Hollowing tool question and a nod to Odie

[Mark Hepburn]

Hi All,

Okay, so in one of the first threads for me since joining lo these many days ago Odie advised me against carbide hollowing tools. And I have to say that, for me, I've learned that I really can't use it. I have trigger finger in both thumbs (trigger thumb?) and arthritis to boot, , and just don't have the hand strength right now to use a swan neck tool. I can't keep it from rotating downward and get lots of chatter and catches.

We'll i found this out only yesterday. I had bought a Simple Tools hollower a while back and finally got around to turning a handle for it. A nice piece of lignum vitae. So I'm wondering if anyone else has the same issues with the tool rotating, how do,you deal with it? Do these tools inherently produce more chatter or is it due to my lack of experience or simply the geometry of the handle?

I'd appreciate some thoughts on this because I'm thinking maybe I should just post it in want ads. Thanks for any advice.

 

[hockenbery]

Hollowing is best learned in a class.
There are a couple of basics.

Well designed Curved tools have the cutter in line with the straight part of the tool shaft.
When the straight part of the shaft is on the tool rest the tool does not know it is bent and acts more like a straight tool.
Even if you use a trapped handle the tool will work better with the straight part on the tool rest.

Thus means working well off the tool rest. Also when turning inside with scrapers try to keep the tool level to the floor.
Set the tool rest so you are cutting above center a tiny bit.

Go to some demos get some one on one coaching take a class.
Have fun

Al

 

[john lucas]

I hollowed by hand for years. Everything Al said is correct. It's not the carbide that is the problem of course but the tool presentation. Since most hollowing tools are scrapers carbide shouldn't make a difference although I prefer a smaller cutter simply because they don't cut with as large of an area so the twisting force is less. I prefer to use the captured bar systems for hollowing. It just takes all the white knuckle out of hollowing. You should still use the curved tools with the tool rest on the straight part of the shank. I made my hollowing system but it is exactly like the John Jordan hollowing tools installed in a Lyle Jamieson captured bar system.

 

[hockenbery]

I use the Jamieson handle, Trent Bosh hollowing bars ( straight, hook, extreme hook) with the HSS cutter.
Also have scraper blades on the Stewart bars. These are all 3/4" bars

And I have CA savoy hollowing bar ( not available to general public) It is a 1.5" bar with 1/2" diameter tool holder tips.
Bent and straight tip with 3/16 cutters and bent and straight that hold scraper bits.

I strongly encourage the use of a trapped system. It is so easy to control and no posture problems.

It is hard to beat the Jamison bar. Relatively inexpensive. You can also make them if you weld.

There are lots of articulated bar systems.
They work nicely. Cost a bundle. And in the end do just what the Jamieson does and no more.

A few cause you to reach further over the lathe bed more than you would with the Jamieson.
Have fun
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

As Al and John said it probably isn't the tool (never heard of that brand) or whether the cutter is carbide or HSS. If it is twisting, it means that either you have the curved part of the shank on the rest or the tool design is not right. The cutter needs to be on center or just a hair above and the straight part of the shank must be on the tool rest -- never ever have the curved part on the tool rest. Take very light cuts. With free hand hollowing you can't go very far over the rest. The distance depends on the diameter. A swan neck tool should only be used for the upper part of a HF that can't be reached with a straight tool.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Hollowing is best learned in a class.
There are a couple of basics.

Well designed Curved tools have the cutter in line with the straight part of the tool shaft.
When the straight part of the shaft is on the tool rest the tool does not know it is bent and acts more like a straight tool.
Even if you use a trapped handle the tool will work better with the straight part on the tool rest.

Thus means working well off the tool rest. Also when turning inside with scrapers try to keep the tool level to the floor.
Set the tool rest so you are cutting above center a tiny bit.

Go to some demos get some one on one coaching take a class.
Have fun

Al

Thanks Al. I'm taking a class with David Ellsworth at the end of May and plan to take some others. I try to keep the tool level but it's simply that my thumbs lack the strength to keep the cutter from rotating downward.

But I'm getting more shots in the thumbs tomorrow and possibly an outpatient procedure so hopefully rehabbing will get me back on track.

 

[Bill Boehme]

The class is the best thing that you can do and since David Ellsworth is a master, he will be able to get you going in the right direction.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I hollowed by hand for years. Everything Al said is correct. It's not the carbide that is the problem of course but the tool presentation. Since most hollowing tools are scrapers carbide shouldn't make a difference although I prefer a smaller cutter simply because they don't cut with as large of an area so the twisting force is less. I prefer to use the captured bar systems for hollowing. It just takes all the white knuckle out of hollowing. You should still use the curved tools with the tool rest on the straight part of the shank. I made my hollowing system but it is exactly like the John Jordan hollowing tools installed in a Lyle Jamieson captured bar system.

John, thanks for your thoughts. The attached photo shows the tool. It's like the easy wood tools but I bought it a while back when I knew even less than I do now ( if that's possible).



It is exactly the twisting that I have problems with and it's for sure a white knuckle operation. I keep the straight part on the rest and parallel to the floor. I have the ellsworth bowl gouge and find that it so much easier to use, but the length is a limiting factor.

I've thought about a hollowing system like you recommend and know its inevitable that I'll get one and hopefully this year. But I have a lot of research to do before committing. I am going to look into the Jordan tools and Jamieson gear you mentioned.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I use the Jamieson handle, Trent Bosh hollowing bars ( straight, hook, extreme hook) with the HSS cutter.
Also have scraper blades on the Stewart bars. These are all 3/4" bars

And I have CA savoy hollowing bar ( not available to general public) It is a 1.5" bar with 1/2" diameter tool holder tips.
Bent and straight tip with 3/16 cutters and bent and straight that hold scraper bits.

I strongly encourage the use of a trapped system. It is so easy to control and no posture problems.

It is hard to beat the Jamison bar. Relatively inexpensive. You can also make them if you weld.

There are lots of articulated bar systems.
They work nicely. Cost a bundle. And in the end do just what the Jamieson does and no more.

A few cause you to reach further over the lathe bed more than you would with the Jamieson.
Have fun
Al

Thanks again Al. That's two expert opinions on the Jamieson bar (you and John) I'm gonna check it out tonight

 

[Mark Hepburn]

As Al and John said it probably isn't the tool (never heard of that brand) or whether the cutter is carbide or HSS. If it is twisting, it means that either you have the curved part of the shank on the rest or the tool design is not right. The cutter needs to be on center or just a hair above and the straight part of the shank must be on the tool rest -- never ever have the curved part on the tool rest. Take very light cuts. With free hand hollowing you can't go very far over the rest. The distance depends on the diameter. A swan neck tool should only be used for the upper part of a HF that can't be reached with a straight tool.

Hi Bill. I definitely don't have the curved part on the rest. If I'm working that close in I'm using a gouge but I take your point. The brand does seem to be obscure and I sort of regret using that nice piece of lignum for the handle .

And I see now for what you're saying that I'm expecting too much of the tool as far as depth goes. And my rest is likely a bit low. John and Al suggested a captive system and I'm going to look into it.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

The class is the best thing that you can do and since David Ellsworth is a master, he will be able to get you going in the right direction.

Yes, I'm really looking forward to it. I have his tools so I'll finally learn how to sharpen them correctly.

 

[hockenbery]

I learned to hollow a little bit on my own Mostly Christmas ornament balls.

Then a week class with David Ellsworth around 1995 enabled me to leap forward both with the gouge and hollowing.

Around 1998 I was sort of a combination assistant/student in a jamieson class.

David is a fantastic teacher and great human being...

You will learn a lot and have fun doing it.

Al

 

[Hu Lowery]

simple system

Hi All,

Okay, so in one of the first threads for me since joining lo these many days ago Odie advised me against carbide hollowing tools. And I have to say that, for me, I've learned that I really can't use it. I have trigger finger in both thumbs (trigger thumb?) and arthritis to boot, , and just don't have the hand strength right now to use a swan neck tool. I can't keep it from rotating downward and get lots of chatter and catches.

We'll i found this out only yesterday. I had bought a Simple Tools hollower a while back and finally got around to turning a handle for it. A nice piece of lignum vitae. So I'm wondering if anyone else has the same issues with the tool rotating, how do,you deal with it? Do these tools inherently produce more chatter or is it due to my lack of experience or simply the geometry of the handle?

I'd appreciate some thoughts on this because I'm thinking maybe I should just post it in want ads. Thanks for any advice.

Mark,

I just noticed this thread. As it happens I just bought the simple system, arm, laser, and all from Harrison Specialties. One issue is that it uses a 12mm insert which means it wants to take a huge bite compared to a rounded 3/16" tool. I haven't used it myself enough to have much input, tried it once on some rock hard wood with mixed results. I'm using the long straight tool with it, plan to get the swan neck later. However I haven't decided if I want to stay with the Simple tools or go to the Jordan tools or another supplier.

I do notice that you are in Houma Louisiana. At a guess you are about two to two and a half hours from me in Roseland, up I-55 about ten miles south of the Mississippi line. If you want to come up and play with this complete Simple set up send me a PM and we'll swap phone information to set up a visit pretty much whenever is good for you. I just cut some green wood so we can test in something besides rock or bring anything you want to play with. My lathe is fairly light, I can handle a twelve inch diameter piece or so although it is a fifteen inch lathe. New to turning myself so I won't be much help with advice but you can play with the system as long as you like. It is a cheap system, compact compared to a captive bar, and does seem to take the strain out of hollowing.

Hu

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark,

I just noticed this thread. As it happens I just bought the simple system, arm, laser, and all from Harrison Specialties. One issue is that it uses a 12mm insert which means it wants to take a huge bite compared to a rounded 3/16" tool. I haven't used it myself enough to have much input, tried it once on some rock hard wood with mixed results. I'm using the long straight tool with it, plan to get the swan neck later. However I haven't decided if I want to stay with the Simple tools or go to the Jordan tools or another supplier.

I do notice that you are in Houma Louisiana. At a guess you are about two to two and a half hours from me in Roseland, up I-55 about ten miles south of the Mississippi line. If you want to come up and play with this complete Simple set up send me a PM and we'll swap phone information to set up a visit pretty much whenever is good for you. I just cut some green wood so we can test in something besides rock or bring anything you want to play with. My lathe is fairly light, I can handle a twelve inch diameter piece or so although it is a fifteen inch lathe. New to turning myself so I won't be much help with advice but you can play with the system as long as you like. It is a cheap system, compact compared to a captive bar, and does seem to take the strain out of hollowing.

Hu

Hu,

You're right about the cutter size. It'll hog off a bunch - or in my case catch like crazy. Sent you a PM a minute ago. Thanks!

 

[Steve Worcester]

I have taken many classes from the best in handheld hollowing, David Ellseworth, John Jordan and Trent Bosch, but I too lack the forearm strength to be real successful .
I use a modified Lyle Jamison captive rig or Trent's new hollowing rig.
Carbide isn't the problem although the tool you show is a scraper and not a cutter with a gullet, like a Hunter. The real difference isn't the presentation, but the finish in this case.

 

[Sean Boyle]

Mark have you ever considered what you are trying to hollow Lignum Vita is the most dense wood on earth. I have not hollowed a lot but have turned LV an it turns like steel. Have youthought os something softer

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark have you ever considered what you are trying to hollow Lignum Vita is the most dense wood on earth. I have not hollowed a lot but have turned LV an it turns like steel. Have youthought os something softer

Hey Sean, I misspoke. I turned a handle for the tool out of lignum. And since I can't use the tool worth a $%#@ I basically wasted a good handle blank on the tool

But Hu lowery lives up the road and I'm going up in a week or so. He bought the Simple hollowing stuff from Harrison Specialties and I'm going to give him the tool. So things worked out okay.

Oh, and the hollowing project? I ended up making a bowl steady to finish it and used my bowl gouge and a big Owens scraper. Primitive but got er done, and it only flew off the lathe once.

And boy are you right, that stuff is dense. But it makes a really nice handle. Bought a couple more from Big Monk woods. First time buyer from him and based on a mention by John Lucas. Pete Kekel is the owner and a really good guy to deal with. You can call him and he will take as much time with you as you need. And he knows an awful lot about wood for sure.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I have taken many classes from the best in handheld hollowing, David Ellseworth, John Jordan and Trent Bosch, but I too lack the forearm strength to be real successful .
I use a modified Lyle Jamison captive rig or Trent's new hollowing rig.
Carbide isn't the problem although the tool you show is a scraper and not a cutter with a gullet, like a Hunter. The real difference isn't the presentation, but the finish in this case.

Steve, I'm taking a class with David Ellsworth at the end of this month and bought his hollowing tools since I already have and use his gouge (that is a fine tool to be sure). And he told me that he will work with me in specific areas so who better to teach with his tools, right?

And I take your point that this really is more a scraper. With a huge cutter in fact, which really added to the chatter it seemed. I. Not familiar with Trent's jig; if you could point me to a link? I did look at the Jamieson system and also a SureSteady setup so I'm still sorting out what direction.

One things for sure though. And with advancing arthritis -even mild as it is now- I need a system. John Lucas called it white knuckle hollowing and boy is he right.

Thanks!

Mark

 

[Larry Mercier]

I researched hollowing systems and eventually narrowed them down to two systems: Lyle Jamison's and Trent Bosch's. One of the determining factors was storage. I chose Trent's system. I've been using it for approx. one year, I have made several hollowforms and am very happy with my choice. I find Trent to be very knowledgeable helpful whenever a problem arises.
Have fun. Stay safe.
Larry

 

[robo hippy]

Mark, like Steve said, the tool you have is a scraper. Most of the hollowing tools are scrapers, and most of them have considerably smaller cutting surfaces than the one you show, like 1/4 inch or less. I don't have any of the Hunter tools, but if I did, I would use the cupped ones for hollowing. There are a number of ring tools, and I got one with the 'chip limiter' which always seemed to clog up instantly or wouldn't cut at all. Emiliano has another set up that is kind of like a hook type tool and not a ring tool, and it looked pretty efficient. It didn't clog up like some of the standard ring tools. Hope he comments here.

robo hippy

 

[odie]

Odie advised me against carbide hollowing tools.

I do reserve the right to change my mind about anything I ever said on these forums.....but, after 8 years, my opinion about carbide tools used for bowl turning hasn't changed.....because of the same disadvantages they share with the exotic steels.

Although there are a couple Hunter carbide tools in the stable, I haven't touched them in a decade.....and in turn, the exotic steels I have are being used up and phased out......M2 steel is the way to go, IMNSHO.....

I don't know about hollowing.....carbide might be a good option there.

-----odie-----

 

[Lyle Jamieson]

I do reserve the right to change my mind about anything I ever said on these forums.....but, after 8 years, my opinion about carbide tools used for bowl turning hasn't changed.....because of the same disadvantages they share with the exotic steels.

Although there are a couple Hunter carbide tools in the stable, I haven't touched them in a decade.....and in turn, the exotic steels I have are being used up and phased out......M2 steel is the way to go, IMNSHO.....

I don't know about hollowing.....carbide might be a good option there.

-----odie-----

I have a fact sheet that outlines the things to look at when comparing hollowing systems. If you want a copy send me an email.

 

[odie]

I have a fact sheet that outlines the things to look at when comparing hollowing systems. If you want a copy send me an email.

Hi Lyle.....

Thanks, but I'm really not much interested in a hollowing system.....but, this is noted for anyone else who wants your information. I'm well aware of your contributions to woodturning, so this information will be a great help to those who want to do hollowing.

-----odie-----

 

[Bill Blasic]

I have zero HS steel gouges. Why use HS steel when 10V steel is available. Like why use a treadle lathe when electrical powered lathes are available. Choices I guess. I have 3 hollowing systems and I have always used either John Jordan tools or Kelton Hollowers but since Hunter carbides became available for use in hollowing I use them most because they cut not scrape, again choices. I guess I just prefer to make things the more modern choices.

 

[Timothy White]

@Bill Blasic: M2 M4 M42 PM42 CPM10 V are all high speed steel. High carbon steel will loose its temper at a much lower temperature than “HSS”. I’ve been by a machinist that High speed steel got its name from its ability to cut steel fast enough to produce a white hot chip and not loose its temper. It was never designed for woodturning. All my life I have heard “ it isn’t possible to get HSS as sharp as High Carbon steel“. The problem wasn’t with the steel it was with the sharpening media. Friable stones will sharpen M2 fairly well and they were used exclusively in machine shops to sharpen M2. the main problem with using these stones in industry was the constant need to dress the stones and the changing diameter.
the more exotic high speed steels developed to cut more exotic metals needed something more substantial to sharpen them.
Enter Jerry Glasier Doug Thompson Carter and Sons and others. CBN wheels are what make the more exotic steels an option for woodturning. Make no mistake about it none of the above listed steels were developed for woodturning.
Tom Wiesrig (sp) wrote an article on sharpening for the woodturning magazine a couple of years back dealing with this very subject.
I had Doug Thompson steel before I had CBN but I never got it sharp until I bought a grinder CBN wheels and a Vector Grind from Hannes Mikelsen (sp) at SWAT. After the Tom Wiesring article I started using 600 grit and really got it sharp.
OBTW. M2 steel will be much sharper using CBN

 

[odie]

@Bill Blasic:
Tom Wiesrig (sp) wrote an article on sharpening for the woodturning magazine a couple of years back dealing with this very subject.
I had Doug Thompson steel before I had CBN but I never got it sharp until I bought a grinder CBN wheels and a Vector Grind from Hannes Mikelsen (sp) at SWAT. After the Tom Wiesring article I started using 600 grit and really got it sharp.
OBTW. M2 steel will be much sharper using CBN

All of this is based on the sharpness acquired directly from a grinder wheel.

When honing by hand is done afterwards, the level of sharpness possible is increased. The main reason for this, is from the wheel, the edge is created in a single direction, and hand honing is done from multiple directions.

-----odie-----

 

[Bill Blasic]

I had no trouble at all for the years before I got CBN wheels using the white stones that came out of the box with the grinder to sharpen Thompson 10V steel. I see no difference in sharpness the only difference for me is I use a lot less steel sharpening with CBN wheels. Also there is a huge difference between HS steel and CPM steels especially 10V steel. The additives like 10% Vanadium and special strict heat treating to line up the particles makes for optimum steel use that is why the designation is CPM not HS.

 

[odie]

All of this is based on the sharpness acquired directly from a grinder wheel.

When honing by hand is done afterwards, the level of sharpness possible is increased. The main reason for this, is from the wheel, the edge is created in a single direction, and hand honing is done from multiple directions.

-----odie-----

One thing I failed to mention here, is hand honing is done on both sides of the edge, as well as from multiple directions. The edge created directly from a grinding wheel is created in a single direction, and on a single side of the edge.

The advantages of hand honing can be demonstrated by individual experiment....that is, if one is not pre-disposed to a particular outcome.

-----odie-----

 

[William Rogers]

All of my bowl gouges, parting tool and detail gouges are either V10 or M42 steel. I still have a few spindle gouges and other parting tools that are M2 and one M42 Spindle gouge. The exotics hold the edge much better. And NO, I don’t use them longer because they are exotic steels. A dull tool is a dull tool regardless of the steel and I can feel it. I also use CBN wheels. My opinion is the edge from a CBN wheel is a little better than from a friable wheel. Definitely a lot less material is removed. Just doesn’t make economic sense to buy M2 steel any more when better steels are available. You don’t get any better cuts from M2 steel. Just more trips to the grinder and need to replace more often.

Hollowing I prefer the John Jordan or Trent Bosch tools with the M2 scrapers for bulk material removal. I’ll use a carbide or M2 round scraper to clean up with. I have the Hunter style carbide, but rarely use it. Just haven’t developed a good technique with that tool.

 

[robo hippy]

Hmm, the sharpness debate again. The standard 'friable' wheels came in grits up to 150, though there were some 220 grit wheels if you were able to find them. The fine grits of the CBN wheels does allow for a finer edge that was only possible to get by honing and/or stropping. The Big Ugly tool that I am so fond of was sharpened on 80 grit stones, but can be honed to a very fine edge.

robo hippy

 

[Timothy White]

@Bill Blasic: HSS is a generic name used for steel that cuts steel. Crucible Particle Metal (CPM) and Powdered Metal (PM) are a process not a type of steel. HSS can be made with the PM or CPM process. Cryo (cryogenic) is a process used to temper HSS it is not another kind of steel.
@ robo hippy: you are correct about honing my only question is what medium do you use to hone with?

 

[John Tisdale]

Mark,
Take a look at the attached - I think the Planet Mesquite stuff ends at about 14-minutes and the hollowing commence.
If you have any questions just send a conversation-request with your phone number.
Also, I'm on the north east side of Dallas, just a hop/skip/jump from Houma - glad to have you come by the shop.
John

View: https://youtu.be/dUQF8zXDVnk

 

[odie]

The fine grits of the CBN wheels does allow for a finer edge that was only possible to get by honing and/or stropping

Actually.....No, this is not the case Robo.

The honing process used to create an extremely sharp cutting edge, is not dependent on the kind of grinding wheel used to create the bevel. After hand honing, there is a very thin, but visible strip of new surface that separates cutting edge itself, from the bevel surface. This strip is entirely created by the honing process......in my case, it's a diamond hone. With hand honing, the entire edge is the result of the honing process, and makes no difference what method was used to create the bevel.

-----odie-----

 

[Bill Blasic]

@Bill Blasic: HSS is a generic name used for steel that cuts steel. Crucible Particle Metal (CPM) and Powdered Metal (PM) are a process not a type of steel. HSS can be made with the PM or CPM process. Cryo (cryogenic) is a process used to temper HSS it is not another kind of steel.
@ robo hippy: you are correct about honing my only question is what medium do you use to hone with?

Where did I say that that they were not steel. If you can read it says designation. And there is a huge difference in how the HSS and PM metals are made making significant differences in the resulting steel.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill, PM steels are high-speed steels. Powdered metal is just a manufacturing process, not a classification. Crucible calls their process for PM A11 high-speed steel CPM 10V.

High-speed steels are a subset of tool steels. Tool steels include the high-carbon steel used in the old woodturning tools.

Here is a link to Griggs Steel about AISI A11: https://www.griggssteel.com/high-speed-steel/pm-a11-steel/

 

[Timothy White]

Where did I say that that they were not steel. If you can read it says designation. And there is a huge difference in how the HSS and PM metals are made making significant differences in the resulting steel.

I simply pointed out that CPM10V is HSS and so is M4 M42. and a host of others.

 

[robo hippy]

Odie, maybe I should have said that the finer grits on the CBN wheels allow a finer edge right off the wheel than the friable grinding wheels do. Shapton now makes a 30000 grit hone/polishing stone. I think there is also a stropping compound that is 30000 grit. Some swear by it for hand tools. The technology has advanced in hones/polishing/stropping so much over the last few years.... If you are one of those who are blessed or cursed, with that insatiable need to 'experiment', then don't go to https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/ More things than I knew existed for sharpening....

robo hippy

 

[John Tisdale]

Mark,
In my "now corrected" Youtube link, the technique I've used for almost 20-years only applies to larger hollow-forms with openings you can get your hand into. For hollow-forms with smaller openings, the utility of the "internal rest with pivot pin" becomes less viable. A few years ago I turned a 10" diameter hollow form and found the hook-tool "challenging" - you must pay attention to what you're doing - the hand/wrist strength required is not for the girly-man. Of course that may be my "lack of skill" talking.
But contrary to what you might think, hollowing a large piece with a large enough opening for your hand, never really challenges. Of course that assumes a shielded-cutter tool like the Rolly Munro, an internal tool rest with a pivot pin (with lights), and a lathe height where you're spared from bending over and "becoming an old man".

 

[odie]

Odie, maybe I should have said that the finer grits on the CBN wheels allow a finer edge right off the wheel than the friable grinding wheels do.

Hi Robo..... OK, I get your meaning now. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I believe you're correct that the finer grit the wheel is, the sharper the edge will be straight from the wheel. One thing about it.....When the final edge is produced straight from the wheel, it's done in a single direction. It is my assertion that a honed edge, one that is produced with multiple directions, will be sharper than an edge that is produced from the same grit, but in a single direction.

If the bur that is created on the top of the edge from an 1800rpm (typically a slow speed grinder) wheel is not removed, that is a further consideration. If I were going directly from the grinder to the lathe, I'd at least do a quick cleanup of the top edge with a hone.

Those who produce an edge from a Tormek, or similar very slow speed machine, will likely have an equivalent edge comparable to honing by hand......that's also an assertion, given without evidence. The Tormek process always seemed very slow to me. When hand honing only a 64th of an inch, or so of the final edge....it's actually very quick.

Thanks for the link, and I'm glad to be having this discussion......

-----odie-----

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Be sure to look @ elbo tool, the early model did up to 6 or so inches well and for display around normal house that's about it.....