International woodturners, please respond.....looking for videos and other input.....

[Odie]

In the past few days, I've been studying some turning techniques from an English turner, Tobias Kaye. I have seen some videos from other International turners, and one thing seems apparent to me. We do seem to have two distinctly separate turning philosophies and styles......the American group, and the rest of the English speaking world. (I am aware of some others, but these are the two most predominant collections of turning thought, worldwide.)

I am looking for some input from the non-American turning perspective, particularly with some videos you would like to share, and feel are valuable knowledge to pass along.

......But, anything at all is sought. What would you like to tell us Americans about your own styles of turning that we should be aware of.

It seems to me that the International group uses a standard ground gouge with a steep angle much more frequently than we Americans do.....just as an example of what might be discussed. (Matter of fact, the standard ground gouge seems to be a lost art for us Americans......well, except for a few like me.)

Please give us some input to contemplate......

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

It seems to me that the International group uses a standard ground gouge with a steep angle much more frequently than we Americans do.....just as an example of what might be discussed. (Matter of fact, the standard ground gouge seems to be a lost art for us Americans......well, except for a few like me.) Please give us some input to contemplate...... ooc

Odie,

The side ground bowl gouge was invented by Liam Oneil of Ireland and spread to Irish and English turners who brought it to America.
Ellsworth and others have made modifications to the O'neill grind making it their own. The origin was Ireland.
For a while the standard grind was called the "English grind" swept back the "Irish grind"

It is rare to find a major league turn who does not use a side ground gouge most of the time.
It is also rare to find a major league turner who does not use a traditional English grind part of the time.

Trent Bosch teaches a finishing bowl gouge that is side ground on the left and traditional grind on the right.
This is used for advanced finishing work. Flute up shear cuts on the outside of the bowl. Flute up shear cuts on the inside of the bowl.

Probably what has unified American Turners is the AAW. It has exposed American turners and many international turners to the side ground gouge. Bringing Liam Oneil to the us.
Advanced turners seeing a 3/4 - 1 inch wide shaving coming off a bowl from 1/2 bowl gouge, and surface left by the pull cut ( slicing cut), shear cut on the inside, and shear scrape outside, saw that the side ground gouge will leave a cleaner surface faster than a traditional gouge.

I was privileged to have a class with Liam Oneil in 1994-5 and class by David Ellsworth the following year.
A self taught turner at the time doing well, these two teachers totally changed my turning style and impacted my philosophy. I regard Liam as best turner I have ever seen.

Al

 

[hockenbery]

Odie
The grinding jigs put the side ground gouge in the reach of everyone.
The Glaser was the first I saw and used never owned one. Then the Ellsworth and ONEWAY Woulverine changed the turning world forever.
Now the side ground gouge could be taught quickly even learned at home.

Some turners schooled in the apprentice tradition remain committed to hand sharpening.
The vast majority encourage using jig because they realize the average turner does not have two years to devote to learning hand grinding.

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

Nice bit of background Al. Thank you.

 

[AlanZ]

Odie,

I find the Asian turning procedures particularly interesting.

The use of hook tools, wooden tool rests, spindle rotation direction, etc, quite different from the western approach.

Some examples:

http://youtu.be/Cc4mD8t-xOs

http://youtu.be/jXElWUxd49o

 

[hockenbery]

Odie, I find the Asian turning procedures particularly interesting. The use of hook tools, wooden tool rests, spindle rotation direction, etc, quite different from the western approach. An example: http://youtu.be/Cc4mD8t-xOs

Alan we have had several Japanese turners at our symposiums. I agree their approach fascinates me too.
I did not see the same response among our turning community that we saw from Liam O'neill's visits to the US.

This is some of what Odie's looking for.

 

[Odie]

Odie,

I find the Asian turning procedures particularly interesting.

The use of hook tools, wooden tool rests, spindle rotation direction, etc, quite different from the western approach.

Some examples:

http://youtu.be/Cc4mD8t-xOs

http://youtu.be/jXElWUxd49o

Thanks, Alan.......I found those two videos absolutely fascinating! Very different and has possibilities. Notice how the rotation is clockwise, and the Japanese turner is reaching all the way to the other side of the bowl interior to cut with his hook tool! Just great stuff for contemplation!

Al Hockenbery.......You completely missed my point. I am aware of the origins of the side ground bowl gouge. My point in my last sentence. was that American turners do not use the standard grind bowl gouge to the degree that they once did, or see it's true value anymore.....but the Europeans do. This was an example of what kind of input I was seeking from outside of the USA, but only a small part of the total differences I see in overall turning styles and philosophies.

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

Al Hockenbery.......You completely missed my point. I am aware of the origins of the side ground bowl gouge. My point in my last sentence. was that American turners do not use the standard grind bowl gouge to the degree that they once did, or see it's true value anymore.....but the Europeans do. This was an example of what kind of input I was seeking from outside of the USA, but only a small part of the total differences I see in overall turning styles and philosophies. ooc

I may have missed the point. it was not obvious to me that you knew the side ground gouge originated in Europe and has become popular all over Europe.
We disagree on whether Americans understand the value of the traditional grind. I think they very much understand its value.

In the 80's almost everyone used the traditional gouge or a scraper for bowls.
By the late 90s the side ground gouge replaced both in large proportions.

It is not so much that the traditional gouge is a lost art but that the side ground gouge has replaced it for the most part as a better bowl and hollow form tool where ever turners learn from other turners.

The traditionally ground gouge is alive and well in America. It just doesn't do many jobs better than the side ground gouge.
Most all of the turners whose primary tool is the side ground gouge have and use traditionally ground gouges in limited roles.

I would argue that places like England, Ireland, Austrailia, New Zealand, have a culture that lends itself to the rapid adoption of the side ground gouge.
These countries have turning clubs, and symposiums. Also many people from those countries attend the AAW symposiums,Utah Symposiums, and other events that allow them to exchange and incorporate the best practices in woodturning.

French turners are moving in that same direction,

The side ground gouge is being taught all over Europe.

Maybe this is off point too. You are asking to here from people who do things differently from most AAW members.
Maybe there are some on this forum, maybe not.

Al

 

[Odie]

It is not so much that the traditional gouge is a lost art but that the side ground gouge has replaced it for the most part as a better bowl and hollow form tool where ever turners learn from other turners.

The traditionally ground gouge is alive and well in America. It just doesn't do many jobs better than the side ground gouge.
Most all of the turners whose primary tool is the side ground gouge have and use traditionally ground gouges in limited roles.

Al

Al.....Yep, still off subject, but that's ok.....and, yep, we disagree!🙂

You are a great example of the American "herd mindset" that believes the side ground gouge is the better, or more useful tool for bowl turning. This is where the international turners seem to reject our philosophy in total.....and, understandably so. Yes, of course, they do use the side ground gouge, but are not so willing to reject their traditional methods, such as we seem to have done over here. We here are so inundated with the thought that the side ground gouge is superior, that nobody questions that message. The fact is.....that a sharp edge, is a sharp edge, is a sharp edge.......and there is NO magic in the shape of the bevel. Rather, it's strictly a matter of learning how to make that sharp edge cut well through technique......and practice. We are not teaching the value of the traditional grind gouge, and have not been for many years......and, because of that, only those who break free from that "herd mindset", will learn anything differently than what we are teaching our own.

It would be far from my belief that I'll have very many people agreeing with me on this, because I'm well aware that "the herd" has influenced opinion to the point that anyone who takes issue with it will not have much effect on general understanding......except for the very few that have experienced through long term practice that what's accepted as truth by the majority of thought, isn't necessarily a truth by default.

The one thing that I must add, whenever I buck the "herd mentality", is there is one thing, and one thing only that truly matters.......and, that is results.

ooc

 

[john lucas]

Odie many of the international turners I have seen in the last few years use the side ground gouge just like we do. It's just more versatile which is why we use it. I still have a traditional gouge or at least something similar. I use the stewart Batty grind a lot which is slightly swept back.

 

[Odie]

Odie many of the international turners I have seen in the last few years use the side ground gouge just like we do. It's just more versatile which is why we use it. I still have a traditional gouge or at least something similar. I use the stewart Batty grind a lot which is slightly swept back.

Yes, of course they do, John. From what I've seen, the difference between them and us, is they still use their traditional ground gouges at a much greater frequency than do we.......and, this is because of our own established pattern of what is accepted thinking. The international turners aren't relying on our group thought as much as we do, so their directions aren't the same as ours.

Since we, as a group of turners, have no lock on quality turning, why is it that our own established patterns are thought by us to be better? Answer: They aren't.

ooc

 

[Sergio Villa]

I believe that "american way o turning" is characterized by the high percentage of people that turns for hobby. Even many, few in reality, professionals make more money teaching etc rather than selling their turnings. In Europe, with the partial exception of Germany, woodturning as an hobby is practically non existent given the economical and space limitations.
These differences have greatly influenced the tool and lathe market and while in Europe spindle turning is still part of the cabinetmaker/restore repertoire, bowl making is marginal and so is the so called "artistic" turning.
Like in the auto racing, and many other sports/hobbies where few professionals make a living racing and masses watch or at the most drive in a circuit on weekends, speed is everything.
I've seen a few demo on bowl turning and always the blank was green, the grind was irish exasperated thus to show the shaving flying and how fast the bowl could be cut. Show and business as usual. No need to watch or do that kind of turning any more.
I believe that speed and shear power are part of this trend. If the lathe turns fast also the hand must move fast and if the lathe turns slower (in reasonable limits of course!) the hand has to go slower too. But the number if turnings per unit of time may be similar. In the first case the there is more dander of an accident the second is much safer but to get the same finishing cut one a needs a sharper tool and a better hand and just few minutes more. Just look at the Japanese masters of the fantastic videos. By the way one of them was in the traditional kimono-like dress with long and large sleeves.
For spindle turning the bedan, bedano in italian, is almost unknown here but very common in France and Italy. Esculen docet.
For bowl turning in Italy the american-british tool makers are the best sellers and so they are taking over but the old timers resist.
Here is a video, not particularly important but it shows that this particular italian turner is using a hook tool to make a small hollow form followed by a more british/american tool.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zb6Y-QembpE
Globalization is killing the old traditions end cultures.

 

[Odie]

I believe that "american way o turning" is characterized by the high percentage of people that turns for hobby. Even many, few in reality, professionals make more money teaching etc rather than selling their turnings. In Europe, with the partial exception of Germany, woodturning as an hobby is practically non existent given the economical and space limitations.
These differences have greatly influenced the tool and lathe market and while in Europe spindle turning is still part of the cabinetmaker/restore repertoire, bowl making is marginal and so is the so called "artistic" turning.
Like in the auto racing, and many other sports/hobbies where few professionals make a living racing and masses watch or at the most drive in a circuit on weekends, speed is everything.
I've seen a few demo on bowl turning and always the blank was green, the grind was irish exasperated thus to show the shaving flying and how fast the bowl could be cut. Show and business as usual. No need to watch or do that kind of turning any more.
I believe that speed and shear power are part of this trend. If the lathe turns fast also the hand must move fast and if the lathe turns slower (in reasonable limits of course!) the hand has to go slower too. But the number if turnings per unit of time may be similar. In the first case the there is more dander of an accident the second is much safer but to get the same finishing cut one a needs a sharper tool and a better hand and just few minutes more. Just look at the Japanese masters of the fantastic videos. By the way one of them was in the traditional kimono-like dress with long and large sleeves.
For spindle turning the bedan, bedano in italian, is almost unknown here but very common in France and Italy. Esculen docet.
For bowl turning in Italy the american-british tool makers are the best sellers and so they are taking over but the old timers resist.
Here is a video, not particularly important but it shows that this particular italian turner is using a hook tool to make a small hollow form followed by a more british/american tool.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zb6Y-QembpE
Globalization is killing the old traditions end cultures.

Thanks Sergio......that's exactly the sort of video I was hoping to be suggested in this thread. Once I got started, had to see it all the way to the end. It looks like he put a plastic bag over the turning after applying a coat of what in a spray can? Was that spray poly urethane? Why the bag? Wouldn't it have been a problem with sticking to the poly? The video wasn't very clear, but would like to have had a closer look at that special tool made from a screwdriver. That hollowing tool wasn't very clear either.....

ooc

 

[Sergio Villa]

Odie, if you stop the video at 1:48 +or - you can see the tool pretty well.
The decoration is made by paint brush. Unfortunately many italian video of this type are very amateurish and lack details or explanations. It is like real italian old cooking books: a little of this then a little of that finally in the oven at the right temperature until the roast is done... .Now less and less people know how to cook and so books are becoming more detailed. It is the progress that progresses...
There are other interesting videos from italian traditional turners but mainly spindle turning which I imagine do not interest you.

 

[Bill Blasic]

If the traditional grind was as good as some think it would come ground on all gouges and be used by all turners. The fact is that I have never seen any body use a traditional grind when they start cutting on a bowl. Some use it for the transition from the inside to the bottom but that is about it. In that video which I couldn't watch all of the man was using the gouge like a scraper not rubbing the bevel. If I may make a bold statement I believe that turning would not be where it is at today without the advent of the side ground bowl gouge, it just makes turning easier.
Bill

 

[hockenbery]

Al.....Yep, still off subject, but that's ok.....and, yep, we disagree!🙂 You are a great example of the American "herd mindset" that believes the side ground gouge is the better, or more useful tool for bowl turning.
The fact is.....that a sharp edge, is a sharp edge, is a sharp edge.......and there is NO magic in the shape of the bevel. Rather, it's strictly a matter of learning how to make that sharp edge cut well through technique......and practice. We are not teaching the value of the traditional grind gouge, and have not been for many years......and, because of that, only those who break free from that "herd mindset", will learn anything differently than what we are teaching our own. It would be far from my belief that I'll have very many people agreeing with me on this, because I'm well aware that "the herd" has influenced opinion to the point that anyone who takes issue with it will not have much effect on general understanding......except for the very few that have experienced through long term practice that what's accepted as truth by the majority of thought, isn't necessarily a truth by default. The one thing that I must add, whenever I buck the "herd mentality", is there is one thing, and one thing only that truly matters.......and, that is results. ooc

Odie,
Fairly strong disdain of the side ground gouge. I don't know what experience you have had with the side ground gouge, which turners you have seen use it, or what teachers you have had. The side ground gouge may not be right for you. Great bowls are done every day using tools other than the side ground gouge. But most of the great bowl turners use the side ground gouge.

The side ground gouge does magical things. I am a member of that herd.
I believe acute angles are sharper than obtuse angles and blades cut better when presented at an angle both of which are inherent in the use of the side ground gouge. Liam O'Neill fooled me into thinking there was value in the side ground gouge when he put a 14" dried, warped cherry bowl on a faceplate then turned it round with one cut from foot to rim using the side ground gouge. Shear scraped it and began sanding with 220. I joined that herd in a heartbeat.

I grind my gouge with nose bevel angle about 55 degrees. Every other cutting edge is sharper as the bevel angles decrease moving from the nose to the center of the wing.
The front shoulder of the wing presents a curved cutting edge at about 45 degrees to the tool with a 40 degree bevel angle.
The center of the wing has a bevel angle of 25-30 degrees.

A 1/2" side ground gouge(5/8" bar) in roughing mode can take a 3/4" wide shaving with no effort. That is reducing the diameter 3/4". The non bevel ridding cut has no bounce from bevel contact creating a smooth curve.

The push cut with the flute rotated 45 degrees presents a 40 degree bevel to the wood at something close to 45 degree cutting angle

The pull cut(slicing cut) shown and explained quite well in Reed's video uses the wing to make a cut very much like a skew cut with nose down. This is the cleanest cut that can be made with a gouge. This cut is terrific on the interrupted surfaces of natural edge bowls and multi center turnings.

The advanced shear cut with the flute up presents a 40 degree bevel with a radius end cutting edge at about 45 degrees to the wood's surface. This cut leaves a nice surface when I am forced to cut against the grain and the best finish cut you can get on the inside of a bowl with a gouge.
This cut can start at the rim of a natural edge bowl but is not easily started at the rim of a cut rim bowl. I finish the first inch of the inside of a cut rim bowl with a 1/4" traditional gouge then roll the 1/2" side ground gouge into the shear cut to finish the remainder.
The traditional grind actually does a slightly better shear finish cut on the outside of the bowl because its cutting edge is close to 90 degrees but the pull cut with side ground gouge is nearly as good.
Have to start with 220 paper with either.

Bottom line if you are happy not using the side ground gouge good for you!

 

[Odie]

Odie,
Fairly strong disdain of the side ground gouge. I don't know what experience you have had with the side ground gouge, which turners you have seen use it, or what teachers you have had. The side ground gouge may not be right for you. Great bowls are done every day using tools other than the side ground gouge. But most of the great bowl turners use the side ground gouge.

The side ground gouge does magical things. I am a member of that herd.
I believe acute angles are sharper than obtuse angles and blades cut better when presented at an angle both of which are inherent in the use of the side ground gouge. Liam O'Neill fooled me into thinking there was value in the side ground gouge when he put a 14" dried, warped cherry bowl on a faceplate then turned it round with one cut from foot to rim using the side ground gouge. Shear scraped it and began sanding with 220. I joined that herd in a heartbeat.

I grind my gouge with nose bevel angle about 55 degrees. Every other cutting edge is sharper as the bevel angles decrease moving from the nose to the center of the wing.
The front shoulder of the wing presents a curved cutting edge at about 45 degrees to the tool with a 40 degree bevel angle.
The center of the wing has a bevel angle of 25-30 degrees.

A 1/2" side ground gouge(5/8" bar) in roughing mode can take a 3/4" wide shaving with no effort. That is reducing the diameter 3/4". The non bevel ridding cut has no bounce from bevel contact creating a smooth curve.

The push cut with the flute rotated 45 degrees presents a 40 degree bevel to the wood at something close to 45 degree cutting angle

The pull cut(slicing cut) shown and explained quite well in Reed's video uses the wing to make a cut very much like a skew cut with nose down. This is the cleanest cut that can be made with a gouge. This cut is terrific on the interrupted surfaces of natural edge bowls and multi center turnings.

The advanced shear cut with the flute up presents a 40 degree bevel with a radius end cutting edge at about 45 degrees to the wood's surface. This cut leaves a nice surface when I am forced to cut against the grain and the best finish cut you can get on the inside of a bowl with a gouge.
This cut can be start at the rim of a natural edge bowl but not easily started at the rim of a cut rim bowl. I finish the first inch of the inside of a cut rim bowl with a 1/4" traditional gouge then roll the 1/2" side ground gouge into the shear cut to finish the remainder.
The traditional grind actually does a slightly better shear finish cut on the outside of the bowl because its cutting edge is close to 90 degrees but the pull cut with side ground gouge is nearly as good.
Have to start with 220 paper with either.

Bottom line if you are happy not using the side ground gouge good for you!

(For purposes of simplicity, SGG=side ground gouge, and TG=traditional grind)

To the contrary, Al.......

I use the side ground gouge, and have been using it for about 20 years. It definitely has it's advantages, and those are centered around external pull cuts and shear scraping along the long portions of the wings. In case you forgot, here's a link with photos to my thread explaining my methods for organizing, and conveniently duplicating SGG's, as well as TG's:

http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/sho...ind-jig&highlight=traditional+grind+ellsworth

Here's something to contemplate by those following this thread.......The SGG and the TG are identical at the tip and a short distance to either side. Think about this......the TG is ground by turning on the tools axis while grinding, and the variations of that grind are in the bevel angle. The SGG angles the tool upwards from the tool's axis, and turns on a modified axis. At that point where the side ground gouge is not tilted to either side, the grind you are giving it is exactly the same as if you were giving it a traditional grind, provided the bevel angle is the same. Comparing both grinds and their uses, the tip and a portion to each side performs exactly the same in use. Where the differences become apparent, is along the lengthened edge of the side ground edge. Here, the SGG is not useful as a pull cut on the interior of a bowl because it would be opposed to grain direction, but it is very useful for the same pull cut on the exterior. The TG can do both of these cuts with equal efficiency and results, but the lengthened wing of the SGG gives it additional life expectancy before returning to the grinder. IMHO, the TG has a specific advantage in the interior of bowls, particularly along the bottom where a blunted, or high angle will bring into play a longer segment of the wing than will a SGG.

Where I am disappointed in "the herd" is the concept that the side ground gouge does everything better than the traditional gouge......a false conception. I've come to the conclusion that each of the two grinds have their specific advantages, but this isn't the advice the new turners are getting.

I just ran a search, and couldn't find it, but some here might remember a thread with a link to the many variations of grinds available for our use......and the traditional grind wasn't even on that list at all! To me, that was astonishing, considering how useful the TG is in the overall scheme of turning bowls. It was an expose' of the lack of attention to the TG in our "herd mindset"......

ooc

 

[Sergio Villa]

Here is a 19century turned bowl, 21,25 inch diameter.
Please look at the details, astonishing for a utility dairy bowls. Sold for only $1000.

I believe this bowl fits perfectly in this thread as the demonstration that the turner is at least as important as the tool he uses when time and speed are not a primary factor.

Did this turner cut 3/4 inch wide shavings (that by the way do not reduce the diameter by 3/4 inch unless they are also 3/4 inch thick)? Totally irrelevant.

http://www.materialcultures.com/the-oak-interior/

 

[hockenbery]

Here is a 19century turned bowl, 21,25 inch diameter. Please look at the details, astonishing for a utility dairy bowls. Sold for only $1000. I believe this bowl fits perfectly in this thread as the demonstration that the turner is at least as important as the tool he uses when time and speed are not a primary factor. Did this turner cut 3/4 inch wide shavings (that by the way do not reduce the diameter by 3/4 inch unless they are also 3/4 inch thick)]

Sergio,
Many bowls from that era were turned by gang knives. These were curved cutters similar to coring blades used today. 4- 5 bowls were cut at once. Then sanded on big drums. Often there was little hand turning in production bowls. The detail was likely added by a wire.
Here is a video of a modern bowl mill. A lot of antique bowls were made this way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EnERnbrJiU&feature=youtube_gdata

Regarding the shavings You are right,A 3/4" shaving does not reduce the diameter by 3/4" it reduces it by 1 1/2" and the shaving usually run about an 1/8" thick. Here is a photo of a roughing cut. The bevel is not riding. Removing wood to get the blank round. Here the shaving is a 1/2" wide.
Also a two more photos of a larger bowl being rough turned.

Al

 

[hughie]

some differences

Odie, Speaking from the South Pacific I see some differences in bowl and Hollow vessel turning. I note that there are a lot of the captive type hollowers in use over your way. Whereas here many use Rolly Munro, the Porforme, and Sorenson tools. As to angles etc I and many other use 45' angle as what I see you guys use something around 60'

Also the hobbyist turner would be by far and away the greatest majority of turners. So the professional turners are often production turners with automatic lathes and I would think in the main spindle turners or ones that handle the bigger pieces ie architectural turned items on specific lathes
We simply dont have the appreciation of 'turned wood art' as you do in the US, far more common is the utilitarian type of turning of which a great deal of it comes from Asia. As for outlets for Wood Turned Art they are few in number across the country and I'm unaware of any museum that has any pieces on show other than some early historic pieces relating to the early settlement. Collectors exist but small in number and much of it is bought as decor items, well certainly my pieces anyway.

Tooling here has in the past lent towards the English makers although the Thompson tools are gaining a good foot hold. The new Glaser Hitec is not common and the other types of tungsten tipped tools etc are often made by the individual turners, preferring to buy the tips and build there own.

But having said that and given the are large variety of very hard hardwoods we have here,turners are always on the look out for better tools of superior edge hold ability, different grinds and angles anything that will help or improve performance.

 

[Sergio Villa]

Sergio,
Many bowls from that era were turned by gang knives. These were curved cutters similar to coring blades used today. 4- 5 bowls were cut at once. Then sanded on big drums. Often there was little hand turning in production bowls. The detail was likely added by a wire.
Here is a video of a modern bowl mill. A lot of antique bowls were made this way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EnERnbrJiU&feature=youtube_gdata

Regarding the shavings You are right,A 3/4" shaving does not reduce the diameter by 3/4" it reduces it by 1 1/2" and the shaving usually run about an 1/8" thick. Here is a photo of a roughing cut. The bevel is not riding. Removing wood to get the blank round. Here the shaving is a 1/2" wide.
Also a two more photos of a larger bowl being rough turned.

Al

I'm not familiar with the way antique bowls were made except that they did non have the power tools we have today and hook tools were very much in use and certainly not for spindles.

I still have some doubts that a 3/4 wide x 1/8 inch thick shaving will reduce the diameter by 1 1/2 inch in one pass of course or even by 3/4 inch for that matter.

I use a regularly a 5/8 and a 1/2 inch bowl gauge with a non exasperated side grinding. Number 5 on the tormek grinding jig for whom is familiar with this grinder, rolled 180 degrees. But also I use traditional gouges. In all my post I made the distinctions between production turners and their need for fast cutting and hobby turner or simply people that turn many different things and not only bowls. Raffan makes, if I'm not wrong a subtle irony on people that like so much seeing the shavings away, but it could have been another important turner. By the way, I found incredible that so many turners turn only bowls and never do spindles which is an important part of the turning technique.

Regards


The comment

 

[Odie]

Odie, Speaking from the South Pacific I see some differences in bowl and Hollow vessel turning. I note that there are a lot of the captive type hollowers in use over your way. Whereas here many use Rolly Munro, the Porforme, and Sorenson tools. As to angles etc I and many other use 45' angle as what I see you guys use something around 60'

Also the hobbyist turner would be by far and away the greatest majority of turners. So the professional turners are often production turners with automatic lathes and I would think in the main spindle turners or ones that handle the bigger pieces ie architectural turned items on specific lathes
We simply dont have the appreciation of 'turned wood art' as you do in the US, far more common is the utilitarian type of turning of which a great deal of it comes from Asia. As for outlets for Wood Turned Art they are few in number across the country and I'm unaware of any museum that has any pieces on show other than some early historic pieces relating to the early settlement. Collectors exist but small in number and much of it is bought as decor items, well certainly my pieces anyway.

Tooling here has in the past lent towards the English makers although the Thompson tools are gaining a good foot hold. The new Glaser Hitec is not common and the other types of tungsten tipped tools etc are often made by the individual turners, preferring to buy the tips and build there own.

But having said that and given the are large variety of very hard hardwoods we have here,turners are always on the look out for better tools of superior edge hold ability, different grinds and angles anything that will help or improve performance.

Hello Hughie........

I believe it was Sergio that suggested that the hobby turner is not as prevalent in Europe as it is here in the USA. To me, that was a surprising revelation. I've seen a lot of artistic turning come from there. If I get what you're saying, the hobby turner down your way is the most prevalent. One thing is for sure, you do have a great supply of very exotic and beautiful woods in the South Pacific.....I've turned some of it!

ooc

 

[Odie]

I'm not familiar with the way antique bowls were made except that they did non have the power tools we have today and hook tools were very much in use and certainly not for spindles.

I still have some doubts that a 3/4 wide x 1/8 inch thick shaving will reduce the diameter by 1 1/2 inch in one pass of course or even by 3/4 inch for that matter.

I use a regularly a 5/8 and a 1/2 inch bowl gauge with a non exasperated side grinding. Number 5 on the tormek grinding jig for whom is familiar with this grinder, rolled 180 degrees. But also I use traditional gouges. In all my post I made the distinctions between production turners and their need for fast cutting and hobby turner or simply people that turn many different things and not only bowls. Raffan makes, if I'm not wrong a subtle irony on people that like so much seeing the shavings away, but it could have been another important turner. By the way, I found incredible that so many turners turn only bowls and never do spindles which is an important part of the turning technique.

Regards


The comment

With a very wide gouge, say about 1", or so, and a big motor.....I guess I can see how it's possible to do that. I don't see why this would be desirable at all. I suppose being able to make big long streams of shavings is impressive to a new turner, but I'm finding it a little less than practical. There have been quite a few demonstrators who do make these kind of shavings, strictly for the awesomeness it seems to have on an audience. Maybe this has some value for a production turner who makes simple shapes, and doesn't spend much time on any phase of the turning. It doesn't have much value to a turner who spends a lot of time and effort with the final turning of their works.

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

My advice to the novice turner is not to remove much wood with each pass and to use a bevel riding cut.
Until a turner can make decent curves, they are likely to cut away wood they want if they remove too much wood.
Also the non bevel riding roughing cut can tear the fibers a 1/4" below the surface so the waste surface has to be cleaned up.
The novice needs the practice in riding the bevel. I consider the non bevel riding roughing cut an intermediate level skill.

It is not a race. I turn mostly hollow forms which can be thought of as two bowls joined at the rim.
Removing waste wood quickly gets me to the point where I need to spend effort refining the curves and surface.
Also it gets the blank in balance faster.

Rapid removable of waste wood is just one of the the numerous areas where the side ground gouge is my tool of choice.

I work a lot with wet wood. The longer it is on the the lathe the more likely it is to crack. Rapid roughing is just one if the reasons experienced turners rarely have pieces crack.

Spindle turning is another aspect of turning where the good spindle turners get rid of the waste wood as fast as they can
Using big spindle roughing gouges and taking large cuts.

Al

 

[hockenbery]

Sergio, Odie,

This is a clip from the beginning of a demo I do on turning 3 sided napkin rings.
You can see the bowl gouge removing some wide shavings. 1/2" and larger.
It also shows the relationship of the cuts in the spindle to the cuts on a bowl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I05IYkb06Jc&feature=youtube_gdata

With this roughing job, why would I take 1/8" cuts when I can take 5/8" cuts?



Al

 

[hockenbery]

With a very wide gouge, say about 1", or so, and a big motor.....I guess I can see how it's possible to do that. I don't see why this would be desirable at all. ooc

Odie the width of the shaving is determined by the length of the wing. A properly presented sharp 5/8 diameter gouge can cut a 1/2-3/4" wide shaving with a 3/4 horse motor.
The feed rate has to be slowed down to accommodate the lathe. I taught many bowls classes on 16" woodfasts with 3/4 HP motors. My students made tons of 1/2" shavings.

Al

 

[Sergio Villa]

Hello Hughie........

I believe it was Sergio that suggested that the hobby turner is not as prevalent in Europe as it is here in the USA. To me, that was a surprising revelation. I've seen a lot of artistic turning come from there. If I get what you're saying, the hobby turner down your way is the most prevalent. One thing is for sure, you do have a great supply of very exotic and beautiful woods in the South Pacific.....I've turned some of it!

ooc

What I really meant was that there are not too many hobby turners in Europe perhaps with the exception of Germany. England I do not know. As in Australia the professionals and industries use the CNC machines and do not bother to turn by hand and what makes the majority of the work is spindle turning for furniture. Besides, there are now a lot of imported goods and certainly in China they do not turn by hand goods to be exported.
In USA, because of the availability of space and perhaps money (I found turning incredibly expensive!) more people, in percentage to the population and as an absolute number, are more numerous. A little of what happened in the eighteen century in which the british and german aristocracy turned for pleasure.
Without the american market Oneway and Robust i believe would not be here and so the myriad of hollowing tool manufacturer (many made in China?) and continuous rediscovering the warm water that is going on in the field.

 

[Odie]

Odie the width of the shaving is determined by the length of the wing. A properly presented sharp 5/8 diameter gouge can cut a 1/2-3/4" wide shaving with a 3/4 horse motor.
The feed rate has to be slowed down to accommodate the lathe. I taught many bowls classes on 16" woodfasts with 3/4 HP motors. My students made tons of 1/2" shavings.

Al

The length of the wing determines the width of the shavings...

Yep, Al.......that makes sense to me.

I don't know how that knowledge applies to any applicable benefit to woodturning. I'm one who never takes as big a bite as possible. I've always been aware of the premise that it's a goal. It is something that some turning instructors, and demonstrators use it establish that sense of awe in their audience, in which they gain some meaningless respect.

Big shavings or speed, either for initial finish cuts after seasoning, or in roughing prior so seasoning mean nothing to me. The real time consuming effort is in the finish work. For me, nice crisp clean smaller cuts with more passes, takes only a minimal amount of additional time, and is sometimes key to results later on. All of this is because big cuts also assumes more risk that the grain structure beneath the surface is disrupted. This can happen, and does happen.....not in every case, but certainly does sometimes. When it does, most turners will be bewildered why a particular piece of wood isn't responding to final cuts and sanding, while other examples do.

ooc

 

[Odie]

What I really meant was that there are not too many hobby turners in Europe perhaps with the exception of Germany. England I do not know. As in Australia the professionals and industries use the CNC machines and do not bother to turn by hand and what makes the majority of the work is spindle turning for furniture. Besides, there are now a lot of imported goods and certainly in China they do not turn by hand goods to be exported.
In USA, because of the availability of space and perhaps money (I found turning incredibly expensive!) more people, in percentage to the population and as an absolute number, are more numerous. A little of what happened in the eighteen century in which the british and german aristocracy turned for pleasure.
Without the american market Oneway and Robust i believe would not be here and so the myriad of hollowing tool manufacturer (many made in China?) and continuous rediscovering the warm water that is going on in the field.

Ya, Sergio......you are right about USA. Very expensive, and a whole subculture and commercial industry seems to have been created, especially since around 1990, or so.

I wouldn't know about England, but my guess is woodturning is very common there as a hobby. It's very much a rich tradition with them, I'd say.

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

The length of the wing determines the width of the shavings... Yep, Al.......that makes sense to me. I don't know how that knowledge applies to any applicable benefit to woodturning. I'm one who never takes as big a bite as possible. I've always been aware of the premise that it's a goal. It is something that some turning instructors, and demonstrators use it establish that sense of awe in their audience. This can happen, and does happen.....not in every case, but certainly does sometimes. When it does, most turners will be bewildered why a particular piece of wood isn't responding to final cuts and sanding, while other examples do. ooc

Odie,
That is why I consider the non bevel riding roughing cut an advanced cut. You have to be able to remove a 1/4" of wood to eliminate torn grain.
It takes a lot of experience to recognize when to stop roughing and switch to a bevel riding cut. Big shavings inherently create some tear out.

I much prefer the side ground gouge for hollowing a bowl.
I posted a link to this video in another thread. You can clearly see the width of the shavings.
And I have to take the cut into the end grain in 2-3 passes because the it is too much wood removal for the lathe at this speed.
Since this is a demonstration I'm turning slower and taking smaller bites than I would at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flw8LwQqGQU&feature=youtube_gdata

Where the video ends I would switch to s shear cut to clean the surface more. This is an advanced flut up cut that few people can learn from a video so I don't show it on YouTube.

How would you hollow a 10" bowl? Do the whole thing with finish cuts?
I enjoy the hollowing cut but my patience and enjoyment have a limit.

I enjoy making things almost as much as making shavings. When I make big shavings I cab make more things.
The trick in turning for me is to progress from 3/4 wide shavings to 1/64 wide shaving in a manner that leave a smooth surface on a spectacular curve.

Al

 

[Odie]

Odie,
That is why I consider the non bevel riding roughing cut an advanced cut. You have to be able to remove a 1/4" of wood to eliminate torn grain.
It takes a lot of experience to recognize when to stop roughing and switch to a bevel riding cut. Big shavings inherently create some tear out.

I much prefer the side ground gouge for hollowing a bowl.
I posted a link to this video in another thread. You can clearly see the width of the shavings.
And I have to take the cut into the end grain in 2-3 passes because the it is too much wood removal for the lathe at this speed.
Since this is a demonstration I'm turning slower and taking smaller bites than I would at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flw8LwQqGQU&feature=youtube_gdata

Where the video end I would switch to s shear cut to clean the surface more.

How would you hollow a 10" bowl? Do the whole thing with finish cuts?
I enjoy the hollowing cut but my patience and enjoyment have a limit.

Al

Well, I think I could teach you how to do it, and improve your results, Al..........

As with all things woodturning......results are the only thing that counts.

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

Well, I think I could teach you how to do it, and improve your results, Al.......... As with all things woodturning......results are the only thing that counts. ooc

Results and health!
10 excellent bowls in a day versus 2 excellent bowls in a day.
Results do count.

I'm always learning new things.
Come to Phoenix for the AAW. I plan to get together with Reed in his booth.

Al

 

[Odie]

Results and health!
10 excellent bowls in a day versus 2 excellent bowls in a day.
Results do count.

I'm always learning new things.

Al

Al......

Why not start a gallery on this AAW site, and keep it up to date?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is curious about your current works.

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

Al...... Why not start a gallery on this AAW site, and keep it up to date? I'm sure I'm not the only one who is curious about your current works. ooc

It is on a long list
Here is a photo of my practice piece for the Tampa show last year.
It is the DARK STORM RISING series. A captive globe in a winged bowl .
Globe is 3" diameter the bowl was 10" diameter
Bowl is red gum eucalyptus
Globe is maple.

Al

 

[Odie]

It is on a long list
Here is a photo of my practice piece for the Tampa show last year.
It is the DARK STORM RISING series. A captive globe in a winged bowl .
Globe is 3" diameter the bowl was 10" diameter
Bowl is red gum eucalyptus
Globe is maple.

Al

Very nice, Al.......

You do realize that you could have started your AAW gallery with the effort you invested in posting your image here today........right?

I looked at your web page, and didn't see any of your work there, either.

Since you have been someone who regularly posts and gives advice since 2004, it would be a great benefit to anyone absorbing your input, to apply that advice to your current turnings. I would expect no less inquisitiveness from anyone who contemplates my input, as well......

One other comment: You mentioned 10 bowls per day vs 2 per day. I'm not producing 2 per day, and I'd say my average isn't anywhere near 2/day......it's more like 2-3 per month, but plan to pick up the pace when I retire in one year. I wish I could make 10/day, and produce over 700 bowls per year, but darned glad I don't. I know that would make my passion for wood turning less than the absolute thrill it is for me now. I hope I never lose that sense of artistic satisfaction, and if this became a "job", I feel it certainly would.

ooc

 

[hughie]

Hello Hughie........

I believe it was Sergio that suggested that the hobby turner is not as prevalent in Europe as it is here in the USA. To me, that was a surprising revelation. I've seen a lot of artistic turning come from there. If I get what you're saying, the hobby turner down your way is the most prevalent. One thing is for sure, you do have a great supply of very exotic and beautiful woods in the South Pacific.....I've turned some of it!

ooc

Odie Thats pretty much it, many very talented turners making good use of the abundance of fine turning timber. I should imagine much of which is given away do the lack of access to decent markets/collectors etc

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi Odie

I feel sure you'll have seen this one before:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE

Bears no resemblance to modern turning but an interesting historical video.

Regarding the state of turning in the UK, I'd say it's pretty healthy, if ageing, which I'm sure is a pretty common theme!

I would suggest the UK has possibly the densest collection of woodturning clubs in the world. For example, I do around 30 demos a year, I am often re-booked every other year, so that's 60 clubs in 2 years with virtually no repeats, all within 3 hours of my workshop in the midlands - and that's not all of the clubs, there are still some I have never been to yet.

So turning in the UK is a big hobby. As far as the professional part goes, there is the RPT (Register of Professional Turners) which has about 270 members and are all supposed to be full time professionals. Some aren't and there are some pros that aren't on the register. Most of the members are aiming at the artistic/gallery market. As far as production turners like myself, there aren't that many.

Cheers

Richard

 

[Sergio Villa]

Thank for the video. Marvelous, so called german spindle gouge, in reality round chisel with bevel down for everything, spindle, hollowing and outside of bowl. Hook tool for the bottom of the bowl. Tool rest high above center. A lot to think about there. Thank you again.

 

[hockenbery]

Hi Odie I would suggest the UK has possibly the densest collection of woodturning clubs in the world. For example, I do around 30 demos a year, I am often re-booked every other year, so that's 60 clubs in 2 years with virtually no repeats, all within 3 hours of my workshop in the midlands - and that's not all of the clubs, there are still some I have never been to yet. So turning in the UK is a big hobby. As far as the professional part goes, there is the RPT (Register of Professional Turners) which has about 270 members and are all supposed to be full time professionals. Some aren't and there are some pros that aren't on the register. Most of the members are aiming at the artistic/gallery market. As far as production turners like myself, there aren't that many. Cheers Richard

Richard,
That is a lot of clubs in a 3 hour drive. We have a couple of your countrymen as winter residents and they talk about their clubs in England.
I never realized there were so many.
The densest place for woodturning in the US is the area around Washington DC.
THE 3 hour drive as a measurement is difficult as the dual carriage ways in that area function more as car parks for most of the day.

 

[john lucas]

I was trying to find a map of all club locations but have failed. We have at least 10 or 11 clubs I think within 3 hours of Nashville. I was hoping to find a location map on the AAW site. Seems like there used to be one somewhere. it would be handy for those of us who travel to demos to see who else might be in the area and then find out when they meet.