gouges, scrapers, etc.

[Bill Boehme]

Apparently there is something wrong with my not driving distance to meet. Well bully for them, that's a choice they make. I choose not to burn diesel, spend that money and put wear and tear on my truck for that. And if other maembers are of the same mind as you in putting me down for not driving distance to meet then I likely wouldn't want to associate with them to begin with

No, my comment was to let you know that you wouldn't have to spend $100 to attend a woodturning club meeting. I can understand if driving 70 miles is not something that you are interested in doing. My post was for information only.

I have been turning for over 40 years although I've taken a long break from it. Folks with your talent generally don't intend offense but they care not if they do, they just fail to consider how they present ideas and thoughts and how their discourse may be received. It is a special talent reserved for the elite.

I think that you might be reading too much into forum posts by assuming the other person's intent. Our main rule here is to be civil and treat one another as equals. That's one of the reasons why we require members to use their real name as their username and also use their location. Our members range from brand new turners to long-time moss-back professionals.

 

[Glenn Phipps]

Hi Al.....

This comment was probably intended for me, because I am the one who constantly promotes self-reliance and learning on an individual basis. Al, you are likely very correct for the great majority of new turners. Most people won't benefit from attempting to be self-taught......and, of those who are, the failure rate is likely extremely high. Having said that, I suppose I must acknowledge that the very few turners who are self-taught, and are reaching high levels of success with it, might have initially prevented that success, if they had listened to others, and pursued their interests with all the external influence for learning that are the common recommendation.

Bottom line is.......only a very few can benefit from being self-taught.......and, they should always be encouraged to seek their own paths.....if that is their intentions.

I am one of those turners who considers myself mostly self-taught......and, I can guarantee that just about everything I do on a lathe is very much out of the mainstream thought. I would not go back and change anything......even though, I probably did spend excessive amounts of time learning some things that could have been learned in a class. Because of the path I took, I feel I have learned other additional things that are definitely not common knowledge.....and these things are what make my turning experience one of the greatest things in my life!

-----odie-----

Odie I feel you have spoken very well for us free thinkers that prefer to blaze our own trail while gleaning what we can from those we choose to seek direction from. I have been working wood all my life and feel I am fairly well experienced to know the properties of wood, in it's different patterns, qualities and varieties, manipulating wood while spinning with turning tools is another challenge I put myself to, borrowing from the knowledge I have, applied to a bit different method of crafting wooden pieces. Your work speaks volumes to how well you have learned turning...Thanks

 

[Doug Freeman]

I drive ~ 100 mi RT to meetings once a month, and about the same for "open turning" at our clubhouse once a week. But....it's a choice. I enjoy it and consider it worth the time and $. How fast someone progresses with turning, mentor or none, classes or none, etc., is very dependent on the person, especially in this day and time with so much available through the AAW, "zoom" demos, and other sources.

I joined the local turning club with the intent of learning a lot (~120 members) - I did learn some but quickly found I was helping others a lot more than they were helping me (not meant to be derogatory - my education in engineering and 40 yrs of experience with processes gave me a big advantage). Some folks can struggle to "get" things more than others regardless of the instruction method, ie in person, video etc.

 

[hockenbery]

This comment was probably intended for me, because I am the one who constantly promotes self-reliance and learning on an individual basis. Al, you are likely very correct for the great majority of new turners

It wasn’t meant for you. It applies to all self taught turners. I was self taught- had an inexperienced teacher got my first lathe around 1975. Learned to use the side ground gouge. got good enough doing hollow ball ornaments to be asked to demo them in 1994 by the recently formed Chesapeake Woodturners.
Then later that year I took a class with Liam O’Neil- probably the best turner I have seen
Really learned how to use the side ground gouge
Then next year I took a course with David Ellsworth began my adventure with hollowing and learned a pile of useful techniques.
Began using the Ellsworth grind.

The Chesapeake Woodturners and those two classes totally changed my woodturning life.

only a very few can benefit from being self-taught.......and, they should always be encouraged to seek their own paths.....i

Yes and it depends on many factors. Age is one. You know a class is a week or 3 days ….
No clue on whether self taught is 6 months or 20 years or longer. Lot of self taught never do more than mediocre work.
If they are happy - that’s fine for them. If they are continually disappointed in outcomes - the self taught isn’t working.

 

[robo hippy]

I had been turning about 2 years before we had a local club form. I learned far more in the first year attending club meetings than I did the previous 2 years on my own. Mostly it was being able to see some thing being done, then hope I remember it long enough so that when I next went out to the shop that I could experiment with it. There was not You Tube back then, or if it was, there was almost nothing on it. Now, there is a lot up on You Tube, but you have to pick and choose what you watch. Some people should not be putting videos up....

robo hippy

 

[Tom Gall]

Apparently there is something wrong with my not driving distance to meet. Well bully for them, that's a choice they make. I choose not to burn diesel, spend that money and put wear and tear on my truck for that. And if other maembers are of the same mind as you in putting me down for not driving distance to meet then I likely wouldn't want to associate with them to begin with

.....with an attitude like that it may be reciprocal.

You have a talent for presenting your thoughts in an obnoxious way.

I have been turning for over 40 years although I've taken a long break from it. Folks with your talent generally don't intend offense but they care not if they do, they just fail to consider how they present ideas and thoughts and how their discourse may be received. It is a special talent reserved for the elite.

Glenn, the folks you have responded to are only trying to be helpful. It is sometimes difficult to judge a person's demeanor and/or intent from the printed word, as in a forum situation. What I have gleaned from from your responses (perhaps incorrectly) is that you have a "chip")) on your shoulder!

I've been around woodturners in clubs, demonstrations, and more recently on forums, for over forty years. 99% of them have been friendly, helpful, giving, and very generous with their time - more so than people in most other mediums I have had contact with.

 

[Glenn Phipps]

I drive ~ 100 mi RT to meetings once a month, and about the same for "open turning" at our clubhouse once a week. But....it's a choice. I enjoy it and consider it worth the time and $. How fast someone progresses with turning, mentor or none, classes or none, etc., is very dependent on the person, especially in this day and time with so much available through the AAW, "zoom" demos, and other sources.

I joined the local turning club with the intent of learning a lot (~120 members) - I did learn some but quickly found I was helping others a lot more than they were helping me (not meant to be derogatory - my education in engineering and 40 yrs of experience with processes gave me a big advantage). Some folks can struggle to "get" things more than others regardless of the instruction method, ie in person, video etc.

For me it would be 140 mile RT You voice some of my , I started working with wood as a child and at 16 was employed by a custom cabinet shop where I apprenticed for two years until I graduated High school. ones life experience and mechanical aptitude play a huge role in turning. I dare say there are those who with no amount of instruction will ever "get it". The more I learn the more I realize how much there is to learn. I keep striving to avoid that accidental catch.

.....with an attitude like that it may be reciprocal.



Glenn, the folks you have responded to are only trying to be helpful. It is sometimes difficult to judge a person's demeanor and/or intent from the printed word, as in a forum situation. What I have gleaned from from your responses (perhaps incorrectly) is that you have a "chip")) on your shoulder!

I've been around woodturners in clubs, demonstrations, and more recently on forums, for over forty years. 99% of them have been friendly, helpful, giving, and very generous with their time - more so than people in most other mediums I have had contact with.

His language and word choice just hit me in a way that I found belittling, that was not pleasant for me. I'm generally not wrong on these things but in this case I may be, but I'm guessing I will never know for sure. Most all the folk on here I find helpful and accommodating and appreciate their input .

 

[Tim Tucker]

Glenn - I can assure you as a Native Texan, Aggie, and I come from a family of Santa Gertrudis and mixed run market cattle ranchers - that the folks that have commented here are truly just trying to help you. It is never possible to read the intent or emotion into a posted message. One of the things I have about text messages from my kids...I can't hear their voice to determine their mood...are the happy? Mad? Sad?... - you know what I mean. There are a lot of things that you cannot learn from YouTube, the internet in general - and even this forum - tho this is the best on-line resource for folks who want to be serious about their turning - abut have fun while doing it.
I tried doing it by myself - for a while....and became kind of stagnant. Plateaued.....But I found a club - It takes me about 1.5 hours to get to the club meetings, and like you...it is irksome with the price of diesel....I am confident that everyone here wants to see you successful and happy with your progress. I would ask you to just relax, take a deep breath and trust. No - hell it it ain't natural... I know. But - the wealth of knowledge here that is offered without anyone intending to make you feel taken down to - and I assure you I felt that way initially....because I did not understand that these folks were only trying to help me. It took a lot of self-examination, but I figured out that if several folks are advising me - and I have seen their work and admired it....I will be the one to benefit by trying not to read between the lines. There ain't nothin' there.
If I can help in any way - I will. Check you private messages.
T

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed down already. I find our new member's attitude a little disturbing. Everyone here is trying to help. His attitude towards one of our most valued members, master woodturner, great all-around guy: @hockenbery, really bothers me. One more uncivilized comment and this thread will be shut down for good. Lighten up.

 

[odie]

Odie I feel you have spoken very well for us free thinkers that prefer to blaze our own trail while gleaning what we can from those we choose to seek direction from. I have been working wood all my life and feel I am fairly well experienced to know the properties of wood, in it's different patterns, qualities and varieties, manipulating wood while spinning with turning tools is another challenge I put myself to, borrowing from the knowledge I have, applied to a bit different method of crafting wooden pieces. Your work speaks volumes to how well you have learned turning...Thanks

Glenn.....

My thoughts on the value of self-reliance in the learning process is not for everyone. In fact, it's something that very few can take advantage of.....because it involves a mindset that most do not have, and therefore cannot be successful with. Many will give up and quit, if they had to do a "Robinson Crusoe" with their lathe. A few might get by and never get as good as they had hoped. But then, there is that type of person whose creative instincts will drive him to overcome obstacles, and thrive on the challenges.

A point I'd like to make here, is those who wish to tackle the challenges on their own, should be allowed that freedom.....and, be encouraged in their quest...... not be told they won't be successful unless they follow the well-beaten paths of learning to turn. (This is something I call "herd think", and I know from past experience on this forum, that it greatly bothers some to hear that term.....but, I believe it is absolutely true, and correct to label the concept this way.)

Those who can be successful with self-reliance are those who will eventually find new methods of solving old problems......and, for those who do blaze their own trails, that is what makes our private little world go around!

-----odie-----

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

I have had a lot of help from the OVWG members in learning technique and skill. I could not have been self taught and made any progress. I also have an approx. one-hundred mile round trip every time I go to the Learning Center (I go every two weeks). I definitely understand that distance could be a problem for some members.

 

[Tim Tucker]

Glenn.....

My thoughts on the value of self-reliance in the learning process is not for everyone. In fact, it's something that very few can take advantage of.....because it involves a mindset that most do not have, and therefore cannot be successful with. Many will give up and quit, if they had to do a "Robinson Crusoe" with their lathe. A few might get by and never get as good as they had hoped. But then, there is that type of person whose creative instincts will drive him to overcome obstacles, and thrive on the challenges.

A point I'd like to make here, is those who wish to tackle the challenges on their own, should be allowed that freedom.....and, be encouraged in their quest...... not be told they won't be successful unless they follow the well-beaten paths of learning to turn. (This is something I call "herd think", and I know from past experience on this forum, that it greatly bothers some to hear that term.....but, I believe it is absolutely true, and correct to label the concept this way.)

Those who can be successful with self-reliance are those who will eventually find new methods of solving old problems......and, for those who do blaze their own trails, that is what makes our private little world go around!

-----odie-----

Well....I deeply respect your work and ideals Odie. And - you know that I fit the narrative of the rogue, or independent But - I would like to offer something here that I feel will help - hopefully - many folks:

Before one sets out on "The Road Less Traveled" as a woodturner.....it seems in the best interest of that person's success to gain a solid foundation of safety principles, and training on use of various tools for clean efficient cutting. As well - a general understanding of styles, and general ratios. ( The Golden Mean. Fibonacci, etc.) Once a person reaches a level of proficiency that THEY can determine they are comfortable with - maybe then is the time to "go it alone". OR....maybe a hybrid approach that keeps the person in touch with continuing education....that allows them to expand their OWN vision - without beholden to any perceived rule of aesthetics> I think of your finely crafted work along these lines. Clearly original, and independent, yet you also interface with us here and offer wisdom and opinion that I value. Just my thoughts - and I hope you find them as supplemental to yours - not oppositional.

 

[odie]

Well....I deeply respect your work and ideals Odie. And - you know that I fit the narrative of the rogue, or independent But - I would like to offer something here that I feel will help - hopefully - many folks:

Before one sets out on "The Road Less Traveled" as a woodturner.....it seems in the best interest of that person's success to gain a solid foundation of safety principles, and training on use of various tools for clean efficient cutting. As well - a general understanding of styles, and general ratios. ( The Golden Mean. Fibonacci, etc.) Once a person reaches a level of proficiency that THEY can determine they are comfortable with - maybe then is the time to "go it alone". OR....maybe a hybrid approach that keeps the person in touch with continuing education....that allows them to expand their OWN vision - without beholden to any perceived rule of aesthetics> I think of your finely crafted work along these lines. Clearly original, and independent, yet you also interface with us here and offer wisdom and opinion that I value. Just my thoughts - and I hope you find them as supplemental to yours - not oppositional.

Hi Tim.....

I see your input as neither supplemental, or oppositional......I see it as your opinion. I have mine, and you have yours, and we both are allowed to have them.

When I first found this forum, I had been completely on my own for 20+ years.....and, had not had the internet for more than a few. I did have a couple of books, and several early VHS tapes.....which contributed to my learning, but the foundations were experiences that came from failures, and solving them. When I first started turning, I was like everyone else, and had my problems. I wanted to have instruction. Life's circumstances didn't allow me to have any, or mentorship, or a club. I now want none of those things, because I have 20/20 hindsight into my own turning journey. I can clearly see the advantages I had in my own learning experience, because the discoveries I made probably would never had happened, if I did have the instruction I wanted back then.

The biggest single advantage I have as a result of my experiences, is to have completely eliminated the need for power sanding on the exteriors of my bowls......even for the driest, densest, most difficult of woods. (I still use power sanding on interiors of my bowls.) Eliminating power sanding would never have happened, if I were using the tools, and guided by what others may consider "common knowledge" for the basics of turning. (I call it "herd think".) Over the years, I literally have devised a hundred shop jigs, and homemade tools that I developed myself.....this is the "Robinson Crusoe" stuff of my journey that I spoke of before!

I am happy to have the input of others here on the AAW forum. I do a lot of contemplating and occasional experimenting because of it. I see this as a good thing, but am thankful this input comes to me now that I have developed a background of individual thought and knowledge based on hands on failures and personal solutions.

-----odie-----

 

[Glenn Phipps]

Hi Tim.....

I see your input as neither supplemental, or oppositional......I see it as your opinion. I have mine, and you have yours, and we both are allowed to have them.

When I first found this forum, I had been completely on my own for 20+ years.....and, had not had the internet for more than a few. I did have a couple of books, and several early VHS tapes.....which contributed to my learning, but the foundations were experiences that came from failures, and solving them. When I first started turning, I was like everyone else, and had my problems. I wanted to have instruction. Life's circumstances didn't allow me to have any, or mentorship, or a club. I now want none of those things, because I have 20/20 hindsight into my own turning journey. I can clearly see the advantages I had in my own learning experience, because the discoveries I made probably would never had happened, if I did have the instruction I wanted back then.

The biggest single advantage I have as a result of my experiences, is to have completely eliminated the need for power sanding on the exteriors of my bowls......even for the driest, densest, most difficult of woods. (I still use power sanding on interiors of my bowls.) Eliminating power sanding would never have happened, if I were using the tools, and guided by what others may consider "common knowledge" for the basics of turning. (I call it "herd think".) Over the years, I literally have devised a hundred shop jigs, and homemade tools that I developed myself.....this is the "Robinson Crusoe" stuff of my journey that I spoke of before!

I am happy to have the input of others here on the AAW forum. I do a lot of contemplating and occasional experimenting because of it. I see this as a good thing, but am thankful this input comes to me now that I have developed a background of individual thought and knowledge based on hands on failures and personal solutions.

-----odie-----

It seems there are many sheep a few shepherds but the lone wolf is always to be feared.

 

[Tim Tucker]

Odie -

Good points...
I think there is one element that has pushed me more into taking every class I can....Time. The time I have left. I want to learn as much - as fast as I can, in order to make the most progress. The compromise is that it does lessen some of the personal exploration. That - of course - requires a lot of time as well. Sometimes - depending on when we find woodturning....time is a more precious commodity.

 

[Glenn Phipps]

Odie -

Good points...
I think there is one element that has pushed me more into taking every class I can....Time. The time I have left. I want to learn as much - as fast as I can, in order to make the most progress. The compromise is that it does lessen some of the personal exploration. That - of course - requires a lot of time as well. Sometimes - depending on when we find woodturning....time is a more precious commodity.

Personal discovery builds character that following another can never impart.

 

[odie]

Odie -

Good points...
I think there is one element that has pushed me more into taking every class I can....Time. The time I have left. I want to learn as much - as fast as I can, in order to make the most progress. The compromise is that it does lessen some of the personal exploration. That - of course - requires a lot of time as well. Sometimes - depending on when we find woodturning....time is a more precious commodity.

Very true, Tim......

You are absolutely correct that I enjoyed the advantage of being much younger when I first started to learn wood-turning. I was a newbie turner at 33.....and now I am 73!

Personal discovery builds character that following another can never impart.

Also very true, Glenn.....

(If I could modify your statement just slightly, It would be as follows: Personal discovery provides opportunities that following another can never impart. Either way, I get it, and overall both of us are saying pretty much the same thing.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have a good day to both of you gentlemen.....

-----odie-----

 

[Tim Tucker]

Personal discovery builds character that following another can never impart.

Glenn....thinking about this - I would add that personal discovery need not preclude hands on learning from a mentor. It merely accelerates your reaching that point to where you can find your own style - with a lot less frustration as the kinds of things I try to learn are not about following anyone's style....But the actual tool handling proficiencies - and the kinds of tips and tricks that just save time, make us more time efficient, and keep us safe. After that - YOUR creativity is the product.

 

[Glenn Phipps]

Glenn....thinking about this - I would add that personal discovery need not preclude hands on learning from a mentor. It merely accelerates your reaching that point to where you can find your own style - with a lot less frustration as the kinds of things I try to learn are not about following anyone's style....But the actual tool handling proficiencies - and the kinds of tips and tricks that just save time, make us more time efficient, and keep us safe. After that - YOUR creativity is the product.

I have always sought out those who are more skilled and knowledgeable than am I for the very reasons you mention, economy in learning.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Very true, Tim......

You are absolutely correct that I enjoyed the advantage of being much younger when I first started to learn wood-turning. I was a newbie turner at 33.....and now I am 73!



Also very true, Glenn.....

(If I could modify your statement just slightly, It would be as follows: Personal discovery provides opportunities that following another can never impart. Either way, I get it, and overall both of us are saying pretty much the same thing.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have a good day to both of you gentlemen.....

-----odie-----

Odie I have not been doing this as long as you but have to say if I had not found a club early , about 2007, I could not have gotten this far and being a couple years your senior no time to waste. We all as you have said have divergent paths and we can only suggest and not force the issue of a path for others. I seem to be traveling down divergent paths and ever arrived at my "style" as some others I know have . Just the same getting where I am has been fun and yes there was a class or two in there.

And as usual the harder I try the behinder I get.