Got a free freezer... Now what?

[Odie]

odie has a good point about interior and exterior MC. Never thought of that. Find a turner in Phoenix and send the wood there with return postage. As for the scale, what do you do with the huge bowls like some of our members turn? Looking at over twelve inches in diameter? Curious.

Hello John......

You really don't need to weigh until after a bowl is first roughed out. I believe my scale goes up to 35lb, so it ought to handle pretty much anything most turners do......well, unless you're an Ed Moulthrup! The max I can turn is about 14" diameter realistically, on my 16" Woodfast.....and, I don't think any of my roughed bowls weighed over around 5lb, or so......

ko

 

[Mark Hepburn]

odie has a good point about interior and exterior MC. Never thought of that. Find a turner in Phoenix and send the wood there with return postage. As for the scale, what do you do with the huge bowls like some of our members turn? Looking at over twelve inches in diameter? Curious.

I have family in Phoenix. I'll get that address out to everyone right away.

🙂

Taylor makes several high quality scales that will go up to 22 lbs / 10 kg in increments of 1g. It's about $100 but also runs on batteries or household current. We use them here at work and they're quite good. Also, Salter makes some good, accurate scales for under $30. Most of them go a few pounds / kilos but accurate to .1 gm

 

[hockenbery]

I have family in Phoenix. I'll get that address out to everyone right away. 🙂 Taylor makes several high quality scales that will go up to 22 lbs / 10 kg in increments of 1g. It's about $100 but also runs on batteries or household current. We use them here at work and they're quite good. Also, Salter makes some good, accurate scales for under $30. Most of them go a few pounds / kilos but accurate to .1 gm

Mark,
You don't need accuracy for wood just consistency. A flea market baby scale will work fine.

Bowls are at equilibrium in their environment when they no longer lose weight.
That just requires the scale to read the same when there is no weight change.

At 70 F and 55% RH that will be 10.1 MC for the equilibrium moisture content

Al

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark,
You don't need accuracy for wood just consistency. A flea market baby scale will work fine.

Bowls are at equilibrium in their environment when they no longer lose weight.
That just requires the scale to read the same when there is no weight change.

At 70 F and 55% RH that will be 10.1 MC for the equilibrium moisture content

Al

Thanks Al. I'm making notes here. Gerald, Bill, Odie and Kelly concur about weighing so that's the direction for me for sure. I happen to have a very nice Taylor scale accurate to .1g so I'm going to use that.

But I understand, it really doesn't matter if the scale is off as long as it is consistently off.

 

[Odie]

But I understand, it really doesn't matter if the scale is off as long as it is consistently off.

That would be correct, Mark.

All you really need to establish is equilibrium, or that moisture content stabilization has occurred. If the scale is off, it doesn't matter, as long as it's giving a consistent weight from one weighing to another. I have check weights that I use every time I turn the scale on. If the check weights weigh the same each time, I know the scale is consistent with them. You don't need professional check weights to do this......several things like bolts and chunks of metal that you have laying around the shop will do. Weigh them and note the weight.....then use them each time you turn the scale on..........

If I remember correctly, the three check weights I use are 55g, 255g, and 745g.....doesn't matter what the weight is, as long as they weigh the same each time.

ko

 

[James Seyfried]

I have check weights that I use every time I turn the scale on. If the check weights weigh the same each time, I know the scale is consistent with them.

ko

That's a cool idea. Are they ever off? I would think that you could check less often and still be statistically confident that they were consistent. I'll have to give it a try and see how much mine deviates. If/when they are off do you calibrate them or just get a new scale?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

That would be correct, Mark.

All you really need to establish is equilibrium, or that moisture content stabilization has occurred. If the scale is off, it doesn't matter, as long as it's giving a consistent weight from one weighing to another. I have check weights that I use every time I turn the scale on. If the check weights weigh the same each time, I know the scale is consistent with them. You don't need professional check weights to do this......several things like bolts and chunks of metal that you have laying around the shop will do. Weigh them and note the weight.....then use them each time you turn the scale on..........

If I remember correctly, the three check weights I use are 55g, 255g, and 745g.....doesn't matter what the weight is, as long as they weigh the same each time.

ko

That's a good idea. A can of green beans or tuna or whatever as long it's the same can.

 

[Odie]

That's a cool idea. Are they ever off? I would think that you could check less often and still be statistically confident that they were consistent. I'll have to give it a try and see how much mine deviates. If/when they are off do you calibrate them or just get a new scale?

So far, so good, James......

My scale has always been consistent with the check weights. If it ever becomes erratic, I'd be tempted to just buy another scale. These digital scales are cheap, and seem to be accurate. Run a search on eBay for "postal scale", and you'll see they are a dime a dozen!

Mine does seem to lose "zero" occasionally....ie: does not return to zero after weighing something, but that is easily corrected by turning it off, and then back on again......not sure why it does that. Any ideas on that?

ko

note: a quick search turned up this one....only $17 and change with free shipping:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/11lb-5kg-50...790?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7a07d19e

 

[Bill Boehme]

odie has a good point about interior and exterior MC. Never thought of that. Find a turner in Phoenix and send the wood there with return postage. As for the scale, what do you do with the huge bowls like some of our members turn? Looking at over twelve inches in diameter? Curious.

Well, I have only one data point for a rough turned bowl that was too heavy for my digital scale. It was an 18 inch diameter box elder bowl rough turned to about 1½ inch wall thickness. I didn't start weighing it until about a week after it was rough turned and Anchorsealed. My digital scale goes up to 12 pounds so the first recorded weight was made with a spring scale so there is some room for error there. On day 6, I made the first measurement with the digital scale and the weight was 11½ pounds. I could have done the final turning at 90 days when the weight was 8½ pounds, but I waited another couple months during which time the weight loss was an additional 6 ounces. So, unless you are turning huge pieces, I don't think that weighing the piece is going to be a problem. Here is the plotted data for the box elder bowl:



Here is the finished bowl. The final wall thickness is about ⅞" and the final diameter is about 17½".



It was finished with walnut oil. Dry box elder really soaks up a lot of walnut oil.

 

[John Torchick]

Bill, your bowl is my idea of a bowl dedicated to a daily dose of ice cream. It takes time for wood to lose moisture. I'm at the age where I don't even buy green bananas! 😛

 

[Odie]

The shop is pretty dusty, so I'm now enclosing the scale in a plastic container with the check weights, cleaning tool, and plug. This set-up is working well for me. The calculator is what I use to convert grams to ounces for my record keeping......I use grams for all weights while seasoning, but also use ounces for online sales.

ko

 

[John Torchick]

Good idea for the scale, odie. My shop/basement was open for several years. I finally closed off one part for a shop but need to get ambitious and clean up about 8 years of accumulated sawdust. I keep waiting for the shop gremlins but they don't stop here. 😱

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Kelly that is a good thought on check weights . Should have thought of that with my minors in chemistry. You can also get a scale for about 12 at Harbor Freight

 

[KellyDunn]

Folks, I never said I weigh my wood. I did that 25 years ago. All that does is give you equilibrium of the general moisture content of the air. Now this has been done here before but I will say it again. The idea of a kiln is to get out bound cellular moisture. I live in Hawaii. A wet place in Hawaii. If one of my bowls I dried that was on the shelf I finish and sent to Colorado it goes oval and S shaped. If I pop it back in the kiln and do so during finishing it goes kind of wonky in Hi moisture but stays round in Colorado cause I created that environment in the kiln. At 6% I have gotten the bound moisture out. But ambient can come back up to more than 16% here. What it does for you is where you live. A scale? If it works for you and the piece stays with you when finished. But garbage. And I mean garbage for production turning of bowls you want to have your name on the bottom of and have it there with pride. If that piece travels it will not stay round even slightly.
Folks in very dry areas like Bill Ooms have the opposite of what I have. It dries to fast and you need to slow that down. You can find mini lignos on ebay now and again. You dont care? Hey, a scale works fine. But not for this boy. But we are all adults here. You decide what works for you. But remember, bound cellular moisture.

 

[hockenbery]

For those using weight it is important to control or know the relative humidity, RH, and temperature of the drying room.
When bowls reach EMC, equilibrium moisture content, that MC, moisture is a function of the temperature and RH of the environment.
Maintain your drying room at 30% RH and a 100 degrees and EMC will be 6% MC.
( sort of what the kilns do...)

I maintain my drying room a RH OF 45-50%. The temp varies but is about 80 most of the time. My bowls will get to 8-9% RH.

This web site has a nice formula you can use and also a table of MC values.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html

I use a mini ligno. If I want to return a bowl I check the tenon area with the pins.
If it Mr. Ligno says 8-9 the bowl is as dry as it is going to get for me....

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Kelly, that is very good to know especially for situations like yours where your RH is high and your pieces may go to extremely dry areas. I looked at the chart that Al referenced and it says that for my location I can expect to achieve an EMC of about 6% for most air dried wood in the summer. Since I mainly turn mesquite, EMC isn't a problem. For other types of wood, I'm probably OK if I every make something that will outside of the DFW area.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

For those using weight it is important to control or know the relative humidity, RH, and temperature of the drying room.
When bowls reach EMC, equilibrium moisture content, that MC, moisture is a function of the temperature and RH of the environment.
Maintain your drying room at 30% RH and a 100 degrees and EMC will be 6% MC.
( sort of what the kilns do...)

I maintain my drying room a RH OF 45-50%. The temp varies but is about 80 most of the time. My bowls will get to 8-9% RH.

This web site has a nice formula you can use and also a table of MC values.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html

I use a mini ligno. If I want to return a bowl I check the tenon area with the pins.
If it Mr. Ligno says 8-9 the bowl is as dry as it is going to get for me....

Al

But as Kelly pointed out EMC is only relative to the area it is taken in (your shop) and changes even there so wood even KD can gain or lose moisture content causing wood movement, which also changes with species. Kiln dried does move a little less, but still moves. The overall point is that for most of us it is not a significant factor when a piece is twice turned.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Two words: 95 degrees F and 86% RH.

Okay, that's more than two words. Instead of a kiln, I'll start soaking my work in the tub to get it to equilibrium.

🙂


Kelly, thanks very much for your post. You too Al and Gerald. Frankly, as a still newbie I've got tons to learn. I've just been roughing out mostly to about 1/2 - 1" depending on size and waiting a couple of months. My intent is to have a more clear understanding of this subject and this discussion has been very helpful.

Mark

 

[Odie]

The term "bound cellular moisture" is one of those "herd think" terms which is questionable. In my opinion, it's unlikely there is any such thing......because if an old refrigerator with holes drilled in it, and a low wattage bulb is enough to remove it, then it really isn't "bound" at all. It's simply doing what commercial kilns, and very dry climates do.....removing moisture with an increase of temperature. Most commercial lumber here has a MC of 8-10%.....I've checked the studs in my shop, and they are now 12%.....this is exactly what stabilization of most bowl blanks which have been air dried will bring the MC to.

Yes, it does depend on where your shop is, and I'd give my right arm to be in a high tourist traffic area, such as Kelly Dunn is in......but, I wouldn't want to deal with the problems he has to deal with. Using his example, it's very problematic that a roughed bowl with a 6% MC can revert back to 16%.....wow, that's close to the MC where mildew will form! I just wouldn't want to deal with that, and am thankful I live in MT.

My bowls have been sold in all four corners of the lower 48.....and to my knowledge, there has never been a problem. It would be interesting to see what one of them would do in a climate, such as in Hawaii........

Most people use alternative methods of drying, do so to speed things up, not as a necessary step in producing roughed bowls worthy of completing. I can certainly understand the situation that Kelly Dunn is in......in his case, and from the heartfelt vibes I'm getting from his post......it's probably a necessity for his turning.....a necessary step which isn't a requirement for very many other turners.

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Two words: 95 degrees F and 86% RH. Okay, that's more than two words. Instead of a kiln, I'll start soaking my work in the tub to get it to equilibrium. 🙂 Kelly, thanks very much for your post. You too Al and Gerald. Frankly, as a still newbie I've got tons to learn. I've just been roughing out mostly to about 1/2 - 1" depending on size and waiting a couple of months. My intent is to have a more clear understanding of this subject and this discussion has been very helpful. Mark

Mark,
Another thought is to turn green to final shape with walls at 3/16" or less
Most of my work is hollow forms and natural edge bowls.
My drying process is to rinse them with water, put them in a box for a day with the flaps closed, open the box flaps for a day, on the shelf for a day, sand and finish.

The rinsing and the box keep the endgrain walls from drying out way ahead of the face grain walls.

Wood shrinkage us one of the great things about working with green wood. It also one of the great frustrations.
Have fun,
Al

 

[hockenbery]

The term "bound cellular moisture" is one of those "herd think" terms which is questionable. In my opinion, it's unlikely there is any such thing...... ko

"Bound water" - is sort more of a science term. Woodturners did not invent it.
🙂 I have never seen bound water. I believe it exists. 🙂


A Google for "bound water wood" popped up this University of California description


http://ucanr.edu/sites/woodybiomass/newsletters/hardwood_handbook36228.pdf

 

[Odie]

"Bound water" - is sort more of a science term. Woodturners did not invent it.
🙂 I have never seen bound water. I believe it exists. 🙂


A Google for "bound water wood" popped up this University of California description


http://ucanr.edu/sites/woodybiomass/newsletters/hardwood_handbook36228.pdf

Al.......sure, I'd agree with that.....but

He said bound cellular moisture.....which implies something else entirely........🙂

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Al.......sure, I'd agree with that.....but He said bound cellular moisture.....which implies something else entirely........🙂 ko

Top of page two has a definition of bound water.

 

[Odie]

Top of page two has a definition of bound water.

He said bound cellular moisture.....which implies something else entirely........

ko

 

[hockenbery]

He said bound cellular moisture.....which implies something else entirely........ ko

What part of the paper did you read? Top of page two

"Bound water - Water molecules that penetrate the cell walls and chemically bound to cellulose molecules. It is the removal of bound water that causes shrinking of wood."

 

[Bill Boehme]

The term "bound cellular moisture" is one of those "herd think" terms which is questionable. In my opinion, it's unlikely there is any such thing....

You might remember the story from Sir Francis Bacon concerning the great debate amongst a group of English Gentlemen regarding the number of teeth in a horse's mouth. The debate raged on for a couple weeks with all sorts of intuition, speculation, opinion, and circular reasoning applied to arrive at an authoritative conclusion ... the result being:

.... and wonderful and ponderous erudition such as was never before heard of in this region was made manifest. At the beginning of the fourteenth day, a youthful friar of goodly bearing asked his learned superiors for permission to add a word, and straightway, to the wonderment of the disputants, whose deep wisdom he sore vexed, he beseeched them to unbend in a manner coarse and unheard-of and to look in the open mouth of a horse and find answer to their questionings. At this, their dignity being grievously hurt, they waxed exceeding wroth; and, joining in a mighty uproar, they flew upon him and smote him, hip and thigh, and cast him out forthwith. For, said they, surely Satan hath tempted this bold neophyte to declare unholy and unheard-of ways of finding truth, contrary to all the teachings of the fathers. After many days more of grievous strife, the dove of peace sat on the assembly, and they as one man declaring the problem to be an everlasting mystery because of a grievous dearth of historical and theological evidence thereof, so ordered the same writ down.
​

Your disparaging use of the word "herd" in this case apparently is referring to scientists at the USDA Forest Products Laboratory. I suspect that their source of information was to be so brazen as to follow the suggestion made by the young friar.

Are you just nit picking words? It's not too difficult to figure out what was meant even if the terminology wasn't 100% precise. Where do you think that the term Equilibrium Moisture Content comes from anyway?

HINT: See Al's post directly above for the answer.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark,
Another thought is to turn green to final shape with walls at 3/16" or less
Most of my work is hollow forms and natural edge bowls.
My drying process is to rinse them with water, put them in a box for a day with the flaps closed, open the box flaps for a day, on the shelf for a day, sand and finish.

The rinsing and the box keep the endgrain walls from drying out way ahead of the face grain walls.

Wood shrinkage us one of the great things about working with green wood. It also one of the great frustrations.
Have fun,
Al

Al, you don't find that, at that thickness, your forms don't get distorted? Do you attribute that to the soaking primarily? That's a pretty simple method indeed.

 

[hockenbery]

Al, you don't find that, at that thickness, your forms don't get distorted? Do you attribute that to the soaking primarily? That's a pretty simple method indeed.

They move for sure. The 3/16 walls let them move without cracking.

If I line up the grain the movement is symmetrical.
The hollow forms with face grain openings get a lovely oval shape. Not "distorted" but "elegantly shaped"
The oval is noticeable looking from the top down. The oval feels good when you hold it.
All the side views appear round and the curve from rim to bottom does not tend to distort.
Excuse the poor photo but form below is Osage orange (boDark for Bill & hue and maybe you) an example.
It is about 10 by 9.5 it doesn't bother me. I think people eyes make it look round more often than oval.
I do have a few larger forms that look obviously oval.

The natural edge bowls benefit from a little more oval drying.
I start with a blank 2-4" longer than wide and turn the bowls quite open

I do a lot of crotch NE bowls. They also have symmetrical, even movement about the "Y" parts of the crotch.
The cool thing with these bowls is that when turned with a round bottom the center of the crotch move up a bit making a nice little concave base when they dry.

If I want a round bowl, I will turn it twice.
I rarely do twice turned bowls just rather do the hollow forms.
And turning natural edge bowls is just too much fun not to do them once in a while.

 

[Odie]

Your disparaging use of the word "herd" in this case apparently is referring to scientists at the USDA Forest Products Laboratory. I suspect that their source of information was to be so brazen as to follow the suggestion made by the young friar.

Well Bill.....you should get used to the word "herd", because I intend to use it wherever it applies......and there is an abundance of places where "the herd" leads potential turners to places where it's actually detrimental to progress. I suppose it's better to say that it leads to limited progress up to a point where ever increasing knowledge is severely hindered.

The word "herd" is not intended to be disparaging at all......it is intended to point to how "herd think" is a flaw in the thought process, and is limiting factor to many who pursue woodturning, and believe in accepted practices without considering alternative points of view. Not to mention some theories that are outside of mainstream thought. Sometimes, it's those who dare to think in new directions, are the ones who end up being on the innovative cutting edge......

Somehow, I get the idea that many here are thinking "bound cellular moisture" and moisture that can be removed, either by air drying, or various kinds of applying heat, are not the same thing. (In the case of Kelly Dunn, I think he has a valid point about why he must rely on his homemade kiln, but he, and his environment are mostly the exception.) You can find "scientific" study to show completely opposites, and to believe in one study, even if the great majority has consensus, without recognizing potential flaws in that thought, is exactly what causes problems in accepting theory as proof......until someone comes along and uses unaccepted theory to realize, or improve.......results! 😀

Results......are the only thing that count! 😎

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Kelly,
Nice to know you now believe in bound water and are following the herd a little more!

 

[Odie]

Kelly,
Nice to know you now believe in bound water and are following the herd a little more!

I have always believed in the general theoretical application......the difference is how it's labeled, and what can be done with it.

Al.......sure, I'd agree with that.....but

He said bound cellular moisture.....which implies something else entirely........🙂

ko

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Kelly,

I cannot reconcile your posts with the contents of the article and the definition of moisture. http://ucanr.edu/sites/woodybiomass/newsletters/hardwood_handbook36228.pdf

Moisture —noun condensed or diffused liquid, especially water: moisture in the air. a small quantity of liquid, especially water; enough liquid to moisten.

It is quite simple and in no way controversial that fresh cut wood has Bound water and Free water.
Free water is between the cells and sprays out when turned. Bound water has a chemical bond to molecules in the cell.

Moisture is one way to describe this water.

A quote from the above
"Bound water movement through wood is an example of diffusion where the water molecules move from wetter wood to drier wood. The molecules jump from cellulose molecule to cellulose molecule within the cell walls and between adjacent cell walls."


Al

 

[Odie]

Kelly,

I cannot reconcile your posts with the contents of the article and the definition of moisture. http://ucanr.edu/sites/woodybiomass/newsletters/hardwood_handbook36228.pdf

Moisture —noun condensed or diffused liquid, especially water: moisture in the air. a small quantity of liquid, especially water; enough liquid to moisten.

It is quite simple and in no way controversial that fresh cut wood has Bound water and Free water.
Free water is between the cells and sprays out when turned. Bound water has a chemical bond to molecules in the cell.

Moisture is one way to describe this water.

A quote from the above
"Bound water movement through wood is an example of diffusion where the water molecules move from wetter wood to drier wood. The molecules jump from cellulose molecule to cellulose molecule within the cell walls and between adjacent cell walls."


Al

You know, Al.......maybe I'm just not good enough to explain what I'm talking about, but you and I are not on the same page with this.....

It's ok......I'm used to it. I'm always seeing things in a different perspective, and having others reject my beliefs.

In the end.....it doesn't really matter, because results are the only thing that count......and, I'm feeling satisfied with mine.

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

The term "bound cellular moisture" is one of those "herd think" terms which is questionable. In my opinion, it's unlikely there is any such thing......because if an old refrigerator with holes drilled in it, and a low wattage bulb is enough to remove it, then it really isn't "bound" at all.....

The word "bound" seems to be the source of confusion here. The terminology refers to a typically weak chemical bond in what is known as "water of hydration" meaning that the nature of the chemical isn't altered by either addition or removal of water in this chemical bond. In wood, the bond is mainly due to Van der Waals forces (basically a weak dipole-dipole type bond). This is what differentiates it from the free water in wood. The term doesn't mean that it is forever permanently bound to the wood.

 

[James Seyfried]

The word "bound" seems to be the source of confusion here.

Go figure...and I thought the confusion was the implied difference between water and moisture. If you heard that from the herd, I suppose you are correct and that would be "herd think". 🙂

I get what Al explained and what Kelly explained. I did look it up to see what the herd (Universities and scientists) had to say about it. I still don’t know what “……..which implies something else entirely†could possibly be. Odie, what do you think the herd thinks bound cellular moisture implies? I’m just curious and know it is just results that matter.

Here is something that I found interesting. Yesterday I was checking out some bowls I roughed out. I have a few larger oak ones. They are at about 23% mc according to my meter. It has a A and B range and I usually don’t change the range for wood type, so it might not be as accurate as it could be. I use a tenon and put the pins in that. I also write the weight on it; I use a small postal scale. One bowl has a knot on the tenon from a limb. I tested by the knot and the mc was 46%. There was also a small section of sapwood and it had 18% mc. The other heartwood was approximately 23% mc. I could see sapwood loosing moisture (or water) quicker and perhaps even having less moisture. But, I never thought about knots having a lot more moisture. I have heard the herd say that knots loose moisture/water at different rates than other parts and that is why they crack. Perhaps part of that is that knots have more moisture/water. Maybe that’s not so, what have you heard?

 

[hockenbery]

I never thought about knots having a lot more moisture. I have heard the herd say that knots loose moisture/water at different rates than other parts and that is why they crack. Perhaps part of that is that knots have more moisture/water. Maybe that’s not so, what have you heard?

At couple of things happen with knots.

The grain is in a different direction some where in the vicinity of 90 degrees to the trunk grain. Usually about 70 degrees.
The knot want to shrink around itself but the surrounding wood wants to shrink around the center of the tree.
This is what I worry about the most....


Because of the different grain orientation the knot will have different long grain length than wood next to it in the vessel wall.
So the knot will loose moisture at a different rate.

Often knots are much denser than the surrounding wood and looses moisture at a different rate.
And some knots have a lot of resins which slows the drying.

There are probably a couple of other issues too like how the knot is or isn't connected to the surrounding wood.

Knots don't always play nice with the rest of the vessel. I have them in quite a few of my hollow forms.
The orientation of the grain and different density can affect the turning.
Sharp tools light cuts.

Al

 

[Gretch Flo]

I use the Wagner pinless moisture detector-It's fun to run the sensor at different parts of the wood. Crotch figure has alot more moisture than surrounding wood. (as do knots), sap wood diff from heart wood. Dried punky wood less. As the bowl dries there is still a differential but eventually stabilizes. Of course if there are thickened sections of the bowl, it is detected too. If you put your finger behind the wood being tested the moisture goes way up!!!!!! Knowing all this I run the detector over the same areas looking for stabilization. Gretch

 

[Hu Lowery]

I think we are nearing a breakthrough!(just not sure what we are breaking into)

Go figure...and I thought the confusion was the implied difference between water and moisture. If you heard that from the herd, I suppose you are correct and that would be "herd think". 🙂

I get what Al explained and what Kelly explained. I did look it up to see what the herd (Universities and scientists) had to say about it. I still don’t know what “……..which implies something else entirely†could possibly be. Odie, what do you think the herd thinks bound cellular moisture implies? I’m just curious and know it is just results that matter.

Here is something that I found interesting. Yesterday I was checking out some bowls I roughed out. I have a few larger oak ones. They are at about 23% mc according to my meter. It has a A and B range and I usually don’t change the range for wood type, so it might not be as accurate as it could be. I use a tenon and put the pins in that. I also write the weight on it; I use a small postal scale. One bowl has a knot on the tenon from a limb. I tested by the knot and the mc was 46%. There was also a small section of sapwood and it had 18% mc. The other heartwood was approximately 23% mc. I could see sapwood loosing moisture (or water) quicker and perhaps even having less moisture. But, I never thought about knots having a lot more moisture. I have heard the herd say that knots loose moisture/water at different rates than other parts and that is why they crack. Perhaps part of that is that knots have more moisture/water. Maybe that’s not so, what have you heard?

James,

I think we'uns, the herd, are nearing a breakthrough! It is well known that the tie that binds is a knot. Just logical that there should be more bound water where there is a knot to keep it bound!

Tie a knot in a rope or a piece of cloth and what is the last part to dry? The part with the knot binding the water in. This is all very simple if we look at it logically. Looking at it illogically, I had always assumed that knots were dead wood in the living wood and would have less moisture. Seemed like the other wood moved when it dried, the knot didn't move, therefore the knot got loose.

I am more confused than ever and not even sure I am now confused on a higher level, this thread is getting all my thinking tied in knots. This is all Mark's fault, stirring the pot starting a thread about a free freezer. He should'a known where this would end up!

Hu

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... But, I never thought about knots having a lot more moisture. I have heard the herd say that knots loose moisture/water at different rates than other parts and that is why they crack. Perhaps part of that is that knots have more moisture/water. Maybe that’s not so, what have you heard?

Seems like I recall that the "raw" readings from a "moisture" meter, in order to reflect the true amount of "water" need to be adjusted to take into account the density of the wood being tested. If you compare raw readings from sapwood and from the pith then it may just be nothing more than an apples to oranges comparison. Also, consider that shrinkage is considerably different in sapwood and pith wood. But we're dealing with a non-homogeneous material full of unique characteristics from one piece to another and spitting in the wind over-analyzing things. We definitely benefit by underswtanding the characteristics of wood, but there's practical application that is more important in the end.

... and, what is the difference between moisture and water? 🙄

 

[James Seyfried]

...We definitely benefit by underswtanding the characteristics of wood, but there's practical application that is more important in the end.

I agree. I weigh and check rough outs with a moisture meter, but usually they have stopped changing weight long before I get around to finishing them.

... and, what is the difference between moisture and water? 🙄

I have no idea, I was just making sure I wasn't implying something else entirely. 🙄