Good Mentoring

[Dave Fritz]

When I was teaching fly casting a woman told me, men teachers take the rod and show you how while women teachers let you cast and make corrections. I'm not sure you can generalize man vs woman but I think the message it true. A good mentor watches, makes corrections and lets the student do the work. On the other hand I've seen too many take the tool make the cut themselves and say, "Just like that". That's like watching a video, only the eyes and ears are in play. We know turning is about feel, finding the sweet spot. I think a lot of really good turners take that last clean cut for granted, their muscle memory is in place while a new person has no idea. Interested in other's thoughts.

 

[Curt Fuller]

I think you're absolutely right Dave. Teaching or mentoring is a separate gift that seldom is paired with the skill that's being taught. A good mentor needs to be able to suppress that natural tendency to show off their own skills and get down to the level of their student. Kip Christensen came to our club last fall and gave a demonstration on what he called "The scales and chords of woodturning", comparing learning to turn to learning to play a musical instrument. It was basically repeating the same cut over and over until the wood was gone. Not how to make something, just practicing how to make the cut until it becomes that muscle memory you talk about. The common denominator I see in almost all the questions that get asked by new turners is that the answer is "practice".

 

[Donna Banfield]

I agree, it takes a special skill set to make a good woodturning teacher or mentor. And they are not necessarily the best or most well-known woodturners. You need to have the ability to take what you know, and convey it to another person, in a language they understand. That requires the ability to adapt YOUR teaching methods, sometimes on the fly, to the student's learning methods coupled with the ability to carefully observe the student's body movements and methods, to help them find a better body movement or tool presentation. When THEY find the sweet spot, they're more likely to search for it again, hence commencement of muscle memory.

There are only two occasions I will take the tool from the student: if they are taking a video of the cut, or tool presentation on their phone, and want to be able to refresh their recollection when they're alone in their shop (always at their request), or if while turning at any point, they get a catch that sends the blank flying, and it's impossible to remount safely. If the student really needed to go home with a bowl after the session (and I determine that before we begin), I will grab another blank and get them to the point things went astray. They take over and keep going from that point forward.

 

[Richard Coers]

I find women to be better students too. I can tell a guy how to make a cut, then I put my hand on the handle of the gouge and even guide him. But as soon as I turn my back he is cutting the way he did in his shop. Just the opposite for women. Maybe I've just taught stubborn guys!

 

[hockenbery]

One thing I do frequently when beginning students are having trouble - I grip the end of the tool handle with my thumb and a couple of fingers while they are making the cut.. I can then keep bevel on the wood, roll the tool, and adjust depth of cut while the student makes the cut. When the tool is moving correctly my fingers just go along for the ride. The student gets to feel the cut and one pass with assistance is usually enough and then I watch them repeat the cut several times. It also makes the student relax their grip.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

I find it really helpful to see 1) what I am supposed to do and 2) what the outcome should look like before I try it. I find it a lot faster and less frustrating than the successive approximation approach with ongoing correction. Good teaches help a lot by telling you what to watch-- eg watch how my hips move not where the tip of the tool is.

Different people learn very differently and no one-size-fits-all teacher ever becomes a great teacher. I will fess up to being a terrible teacher, so don't do what I do!

 

[Tom De Winter]

I find women to be better students too. I can tell a guy how to make a cut, then I put my hand on the handle of the gouge and even guide him. But as soon as I turn my back he is cutting the way he did in his shop. Just the opposite for women. Maybe I've just taught stubborn guys!

I find the same thing teaching pistol and rifle classes.

 

[R Henrickson]

I find women to be better students too. I can tell a guy how to make a cut, then I put my hand on the handle of the gouge and even guide him. But as soon as I turn my back he is cutting the way he did in his shop. Just the opposite for women. Maybe I've just taught stubborn guys!

Indeed. I've been an assistant for a number of turning classes at the Folk School. The few women who have been in the classes would listen and follow advice, and ask for further advice if they were unsure. Most men in the classes have been responsive students, but there is usually at least one who is back to what he was doing as soon as you turn away from helping them, and may tell you that he is doing what you said.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Being only a few years into this I've recently noticed that I still need to go back to my local experienced expert/friend and ask dumb questions about things I'm sure he told me early on. It's important to have someone that you can feel comfortable asking questions about things you should know but don't. Easy to assume that folks remember ALL the little things they were told or even practiced early on and then forget and then bad habits develop that are hard to undo. I think watching someone else turn helps more only after a lot of hours on your own trying, failing and practicing. I can watch videos now that are much more help than they would have been early on.

 

[hockenbery]

I've recently noticed that I still need to go back to my local experienced expert/friend and ask dumb questions about things I'm sure he told me early on.

That is a common phenomenon.

We all learn things when we are ready to learn them. You have to have the prerequisite to build on as well as being open to moving in that particular direction.

Every beginning woodturning class I have taught the skills of individual students a so varied and diverse. Most have done some wood working or carving have done some turning. So many have extraordinary knowledge and skills relevant to woodturning.

 

[Larry Copas]

Years ago my nephew asked me to teach him how to stick arc weld. I showed him how to strike an arc and maintain it. He is a little slow and was constantly freezing the rod. I was getting frustrated and finally got behind him. Wrapped my arms around his body and grabbed the torch on top of his hands. Struck an arc and we were off to the races.

Moving on to wood turning I have put my hands on top of the students hands and guide them through the cut. As the cut progresses I tell them what is happening. Seems to work well.

 

[Robert D Evans]

I was taught that the fundamentals of teaching were:
Tell them how to do it.
Show them how to do it.
Let them do it.

Now figuring out how to get the student to listen, watch and produce is a whole other art form.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I have told this story before, I love it, so I will tell it again. Bill Jones was asked how he got so good at the lathe. He said: why?! You just stand in front of it! Bill has 2 great books, out of print, a collection of all his articles he wrote for woodturning magazine. I was humbled and nervous when I started working for the magazine, some of the best turners in history have written articles there. The thing is, there are no shortcuts or magic potions, yes a good mentor is essential, but you have to put time on the lathe.

 

[Dean Center]

Years ago, I had the opportunity to teach adult learners. In educating myself about the process, I was advised that teaching adults is not like teaching kids. Surprising to me, the first step with adults is to let them know you care. This basically meant getting to know them at least a little, who they are, where they come from, what their interests and goals are. The second step, I learned, is to find out what they already know.

 

[RichColvin]

I have told this story before, I love it, so I will tell it again. Bill Jones was asked how he got so good at the lathe. He said: why?! You just stand in front of it! Bill has 2 great books, out of print, a collection of all his articles he wrote for woodturning magazine. I was humbled and nervous when I started working for the magazine, some of the best turners in history have written articles there. The thing is, there are no shortcuts or magic potions, yes a good mentor is essential, but you have to put time on the lathe.

I must disagree with Emiliano on one point: It is important to ensure that, as you are building muscle memory, you are doing things correctly. Unlearning muscle memory developed around bad practices is very hard.

And building muscle memory is key to making great achievements. It is commonly taught in many sports that one must develop such muscle memories so they can ignore thinking about what they are doing, and instead thing of what they want to achieve and what could impact that. Think about golf: the key is to not think about swinging the club, but how the swing should be changed based on wind, grass length, etc.

The same is true with wood turning. How to use a gouge should be committed to muscle memory. The turner can then focus on the wood’s hardness, the angle to be achieved, etc.

I think practicing to build that memory is important. But read “Talent is Overrated” (by an unrelated Geoff Colvin). He really iterates that, just as Bill Jones noted, hours in the saddle is important. But it is more important to work on the items which you cannot do well. Not simply rehearsing those items you have already mastered.

Kind regards,
Rich

 

[robo hippy]

I was mostly self taught in my first few years, other than reading the Richard Raffen book, and I think I had his video also. It was a slow steady rise in skill level. Then we had a local club form. My learning curve took a very big swing up... Seeing things being done and being able to ask questions was huge in my learning...

robo hippy

 

[Isaac Fisher]

Lots of interesting thoughts in this old thread. Our local club is trying to start up a mentoring program, and I’d be curious what input or suggestions you all might have.

So far most of the discussion keeps coming around to providing lists of tools and where to find them and teaching basic safety. Those things are definitely important, but they seem more like cookie-cutter instruction.

I’ve always thought of a mentor as someone who helps guide another person as they develop their own voice and identity in a particular subject. Mentoring as I understand it could happen by teaching a technique, but more often takes the form of a prompt to explore an idea more deeply, or a series of critiques as a project develops.

I feel that our club needs two separate programs, one instructional for beginners and another for mentoring those who have a firm foundation and are ready to branch out.

Am I misunderstanding the normal usage of the word “mentoring” within woodturning circles?

 

[Chris Lawrence]

Lots of interesting thoughts in this old thread. Our local club is trying to start up a mentoring program, and I’d be curious what input or suggestions you all might have.

So far most of the discussion keeps coming around to providing lists of tools and where to find them and teaching basic safety. Those things are definitely important, but they seem more like cookie-cutter instruction.

I’ve always thought of a mentor as someone who helps guide another person as they develop their own voice and identity in a particular subject. Mentoring as I understand it could happen by teaching a technique, but more often takes the form of a prompt to explore an idea more deeply, or a series of critiques as a project develops.

I feel that our club needs two separate programs, one instructional for beginners and another for mentoring those who have a firm foundation and are ready to branch out.

Am I misunderstanding the normal usage of the word “mentoring” within woodturning circles?

The way I see it mentoring is more of a 1 on 1 type thing either just giving verbal instruction or working at a lathe. A class would be multiple students on multiple lathes being instructed how to do the same thing. We are working on starting our mentoring program back up. Our plan so far is to assign a club member to hold a list of experienced members that want to mentor. When a club member is looking for help this person would match them up with an available mentor. Our club has been fortunate the church we meet at has always let us use the great hall outside of our normal meeting night if no one else was using it. 2 years ago they gave us access to an unused building behind the church to keep our equipment setup. This allows us to hold classes on our 6 lathes whenever we want to. It has allowed us to bring in members that have wanted to try turning but have never touched a lathe before let alone own one.

 

[John K Jordan]

I feel that our club needs two separate programs, one instructional for beginners and another for mentoring those who have a firm foundation and are ready to branch out.

For our club mentoring it means both - those with experience who volunteer to mentor can work with beginners to teach basic ski or those interested in some of the mentor's specialties. There is much more demand for the former but I have had a few with experience looking for specific things.

Mentoring as specified by our club is one-on-one instruction - those with a lot of experience can get a lot from a demo, video or book while a beginner needs demonstration, guidance and constant correction (as WELL as tool suggestions and project ideas!) I sometimes loan tools and books, and give them wood if they need it. Some have come just for tool sharpening instruction. (That's sometimes more difficult than the turning since we don't always have the same jigs and such)

Is your mentoring program set up to use the AAW insurance? I'm not the one who knows the details about that but I think there are certain requirements. The big advantage is the insurance, protecting the mentor and the cub in the unheard-of event of of an injury. Each mentoring session has to be submitted and approved in advance. The mentors have to be AAW members and the mentees have to be members of the club.

I had a gentleman come for a short visit today and we never even turned the lathe on or made a cut - this time he was interested in some ideas about holding and procedures. He'll be back next week to make some shavings.

JKJ

 

[Isaac Fisher]

Chris,

Thanks for the input. How do you go about matching up mentors and mentees? Random, or is there some process?

JKJ,

Our club discussions haven’t got to the insurance part yet. Thanks for the reminder. Definitely something to discuss as we move forward. The club has insurance through AAW that covers monthly meetings held at my shop. It’s my primary source of income, so mentoring sessions will have to be held elsewhere unless they happen the same day as meetings. I don’t want to commit to shutting down and doing that kind of cleanup and rearranging more than once a month.

 

[Doug Freeman]

So far most of the discussion keeps coming around to providing lists of tools and where to find them and teaching basic safety. Those things are definitely important, but they seem more like cookie-cutter instruction.

Mentoring is one on one teaching and development. It can be from rank beginner to advanced turner wanting help in a new area. Some people struggle with basics in a class setting and need one on one to “get it”. Another aspect is whether your club plans to have classes, or just mentoring.

Your areas listed are the tip of the iceberg for beginner teaching. It starts with gaining info from students regarding their situation and what they want to achieve. Do they have a lathe, what type /size of space, what they envision turning, now and in the future. This helps define areas of interest and necessary equipment, space, etc. wanting to turn pens vs 18” bowls are very different goals.

There are basics that are mostly the same, safety/PPE, work area layout, dust Collection, sharpening, tools, accessories, basics of how tools work, sanding, finishing - scaled to the work size. Many of these subjects get divided into their own sections.

I’ve always thought of a mentor as someone who helps guide another person as they develop their own voice and identity in a particular subject. Mentoring as I understand it could happen by teaching a technique, but more often takes the form of a prompt to explore an idea more deeply, or a series of critiques as a project develops.

Depends on the student level. A beginner and intermediate have plenty to do just learning to turn and get to finished products, and how to improve them. Its all about gaining knowledge and developing skills/techniques to conscious competency to complete fairly basic work. They don’t have a voice yet.

As the student begins to achieve unconscious competency with basics, they start to move to advanced. Now their “voice” can start to show and begin to develop. All of the previous activity can be either classes or mentoring, just depends on how your group wants to approach it. Few actually get to a good solid foundation of unconscious competency. One on one mentoring is now the proper path. The method of teaching at this level varies. I had many types of teachers and sports coaches In high school, college, and professional level. Some worked great, some sucked, most in between.

I feel that our club needs two separate programs, one instructional for beginners and another for mentoring those who have a firm foundation and are ready to branch out.

I agree. As stated earlier, mentoring is one on one. Where that starts is up to your group.

Another aspect to this is what methods will be taught. Spindle turning isn’t as difficult here, but faceplate/bowl turninghas a lot of different methods. The bowl gouge has numerous different grinds. Favored grinds and methods vary significantly among the advanced turners I know, and these will be the class teachers and mentors. For classes there probably needs to be a grind and method agreed upon that will be taught. How to handle what is taught by mentors? I can answer that - what they prefer.

When I teach, I teach the grinds and methods I use, but I explain other grinds and methods and why I have chosen mine. I make a major point of telling students/mentees that there are many approaches to getting to the end result, and they do work. In some cases the method needs to fit the given equipment, in others its a matter of personal preference. Its actually best for students to spend time with different teachers learning their preferences, and then determining what they prefer.

 

[Dave Landers]

Our club has a mentor list. Mentors volunteer to be on the list, along with an area (or areas) of their expertise.
Mentors can be contacted for anything from phone or at-meeting advice, to arrange some one-on-one time, etc. Mentors volunteer because they want to help. But most mentors report that the contacts are rare outside of the monthly meeting.

We've tried to promote the mentor program over than last year or so... We've introduced mentors at meetings. Done profiles in the newsletter. We did a series of "mentor of the meeting" things with a mentor specifically available to answer questions during the meeting break. We asked mentors to do the instant gallery critique. And we did a series of mentor shop tours this summer. All trying to bring attention to the program and give the mentors some visibility.

Still, our members are not fully utilizing the resource. That just seems to be something about the social dynamics or whatever of our club.

 

[Chris Lawrence]

Chris,

Thanks for the input. How do you go about matching up mentors and mentees? Random, or is there some process?

The previous time we did the program many years ago one of our board members carried the list and matched them with a mentor that had experience in what they wanted help with. For some reason the club stopped it before i joined the club. Our classes have been so popular there is a waiting list to get into them they get filled within a couple days if not hours of posting the classes. We are trying to start up the mentoring program again because of this and the amount of new turners that are joining the club. One thing we are doing differently is allowing approved mentors access to our turning center for the mentoring if they want. This will take away the "i am going to someone else's house" aspect who might be uncomfortable with that. For insurance how it was explained to me as long as the mentoring is a club sanctioned event it should be covered but check with your insurance agent.