instant gallery

[Charlie Knighton]

how to make your turning the most looked at on a table in the instant gallery of a symposium?????????

is it:

form, finish, largeness, brownness, shiney, etc.

do you aspire for your turning to stand out or would you much rather blend in with the rest of the turnings on that table?????

2 questions......comments and your own questions asked for

 

[Odie]

how to make your turning the most looked at on a table in the instant gallery of a symposium?????????

is it:

form, finish, largeness, brownness, shiney, etc.

do you aspire for your turning to stand out or would you much rather blend in with the rest of the turnings on that table?????

2 questions......comments and your own questions asked for

Howdy Charlie.........

I've never been to an AAW symposium, but I've seen the videos.......😀

I'd say a goal to be a standout among this crowd is a bit too idealistic because everyone exhibiting there, is showing us their best works. As you say, a more realistic goal might be to blend in among that group who might be considered among the best at the showing. As for "form, finish, largeness, brownness, shiny, etc", unless a turner can come up with something truly unique, that nobody has ever done before.....which also has riveting style and universal appeal, it would be hard to use those things to target a turning with the stated goals in mind.

Then again, our tastes are so diverse, that "universal appeal" is something that will be darn near impossible to achieve.....ie: what appeals to me isn't going to be appreciated in the same way as everyone else sees it......and vise versa.

Now, if you were someone like a David Ellsworth, and were introducing something new, creative, and has that super appeal factor, you might be a standout........but, now everyone and their uncle are producing hollow forms with tiny openings. Even David Ellsworth wouldn't be a standout among the legions of turners who are his own personal "herd" of followers.......that is, if his fame weren't a part of the equation. What makes DE special to us now, is the pedestal he stands on! These hollow turnings are "ho hum" now, but were truly unique and awe inspiring a few decades ago, when DE rose to stardom......

I couldn't ever become the standout in the crowd, because my goals aren't in tune with those who aspire to stardom.....it's not a part of my equation. My personal goal is to achieve mastery over what I do......and, this means doing it not once, but consistently.....over, and over, and over, again. Most assuredly, there are those who are looking for that one thing, that "silver bullet", along with impeccable timing that catapults them to stardom.....and then ride that wave! However, there really isn't anything I do that someone else hasn't done before, so I'll never be a "star" among woodturners.......which brings it back full circle to what my real goals are in the first place! 😉

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

Charlie,

What catches my eye are forms and styles that are new to me.

I also like to look at familiar pieces and see where the artist is moving in a body of work.

I always look for hollow forms with nice curves and really nice bowls.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

how to make your turning the most looked at on a table in the instant gallery of a symposium?????????.....

I think having a goal like that is being too egocentric. Certainly, the first two things things you mentioned are worth doing well, but the others are incidental to being attractive in my mind. While we all would like for our work to draw praise, you can't force it to happen by a great sanding job or a perfectly smooth finish -- it won't come from superficial stuff. Even so, the workmanship does need to be outstanding or else it can kill an otherwise creative piece. You will need to let others decide if something is creative -- you can't tell them what does or doesn't attract their attention. Don't approach this from the perspective of drawing the most praise, but as an opportunity to show your best work. It is a place to learn. Find out what others like and what they don't like and why. No doubt, you will find a wide variety of opinions. Don't solicit opinions about your own work -- most people will always be kind in their remarks when confronted like that.

 

[hockenbery]

. My personal goal is to achieve mastery over what I do......and, this means doing it not once, but consistently.....over, Most assuredly, there are those who are looking for that one thing, that "silver bullet", along with impeccable timing that catapults them to stardom.....and then ride that wave! However, there really isn't anything I do that someone else hasn't done before, so I'll never be a "star" among woodturners.... ooc

You might be a star one day who knows.
The "stars" are folks who
Do something no one else does,
Do things better than most, or
Explain what they do better than most

There are stars who turn bowls. Nothing unique other than a few styles they repeat. They just turn them better than most.

Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

First, Charlie, the Instant Gallery is not a contest. If you go into it as a competitor you're most likely to come away disappointed. Its purpose is rather to share ideas. Obviously, if you put some on display, you want your pieces to be well received, but if your goal is a ribbon or certificate to hang on your wall, you have a very different purpose from what the IG was created to do. I'm a dedicated member of the Round-n-Brown Club, and I don't carve or pierce my stuff nor do I lacquer it to optical perfection (except on very rare pieces). My focus is on pure form and using finishes that complement my view of and enhance the qualities of the piece. I've put pieces in the IG that had no finish at all because the "look" I wanted was amplified by the "raw" wood surface. I have had my work chosen for the IG Critique and have received flattering comments on my efforts. I am, however, a hobbyist turner; I'm not looking to make a living at it nor do I aspire to be represented in the Renwick. Turning is not, after all, my art, and I don't need to make others feel they have somehow been confronted by a masterpiece.

All that said, if you cruise the IG you'll find the most noted work being comprised of surpassingly fine craftsmanship, unique and creative work that seems to open new areas for exploration, and new and creative treatment of old ideas.

While Odie may find Ellsworth's work "ho hum", you will have to look long and hard in the IG to find work that compares with his on the basis of purity of form and execution. David goes to the lathe as a sculptor; a very different outlook from those who put higher values on exotic materials and shiny surfaces.

 

[hockenbery]

First, Charlie, the Instant Gallery is not a contest.

While Odie may find Ellsworth's work "ho hum", you will have to look long and hard in the IG to find work that compares with his on the basis of purity of form and execution. David goes to the lathe as a sculptor; a very different outlook from those who put higher values on exotic materials and shiny surfaces.

Mark I agree the IG is not primarily a contest.
There are however some awards given to AAW IG participants and there is getting selected for the critique.

David is indeed a master of form.
His natural edge bowl demonstration is incredible!

I would also add that I don't think we have seen all that can be done with hollow forms yet.

Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

Mark I agree the IG is not primarily a contest.
There are however some awards given to AAW IG participants and there is getting selected for the critique.

I was indeed honored to be chosen for the critique, but a competitive ego will likely leave with a few bruises.

David is indeed a master of form.
His natural edge bowl demonstration is incredible!

I refer turners to his weekend total immersion lessons all the time. I do caution them to leave everything they think they know in the car and just follow what he gives you.

I would also add that I don't think we have seen all that can be done with hollow forms yet.

Al

I certainly hope not!😀

 

[hockenbery]

We have been lucky to have had David do several multi-day classes at our house.
And I had a week long class with David way back around 1995.
A tremendous and positive influence.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Lucky

We have been lucky to have had David do several multi-day classes at our house.
And I had a week long class with David way back around 1995.
A tremendous and positive influence.

I live less than an hour away from his studio/classroom; close enough to be a pest! 😀😉

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

I am a turner who is too timid to place a piece in any instant gallery other than the club show and tell.
When at a symposium I spend a LOT of time in the IG and other gallery displays.
I am surprised by what catches my eye as I make subsequent passes.
It seems that I never 'see' all of the pieces.
I swear that one was not there the last time I walked that aisle.
My eye is caught by a piece ( or pieces ), I focus on it , perhaps take a picture, and move on.
What catches my eye?
Sometimes it is a 'what the heck' piece that stands out because it seems out of place.
Beautiful or ugly , plain or decorated. At times it is obvious that someone tried too hard.
A beautiful grain matched with an appropriate finish. Subtle differences sometimes make a world of difference.
For a while some of the 'lead turners' in my club all used Waterlox on everything. Soon every show and tell was shiny plastic looking.
Since then they have found that a little goes a long way.
On the right piece it is perfect.
Sometimes whether I focus on a piece depends on the surrounding work.
Most times the placement of a piece makes a lot of difference.
A round and brown piece sitting on the table next to some mirrored stand with stuff on it will probably loose my focus at first glance.
That is why I try and make multiple passes and purposefully look at every piece at least once.

I suppose that being the piece that Stands Out does not mean that it is the best work on the table.
Perhaps it just made you look, like drivers slowing down to look at an accident or a traffic stop.
Or it could be je ne sais quoi (uncountable)

An intangible quality that makes something distinctive or attractive.
The piece has a certain je ne sais quoi about it.

 

[hockenbery]

I am a turner who is too timid to place a piece in any instant gallery other than the club show and tell.
. I am surprised by what catches my eye as I make subsequent passes. It seems that I never 'see' all of the pieces. I swear that one was not there the last time I walked that aisle. stop.

The instant gallery is just a big show with no tell. You should participate next time you get a chance.

I'm like you seeing pieces for the first time every walk through, even though they were there before.

 

[Richard Coers]

Howdy Charlie.........

I've never been to an AAW symposium, but I've seen the videos.......😀

I'd say a goal to be a standout among this crowd is a bit too idealistic because everyone exhibiting there, is showing us their best works. As you say, a more realistic goal might be to blend in among that group who might be considered among the best at the showing. As for "form, finish, largeness, brownness, shiny, etc", unless a turner can come up with something truly unique, that nobody has ever done before.....which also has riveting style and universal appeal, it would be hard to use those things to target a turning with the stated goals in mind.

Then again, our tastes are so diverse, that "universal appeal" is something that will be darn near impossible to achieve.....ie: what appeals to me isn't going to be appreciated in the same way as everyone else sees it......and vise versa.

Now, if you were someone like a David Ellsworth, and were introducing something new, creative, and has that super appeal factor, you might be a standout........but, now everyone and their uncle are producing hollow forms with tiny openings. Even David Ellsworth wouldn't be a standout among the legions of turners who are his own personal "herd" of followers.......that is, if his fame weren't a part of the equation. What makes DE special to us now, is the pedestal he stands on! These hollow turnings are "ho hum" now, but were truly unique and awe inspiring a few decades ago, when DE rose to stardom......

I couldn't ever become the standout in the crowd, because my goals aren't in tune with those who aspire to stardom.....it's not a part of my equation. My personal goal is to achieve mastery over what I do......and, this means doing it not once, but consistently.....over, and over, and over, again. Most assuredly, there are those who are looking for that one thing, that "silver bullet", along with impeccable timing that catapults them to stardom.....and then ride that wave! However, there really isn't anything I do that someone else hasn't done before, so I'll never be a "star" among woodturners.......which brings it back full circle to what my real goals are in the first place! 😉

ooc

Have you ever seen David's work in person? Categorizing anyone's work ho hum while only seeing a video is quite unfair. Giving advice with never attending is a bit like those, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night experts!

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night experts!

... are you saying that staying in a Holiday Inn Express is not all that I have been led to believe? 🙄 😀

I feel like I do things well -- monotonically increasing or decreasing curves (or Bézier and other well behaved geometric curves -- things that relates to my mathematics background) along with a very well done finish. That seems to be what I am known for in my club -- not as someone with great creative ability -- we have several people in the club who really are creative. I have been working on getting my right brain in gear, but the clutch keeps slipping back to my stodgy old left brain which doesn't want to relinquish its control.

 

[Odie]

While Odie may find Ellsworth's work "ho hum", you will have to look long and hard in the IG to find work that compares with his on the basis of purity of form and execution. David goes to the lathe as a sculptor; a very different outlook from those who put higher values on exotic materials and shiny surfaces.

Just a little clarification to address Mark's misunderstanding of what I said in a previous post......this seems to happen often with Mark. Maybe it's his attempt to purposefully misconceive what I say for his own personal reasons........

I do not consider David Ellsworth's work to be "ho hum", but since so many are now doing what he does, the general concept of the hollow form is becoming "ho hum".......

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Just a little clarification to address Mark's misunderstanding of what I said in a previous post......this seems to happen often with Mark. Maybe it's his attempt to purposefully misconceive what I say for his own personal reasons........

I do not consider David Ellsworth's work to be "ho hum", but since so many are now doing what he does, the general concept of the hollow form is becoming "ho hum".......

ooc

" Even David Ellsworth wouldn't be a standout among the legions of turners who are his own personal "herd" of followers.......that is, if his fame weren't a part of the equation. What makes DE special to us now, is the pedestal he stands on! These hollow turnings are "ho hum" now, "

It's alright if you'd like to back off from what you wrote, Odie, but your prior statement was quite clear so don't try to blame your plain meaning on me, lest you get a statement that wood bowls, shiny or otherwise, are "ho hum". I do try to make it a point not to insult people here with value judgments about their work. I don't always succeed, but I did not "misinterpret" your statement that was both unequivocal and unsupported, and displayed a clear lack of appreciation for the work of others.

I need not defend David Ellsworth here. His body of work and contribution to the entire endeavor of turning wood into beautiful and meaningful objects is so far above your efforts at shiny bowls that I need say nothing further except to question:

Whose "herd" do you belong to, Odie?

While we're "at it", I'll note again that you have a distinct predilection to question the veracity of anyone on this forum who does not share your compulsion to post photographs of their work. You might want to reconsider that attitude, and, since you appear to sell objects you post in the annexed gallery, your might also consider paying something of a commission to the AAW that makes it possible for you to get the free advertising.

But then, maybe not.

 

[Odie]

You might be a star one day who knows.
The "stars" are folks who
Do something no one else does,
Do things better than most, or
Explain what they do better than most

There are stars who turn bowls. Nothing unique other than a few styles they repeat. They just turn them better than most.

Al

Thanks, but I really doubt it, Al......

Most of those who are a "star" among the woodturning community, aspire to become one......it is their personal goal. Nothing wrong with that.....just not my objective.

For someone like me, who could care less about anything but my own progress and performance, and am unwilling to present myself to the "community" in the usual ways, it's highly unlikely that my becoming a star would ever happen. Nobody here has ever seen me, and only a few AAW members know who I am. No other turner has ever set foot in my shop. I don't go to AAW functions, or socialize with turners, or go to meetings. I don't give a hoot about being a "star".......but, I darn sure do my utmost to "reach for the stars" in my own personal way!......I'm pretty sure there are a few other turners who are on the same page with me on this.

ooc

 

[Odie]

" Even David Ellsworth wouldn't be a standout among the legions of turners who are his own personal "herd" of followers.......that is, if his fame weren't a part of the equation. What makes DE special to us now, is the pedestal he stands on! These hollow turnings are "ho hum" now, "

It's alright if you'd like to back off from what you wrote, Odie, but your prior statement was quite clear so don't try to blame your plain meaning on me, lest you get a statement that wood bowls, shiny or otherwise, are "ho hum". I do try to make it a point not to insult people here with value judgments about their work. I don't always succeed, but I did not "misinterpret" your statement that was both unequivocal and unsupported, and displayed a clear lack of appreciation for the work of others.

I need not defend David Ellsworth here. His body of work and contribution to the entire endeavor of turning wood into beautiful and meaningful objects is so far above your efforts at shiny bowls that I need say nothing further except to question:

Whose "herd" do you below to, Odie?

While we're "at it", I'll note again that you have a distinct predilection to question the veracity of anyone on this forum who does not share your compulsion to post photographs of their work. You might want to reconsider that attitude, and, since you appear to sell objects you post in the annexed gallery, your might also consider paying something of a commission to the AAW that makes it possible for you to get the free advertising.

But then, maybe not.

I'm not backing off from anything I said, Mark......I said exactly what I meant the first time. How many times will it take for you to read the words and understand what they say?

Posting photographs of your work is merely putting some substance to the meaning of the discussion on woodturning......

I haven't sold any bowls, resulting from someone seeing them in the AAW gallery. I doubt very many people shop on the AAW gallery, and those who do see these photos are interested only in contributions from other members.

ooc

 

[Andy Chen]

First, Charlie, the Instant Gallery is not a contest. If you go into it as a competitor you're most likely to come away disappointed. Its purpose is rather to share ideas. Obviously, if you put some on display, you want your pieces to be well received, but if your goal is a ribbon or certificate to hang on your wall, you have a very different purpose from what the IG was created to do. I'm a dedicated member of the Round-n-Brown Club, and I don't carve or pierce my stuff nor do I lacquer it to optical perfection (except on very rare pieces). My focus is on pure form and using finishes that complement my view of and enhance the qualities of the piece. I've put pieces in the IG that had no finish at all because the "look" I wanted was amplified by the "raw" wood surface. I have had my work chosen for the IG Critique and have received flattering comments on my efforts. I am, however, a hobbyist turner; I'm not looking to make a living at it nor do I aspire to be represented in the Renwick. Turning is not, after all, my art, and I don't need to make others feel they have somehow been confronted by a masterpiece.

All that said, if you cruise the IG you'll find the most noted work being comprised of surpassingly fine craftsmanship, unique and creative work that seems to open new areas for exploration, and new and creative treatment of old ideas.

While Odie may find Ellsworth's work "ho hum", you will have to look long and hard in the IG to find work that compares with his on the basis of purity of form and execution. David goes to the lathe as a sculptor; a very different outlook from those who put higher values on exotic materials and shiny surfaces.

Well said, Mark.

 

[hockenbery]

Thanks, but I really doubt it, Al...... Most of those who are a "star" among the woodturning community, aspire to become one......it is their personal goal. Nothing wrong with that.....just not my objective. For someone like me, who could care less about anything but my own progress and performance, and am unwilling to present myself to the "community" in the usual ways, it's highly unlikely that my becoming a star would ever happen. Nobody here has ever seen me, and only a few AAW members know who I am. No other turner has ever set foot in my shop. I don't go to AAW functions, or socialize with turners, or go to meetings. I don't give a hoot about being a "star".......but, I darn sure do my utmost to "reach for the stars" in my own personal way!......I'm pretty sure there are a few other turners who are on the same page with me on this. ooc

Your presence on the forum indicates you do socialize with other turners.
You have developed your own style of turning.

Treat yourself to a weekend class with Ellsworth, Bosch, Clewes.... it would open your eyes to new possibilities
and give you set of advanced techniques to use.
I understand you are happy with where you are turning, but you have nothing with which to compare.
A class would confirm you have better techniques than the leaders of the herd.

Bosch is closest and he runs an excellent classes and worked for years as a production bowl turner.

Al

 

[Odie]

Your presence on the forum indicates you do socialize with other turners.
You have developed your own style of turning.

Treat yourself to a weekend class with Ellsworth, Bosch, Clewes.... it would open your eyes to new possibilities
and give you set of advanced techniques to use.
I understand you are happy with where you are turning, but you have nothing with which to compare.
A class would confirm you have better techniques than the leaders of the herd.

Bosch is closest and he runs an excellent classes and worked for years as a production bowl turner.

Al

G'Mornin' Al........

Technically, I guess you are right about "socializing", I do connect with other turners here, but only in a cyber sense.

Having "nothing with which to compare" is the whole point, and a very positive one, at that! (It might take a bit of mental wrestling to get a handle on what that means.....because, and, for some.....an understanding of that meaning isn't possible, and will never come!)

For many turners, a class might be a good thing......but, I have philosophical reasons for rejecting the notion that it would be a good thing for me. You see, I have a theory about individuality, and how that is influenced by the times we live in. I'm experiencing my own development very much the same as a craftsman would have done a hundred+ years ago. It's all about solitude, and going into one's own shop and learning to find results completely by his own initiative. Personal style is the result of doing the time in your shop, and developing your own methods......what you get in a class is generic, and if taken in at the wrong time, will change the course of your own progress. This can be bad, as well as good, but there is not enough time left on my clock for continually turning back once I've traveled a road that leads to results I'm not satisfied with. Results are that by which any individual can judge his own directions......and, if he feels those directions would be better to not be influenced by other than individual input, it's a valid choice to make.

These are the things I allow to influence my own directions, and everyone can make their own judgments about how the fundamental effects of these decisions may influence the outcome of their own performance.

ooc

 

[Charlie Knighton]

instant gallery....a collection of interest leading to passion

 

[hockenbery]

Odie,
A 100 years ago all the crafts people did apprenticeships.
Very structured environment. Today there is much less training.

You are at an excellent time to take a class. The studio classes by Ellsworth, Bosch, Clewes are tailored to you.
Lots of individual one on one. You would be the only one to ever get your class!

You have the background to take a big leap in technique.
Adopting some new ones and reinforcing the ones that work.
And best of all getting a firsthand knowledge of how true masters work.

I get invited to demonstrate lots of places because I am good with the tools I use, do nice work, and explain what i do reasonably well. It is great fun to share what I know and give others encouragement.
I was self taught and getting good results. After a class with Liam O'neill and a year later with David Ellsworth, my technique totally evolved.
I kept some things I learned on my own and adopted methods and tools from Liam and David.
I have continued to learn new things and explore unique work.
I still get a sense of awe watching David turn.

For me most of the fun is using the tools well and watching shape emerge from a block of wood.

Al

 

[Betty Scarpino]

Personal style is the result of doing the time in your shop, and developing your own methods......what you get in a class is generic, and if taken in at the wrong time, will change the course of your own progress.

ooc

Hi Odie,
Definitely true that personal style requires doing the time in your own shop and developing your own methods.

Many classes are generic, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because most of the generic-taylored classes are offered to teach skills and new approaches. Take what you want from what you learn, apply it to your work in your own personal way, and leave the rest.

There are classes offered by excellent instructors who teach in a manner that will help students discover their own approach. Some instructors have been known to liberate a student from his or her own narrow thinking. Steve Loar is one of those instructors and I took several design classes from him at Arrowmont in the mid 1990s. While I didn't incorporate everything I learned there into my work, the most important thing I took away from Steve's teachings was that when most people approach designing a solution, given a set of limitations, they will come up with the seven or eight ideas that everyone else will think of. He called that the "McDonalds" type of design. Then he taught us how to think and design beyond the generic solutions.

Michael Hosaluk is another one of those instructors whose teaching style can liberate students from their own limitations. I took a class from him, too, in the early 1990s (again at Arrowmont). Amazing things I learned, most of all that even though I thought I'd been very creative with my solution to his design problem, when he examined the piece I made, he turned it upside-down and said, "wow, that works too!" It never occurred to me that the piece I made could be displayed any other way than I originally intended. So, while I had stepped far away from my own limitations, I had much further to go.

From these two class experiences, I learned that there are still many design possibilities beyond what I'm currently making and that it's fun to explore in a setting where the instructor embrace students' personal approach.

From what you've written, I gather you have convinced yourself that all the answers lie within. Maybe that does, indeed, work for you, but because my experience has been so joyously different, expanding my world beyond what I could have imagined, I'm happy to have had those opportunities.

Does my work look like Steve Loar's or Michael Hosaluk's? Not in the least! Nor does it look line any other students' work from those classes. What we bring to a classroom setting is important: a mind open to possibilities we could not have imagined. Those classes definitely changed the course of my progress ... thank goodness!

Betty Scarpino
www.bettyscarpino.com

 

[Odie]

Odie,
A 100 years ago all the crafts people did apprenticeships.
Very structured environment. Today there is much less training.

You are at an excellent time to take a class. The studio classes by Ellsworth, Bosch, Clewes are tailored to you.
Lots of individual one on one. You would be the only one to ever get your class!

You have the background to take a big leap in technique.
Adopting some new ones and reinforcing the ones that work.
And best of all getting a firsthand knowledge of how true masters work.

I get invited to demonstrate lots of places because I am good with the tools I use, do nice work, and explain what i do reasonably well. It is great fun to share what I know and give others encouragement.
I was self taught and getting good results. After a class with Liam O'neill and a year later with David Ellsworth, my technique totally evolved.
I kept some things I learned on my own and adopted methods and tools from Liam and David.
I have continued to learn new things and explore unique work.
I still get a sense of awe watching David turn.

For me most of the fun is using the tools well and watching shape emerge from a block of wood.

Al

Hi Al.......correction

100 years ago, many craftsmen didn't have the opportunity to apprentice. Some of them may have wanted to do that, but couldn't because the limitations of the times. Those limitations have been greatly addressed by our much smaller world. Some did persevere, and managed to go on, even though they probably had unanswered questions.....which they eventually resolved.....sometimes in very unique and unorthodox ways. The result of all this was probably less craftsmen in the "gene pool", because they didn't have the personal stamina to go on......and quit. However, there are others who never did give up, and became outstanding craftsmen and artists who had completely unique methods and style.

Hi Odie,
Definitely true that personal style requires doing the time in your own shop and developing your own methods.

Many classes are generic, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because most of the generic-taylored classes are offered to teach skills and new approaches. Take what you want from what you learn, apply it to your work in your own personal way, and leave the rest.

There are classes offered by excellent instructors who teach in a manner that will help students discover their own approach. Some instructors have been known to liberate a student from his or her own narrow thinking. Steve Loar is one of those instructors and I took several design classes from him at Arrowmont in the mid 1990s. While I didn't incorporate everything I learned there into my work, the most important thing I took away from Steve's teachings was that when most people approach designing a solution, given a set of limitations, they will come up with the seven or eight ideas that everyone else will think of. He called that the "McDonalds" type of design. Then he taught us how to think and design beyond the generic solutions.

Michael Hosaluk is another one of those instructors whose teaching style can liberate students from their own limitations. I took a class from him, too, in the early 1990s (again at Arrowmont). Amazing things I learned, most of all that even though I thought I'd been very creative with my solution to his design problem, when he examined the piece I made, he turned it upside-down and said, "wow, that works too!" It never occurred to me that the piece I made could be displayed any other way than I originally intended. So, while I had stepped far away from my own limitations, I had much further to go.

From these two class experiences, I learned that there are still many design possibilities beyond what I'm currently making and that it's fun to explore in a setting where the instructor embrace students' personal approach.

From what you've written, I gather you have convinced yourself that all the answers lie within. Maybe that does, indeed, work for you, but because my experience has been so joyously different, expanding my world beyond what I could have imagined, I'm happy to have had those opportunities.

Does my work look like Steve Loar's or Michael Hosaluk's? Not in the least! Nor does it look line any other students' work from those classes. What we bring to a classroom setting is important: a mind open to possibilities we could not have imagined. Those classes definitely changed the course of my progress ... thank goodness!

Betty Scarpino
www.bettyscarpino.com

Good morning, Betty.....

Betty, there is nothing wrong with taking some classes, and it's a good way to go for most people who want to learn. I turned for twenty years before I made any contact with any other turners at all, with the exception of several books an videos. When I finally did seek out some input from others, it was right here on the AAW forums. I wanted to attend a class at CSUSA in the early 1990's, and just couldn't afford it, or take the time off to do it. I suppose it was sometime in the late 1990's when I realized that because of my circumstances, I had evolved to do things very much differently than what is considered standard procedures. I'm not talking about my personal style with that comment, I'm talking about the mechanics of making a bowl.....procedures, tool handling, tool sharpening, tool preferences, special jigs, thought processes, all of these things have evolved for me without outside influence. At some point, I decided I didn't want anyone else's input.....because, I felt unique, and I knew I would find a way to get the results I wanted. (I have no lack of self-confidence, and I'm not one who gives up easily!) If I had not been getting some sense of satisfaction with the bowls I were making, then everything I had been leading myself to believe was then irrelevant.......but, the results/satisfaction I was getting, and continue to get, is the reason I just keep doing what I always have done......

Besides your input here, I've heard about the advantages of taking classes from many others, as well......but, how would you know how you would have evolved without any formal instruction? I really don't think you can answer that question, and neither can I when asking the same question about myself. All I know is some very creative craftsmen have evolved without following the accepted theories for success......and, unless I see this to the end, I won't know if generally accepted practices could have made a positive difference for my turnings.......and it's fairly certain that formal training would have made some difference......I can only speculate what it would/could have been. I don't have enough time left on this earth to turn back the clock 30 years to find out. For me, I'd have to live two separate lives with two separate philosophies to find that answer. Since I can't do that, I have to make my choice and run with that ball......and, let the chips fall where they may.

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

Betty, that is an exceptional way of describing how and what we take from a class. I have had numerous classes from excellent instructors and they have been of great benefit in enabling me to develop my own expression.

Clubs do mentoring for beginners to teach the basics. Those are the tools that give the beginner a jump start. We have also invited some of the nationally known turners to do similar teaching, but at a more advanced level. Each of these people do things in a slightly different manner. Back in the days of apprenticeships, things were very rigid. That had its benefits for continuing a style into the future, but it also restricted exploration of other ways of doing things or developing new forms.

The advanced classes that I have taken start with the assumption that you already know how to turn. From there the goal is to help you expand your horizons.

If all this sharing of ideas has made me into a herd creature, then "Baaaa....aaaah!"

 

[Mark Mandell]

Hi Odie,
Definitely true that personal style requires doing the time in your own shop and developing your own methods.

Many classes are generic, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because most of the generic-taylored classes are offered to teach skills and new approaches. Take what you want from what you learn, apply it to your work in your own personal way, and leave the rest.

There are classes offered by excellent instructors who teach in a manner that will help students discover their own approach. Some instructors have been known to liberate a student from his or her own narrow thinking. Steve Loar is one of those instructors and I took several design classes from him at Arrowmont in the mid 1990s. While I didn't incorporate everything I learned there into my work, the most important thing I took away from Steve's teachings was that when most people approach designing a solution, given a set of limitations, they will come up with the seven or eight ideas that everyone else will think of. He called that the "McDonalds" type of design. Then he taught us how to think and design beyond the generic solutions.

Michael Hosaluk is another one of those instructors whose teaching style can liberate students from their own limitations. I took a class from him, too, in the early 1990s (again at Arrowmont). Amazing things I learned, most of all that even though I thought I'd been very creative with my solution to his design problem, when he examined the piece I made, he turned it upside-down and said, "wow, that works too!" It never occurred to me that the piece I made could be displayed any other way than I originally intended. So, while I had stepped far away from my own limitations, I had much further to go.

From these two class experiences, I learned that there are still many design possibilities beyond what I'm currently making and that it's fun to explore in a setting where the instructor embrace students' personal approach.

From what you've written, I gather you have convinced yourself that all the answers lie within. Maybe that does, indeed, work for you, but because my experience has been so joyously different, expanding my world beyond what I could have imagined, I'm happy to have had those opportunities.

Does my work look like Steve Loar's or Michael Hosaluk's? Not in the least! Nor does it look line any other students' work from those classes. What we bring to a classroom setting is important: a mind open to possibilities we could not have imagined. Those classes definitely changed the course of my progress ... thank goodness!

Betty Scarpino
www.bettyscarpino.com

Well put, Betty. Direct exposure to others' work and view points in an atmosphere of openness and investigation is an unparalleled opportunity to learn and expand one's knowledge and skills. But regardless of how great the "teacher" may be, the learning process depends upon the ability and willingness of the student to learn. I had been turning for a number of years with sessions with several instructors to my "credit" before I spent a weekend at David's place. I went in believing I knew one end of a bowl gouge from the other. Long about noon on that Friday, I had to do some very serious reshuffling of my knowledge base. That kind of situation can be incredibly energizing for some, but impossibly threatening for others. That's why I tell the people I refer to David's to leave everything they think they know at the door and concentrate only on what he is teaching. They will have lots of time to sort it all out later. That's probably true of many classes run by truly accomplished teachers.

 

[Sergio Villa]

I would like to make a couple of points that stem from my professional life without going into details. When it comes to theory nothing beats books and heavy study. When it comes to practice nothing helps more and prevents mistakes than practicing with a more experienced person. The better that person is the better the practice but...you cannot get juice out of a turnip (at least by hand). In particular, for certain type of skills , mainly precisions skills, even a good teacher is impotent if the pupil is not to that inclined.
Now we live in a word in which there is youtube, CD, DVD and other visual help for whom who wants to learn in that way and I found that there are excellent teacher there together with mediocre ones. This for the technique point.

For larger horizons everyone is free to chose their own. I have seen beautiful things and mediocre things by so called masters. But this is normal. A master before making a real masterpiece has to practice too otherwise he repeats himself.
By the way, in my opinion the real beauty rests in simplicity, in visual impact and...utility. A simple utilitarian bowl is not goof if is not useful. Much better if it is easy to use, wash etc. In this I am, I believe with R. Raffan. A real master of simplicity in my opinion.

As far as improvement goes I strongly believe in criticism. The stronger the criticism the better for me. I do not feel bad if somebody points to the wrong things in my turning. I get the criticism and decide what to do with it. Usually I agree with the critic. But unfortunately, for one reason or another very few people criticize the work on the gallery. That is why I took all my pictures out of there. Could not care less for having pictures of my work posted if I do not know what other people think of them. Seriously.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Hi Al.......correction

100 years ago, many craftsmen didn't have the opportunity to apprentice. Some of them may have wanted to do that, but couldn't because the limitations of the times. Those limitations have been greatly addressed by our much smaller world. Some did persevere, and managed to go on, even though they probably had unanswered questions.....which they eventually resolved.....sometimes in very unique and unorthodox ways. The result of all this was probably less craftsmen in the "gene pool", because they didn't have the personal stamina to go on......and quit. However, there are others who never did give up, and became outstanding craftsmen and artists who had completely unique methods and style.



Good morning, Betty.....

Betty, there is nothing wrong with taking some classes, and it's a good way to go for most people who want to learn. I turned for twenty years before I made any contact with any other turners at all, with the exception of several books an videos. When I finally did seek out some input from others, it was right here on the AAW forums. I wanted to attend a class at CSUSA in the early 1990's, and just couldn't afford it, or take the time off to do it. I suppose it was sometime in the late 1990's when I realized that because of my circumstances, I had evolved to do things very much differently than what is considered standard procedures. I'm not talking about my personal style with that comment, I'm talking about the mechanics of making a bowl.....procedures, tool handling, tool sharpening, tool preferences, special jigs, thought processes, all of these things have evolved for me without outside influence. At some point, I decided I didn't want anyone else's input.....because, I felt unique, and I knew I would find a way to get the results I wanted. (I have no lack of self-confidence, and I'm not one who gives up easily!) If I had not been getting some sense of satisfaction with the bowls I were making, then everything I had been leading myself to believe was then irrelevant.......but, the results/satisfaction I was getting, and continue to get, is the reason I just keep doing what I always have done......

Besides your input here, I've heard about the advantages of taking classes from many others, as well......but, how would you know how you would have evolved without any formal instruction? I really don't think you can answer that question, and neither can I when asking the same question about myself. All I know is some very creative craftsmen have evolved without following the accepted theories for success......and, unless I see this to the end, I won't know if generally accepted practices could have made a positive difference for my turnings.......and it's fairly certain that formal training would have made some difference......I can only speculate what it would/could have been. I don't have enough time left on this earth to turn back the clock 30 years to find out. For me, I'd have to live two separate lives with two separate philosophies to find that answer. Since I can't do that, I have to make my choice and run with that ball......and, let the chips fall where they may.

ooc

Odie, I will have to agree with the other posters today. I would like to restate and maybe summarize what has been said. While developing you style " on your own" is admirable it is NEVER "on your own". You will be influenced by things you see all over the place including architecture and photographs. Your self style development will most likely be slower than if you accepted class room influence. Just because you had a class does not mean you will use the style taught by the instructor, It only means you were exposed and may use parts of the style demonstrated.
I have only had one class and may take more later . Even though I have retired I do not look at the shorter road ahead than behind, but live for the present and plan on enjoying it. From the class I took last year with Dixie Biggs I do not plan on doing exactly what she does, just to use the methods to arrive at some other pieces besides "round and brown". You Must remember that all you do in your "style" is an amalgam not only of your turning experience, but your entire life experience. Open yourself up to the world and even if you cannot afford the classes; seek out others to share with at least. The in person experience at clubs is well worth the effort.

 

[Odie]

Odie, I will have to agree with the other posters today. I would like to restate and maybe summarize what has been said. While developing you style " on your own" is admirable it is NEVER "on your own". You will be influenced by things you see all over the place including architecture and photographs. Your self style development will most likely be slower than if you accepted class room influence. Just because you had a class does not mean you will use the style taught by the instructor, It only means you were exposed and may use parts of the style demonstrated.
I have only had one class and may take more later . Even though I have retired I do not look at the shorter road ahead than behind, but live for the present and plan on enjoying it. From the class I took last year with Dixie Biggs I do not plan on doing exactly what she does, just to use the methods to arrive at some other pieces besides "round and brown". You Must remember that all you do in your "style" is an amalgam not only of your turning experience, but your entire life experience. Open yourself up to the world and even if you cannot afford the classes; seek out others to share with at least. The in person experience at clubs is well worth the effort.

Thanks Gerald.......

I'm well aware of the general feeling about taking a class, and as I said, I felt the same way at one time......however, after having been turning for 32 years now, I'm well on my way to developing my personal style, and turning techniques. At this point I feel my philosophy is paying off for me, and I didn't see this coming until in the past ten or so years. I'm comfortable in my journey, and now that I have some hind sight, I feel I've taken the best path.

This is not to assume that others should do what I have done, but historically, a few have.......😀

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

Thanks Gerald....... I'm well aware of the general feeling about taking a class, and as I said, I felt the same way at one time......however, after having been turning for 32 years now, I'm well on my way to developing my personal style, and turning techniques. At this point I feel my philosophy is paying off for me, and I didn't see this coming until in the past ten or so years. I'm comfortable in my journey, and now that I have some hind sight, I feel I've taken the best path. This is not to assume that others should do what I have done, but historically, a few have.......😀 ooc

Now that you are close to your own mountaintop would be and excellent time for you to take one of the advanced or personalized classes.

In 32 years you seemed to have reached a level of work you are satisfied with.
I have never seen your work so don't know if I would be drawn to it in an Instant Gallery.
Photos look like you are doing fine work.

I have seen the work and progress of a friend and local turner, who has been turning about 8 years.
He took a bunch of classes and then started helping run classes with national turners.
He is now achieving international fame and recognition. He has won awards for his work and sold some over $1800
This summer he demoed at AAW and two regional symposiums.

Few have the passion and drive to accomplish so much in so short a time.
I am just glad he didn't take the 32 year route.

Al

 

[Sergio Villa]

I already posted what I think on this subject and in any craft or profession. Theory, study, books, practice with an experienced fellow (something I did not do for turning).
But this almost obsession for taking classes seems to me exaggerated and perhaps partial since many turners make a living teaching because turning itself does not produce enough income.
I go to fairs and have good feedback.
Having said that I would like to point that turning is also a past time, a way to keep brain, fantasy and body in motion and to challenge himself to new horizons. Why not doing it by himself, mainly when the hard work of learning the basic has been already done.

 

[Lionel Mercier]

Two things to answer Charlie :
* - Looking at an exhibition, what catches my eye, it is the big pieces (like a lot people) but what I 'm searching for, they are the pieces I do not understand. The "how did he do that."
Prospective small flaws, I did not notice, what I'm seeking for is beauty, the pieces who question.
Maybe humor... certainly !

* - For me, my first goal is to make me happy with my work
Certainly, I'm unhappy if my pieces are totally ignored, but I would prefer to show outstanding pieces blended in the crowd rather than standing alone on a pedestal.
Pedestals are uncomfortable places.

That said, I don't participe galleries or contests. The only place I share my work is the forums, and they (the pieces) are never blend in the crowd...they are lonely on the pics and my big concern is : How can I feature them the best, telling a story, suggesting a sittuation...

-------------------------------------
To the question debated about courses (classes) I can not provide any more than what I think:
Like Odie, I'm self taught . It's a matter of time and history.
There is now many ways to learn, thanks to the internet,
But I think that contact with an instructor may be profitable.
Provided that it is a direct contact - an instructor and one or at most two students - I rely on to say that, on the experience made by a turner I know (by internet) He took two classes under these conditions :
one with Alain Mailland and one with Christophe Nancey .
In the pieces he displays, we feel this training and its influence
but what he learned mostly (I think) is a protocol that allows him to do it faster, easier and better
He acquired the tools and thinking. It is up to him now to apply it to what he dreams.

The pieces I turn are not (for many of them) my own think tank. If I forget to say, you see immediately from where they come...
it would have been much easier if Angelino, Scott, Mailland, Bosch and others had told me, had taught me how to do.
I was intrigued, I did search after the solution...I found some on my own,
This way, I found myself happy
This way, I understand Odie's approach.
Turning may be a living to earn, turning may be a living to play and enjoy
I choose the game.

 

[hockenbery]

obsession for taking classes seems to me exaggerated

Guilty as charged! 🙂

I definitely believe quality classes are most effective investment of time and money that new turners can make.

I think we can always improve our skills, improve our understanding of design, and explore ways to improve our creativity.
Advance classes, collaborative events, symposiums, books, DVDs, discussions, and perhaps even forums can serve this need.

I do not believe there is any turner who cannot benefit from a quality class.

Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

I Suggest a New Thread

on the topic of classes. The reason being this subject got brought up as repeated posts directed to Odie, in response to which he has said, several times in several ways, that he has less than no interest in classes and will not take any. Whether anyone agrees with his view or not, to keep pounding the topic inside this thread implies both argument with and a lack of respect for his clearly stated very personal belief. Mr. Odie may be the only who feels the way he does, but he need not be continually challenged to reply on the subject, let alone argue for his preference.

By all means, start a new thread on the perceived benefits of turning classes to turners on all levels of skill.

 

[Sergio Villa]

Guilty as charged! 🙂

I definitely believe quality classes are most effective investment of time and money that new turners can make.

I think we can always improve our skills, improve our understanding of design, and explore ways to improve our creativity.
Advance classes, collaborative events, symposiums, books, DVDs, discussions, and perhaps even forums can serve this need.

I do not believe there is any turner who cannot benefit from a quality class.

Al

Did you read my posts?

 

[john lucas]

My goal when I teach classes is to help each turner improve their skills. We do have a project because everyone wants that but I would much rather they go home with new or improved skills. I learn things from my students since they often learn to turn on their own and may have an interesting technique. Sometimes I learn simply by trying to answer their questions. I've been turning for about 30 years and I still learn things when I go to demos. I seldom take classes any more but it's not because I don't think I would learn something. I think many are missing the main point. I was asked by the last 2 instructors in classes I took why I was there. They knew me and the skills I have. I told them simply, I'm here to have fun, and I did. And by gosh I did learn something.
I will admit somewhere in the middle of my turning growth I also thought David Ellsworth's and yes even my friend John Jordan's work was boring. It was my ignorance. it takes a while to learn to appreciate the intricacies of their work. I love both now because I understand the subtle differences and hope some day to produce work at that level. It also helps appreciate the work that is displayed at the AAW instant Gallery.
I will also admit to making pieces just to try to stand out from the crowd at the AAW symposium. In fact my first symposium piece was called "just another face in the crowd" David Ellsworth did pick it up in the instant gallery critic and said, this is different. Don't know why he picked these colors. The someone in the crowd said, look theirs a face in there, and he said Oh yea and put it down. Well I guess it did get noticed. I was studying contrast and negative spaces when I created the piece but I guess that went unnoticed although he did pick it up.
Most of the time when I bring things to the instant gallery it's to expand my skills or my way of thinking. Sometimes it pays off, I've had 3 pieces in the national show. My Tin Man was one of them. When your have to think inside the box sometimes you get much more creative. The box was titled OZ so in trying to come up with a piece that fit that title I found an oil can at the flea mkt and it all hit me. Another time I was simply exploring inside out platters and brought several of them to the AAW symposium, partly because they were different and might get noticed but mostly because that was simply what I was working on at that time. I think working on pieces for the AAW symposium really helps you expand your horizons. Have I gotten famous or rich. Well I've never sold a piece at the symposium and doubt that I'm famous. I am getting well known but that's probably because I have a big mouth. 🙂

 

[Odie]

All along in this thread, I've been stating how my journey in woodturning has shaped up as a self-learning experience. This is not to be taken as advice for anyone else, unless they make a purposeful decision to follow the path of self-explore within the mind, as well as your hands, tools, and lathe. To be honest (once again) this path I've taken wasn't a planned event at all......I really did want to take some classes early on. It was nothing more than personal circumstances for the reasons why I didn't have any personal instruction back then. Now that I've got some time logged in the shop, and I'm feeling some sense of satisfaction.......I wouldn't trade my learning experience for a chance to go back in time and take those classes. In order to understand my feelings about this, one would have to see my journey with some hind sight, like I do. Since that's impossible for anyone else but me to do, some of you will just have to take my word for it that I feel my evolution as a turner could not have been better.....and, if I had taken those classes, I can only wonder how different my evolution would have been. I have no doubts that, indeed, things would have been different, if I had....and, that is entirely left to speculation.

One measurement of success I use for determining the value of my woodturning evolution, is the time I do sanding these days. I haven't used the Airstream in months, maybe not a single time this year! The reason for that is simple......even though my "style" involves many separate surfaces on my bowls, I'm probably doing 1/10th the time sanding as I did twenty years ago. I do use a Resp-o-rator, and from time to time, I consider selling the Airstream helmet......(That's crazy, and won't sell it......but, I do think of it sometimes!🙂) This all boils down to a few things......tool selection, tool sharpening, and tool control. This evolving knowledge is the result of absorbing a bit of basic knowledge from some books and videos around 1990, and a whole lot of "stick time" in my shop! 😉

Classes teach turning technique, and other than some design concept 101, there is very little that will teach personal style......and that, if it is to be, is completely up to the individual.....if he's got the drive to do the physical time in his shop, and does the think time in his mind. Individuality, and individual "style", can only be the product of self motivation, AND hands-on time in his shop.....along with some realistic self-evaluation, and just you in your shop with NO distractions.

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

how to make your turning the most looked at on a table in the instant gallery of a symposium?????????......

Charlie, it seems that the consensus is that the IG isn't a beauty pageant although some of the works displayed there do turn a few heads. I go to SWAT most years and about half the time I take along something for the IG. I don't do it for any competitive reason, but I feel like it is a good idea for turners to share what they do. I have asked a lot of questions when viewing other turners work. On a few occasions some folks have given me some nice compliments. It is gratifying to receive compliments and tell others how I did whatever I did and why because I feel that sharing anything that I might have discovered or learned somewhere ought not be left for somebody to reinvent. The first time that I took a turning to SWAT, it had NEWBIE written all over it. I was apprehensive about taking something, but I discovered that it doesn't matter if it isn't the best of show. Other turners are very encouraging and supportive of each other and that is the part that mattered to me.

Since you started the thread, I would like to hear about your experiences of taking things for the IG at any symposiums that you have attended.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Bill, since you asked and any who are following thread

my first symposium was outside Roanoke va....around fall 2006.....did not bring anything for instant gallery, but brought a shallow cherry dish for the auction.......I think it went for $10,,,,,,they started the bidding at $1.....it was the silent type where you wrote your bid on paper.....I did not know anybody but saw some interesting things....I still use Zig pens---a tip from Bart Castleberry....!st rotation was Barbara Dill with the multi-axis spindle....also saw Tom Crabb

went to nc 2007 symposium had a about 10 inch hollow form with sort of add on mouth was hollowing on delta, game but learning saw Nick Cook demo elbo tool

my first national symposium was Richmond 2008.....I was demo assistant for Ted Sololowski, Mark Gardner, Mathew Birchfield.....bought the 1642
I liked Bill Tilson's work and did a piece called Trepanation....from the rover series...3 legged box elder bleached saw Cindy and David their brain thing and Nick Agar with his multi-axis stuff

Dad passed over 2009

florida symposium jan 2010 saw Al's ball in a ball Michael Mocho Dale Nish Alan Leland
took an oak piece high shoulder hollow form Bay of Fundy also box elder burr hollow form Rouge

what year was St Paul national symposium did another rover 3 legged Norfolk lsland pine piece and two small base hollow forms

Tennessee jan 2011 had another rover 3 legged maple piece also a mesquite piece with barrey twisted final Wizbang

nc symposium 2011 took a rover maple bleached piece and 2 multi-axis wall hangings they were not well received

nc symposium 2013 just went Saturday, did not show

went to tampa was that 2012 took some boxes and multi axis wallhanging From the Outer Reaches did demo assistant with Nick Agar, you know he really can't talk hillbilly but he tries, I will have to give it to him he tries

went to Utah symposium in 2012 and 2013 took some boxes to first, none the second time idea for cairn box series and calabash series from trips out west

next up for me is Virginia symposium in September 13 and 14 at fisherville va
I will take some calabash Zia's not sure which ones yet, still have a month or more so who knows but it will be the calabash Zia's

I am sure I left some stuff out.....I like symposium.....love to see what other people turn love the instant galleries