Hollowing moratorium proposed

[ssinner]

Here's an interesting point of view posted on the Wood Turning Center's site.

www.woodturningcenter.org/TurningPoints/002/TP002_Exton.pdf

What do you think?

Steve Sinner

 

[George Guadiane]

Interesting

Here's an interesting point of view posted on the Wood Turning Center's site.

www.woodturningcenter.org/TurningPoints/002/TP002_Exton.pdf

What do you think?

Steve Sinner

Not sure how many of us could go for a year without making some kind of hollow form (I know it would be tough for me)... BUT, his point is well made, and reminds me of a recent thread about footed bowls and what constitutes "turning."
Reading the article DID make me think about other approaches to the lathe, off axis turning and the like. We probably COULD do a lot more ON the lathe if we thought about it a bit more, longer.
You got ME thinking.
Thank You,
George

 

[Steve Worcester]

Truly an interesting though as it make a statement towards "pure" woodturning", but as the vessel is a point at which most come into their own style, or at least have an easier method to find and define their own with thier tools, it is what most will make for years to come. Mostly because few can spend the time at the lathe to experiment and go through the learning and yearning process to look at their failures as a path to their goals. I have had many discussions with woodturners, such as Clay Foster, who will go through many iterations in an effort to achieve the one success. Like any of our early vessel efforts where you blow though the side and look at it as frustrating instead of enlightenment and a part of the curve towards your own successes.

After 10 years of vessels, I rarely blow though any now, but I have also learned that I don't have to have a two foot tall form that has 1 mm thick walls. But I do want the form to be visually light.

So in 10-20 years, when we have all been working on the next "vessel" will we look back at this as an awakening?

 

[Martin Braun]

I disagree with the basic premise of the article "Many thousands of hours have been dedicated to working the vessel; a bare fraction of that time has been spent exploring other uses of the lathe. On that basis alone we should assume that we really don’t know much about the lathe." From my perspective, there are a lot of folks investigating forms other than the 'vessel'. I see the work going on with multi-center, multi-axis turning, boxes, chinese spheres, coring, etc. and I can't imagine this assertion is supported by data.

 

[Mike Vickery]

Definately an interesting read and something to think about. I will say this though. I am not an artist I am a guy who turns wood as a hobby to have fun an relax. I have no interest in shaping the future of wood turning but just want to have fun in the shop.

If you are not depending on the lathe to feed your family, have fun and do what interests you at the time.

 

[GeorgeH]

I found the article to be thought provoking but it leaned heavily on the artistic application of wood turning at the expense of the hobby aspect. Martin Braun and Mike Vickery summed it up pretty well for me. Especially the comment " I am not an artist, I am a guy who turns wood as a hobby to have fun an relax. I have no interest in shaping the future of wood turning but just want to have fun in the shop. If you are not depending on the lathe to feed your family, have fun and do what interests you at the time." There are at least two sides to every point of view. Wood turning as an art form and wood turning as a hobby are not comparable, they are contrasting.

 

[George Guadiane]

I'm A Little Bit Country AND Rock & Roll

I found the article to be thought provoking but it leaned heavily on the artistic application of wood turning at the expense of the hobby aspect. Martin Braun and Mike Vickery summed it up pretty well for me. Especially the comment " I am not an artist, I am a guy who turns wood as a hobby to have fun an relax. I have no interest in shaping the future of wood turning but just want to have fun in the shop. If you are not depending on the lathe to feed your family, have fun and do what interests you at the time." There are at least two sides to every point of view. Wood turning as an art form and wood turning as a hobby are not comparable, they are contrasting.

I think you pretty much nailed it:
The article seemed to focus almost exclusively on the pro turning community. Most of us are not a part of that.
Those of us who would LIKE TO become a part, but who want to keep the fun and relaxation aspect ARE out there trying new things. I don't think that just because you view it as less than professional you should necessarily dismiss the possibility that you might come up with a really great (odd?) idea that catches on. I'm trying to do that with a couple of things, in order to set my work apart. It's a part of that "change one thing" theory I use.
Steve has some great insight too...
I want to have fun, blow through some stuff and learn from that, try some stuff that I haven't seen and make changes in some of the things I see, to try and make that next "vessel."
Why not me, or you?

 

[ssinner]

Here are my thoughts on the subject:

I've given quite a bit of thought to this question of the validity of the vessel as an art form, and I'm forced to conclude that it is a classic form, present among the earliest known art works, and will be present for as long as humans are able to make art.

All you have to do is walk into any decent art museum anywhere in the world. I'll bet you'll see the reason for my conclusion. What those of us who are working the vessel today are doing is chronicling our time on this little sphere called earth. Our work (at least some of our works, who knows who's it will be) will be kept as examples for as long as it as possible to keep them. There is something about the vessel form that resonates with people in a way that pointless random forms never will.

I believe the vessel is the form that is moving our genre of art into the realms of high art. While we begin the process of including content in our work, others concentrate on meaningless whimsy, just to be different. In the final analysis, the artist that has something to say will prevail for the long haul.

I might also point out that the majority of wood that has found its way into the most respected art museums to date has been the vessel form. This reflects the 2D works that are the mainstay of the museums. Most of them are figurative or subjective. There will always be room for the works of such as Stoney, Robyn, Christian and others; but the vessel will never be displaced.

For those of you who seek to join the art carnival, I suggest you concentrate in putting yourself into your work, whether it is a vessel or not. Each of us is an individual, and each is capable of distinctly different work!!!

 

[Paul Engle]

Or maybe we dont know were to go from here. Maybe it should never have been " art " maybe the wrong people put the wrong name on it. Or maybe like other forms it should still be the artist trying to get you to see what he or she sees?At any rate if it is slanted toward PRO's , did not they start some where ? or were they just lucky enuf to be the first and last of a generation of vessel turners as they went to the end and now there is nowhere to go as a genere' ? Huh. Well for amatures like most of us, making vessels will for a long time to come enthrall us untill we've turned every concievable wood and shape, and you know what ? Our wifes and girl friends and daughters and mothers will love every piece we do. and thats ART to me, and maybe not turning a vessel for a year will incite us to new directions dunno , dont think so , like a painter should not paint mountains for a year or not use oil or only use water based paint or just parchment or birch bark etc , and all he ever painted was apples and oranges on fruit crates which sold for 20m$ a week after he died. huh. or still life or or or. the audacity of the author of the article to presume somthing not in evidence, or is it? Is the vessel done ? yep think so, but we're not done , Murphy's law applies everwhere and in all places, IF I CAN HAPPEN , IT WILL. I rather think the world of turning will find that maybe pure art does not exsist or at least has more than one ingredient in it.For me tho , i like to think of what I can do on the lathe not what i can do after it leaves the lathe, and my forays in to texturing were done on the lathe as was dyeing my first piece as are most of my finishes are started there , so where does that leave me? Pure? huh dont think so but art ? not sure but think so , or rather let some glass artist work with out color

 

[SUBDOC]

I would to hate to think that the vessel is done and over with. I haven't even started. I have turned a lot of spindle stuff and some pots or bowls for turkey calls. I have been doing a lot reading here about how to do this sort of thing.

 

[waltben]

Well then . ..

I really think what he's done is to provoke discussion and thought. As someone else wrote earlier, classic forms will never go away. I'd suggest he just find a way to deal with it if this is a serious treatise. What I believe was intended was to get folks thinking about other forms than ones to thump with a finger to see how thick the walls are.

 

[john lucas]

As someone who seldom turns a hollow vessel I found it very interesting. I love to explore other avenues. I really apreciate a good hollow vessel and agree with him that we use it as a canvass. I don't see any problems with that. I had gotten bored with the work of John Jordan and David Ellsworth until I actually held one of thier vessels. Print doesn't do justice to this work. The subtle color, texture and forms, and weight of these pieces are fascinating. The same is true of James Pristini. I finally got to see some of his work in the last 4 or 5 years and it's really superb.
Personally I will continue to turn other things, especially inside out turning but will probably turn more hollow vessels than I have in the past, simply because they fit the ideas I have to express myself.
Will I ever make it as an artist, or set new standards of what we call art in woodturning. Who knows. As long as I'm having fun that's all that counts.

 

[Brian Hahn]

Did he have and axe to grind...

I just read the article, then did a quick check of the del Mano Gallery's recent exhibits. His article definitely seems a little skewed.

The article seems like the opening argument from one side in a debate -- heavily weighted towards his point of view and totally ignoring the history of craft and art, especially the areas outside of the world of woodturning.

I found it about as interesting a cellulose sponge and just as full of holes.

 

[George Guadiane]

Never!

I would to hate to think that the vessel is done and over with. I haven't even started. I have turned a lot of spindle stuff and some pots or bowls for turkey calls. I have been doing a lot reading here about how to do this sort of thing.

I really don't think we will ever see the end of the vessel, as has been pointed out, it draws from classic designs of all time and countries of origin. My impression was that he wanted us to get back to the lathe, take that tool to the next level. I am trying to figure out how to do that and include the vessel in some form. Like someone else mentioned, off axis, multi axis, there are lots of variations without using saws and paint....
That is what I thought the message was.
Like using a skew (which I might NEVER learn), the vessel is just another stepping stone in the path. Some of us are happy to dance around on it (like me).

 

[GA Darling]

I found this article to be quite interesting. While Mr. Exton makes several valid points in his article, I want to know what he is doing besides writing articles? How is he trying to innovate woodturning?
In answer to one of the questions he posed, why are vessels so dominate in woodturning, they are a natural. Think about it. You have a chunk of wood spinning on a machine that has been created to make things round. The turner naturally tends to create a form and hollow it out. Next, the beauty of the vessel itself. Anyone who has ever turned or seen a vessel be it hollow form or segmented gets addicted to the beauty of the wood in this form. As Mr. Exton said it’s an easy simple way to create a piece of art work.
The next thing that comes to mind is that the majority of turners out there are at the beginner to intermediate level. I think you would find that the percentage of advanced to professional turners is about 1% or less. This means most turners are busy trying to learn skills and technique. They are not worried about innovating woodturning. They are just trying to learn how to do it. The majority of turners get into it as a hobby and get hooked. Very few have any training in design or art and just sort of wing it. For most it’s about having fun creating something artistic or relieving stress.
While any one of us could skew from the norm and create a new way to turn, that’s not likely to happen until we feel comfortable with our skill and technique. Most new turners learn by emulating what has already been done. Also, look at what information is available on turning. The most of it is about turning vessels. Is it any wonder vessels are dominate in woodturning? I think if innovations are going to come to woodturning they will come from the professional level. They will come from the guy that has nothing else to do except live and breath woodturning and is tired of turning vessles.

 

[Frank Kobilsek]

I read the article several times the other night. I have had the opportunity to do some small group shows with artists of other mediums and other motivations. A person or two in that group I would say I really can't enjoy thier company. They make thier product for the money and present it as something it is not. The others in my weerd little group study have something that I hope to achieve, a look to thier work that is uniquely thiers. These people are certainly interested in making a buck and take liberties in thier promotion but they got the gift. Several turners have that gift which are mentioned in that story but a couple of my current favorites do to; Molly Winton's branding, you know that is her's when you see it. Something as simple as a bowl by Mike Mahoney, you see certian bowls and have to ask if its Mike's work, there is something in his profiles that is uniquely his. I even think our webmaster here Ed Yo-Yo Spin has this gift on his stopper shapes. If something as simple as a stopper shape can be identified to a specific turner then anything can be innovated.

So by my take there are the artists with the gift and then there are many outstanding woodturners some just enjoying a great hobby, some great craftspersons and some trying to achieve the gift. All Good!

Frank

 

[Jake Debski]

I too have read the article a couple of times. Correct me if I'm wrong but the author is not speaking to the majority of turners on this or any forum. He is speaking to the people that are, not even the average pro much less hobbyist. But rather to those few who are driven to explore the "art" side of the lathe. Many turners on this and other sites turn, then carve, burn paint etc. all manner of vessel. These pieces are offered for what they are, turned wood art. They are rendered by Pro and hobbyist alike. If we see something we like we attempt to emulate it. The Pros and Semi-Pros derive a substantial portion of their incomes teaching people like me to do what they are particularly good at. So until the Lathe artists create something that captures sufficient numbers of turner's imaginations we will continue to make and alter vessels and the obsessive artists slaving away in garrets around the world will continue to decry our lack of purity and creativity. I wish Peter well and hope he and his fellow searchers find what they are after. Then again he may be that "voice in the wilderness."

 

[Martin Braun]

Jake, is there some wider context for this article that I am missing? I ask, because at face value, it doesn't seem to me the article was limited in scope only to the advanced professionals. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time that "I just don't get it."

I sit back and think of folks like Escoulen and all the other folks doing multi-center and other kinds of spindle turning that are anything but a vessel; Springett helping to revive the techniques behind Chinese balls, as well as others making some really extraordinary intertwined pieces in this same line of exploration; Malcolm Tibbetts and his extrordinary segmented chess set, table, and chairs; I certainly consider the aforementioned advanced professionals in terms of their skill level & noteriety, though it could be that some may not find turning to be their sole source of income.

I've failed to think of peoples names at the moment, but certainly there are advanced professionals creating items that we all enjoy - lamps & lamp shades, thermometers, furniture legs/rails/styles/posts, Christmas ornaments, tops, peppermills, pens, clocks, jewlery. Most of which would be hard to categorize as a bowl or vessel.

Oh well, that's all I have.

Oh wait, I do have one more thing Jake - go Sabres!

 

[drjcbarton]

To me the interesting part of this discussion hasn't been addressed; why does between centers turning seem so fundamentally different than face turning and thus, hollow forms? It seems to me that most hollow turnings are intended as art pieces and aside from resembling a vessel they aren't really intended as such (save the lowly bowl). On the other hand, between center turnings are more often than not intended as tools, either as structural members of furniture or as independent tools (candle holders, pens, handles, etc...). Because of this it seems that I tend to notice the wood as the most important determinant of "beauty" in a HF and the execution, form and function as the determinant of "ingenuity/value" of an axial piece. In axial turnings there is less raw surface area to create the appearance of beauty as opposed to vessels. The beauty can still be there in an axial piece but, one tends to focus on form and function.

 

[pencheff]

If you substituted "wheel" for "lathe" how a potter would feel after reading that article? Seemed a little snooty to me.

 

[George Guadiane]

Perfect!!!

If you substituted "wheel" for "lathe" how a potter would feel after reading that article? Seemed a little snooty to me.

I don't know if snooty is the best word, but your analogy CERTAINLY points out a certain failure to appreciate the WHOLE process.
ALTHOUGH, we should consider the abilities (and limitations) that working from the outside in on something pretty much solid has vs. potting in considering your perspective.
All in all, you're right, the fact that things are done post rotation shouldn't diminish the value of the art.

 

[Brian Hahn]

If you substituted "wheel" for "lathe" how a potter would feel after reading that article? Seemed a little snooty to me.

I had the same reaction. And it's not just pottery. The whole argument could also be applied to any one of the major painting (Art) movements. Or music, or theater, or ...

He seems to be complaining about the normal ebb and flow of interest that is inevitable in human activity. And in nature.

 

[Jake Debski]

Jake, is there some wider context for this article that I am missing? I ask, because at face value, it doesn't seem to me the article was limited in scope only to the advanced professionals. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time that "I just don't get it."


Oh wait, I do have one more thing Jake - go Sabres!

Martin, you didn't miss a thing. 'twas me. I just blessedly deleted a way to long and rambling explanation of what I was trying to say by mistake. Life is good I didn't step in it with the other foot.

Thank you, the Sabres pulled one out of their hat tonight.