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Here we go again on (Food Safe)

Tom Albrecht

Tom Albrecht

Joined
Feb 8, 2014
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Location
Evanston, IL USA
I am Sorry for the same old rehash on my part. You know how you pay attention to the posts that matter to you at the time? I have finally decided that I want to start using a food safe oil finish on my kitchenware that all my Hippie, Tree hugging, Mr. Natural type of local customers will accept. I have previously always used Waterlox Original, but that requires an explanation of "modified" tung oil, FDA approval, evaporated solvents, and fourteen days of curing. Yes, it is my understanding that all dried and cured finishes are FDA approved, but I no longer want to have to use that explanation.

It has to be as few steps as possible, like one coat and one buff.

So, Mahoney's? Doctor's? Tried & True?
 
The true Tree Hugging, Mr. Natural (there could also be Ms. Naturals) should only be satisfied with something truly natural. And that would be no finish, which after a few weeks of use, would develop the finish from being used. You know, just like the finish from 1,000 years ago. :)
 
been experimenting with Osmo oils - plant based, food safe finishes, and like it a lot. Expensive, but you only use a bit of it. Nice finish with a soft luster. I had been using mineral oil/bee's wax blends and walnut oils on utility and kitchenware (I use the Doctor's brand walnut oil/wax blends). These seem to satisfy those who have asked. I'm upfront on what I use to finish, and most seem satisfied.
 
I like Tried and True polymerized linseed oil. I like the T&T product with beeswax as well. Started using it on salad bowls. Buffs nicely to a low sheen and easily renewable with whatever oil you care to use. For renewing by the home user, recommend flax seed oil from the health food store, which is the same thing, just not polymerized. Looks good with one coat. Started using it after watching a video at Finewoodworking.com by a woodworker who specializes in hand carved bowls, spoons, and such.

For the salad bowls I use at home (cherry), started with Mahoneys, and haven’t done anything to them after three years of use. They still look great, except for the dings from eating utensils. I suspect the walnut oil is long gone by now, and regular use has imparted a patina. So, those are no-finish bowls now, and I see no need to renew the finish.

Background: I am hobbyist wood turner and create only for my own use or for gifts. But I‘d go the same direction if I was sellling them, having tried all of the popular film finishes and oil concoctions.
 
Tom Albrecht said:
I am Sorry for the same old rehash on my part. You know how you pay attention to the posts that matter to you at the time? I have finally decided that I want to start using a food safe oil finish on my kitchenware that all my Hippie, Tree hugging, Mr. Natural type of local customers will accept. I have previously always used Waterlox Original, but that requires an explanation of "modified" tung oil, FDA approval, evaporated solvents, and fourteen days of curing. Yes, it is my understanding that all dried and cured finishes are FDA approved, but I no longer want to have to use that explanation.

It has to be as few steps as possible, like one coat and one buff.

So, Mahoney's? Doctor's? Tried & True?
Click to expand...
I don't know if I'm lying to some of my customers, but I tell them that if I wanted, I could use Mike's oil as a dressing in my salads. Does the trick! To some people it is very important, some don't really care what you use.
 
Tom Albrecht said:
Yes, it is my understanding that all dried and cured finishes are FDA approved, but I no longer want to have to use that explanation.

It has to be as few steps as possible, like one coat and one buff.

So, Mahoney's? Doctor's? Tried & True?
Click to expand...
Tom, small point, but I don’t believe that the FDA has actually approved all finishes. It is true that properly cursed finishes are known to be food safe, but only those companies that have submitted data to the FDA can make the claim of FDA Approved.
 
The only finishing ingredients I'm aware of that would have FDA approval are mineral oil and shellac. And then only if you are using USP grade material produced in a factory that is regularly inspected and approved by the FDA, with lot-by-lot documented quality control. There's no way you want to pay the price for those products.

A second class of materials is the GRAS list (Generally Recognized as Safe). The link provides access to the food, food ingredient, and food packaging lists. This will extend the list of finishing ingredients to include most oils used as food. It's important to note that just because something is GRAS that is not proof of safety. Indeed some of the items on the GRAS list (nitrites, eg) are known not to be safe, but are in such widespread use (and have been for thousands of years) that eliminating them from foods is deemed undoable. Often they (again, like nitrites) are natural substances present in many foods.

Finally, it is impossible to prove "safety". You can only say that under certain conditions at certain doses it doesn't appear to cause harm to most people. Proving "unsafety" is trivial in comparison. 99.99% of everything we eat or use has never been tested for safety or lack thereof. Pharmaceutical drugs, GMO foods, and a short list of industrial and agricultural chemicals are the only things that have been thoroughly tested for toxicity; this amounts to only a few thousands of the many millions of compounds we encounter on a regular basis.
 
William Rogers said:
It is true that properly cursed finishes ..................
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Hmmm.. but, cursed by whom? a Bruja? a Witch Doctor? a Shaman? Or, maybe properly cursed finish only gets that way when improperly applied and the person applying starts off with .. "Ohh, S****" ?
Schadenfreude Lol GIF by MOODMAN
 
Roger Wiegand said:
The only finishing ingredients I'm aware of that would have FDA approval are mineral oil and shellac. And then only if you are using USP grade material produced in a factory that is regularly inspected and approved by the FDA, with lot-by-lot documented quality control. There's no way you want to pay the price for those products.

A second class of materials is the GRAS list (Generally Recognized as Safe). The link provides access to the food, food ingredient, and food packaging lists. This will extend the list of finishing ingredients to include most oils used as food. It's important to note that just because something is GRAS that is not proof of safety. Indeed some of the items on the GRAS list (nitrites, eg) are known not to be safe, but are in such widespread use (and have been for thousands of years) that eliminating them from foods is deemed undoable. Often they (again, like nitrites) are natural substances present in many foods.

Finally, it is impossible to prove "safety". You can only say that under certain conditions at certain doses it doesn't appear to cause harm to most people. Proving "unsafety" is trivial in comparison. 99.99% of everything we eat or use has never been tested for safety or lack thereof. Pharmaceutical drugs, GMO foods, and a short list of industrial and agricultural chemicals are the only things that have been thoroughly tested for toxicity; this amounts to only a few thousands of the many millions of compounds we encounter on a regular basis.
Click to expand...
Osmo oil is exactly one of those products. Each batch is submitted to the European equivalent of fda for approval I believe.
 

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Roger Wiegand said:
The only finishing ingredients I'm aware of that would have FDA approval are mineral oil and shellac.
Click to expand...


Roger, there are several that have FDA approval. Watco butcher block oil, and General’s Salad bowl finish both have FDA approval. They have done the testing and submitted to the FDA for approval. I’m unaware of shellac being FDA approved, but it may well be.
 
The GRAS list also includes the following for use in food packaging:

§181.26 Drying oils as components of finished resins.​

Substances classified as drying oils, when migrating from food-packaging material (as components of finished resins) shall include:

Chinawood oil (tung oil).
Dehydrated castor oil.
Linseed oil.
Tall oil.
 
William Rogers said:
Roger, there are several that have FDA approval. Watco butcher block oil, and General’s Salad bowl finish both have FDA approval. They have done the testing and submitted to the FDA for approval. I’m unaware of shellac being FDA approved, but it may well be.
Click to expand...
Shellac is frequently used to coat pills, particularly for compounds with a very bitter taste.
 
Roger Wiegand said:
Shellac is frequently used to coat pills, particularly for compounds with a very bitter taste.
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Yes pure shellac is food grade, but Zinnser shellac was not for a while as they added methanol as a solvent . They had to remove it to pass Canada’s tougher restrictions. So all Canadas Zinnser shellac i believe is food safe. Not sure about the USA zinnser.
 
OK, I think this is the most relevant list of what is allowed in food contact. I would not regard any of this as "FDA Approved", merely as not prohibited. There's a difference between affirmative testing for toxicity and acceptance of millennia of common practice. I suspect this list is the source of the "all dried clear finishes are food safe" mantra (which I don't disagree with).

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=se21.3.175_1300&rgn=div8

I'd note that there's a whole bunch of stuff on that list that I wouldn't eat intentionally.
 
When it comes to food contact, I put turned items into 2 categories - utility and serving (my terminology). Serving has solid food - whole fruit, bread, cookies, etc laying on the surface, but no utensils used. Utility being wooden utensils, salad mixing and eating, cut fruit, cheese, etc. For utility you really dont want a hard, or film, or shiny surface that gets scratched up. A physically softer, satin or matte finish that better retains the original look is better. The prepolymerized oils (Mohoneys,, T&T, others) with no driers added are perfect for the utility items as the oils do eventually cure but are food safe before curing, dont show the scratches as badly, and can be wiped down with various food oils over time to improve the look if desired.
 
I won't put anything on my bowls that I can't eat safely right out of the can. For me, that is the walnut oil from The Doctor's Woodshop. Some people are sensitive to the driers in some of the finishes for long after they have 'cured'....

robo hippy
 
General Salad Bowl Finish and Watco Butcher Block Oil are labeled “FDA Approved”. They have submitted data and have obtained approval from the FDA. I have used those for food contact bowls, however like Doug I use walnut oil for utility bowls.
 
f177383food safe was just recently a topic within this thread:

Need an easy finish

I've been finishing my bowls with "shine juice". It works okay if I just keep it really thin, but it's sheen doesn't seem to last very long. I have also thickly applied it and it turned out well, but took 3 days to get it done. I am looking for a high gloss finish that is super tough, super...
www.aawforum.org www.aawforum.org

In particular see @Jeff Schmucker 's postings (#12 & #15).
 
Roger Wiegand said:
The only finishing ingredients I'm aware of that would have FDA approval are mineral oil and shellac. And then only if you are using USP grade material produced in a factory that is regularly inspected and approved by the FDA, with lot-by-lot documented quality control. There's no way you want to pay the price for those products.

A second class of materials is the GRAS list (Generally Recognized as Safe). The link provides access to the food, food ingredient, and food packaging lists. This will extend the list of finishing ingredients to include most oils used as food. It's important to note that just because something is GRAS that is not proof of safety. Indeed some of the items on the GRAS list (nitrites, eg) are known not to be safe, but are in such widespread use (and have been for thousands of years) that eliminating them from foods is deemed undoable. Often they (again, like nitrites) are natural substances present in many foods.

Finally, it is impossible to prove "safety". You can only say that under certain conditions at certain doses it doesn't appear to cause harm to most people. Proving "unsafety" is trivial in comparison. 99.99% of everything we eat or use has never been tested for safety or lack thereof. Pharmaceutical drugs, GMO foods, and a short list of industrial and agricultural chemicals are the only things that have been thoroughly tested for toxicity; this amounts to only a few thousands of the many millions of compounds we encounter on a regular basis.
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Thank you. Good thoughts Roger. I'm guessing you are/ were in the field of education?
 
As a new bowl turner with only a few under my belt, I am following this topic with interest. Though I am loving the glossy finish I am getting from a combination of Yorkshire Grit followed by shine juice, I have a growing stack of black walnut blanks between my bandsaw and my lathe, and I'd like to maybe finish some of them as salad or food bowls, and may follow the advice of friends and family to start selling some of them locally.

I have put both the Mahoney's and Doctor's Woodshop in my cart-decisions, decisions.
 
William Rogers said:
General Salad Bowl Finish and Watco Butcher Block Oil are labeled “FDA Approved”. They have submitted data and have obtained approval from the FDA. I have used those for food contact bowls, however like Doug I use walnut oil for utility bowls.
Click to expand...

It seems that General Finishes has changed their labeling and their claims. They renamed their Salad Bowl Finish. It's now called Wood Bowl Finish. Here's what their website says (link):

Wood Bowl Finish is a durable oil-and-urethane oil-based finish is designed for use on decorative wooden bowls and turnings. For countertops actively used for chopping and cutting, we recommend Butcher Block Oil.​
​
*Wood Bowl Finish was previously called Salad Bowl Finish.​
 
Dave Bunge said:
It seems that General Finishes has changed their labeling and their claims. They renamed their Salad Bowl Finish. It's now called Wood Bowl Finish. Here's what their website says (link):

Wood Bowl Finish is a durable oil-and-urethane oil-based finish is designed for use on decorative wooden bowls and turnings. For countertops actively used for chopping and cutting, we recommend Butcher Block Oil.​
​
*Wood Bowl Finish was previously called Salad Bowl Finish.​
Click to expand...
Well that's a switch. I always thought that "Bowl Finish" smelled pretty strong.
Thanks Dave.
 
Dave Bunge said:
It seems that General Finishes has changed their labeling and their claims. They renamed their Salad Bowl Finish. It's now called Wood Bowl Finish. Here's what their website says (link):

Wood Bowl Finish is a durable oil-and-urethane oil-based finish is designed for use on decorative wooden bowls and turnings. For countertops actively used for chopping and cutting, we recommend Butcher Block Oil.​
​
*Wood Bowl Finish was previously called Salad Bowl Finish.​
Click to expand...
Obvious I haven’t bought it in a while. Just looked up Watco and still says food safe. I haven’t bought that in a while either.
 
Glenn Lefley said:
Osmo oil is exactly one of those products. Each batch is submitted to the European equivalent of fda for approval I believe.
Click to expand...
Glen, I found a post of yours from November of 2020 where you said you "love this stuff" speaking of the Osmo.
Do you still feel that way, and if so, which Osmo product are you using?
Thanks.
 
I buy my butcher block oil at Dollar General.. it's found in the health & beauty aisle.. it's called Mineral Oil... exactly the same stuff (and smell) as the stuff I poured out of a small bottle of expensive branded butcher block oil (wasn't watco) so I assumed "butcher block oil" is just a fancy name for Mineral Oil..
 
Brian, you are mostly correct, they add a little bees wax to most of the commercial “butcher block oils”. When I made cutting boards I bought the mineral oil at pharmacy and a cosmetic grade bees wax, melting the bees wax in the mineral oil. I never found a bees wax that said food grade, only cosmetic grade.
 
Ahh yes, butcher block oil. The Boos company that makes hard maple countertops and actual butcher blocks has an oil product that I used. I am not a chemist, but it sure looked and felt like mineral oil.
 
Dave Bunge said:
It seems that General Finishes has changed their labeling and their claims. They renamed their Salad Bowl Finish. It's now called Wood Bowl Finish. Here's what their website says (link):

Wood Bowl Finish is a durable oil-and-urethane oil-based finish is designed for use on decorative wooden bowls and turnings. For countertops actively used for chopping and cutting, we recommend Butcher Block Oil.​
​
*Wood Bowl Finish was previously called Salad Bowl Finish.​
Click to expand...
Tom Albrecht said:
Glen, I found a post of yours from November of 2020 where you said you "love this stuff" speaking of the Osmo.
Do you still feel that way, and if so, which Osmo product are you using?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
I love osmo. When I first used it I put some on let it dry and it was awful. Patchy, shining in places. Being a carpenter / painter I should know better. Read directions. Most paint products are pretty specific in application. When I read you put it on with a pad, a white 3m pad, a small piece rubbing the finish circular into the wood. And then making sure surface stays damp for 3 minutes. Add a drop or two more if places look like drying out. After 3 minutes wipe clean. Let dry. It turns out beautiful. I love it. I bought this a couple of years ago and thought it was expensive I should have bought the really small can as it’s still almost full. You use very little each time.
 

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Chatting with Michael Meridith of the Doctor's Woodshop, the butcher block/mineral oil provides an 'impermeable' finish. The butcher blocks were scraped and oiled at night. then first thing in the morning, they were scraped down again and then put to work. It is a very 'temporary' finish. The Boos Block stuff is mineral oil. Not sure if they put wax in it or not. If so, it is bees wax. The doctor uses 'micro agregated' carnuba wax. What his does is that it spreads evenly without heat. Not sure about the process Mike Mahoney uses.

robo hippy
 
Tom, I highly recommend the Doctor's walnut oils. The Robo Hippy touched on it above but the Doctor is a PhD turner and he makes what he certifies as "food safe" finishes. Take a look at his website. He makes a whole series of great walnut oil products...but I sincerely like the High Build Friction Polish for food container vessels (NO waiting for curing, nice soft shine finish, can be touched up with any off-the-shelf salad walnut oil). Over the years, I have moved to finishing the inside of my salad bowls with the Doctor's walnut oil...and using a buffed Waterlox (my favorite) or Danish on the outside of the salad bowl. Gives a nice appearance with the benefits of "food safe" when used.
 
Decided early on this is one of those topics with no agreed to answer and lots of possible good/right solutions. I also learned I get asked almost every time I sell a bowl if it's "food safe". Even on decorative items. I think it's a standard question people feel they're supposed to ask and know. I could not remember multiple finish types for each bowl and didn't want to try and explain different answers or debate it with someone that felt I was wrong so I standardized on walnut oil - done. I like the outcome, easy to use, no one debates it with me and it fits with the "natural, hand made in my shop, looks and feels like wood" look that I like.
 
There is no such thing as "Food Safe" these days when you read up on what we now consider to be safe food. I was eating a bowl of instant oatmeal at work last week when a co-worker made the comment that he was surprised that I wood eat such a product. I was puzzled by the comment and asked why would I be concerned with eating oatmeal. He mentioned that it is a common practice to spray oat fields with a common used herbicide several weeks before harvesting. 90% of all oat products test positive in varying levels of the commonly used herbicide. When a plant is stressed it usually starts sending all of the nutrients to the fruit and seed. The finish on the bowl is the least of your worries, what you put in the bowl and consume is the bigger concern.
 
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