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Health Concerns over Sharpening Tools

Joined
Jul 14, 2010
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Location
College Station, TX
Do you ware a dust mask while sharpening your steel tools on a bench grinder? I have always "smelt" the iron while sharpening my tools (and it lingers for hours afterwards) but didn't think too much of it because we need iron in our blood. However I started thinking just yesterday while sharpening a bowl gouge that, sure, we need iron but what does it do in our lungs? Besides, steel contains molybdenum and vanadium, among other things. Mo is an essential metal for us but again what is its effect when it ends up in our lungs? V is not good for our health if ingested in significant amounts but how about tiny particles inhaled? Also, do elements in alloys behave differently from their elemental (or oxidized) form? Anyway, I would like to know your thoughts on this subject.
 
Andy,

Yes, I wear my PAPR (a 3M BreatheEasy or AirStream) when I am sharpening.
 
Since getting a CBN wheel, I spend more time waiting for the wheel to come to speed than sharpening. I have a small rare earth magnet in a plastic sandwich bag to capture what little metal fines get deposited, and i dont see how much of anything can get into your lungs.
 
The aluminum oxide from the wheels is not good for you. It floats in the air while the steel dust seems to sink. I have a shop vac hooked up to my grinder
 
better safe than sorry

Not putting as much garbage in the air is one of the reasons I want CBN wheels. Grinding puts all kind of things in the air including the binder that holds standard wheels together. Some of the things in alloy are bad, grit is bad, there just ain't much that we can add to air that is good for your lungs.

A pleasant thought the next time you are near a cow pasture or turkey farm, scent is actually tiny particles of whatever you smell. If you smell something you are almost guaranteed some part of it is entering your lungs as well as bronchial tubes and such along the way. I had a really nasty bronchial infection once that hit immediately after spraying a paint job with a high level of iso-cyanates without adequate protection. The doctor said it was totally unrelated, I remain skeptical. He was the partner of my regular doctor and didn't strike me as the sharpest knife in the drawer.

When there is any question about something being safe to breathe it is best to remember that we are actually taking in particles of whatever we smell. Any doubt at all, better safe than sorry!

Hu
 
Andy, I convinced myself several years ago that using a bench grinder, especially with Aluminum Oxide wheels, but also with Norton 3X SG wheels that there is a lot of abrasive material hanging in the air and it is not good stuff to be breathing -- I'll forgo describing my "proof". Suffice it to say that if you smell something that it is in your sinuses and lungs. Even though my bench grinder has a built-in hook-up for a shop vac, much of the dust isn't picked up. This is one reason that I almost exclusively use my Tormek for sharpening. I have used a friend's grinder with a CBN wheel and it is a HUGE improvement over regular grinding wheels with respect to particles of crap in the air and also the quality of the edge. It's almost enough to make me think about getting a CBN wheel for my own grinder.
 
.... A pleasant thought the next time you are near a cow pasture or turkey farm, scent is actually tiny particles of whatever you smell .....

When there is any question about something being safe to breathe it is best to remember that we are actually taking in particles of whatever we smell. Any doubt at all, better safe than sorry!

Hu

Hu, I recently talked to a pulmonary doctor about breathing particulates when I was considering writing an article on the topic and he confirmed exactly what you and I think about the subject.

Any "fragrance" of steel that we smell can only happen if we have some of it in our sinuses. Same thing goes for mesquite, cocobolo, deer antler, as well as the the "stuff" that you mentioned. :D
 
The aluminum oxide from the wheels is not good for you. It floats in the air while the steel dust seems to sink. I have a shop vac hooked up to my grinder

John, I have blown enough steel out of my nose to know that it is not much different than the aluminum oxide. The big difference seems to be that there is a lot of dust from the wheel while not very much steel is actually removed unless we are doing some heavy duty grinding. It does help to use the shop vac to collect the dust, but in my tiny cramped shop, I always made excuses why it was too much trouble.
 
Your sense of smell is chemical. "Particles" are not required, nor are they present in most olfactory experiences - unless you count molecules as particles. Check the scent of your Glade oil and then search for particles.
 
odor particles

4 years ago I bought a metal "grate" garden cart. Could smell the rubber wheels (petroleum smell-china;s finest) for 3 years in spite of it's being in pole barn or outdoors, -. Didn't notice this year. Do I have rubber up my nose????:eek::DGretch
 
4 years ago I bought a metal "grate" garden cart. Could smell the rubber wheels (petroleum smell-china;s finest) for 3 years in spite of it's being in pole barn or outdoors, -. Didn't notice this year. Do I have rubber up my nose????:eek::DGretch

Heh,heh,heh.......:D

I can't offer any scientific information, but I do tend to think MM is correct about the smell being chemical, rather than actual particulates in your nose. This doesn't mean that the particulates aren't there, but the smell is not an indication that they are.

Those who have hunted big game are well aware that animals have an acute sense of smell, and can smell you from a distance. This is why it's often a successful hunter that stalks facing the wind. I doubt that many particles of the hunter are being carried by the wind.

To be totally safe, I suppose a turner could always wear breathing protection while grinding.......but, this is another of those things that is unlikely to be done by most turners. Some will, simply because they can't make these decisions for themselves, and are not willing to take the heat from those who point fingers.

There must be some point where one should wear protection from grinding. Maybe initial shaping of some turning tools would qualify.......but, for the most part, sharpening is for a very short period of time. I'm one who isn't likely to do it. I never have, anyway, but after considering this thread, I might do it sometimes.

Related: It is possible that the smell of steel while grinding is an indication that heat......or over-heating could be a factor.

ooc
 
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4 years ago I bought a metal "grate" garden cart. Could smell the rubber wheels (petroleum smell-china;s finest) for 3 years in spite of it's being in pole barn or outdoors, -. Didn't notice this year. Do I have rubber up my nose????:eek::DGretch

I can't answer your question and really don't want to know what's there. I think that most of us are smart enough to figure out some simple things like what we are inhaling whether something is outgassing, emitting fumes (as in paint or CA) or the aroma of flowers or food cooking or smelling something that doesn't normally emit a smell at room temperature. Is there really a need for making put-down statements just because you may disagree?

I have blown plenty of solid particulates from my nose and have come to the opinion that can't possibly be beneficial considering the after effects that I have suffered. It also may not be terribly harmful, but I'll let somebody else be the laboratory rat. I suppose that if somebody doesn't do anything to mitigate dust for any other turning operations such as sanding then they probably don't see a problem in breathing aluminum oxide dust either.

And, Odie, I know that every time that I say something about safety that you feel that I am itching to impose a rule upon your turning. Relax, my friend. I won't be sending the dust police after you. I think that you have a good handle on what is safe and unsafe and proceed as you see fit.
 
I can't answer your question and really don't want to know what's there. I think that most of us are smart enough to figure out some simple things like what we are inhaling whether something is outgassing, emitting fumes (as in paint or CA) or the aroma of flowers or food cooking or smelling something that doesn't normally emit a smell at room temperature. Is there really a need for making put-down statements just because you may disagree?

I have blown plenty of solid particulates from my nose and have come to the opinion that can't possibly be beneficial considering the after effects that I have suffered. It also may not be terribly harmful, but I'll let somebody else be the laboratory rat. I suppose that if somebody doesn't do anything to mitigate dust for any other turning operations such as sanding then they probably don't see a problem in breathing aluminum oxide dust either.

And, Odie, I know that every time that I say something about safety that you feel that I am itching to impose a rule upon your turning. Relax, my friend. I won't be sending the dust police after you. I think that you have a good handle on what is safe and unsafe and proceed as you see fit.

Whoa there, Bill........

We've known Gretch long enough to know she's just kidding around. She might disagree, and she might not......that point isn't clear to me. For all we know, she's just taking things in and hasn't decided yet how she thinks about this at all.

Understand that my thought was the sense of smell may not be an indication that physical particles are present. I have no idea if that is correct, or not, but don't take it personal.

To respond to your last statement.......I really don't care if you are trying to impose "rules", or not. I really didn't take it that way, and you must understand that I make my own rules for my own use, and I have no problems expressing how I feel, whether or not my opinions fall within general accepted "givens". There are plenty of so-called "rules" that most turners will not see as absolutes, and I feel I'm one of many who feel this way. This is not to say that I cannot be influenced by what other turners think and do, but I'm the one who decides whether these things are valid, as applied to my own lathe use.

ooc
 
the things we smell

The things we smell can be measured. They are tangible, not intangible. That doesn't mean that when we smell manure for example that manure is entering our nose. Some portion of the make up of the manure is entering our nose though.

I have lung damage from both asbestos and iso-cyanates in paint. The asbestos is indeed shreds of asbestos. The way asbestos breaks up essentially leaves it with barbed ends and once stuck in your lung tissue it is there for the duration. The iso-cyanates are chemical in nature I assume. Even when I protected myself from the larger paint solids I didn't have adequate protection from the iso-cyanates. The iso-cyanates were in the paint, they became airborne, they are in my lungs or were in them and damaged them. I am forever highly sensitive to further exposure to the cyanates, such as CA glue. I can use a few drops of it with decent ventilation with no noticeable issues, I can't use it as a finish without very strong ventilation or supplied air.

Odors have mass. Some very little as our sense of smell is very sensitive. How much inhalation of whatever is a personal choice. I don't want to go through life so timidly that they have to knock me in the head with a stump when they are ready to bury me. At the same time, I prefer not to die prematurely due to exposure to some of the known hazards that are easily protected against. Seems each of us has to find our own comfort level in all things.

Hu
 
Odie, I was just yanking your chain to see if you were still here (or there). However, I probably over reacted to Gretch'es comment. Please pardon my less than civil response, Gretch. To tell the truth, I sort of like the smell of new tires, as well as vinyl upholstery, Simple Green, Go-Jo, wheel bearing grease, MEK, new shoes, and freshly mowed hay. For certain MEK is not good to breathe, but I am sure that the others are just fine if not carried to extreme. Allergies might rule out the hay for some.
 
I have lung damage from both asbestos and iso-cyanates in paint. The asbestos is indeed shreds of asbestos. The way asbestos breaks up essentially leaves it with barbed ends and once stuck in your lung tissue it is there for the duration. The iso-cyanates are chemical in nature I assume.

The great scare on wood dust centers around particles, as an extrapolation from data on asbestosis/silicosis and similar inert minerals' mechanical damage. The proper model should be byssinosis, "brown lung" or "Monday-morning disease" formerly common in cotton and other textile processing. The cellulose in wood is pretty much the same as the cellulose in cotton. http://www.lung.org/lung-disease/byssinosis/understanding-byssinosis.html

Q&D on two types of particulates encountered. Since what you can't see can hurt you, like the isocyanate radical, or the fumes from other solvents, it's not a big step to understand that the odor of warm walnut, the smell of dark tropical hardwoods or even our domestic maple can provoke asthma-like reactions as well. I can testify that the smell of vomitus and other substances ejected by the body are obvious even through the HEPA mask which is supposed to protect me from the TB bacillus. If you're sneezing, the dust mask is not likely to stop it, while the charcoal will. Still, it's not a bad idea to keep benadryl handy for this, as well as dermatitis, and for those with known sensitivities, perhaps your epi-pen.

Fortunately, the particulate damage seems to occur only after prolonged and extreme exposures (opaque atmospheres ) which most of us will never encounter, and which can be countered by a simple dust mask. Chemicals act faster, and require charcoal adsorption, though the best advice is still the advice given in the old vaudeville joke.

"Doc, it hurts when I do this."

"Dont do that."
 
Wasn't going to, but feel I should weigh in on this discussion. I am a physician (Critical Care and Anesthesiology), and was formerly a consultant for the nuclear industry and defense departments (16 years in Naval and commercial nuclear power).

Warning, science will follow!

That said:

MM is spot on to a degree. Every time you smell something, that smell is the brain trying to make sense of signals received from thousands of olfactory nerve ending coming directly from the brain through the crib inform plate. That is the bone at the base of the skull inside the roof of the nose.

Anything that triggers those nerves/receptors sends a signal to the olfactory cortex (part of the brain). How the brain interoperates these signals is what constitutes smell.

Most often, airborne vapors (gaseous chemicals) trigger these receptor. However, they can also be directly triggered by particulates reaching the receptor cells. For each chemical, there is a minimum signal (threshold) below which we are not sensitive. Many things alter this sensitivity and the perception of scent; age, medications, other medical conditions, and learning/experience.

That's the nose and olfactory nerve story.

lungs, on the other hand, are designed to breath air. Many things can injure or irritate the delicate lining of the respiratory tract. It is heavily innervated, as it is a matter of life or death. The brain reacts very strongly to inhaled irritants.

We know that inhaling silica, in various forms, can cause cancer in the lung. The most scary of all is mesothelioma. That is essentially a cancer of the lungs lining. It is incurable and always deadly. You may have heard of this being caused by inhaling asbestos fibers (stringy silica), but it can and does occur from inhaling small particles of silica in any form. Aluminum Oxide, while not officially a silicate, has been implicated in several bad lung diseases, including a form of black lung and mesothelioma.

Anything that irritates the lung or respiratory piping (trachea, bronchi, alveoli) will cause a reaction. Many times (actually most of the time) these interlocking particles are expunged by mucous and the ciliary elevator system (little cells that line the piping, and wisk irritants out as sputum). Sometimes that system is ruined by smoking or constant irritation from a regular exposure to irritants. If the body can't rid itself of these unwanted visitors, it walls them off in an attempt to isolate the irritant. This results in small areas of lung that cannot exchange gases. If constant, repeated, and irritating enough, it can result in asthma, emphesyma, or cancer.

I would agree that one should not inhale AO dust. I also would agree that inhaling any particulate on a regular basis is bad (cloth particles, coal dust, cigarette smoke, chemicals of any sort that irritate the lung).

AO dust is particularly difficult because it remains airborne for a long long time (aerosol). As said earlier, metal grinding do not stay airborne very long, and are easily caught before the become airborne, if they are magnetic, and can be thrown in front of a strong magnet. Not only will CBN wheels make for sharper tools with less overheating of the tools, but it does not break off the wheel to be one airborne. I myself use CBN wheels exclusively, and have several bar magnets sitting in front or and behind the wheels to catch these grinding pArticles. When the magnets get "hairy", I take them off and brush them into the trash using a stiff brush.

If I used AO wheels, and turned more than once in a while, I would use a good N95 level respirator or a good evacuation system to catch and prevent the dust from being inhaled.

End of science discussion. Hope I didn't cause any seizures.
 
Whoa there, Bill........

"We've known Gretch long enough to know she's just kidding around. She might disagree, and she might not......that point isn't clear to me. For all we know, she's just taking things in and hasn't decided yet how she thinks about this at all.:

Right on ODIE!!!! From my physics 50 years ago I remember the particle theory of light and why light "bends" (gravity??) . Don't remember anything about odors!!!, Gretch
 
Thanks for the information, Dr. Jeff.........

OK, I've decided to pay more attention to breathing protection while grinding, and am putting together an order for Packard right now.

Making things easy and convenient is important to assuring protection will be used, and I'm ordering a Resp-o-rator Jr. model to keep close at hand, and handy for grinding.

click:
http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...oduct_Code=196693&Category_Code=hlth-sfty-ror

I've been using a regular Resp-o-rator for much of my general sanding, and turning of spalted woods, rosewoods, Wenge, and etc for the past couple years, and am completely satisfied with this product.

For long term sanding, and a few other applications, I'm still using my Airstream unit......this is the best for extended use.

ooc
 
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There are 'special' dust collectors for grinders. They are spark proof, meaning they won't catch fire when sparks go inside. Having a hood around the grinder might make for an interesting project if we can make sure no sparks go into the dust collectors. One of the reasons I prefer the CBN wheels is because there is no dust from the grinding wheel, only steel. I just sweep it in with the shavings.

robo hippy
 
Grinder dust counters

I have a Dylos dust counter and made notes of the counts using a grinder at http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=9178&page=4&highlight=grinder+dust

OSHA has an issue with inhaling metallic particles. I agree with Gilfor that these particles need to be avoided as much as the stone dust.

Has any document really confirm for certain that the respiratory problems in woodworkers is due to just the wood dust? There are so many other dust and chemicals involved in woodworking, I suspect them to be a major contributor to the health issues in addition to the wood dust.

My dust counter runs very high every time cleanup is started whether with a broom or a vacuum. Also, without a large filtering system, the dust lingers in the air for hours at high counts.

I built a great home-built filtration system. I got one of the big round fans from big-box that runs ~$100 on sale (mine is orange). That was stacked on top of a wood frame with 4 large house filters (allergy type). The fan is rated at 4000cfm which is able to clear my 40x20x12high workshop in 10minutes. Note that the washable filters do NOT remove ANY 0.5 or 2.5micron particles. That was an expensive test! The 3M Filtrates have been working well. This system at low speed is able to clean the air to lower particle counters than I can get in my house (~20 in shop compared to ~120 in house) when no power tools are running.
 
Thanks for the information, Dr. Jeff.........

OK, I've decided to pay more attention to breathing protection while grinding, and am putting together an order for Packard right now.

Making things easy and convenient is important to assuring protection will be used, and I'm ordering a Resp-o-rator Jr. model to keep close at hand, and handy for grinding.

click:
http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...oduct_Code=196693&Category_Code=hlth-sfty-ror

I've been using a regular Resp-o-rator for much of my general sanding, and turning of spalted woods, rosewoods, Wenge, and etc for the past couple years, and am completely satisfied with this product.

For long term sanding, and a few other applications, I'm still using my Airstream unit......this is the best for extended use.

ooc

Update.......I've had the resp-o-rator jr. handy at the grinding station, and have used it on occasion. For the great majority of my grinding, it's simply a matter of re-fresh of an existing grind. Usually the actual grinding that takes place is only about 10 or 15 seconds, and it's done. I know it would be best to always use breathing protection, but unless I anticipate a longer grind than usual, I'm not using the resp-o-rator all the time. Consider this a human failing, or whatever......but it appears as if always using protection isn't going to happen with everyone.

Now, if I change the shape of the grind wings, or bevel angle, I know it will take more time.......and I use the resp-o-rator jr.

ooc
 
Wheel Dressing?

Wow, lots of great discussion and information in this thread. My biggest concern at the grinder is when dressing a wheel. The cloud of AO dust is huge. I hold a shop vac hose next to the dresser to try and catch as much as possible but I don't get it all. Some form of particle protection is certainly a good idea in this case. I will be much more careful after this thread.

Just an aside-the Norton 3X SG wheels are made of Aluminum oxide grit in a binder matrix. I have been reading a lot on wheels in preparation for a sharpening class I'm teaching. I have not found any health warnings about AO that I can recall. Maybe a little scary ? Aluminum oxide is in itself essentially inert-it is the reaction of our bodies when it gets trapped that becomes a problem as the Dr. has described.

Turn-and grind-safely!
 
Jeff Thanks for the info. If you'll put a plastic bag around your magnets it is very very easy to get all the metal filings off. Just pull the bag off. Works fantastic.
 
... Just an aside-the Norton 3X SG wheels are made of Aluminum oxide grit in a binder matrix. I have been reading a lot on wheels in preparation for a sharpening class I'm teaching. I have not found any health warnings about AO that I can recall. Maybe a little scary ? Aluminum oxide is in itself essentially inert-it is the reaction of our bodies when it gets trapped that becomes a problem as the Dr. has described.

Turn-and grind-safely!

Yes, basically we have two kinds of wheels -- the silicon carbide gray wheels that come with a new grinder and what most people use. Being smarter than the average cat we know that AO (which comes in a multitude of variations in all sorts of pretty colors), is a far better choice for sharpening our HSS turning tools although we now have a new problem of shedding lots of dust and grit which is not a significant issue with the silicon carbide wheels. The 3X with SG technology wheels are better than plain wheels when it comes to creating crap and the super-duper expensive SG wheels shed even less.

about the dust and grit: we have no problem recognizing that poisonous things are bad for our health, but that doesn't imply anything about everything else being OK. Playing a piano isn't harmful, but the mythical one falling from a skyscraper might be. A beautiful curly maple turning blank isn't harmful unless it conks you in the head. And an AO wheel isn't harmful unless we snort it into our lungs. We can mistakenly believe that the AO from the wheel is all large grit that doesn't include fine particles that remain airborne for a long time, but I think that most of us know otherwise. As the doc said, once particles manage to get to the depths of the lungs there is no mechanism for the body to remove the foreign body so instead it gets walled off which means decreased lung capacity.

Since I have seen how lung diseases destroy the quality of life in close friends and relatives, that's all the convincing I need. I encourage others that not everything needs to be learned the hard way. I also believe what others say about examining hot horse shoes testing electric fences.
 
water trap

Internet went down and while it was down I decided to play fireman a few days, an ag operation started a fire that reached within two hundred feet of my home and burned thirty acres or so of this property. No harm done other than a huge seasoned pecan log lost I intended to cut into blanks but interesting times! No time to keep up with the important things in life, like the internet.

Anyway, wanted to point out a very inexpensive and effective filtering system. I put it together to trap fine silica dust from my blasting cabinet that went right through normal filters and it also makes a very effective spark extinguisher with the caveat that you have to be careful to get the sparks to it, no sharp curves or corrugations to trap sparks before the water trap.

A simple five gallon bucket with a snap on lid is all that is needed. I attached a long piece of pvc and a short one through the lid of the bucket. Fill the bucket with water four or five inches above the inlet, the high and dry outlet goes to the vacuum system. Worked very well with the occasional emptying which only took a few minutes. Cost under ten dollars to make, worked for years until I lost it in a move. I'll build another when needed.

No reason other than the little bit of space taken not to have one of these traps near or under every machine producing grit or metal shavings.

Hu
 
I got a call from a very dear friend last night who has meant so much to me over many years. A few monts ago he started having problems breathing. He told me that he is now in hospice care and the doctors have done all they can.
 
Cleaning shop (studio) air has been intimated but not really addressed.

You all can spend $100 or $1000 on personal breathing protection, but as soon as you pop it off to answer the phone you've negated most of the benefit. Wear your airstream and such, of course, but remember that your clothing is a dust magnet so that at the end of your session when you go into the house for a brew or dinner, etm. you're literally a walking dust bin ("Pig-Pen") and you and your family are getting up close and personal with all of the super fine particulates that you thought you left in the shop.

The best answer is, of course, primary dust collection of all types of dust at the sources coupled with continuous cleaning of the ambient air in the shop, and coveralls that you take off and leave behind. A good ambient air cleaner is very easy to make, a 20" box fan plus a few HEPA furnace filters will do an amazingly good job hung from the ceiling. Two of them on opposite sides of the shop will do an outstanding job of circulating clean air. Change the filters once a month, and it's a simple task to wire them into a delay switch so they run for an hour after you leave.

Put your primary dust collector outside of your shop to prevent returning the most dangerous (too small to see) dust to the shop's atmosphere. Yes, you will be removing conditioned (heated/cooled) air from your shop, but trust me on this one, the cost of utilities to make up for the loss is a pittance compared to the price of a lung transplant.
 
very sorry to read this

I got a call from a very dear friend last night who has meant so much to me over many years. A few monts ago he started having problems breathing. He told me that he is now in hospice care and the doctors have done all they can.


Bill,

Very sorry to read about your friend and sorry for your pain and distress. It is horrible to know someone you care about is dying and there is nothing you can do. I lost my Grandmother, Dad, and several friends to lung diseases. A tough way to go. The one small blessing is he does have a chance to prepare himself and others.

I wish there were words of comfort, there really aren't any.

Hu
 
I got a call from a very dear friend last night who has meant so much to me over many years. A few monts ago he started having problems breathing. He told me that he is now in hospice care and the doctors have done all they can.

Always a sad time. Let's hope he's comfortable, Condolences Bill, Gretch
 
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