what they are doing to what he is doing the best he can. Quite honestly that is often where things really go to hell in a handbasket. Taking a bit from one expert, a bit from another, combining the two, or three, or four, doesn't always work! Another issue is that while the new turner may think he is doing basically the same thing as the expert what he is doing can be radically different.

I have gained a bunch from every turner in this thread most definitely including MM. However something I have adopted long ago when writing for public consumption is that I am writing to include the least knowledgeable reader. At one time I knew as much about practical rifle accuracy and accurate reloading as all but a handful of people in the world. Much of what I did had zero margin for error. Any literature you could find would tell you that much of what I did was extremely dangerous, guaranteed disaster! The books and some of the most knowledgeable tuners and reloaders who didn't operate in the rarified atmosphere of benchrest competition were wrong and are still wrong today. However I was often in realms where there was zero margin for error, zero margins of any kind! Some I had learned on my own, some I had learned in private conversations with world class shooters. None of this would I put out for public consumption. Not because I want to hog the knowledge and not share but because unless someone has the experience, tools, and skills to do what I was doing the chances of disaster are extremely high.

Best to remember when writing that there are ignorant readers like myself reading and some that have the mechanical aptitude of the three stooges combined!

Hu

 

[Dean Center]

As the original poster of this thread, I request that the moderator close the thread, as the discussion has gotten far off the original question.

The argument over using a spindle roughing gouge on bowls comes up repeatedly, with the same points being made, no resolution ever occurring, and everyone getting upset by the disharmony. Therefore, I further request the moderator stop the argument as soon as it erupts. If, at some point in the future, there is reasonable evidence of a substantial change in the likely result of a novice using a srg on a bowl, the moderator can decide to permit the discussion to resume.

 

[KurtB]

Closed per the original poster's request.