Hard Wax Oil?

[Bill Alston]

What is it, can you make your own, and is it any good for turned items? I ask as I see this stuff advertised quite a bit but commercial Hard Wax Oils can be quite expensive.
I learned that abrasive wax is very easy to make and 1/3 the cost of commercial products so I don’t want to make buy anything like Hard Wax Oil at a premium that I could make myself. Opinions?

 

[robo hippy]

Not sure what "hard wax" oil is. If you are talking Rubio Monocote, yes, it is expensive, but a tiny bit of it goes a long way. I do prefer it to Osmo.

robo hippy

 

[Jon Rista]

Hmm. Are you thinking that hardwax oil is like a finishing abrasive wax paste? As I understand it, and my experience is with Osmo, hardwax oil is a hard-curing oil finish itself. I've never noticed that it has any kind of abrasive in it, though. It cures to a very durable coat that is abrasion resistant and generally quite resilient. They, or at least the Osmo hardwax, takes a long time to cure though. Days. For turned items, I ended up deciding that waiting that long for a finish to cure wasn't worth it.

 

[Holmes Anderson]

What is it, can you make your own, and is it any good for turned items? I ask as I see this stuff advertised quite a bit but commercial Hard Wax Oils can be quite expensive.
I learned that abrasive wax is very easy to make and 1/3 the cost of commercial products so I don’t want to make buy anything like Hard Wax Oil at a premium that I could make myself. Opinions?

A mixture of polymerized oils and hard waxes like carnauba. Some like Odies seem almost homemade and others like Rubio, Osmo and Natura are probably too high tech to be duplicated in your woodshop. Compare cost per unit coverage rather than cost per unit volume because they are high solids and low VOC. Good choice for flooring if flat sheen is acceptable and good choice for furniture other than high-wear surfaces like tabletops if you don't have a spray booth. Not nearly as durable as conversion finishes but much more forgiving and can be applied in a dusty shop. I see some turners on YouTube using it. The two-part types cure much faster. I like the one-part Osmo because two-part finishes add application complication, but Rubio is perhaps the best if you want a tinted flat finish that can be applied in a dusty environment. There are obviously other good options for bowls, including no finish at all.

 

[Bill Alston]

Hmm. Are you thinking that hardwax oil is like a finishing abrasive wax paste?

No, I just mentioned that as an example of a product that’s easy to make for a fraction of the price.
These so called “Hard Wax Oils can be expensive. I’m just wondering if the product is any good. And maybe someone has a recipe?

 

[Michael Anderson]

I think @Michael Nathal uses hard wax oils quit a bit. Maybe Osmo?

 

[Graham Dolby]

Hmm. Are you thinking that hardwax oil is like a finishing abrasive wax paste? As I understand it, and my experience is with Osmo, hardwax oil is a hard-curing oil finish itself. I've never noticed that it has any kind of abrasive in it, though. It cures to a very durable coat that is abrasion resistant and generally quite resilient. They, or at least the Osmo hardwax, takes a long time to cure though. Days. For turned items, I ended up deciding that waiting that long for a finish to cure wasn't worth it.

I use Osmo and have no problems with it drying. Usually 6-8 hours for the first coat. Remember to use a Stop Loss bag!!! Don't use it on the rosewoods, it'll never set, IME.

 

[Bill Alston]

I should have googled it. Hard to understand why Tung Oil and Wax end up being so expensive.

What is Hardwax Oil? A Guide to the Natural Wood Preserver

Hardwax oil is a type of wood finish that can offer a multitude of benefits. Read on to discover exactly what it is and how it can be of use to you.

www.treatex.co.uk

 

[John K Jordan]

Don't use it on the rosewoods, it'll never set, IME.

That’s good to know.
Another thing I discovered is to not put “danish” oil on Cocobolo, also a Dalbergia. I did that once and over a few months the piece turned almost black - lost all the beautiful color.

JKJ

 

[Jon Rista]

I should have googled it. Hard to understand why Tung Oil and Wax end up being so expensive.

What is Hardwax Oil? A Guide to the Natural Wood Preserver

Hardwax oil is a type of wood finish that can offer a multitude of benefits. Read on to discover exactly what it is and how it can be of use to you.

www.treatex.co.uk

It also has a solvent. The datasheet today, says that Osmo uses "aliphatic" C10-C13, which seems different than when I used it...oh, I guess my can was bought about 3 years ago or so. I thought it also had some aromatics.

In any case, there is usually more to it than just oil and wax. There is a solvent, and sometimes driers (which are usually heavy metals). Most also seem to be a blend of oils, not a single oil. Tung is usually included for its water resistant properties, linseed, but I've been told other seed oils may be included as well.

Aliphatic solvents are just spirits. So if you wanted to make your own, you would want tung oil, maybe linseed oil, carnauba wax, and then mineral spirits. Thing is, I think the ratios matter, in order to get the best combination of penetration time to drying rate, which leads to optimal protection, hardness and durability. I honestly have no clue what those ratios are...and there is research there that is probably baked into the price of an off the shelf can.

 

[John K Jordan]

I honestly have no clue what those ratios are...and there is research there that is probably baked into the price of an off the shelf can.

I've read that the manufacturers are known to change their recipes from time to time. And tell no one.

JKJ

 

[Jon Rista]

I've read that the manufacturers are known to change their recipes from time to time. And tell no one.

JKJ

Probably. I mean, a couple years ago Colorado banned most VOCs. If Osmo in 2021 was using aromatics in their formulation, then, they wouldn't have been able to sell it here...but, it still is. So they may well have changed it, and went to just aliphatics, which IMO don't work as well, but they are legal here. I can see them having little choice to change formulations at times due to things like that. You can always look up the data sheet for these things, and see if anything changes there. They don't list the full set of compounds, only the stuff that might have a safety factor. So, you wouldn't be able to tell if they switched oils, or changed up their oil mix, etc. Some of the oil mix could be availability? A lot of tung oil comes from China...if trade wars heat up, that might price tung oil out of the mix?

 

[Lary Sanders]

A few clarifications on the chemistry involved that may help. First, "aliphatics" just refers to various lengths chains of C and H. Think from gasoline, mineral spirits are shorter chains. The get longer up to waxes - longer changes are still aliphatics but not as volatile or as good a solvent. "Aromatics" include hydrocarbons that include rings of carbon atoms. Most things from petroleum contain a mixture.

"Oil and waxes" covers a huge range of mixtures. One can "play" around with these to get different properties. Getting a combination that actually hardens or "dies" is more difficult. This is were things like "boiled" come into play. As mentioned above, these days that is often accomplished with heavy metals. For these, I think if you have something you like just use it. They do not generally don't provide much protection. Manufacturers don't tend to tell us what's in them and use all different kinds of names for marketing and "confusion"? As a chemist, I would not bother trying to duplicate the chemistry of "oils and waxes" that manufactures have come up with much research.

"hard wax oils" appears to me to be yet another confusing name that sounds good. Osmo and Rubio have very different chemistry that allows for more hardening and protection. Rubio say it "forms a molecular bond with the topmost fibers of the wood". Of course, they don't tell us what it is. It looks like these undergo a chemical reaction that changes the outcome other than just solvent evaporation providing greater protection. I use Rubio when I have the need for more protection but I think its too expensive for just and "oil" look.

 

[John K Jordan]

I use Rubio when I have the need for more protection but I think its too expensive for just and "oil" look.

Yikes, a chemist!! Yay!

I looked at the name Rubio on Amazon and saw some different products. Which do you prefer for protection?

JKJ

 

[Jon Rista]

A few clarifications on the chemistry involved that may help. First, "aliphatics" just refers to various lengths chains of C and H. Think from gasoline, mineral spirits are shorter chains. The get longer up to waxes - longer changes are still aliphatics but not as volatile or as good a solvent. "Aromatics" include hydrocarbons that include rings of carbon atoms. Most things from petroleum contain a mixture.

As I understand it though, aromatic compounds, based on the benzine ring, are more volatile and offer better solvent capability. Aliphatics, even shorter chains, are not as reactive and don't offer the same kind of solvent capability. IIRC, and its been a while since I actually studied organic chem, it has to do with the Pi bond, and how Benzene based compounds have better Pi bond structure and are better able to interact with the Pi bonds of other organic compounds, than most aliphatic compounds?

As far as efficacy with oil based finishes...my experience has been that the "green" "solvents" are all but useless, as far as power as a solvent goes. The more green, the less volatile, thus I guess the longer the compounds, and the less effective. I didn't know as much about "mineral spirits" before I started this thread, but apparently there are a number of varieties, some containing only low volatility aliphatic compounds, some containing higher volatility aliphatic compounds, some containing more aromatic compounds, and some containing a majority of aromatic compounds. Classic paint thinner is apparently more on the side of up to 60% aromatics vs. aliphatics, hence its effectiveness. Green "paint thinner" is mostly long chain aliphatics, and even water (!!) and sometimes are only compatible with water based, latex and other type paints (and are not just useless, but potentially detrimental as a solvent for oil based finishes.)

The problem I think a lot of colorado (and probably California) residents are running into, is that the odorless mineral spirits sold here now, are longer chain very low volatility aliphatic hydrocarbons, which offer very low solvent capability and often muck up oil based finishes, hurting and prolonging drying time, rather than doing anything useful. Those more volatile (shorter chain hydrocarbon) compounds, especially the benzine based aromatics with their strong pi bonding, make for much better and more effective solvents. Some mineral spirits contain a better mixture of hydrocarbons, for sure. The "Green" mineral spirits, odorless, generally do not. It probably differs from state to state, what kind of mineral spirits are generally available. Some states don't really restrict VOCs, and you can still even get nahptha (VM&P), which hasn't been available in colorado since 2022, if not even before that (I can't recall seeing it since I first started woodworking in 2020), which as I understand it is mostly the shorter chain hydrocarbons (5-6) including rings, which works really well as an oil solvent.

 

[Lary Sanders]

I was referring to Rubio Monocoat Rubio Monocoat It would be nice to know what "molecular bond" they are referring to.
Osmo wood wax is a similar competitor however I've not used it. Fine Woodworking recently did a review of "Hard wax- oil" finishes #311 Jul 2024.

Jon, an excellent explanation of aromatics. You are correct that the Pi system is crucial to their performance, reactivity and interaction with other species. As more and more rings and other branches are added it can get difficult to predict behavior. For example, graphite is made up of single sheets of benzene rings and therefore aromatic but not reactive or volatile. Aliphatic compounds can also have pi bonds for example saturated fats have no pi bonds (bad) and poly unsaturated fat have some. (better).

As you point out, there is a direct conflict between reducing VOC's (smaller molecules) and solvent performance. As we proceed to less volatile, less toxic, and environmentally beneficial compounds, the chemistry becomes more and more difficult. However, I believe that we have had significant success in meeting some of the chemistry changes when there is sufficient motivation. "Green" products have a long way to go.

 

[Michael Nathal]

I have used Osmo Polyx for 3-4 years now. I have used it on maybe 100 bowls, platters and hollow forms, and still have about 1/4 of the 750 ml can left. (I did transfer it to a Stop Loss bag.) I summarized my experiences back in the beginning of my use in a thread called "My Osmo Experiments". Compared to oil base poly, I find it is easier to apply, requires less coats, and is easier to repair. It also works on problem pieces where Danish Oil and oil base poly have caused me troubles. I use it primarily on display-only pieces, not utilitarian pieces. It is reasonably durable, but Youtube videos I have watched say that other hardwax oils are more protective against things like red wine stains.

 

[robo hippy]

Both Rubio Monocote and Osmo are slow drying. I do prefer the Rubio. They do have indoor and outdoor products. I have only used the indoor stuff, and get the clear. You won't find it in the big box stores. You can find Osmo at some flooring stores.

robo hippy

 

[Jon Rista]

I have used Osmo Polyx for 3-4 years now. I have used it on maybe 100 bowls, platters and hollow forms, and still have about 1/4 of the 750 ml can left. (I did transfer it to a Stop Loss bag.) I summarized my experiences back in the beginning of my use in a thread called "My Osmo Experiments". Compared to oil base poly, I find it is easier to apply, requires less coats, and is easier to repair. It also works on problem pieces where Danish Oil and oil base poly have caused me troubles. I use it primarily on display-only pieces, not utilitarian pieces. It is reasonably durable, but Youtube videos I have watched say that other hardwax oils are more protective against things like red wine stains.

How quickly does it dry for you? The stuff I used...I thought it was Polyx, but, it seems like there are varieties of that these days, so maybe I'm not as certain which variant. Anyway, it took a long time to dry. Which was the main reason I stopped using it. And by dry, I mean, the finish remained tacky for a long time, before I could even handle the piece. Poly takes a bit, but, you can usually handle poly within a day, usually less, and WOP much faster than that. The long, long drying time took the wind out of my Osmo experiments. I don't think I knew at the time, though, that there were different variations of it. Maybe I just had one that wasn't well suited to the task for turned items.

These days, I've become a fan of WOP, as it goes on pretty easy, dries reasonably quickly (still takes some time to fully cure, but its relatively fast compared to some other finishes), and the results are quite nice.

 

[John K Jordan]

How quickly does it dry for you?

I may have missed it, but one thing I don’t remember reading in “drying comparison discussions” is information about the environment where the piece is kept. For example, is the space climate controlled? What is the temperature, max, min, average of the areas being compared? It might matter to non-water based finishes but what is the humidity of the space? (It might matter if the wood is not completely dry).

I do know that when my shop was in a garage and an earlier non-conditioned shop the drying times seemed to vary with the seasons, but I admit to not recording data for comparison.

I plan on getting some of the finishes mentioned, some I don’t currently used, and would like to do some experiments. But it might help if others reported at least the temperature range in the shop. (My shop has central heat and air and stays relatively constant through the day. I do let it get a bit warmer in the summer and stay cooler in in the winder to reduce energy bills.)

Does anyone have experience with drying similar finishes in different environments?

JKJ

 

[Lary Sanders]

I would think the largest effects would be: Is the finish drying (i. e. solvent/water evaporation) or curing, the moisture content of the wood, and then the temperature of the wood. (For example, thinking here of considering the effect of radiative heating.) Then to a lesser extent the airflow, temperature, and humidity of the air. In roughly that order.

It would be nice if the manufactures provided some of that information as I'm sure they have some.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Does anyone have experience with drying similar finishes in different environments?

JKJ

Many of the instructions on finishes say, "Allow extra drying time in cool or humid environments" or something to that effect. That's about as specific as it gets.

 

[John K Jordan]

Many of the instructions on finishes say, "Allow extra drying time in cool or humid environments" or something to that effect. That's about as specific as it gets.

My internal scientist/researcher feels an experiment comin' on. First to buy some of that finish!

I've been happy for years with 6-10 coats of "danish" oil for most things that get use, shellac for some, straight beeswax for certain woods. (I have beehives and a lot of wax!) Don't mind trying something new.

JKJ

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

My internal scientist/researcher feels an experiment comin' on. First to buy some of that finish!

I've been happy for years with 6-10 coats of "danish" oil for most things that get use, shellac for some, straight beeswax for certain woods. (I have beehives and a lot of wax!) Don't mind trying something new.

JKJ

I've thought about getting bees, but I never considered using the wax. Duh!

 

[John K Jordan]

I've thought about getting bees, but I never considered using the wax. Duh!

I sometimes rub it on the surface while spinning, sometimes apply and warm with a small heat gun so it soaks into the wood. Especially good for ER bowls and spindles.

I once took a bunch of pieces (I have molds) to a woodturning club meeting and passed them out - many had never tried it before.
Also good for other things, threads, etc.

Mine is fresh from the bees, yellow in color, melted and filtered. For those interested, the white beeswax you can buy is sometimes chemically treated. I'm happy with the yellow. Come visit sometime and take some home.

JKJ

 

[robo hippy]

The thing about the Rubio Monocote is that most will use 2 coats of finish rather than the single one that is recommended. This can be topped off with a ceramic top coat that comes from the Auto industry. I have no experience with it either, it is rather spendy. So, time wise rather than 6 to 10 coats of Danish oil, 2 coats of Monocote and done.

robo hippy

 

[Holmes Anderson]

I should have googled it. Hard to understand why Tung Oil and Wax end up being so expensive.

What is Hardwax Oil? A Guide to the Natural Wood Preserver

Hardwax oil is a type of wood finish that can offer a multitude of benefits. Read on to discover exactly what it is and how it can be of use to you.

www.treatex.co.uk

Osmo PolyX contains sunflower oil, soya oil, thistle oil, carnauba wax, candelilla wax, paraffin, siccatives (drying agents), water-repellent additives, and dearomatized white spirits. It is liquid at room temp with a viscosity that allows it to be applied easily to large surfaces and dries in hours. The chemistry is probably more complex than heating wax and tung oil together on a stovetop. The cost is less than tung oil. Tung oil is very expensive.

 

[Jon Rista]

Osmo PolyX contains sunflower oil, soya oil, thistle oil, carnauba wax, candelilla wax, paraffin, siccatives (drying agents), water-repellent additives, and dearomatized white spirits. It is liquid at room temp with a viscosity that allows it to be applied easily to large surfaces and dries in hours. The chemistry is probably more complex than heating wax and tung oil together on a stovetop. The cost is less than tung oil. Tung oil is very expensive.

Interesting! I assume those seed oils are probably purified, so its just the oils (no proteins)? I'm not surprised its a more complex mix, though, I think how these things dry and cure is a part of what factors into their durability (they seem to be quite durable on flooring, over many, many years...)

 

[Bill Alston]

Osmo PolyX contains sunflower oil, soya oil, thistle oil, carnauba wax, candelilla wax, paraffin, siccatives (drying agents), water-repellent additives, and dearomatized white spirits. It is liquid at room temp with a viscosity that allows it to be applied easily to large surfaces and dries in hours. The chemistry is probably more complex than heating wax and tung oil together on a stovetop. The cost is less than tung oil. Tung oil is very expensive.

Tung Oil doesn’t seem that expensive over here. How much are you paying per Litre in the US?

Pure Tung Oil from Amazon = £20.84 L
Osmo Polyx from Amazon = £42.57 L

 

[Jon Rista]

Tung Oil doesn’t seem that expensive over here. How much are you paying per Litre in the US?

Pure Tung Oil from Amazon = £20.84 L
Osmo Polyx from Amazon = £42.57 L

View attachment 68722

View attachment 68723

Remember that you also need the wax, and you need the spirits or some kind of solvent. If you were to actually make a liter yourself, what would the cost of ALL the materials be (plus, if you throw in the time cost to actually mix it, your labor, at say minimum wage...) How much carnauba would you need to make an effective hardwax oil? A pound of it over here in the US is almost $30...

 

[Bill Alston]

From what I’ve read, Tung oil is the most expensive component so I think the quoted figures give a good illustration. Bees wax is cheap and the amount of Carnauba in a litre probably isn’t that high. Spirits are also cheap compared to oil.
So, how much are you paying for Tung Oil over there?

 

[Brian Gustin]

From what I’ve read, Tung oil is the most expensive component so I think the quoted figures give a good illustration. Bees wax is cheap and the amount of Carnauba in a litre probably isn’t that high. Spirits are also cheap compared to oil.
So, how much are you paying for Tung Oil over there?

Looks to run about $30 to $40 a quart (.943 L) That's in USD....

 

[Mark Jundanian]

How quickly does it dry for you? The stuff I used...I thought it was Polyx, but, it seems like there are varieties of that these days, so maybe I'm not as certain which variant. Anyway, it took a long time to dry. Which was the main reason I stopped using it. And by dry, I mean, the finish remained tacky for a long time, before I could even handle the piece.

I've used Osmo Polyx-Oil (satin) on several turnings (and some test pieces). For me it's dry to the touch in several hours and I can apply a second (and final) coat after 12 hours. Full cure, i.e. no detectable odor, takes 3 to 4 weeks.

Environment is a basement work shop with as needed space heater.

Note, I apply very, very little of the product to the wood. I use a white non woven pad, and drizzle a little Osmo on the pad with the stir stick. I wonder if you may have applied heavier coats?

 

[Michael Nathal]

My standard approach for Osmo Polyx is to wipe on with white Scotchbrite pad, wait 5 minutes or so, and remove excess with a cotton rag. Wait overnight and apply a second coat. Wait about a week and buff with Vonax compound. My shop is in my basement, (heated in winter and AC in summer) and I have not noticed much if any differences from summer through winter.