Alan, I believe the Bormax can be had as a carbide bit or HSS. Which did you get?
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Fostner Bit Recommendation
- Thread starter Ed Weingarden
- Start date
Didn’t get carbide. Saw that option only post purchase.
Yep, that is correct.
I find it useful to have sets in both carbide and HSS, both imperial and metric.
The carbide cuts fast but not as cleanly. Fine for partial hollowing and cutting recesses that will be cut away (or cleaned up and left for show)
The HSS bits can cut a far cleaner hole.
Also, I think I've commented on this before: many Forstner bits have hex shafts to be gripped firmly in a Jacob's chuck. However, for precision drilling on the lathe I prefer bits with a smooth, round 3/8" shank which lock nicely into 2MT end mill collets. This eliminates any potential misalignment from a Jacob's chuck.
JKJ
Roger Wiegand
Beta Tester
I know woodturners seem to love the crush grind mechanisms, but I'll tell you as a cook I'm underwhelmed. The pepper grinder I made with their mechanism wore out in less than a year of use. The widely available so called "deluxe" made in USA steel burr grinders at least hold up, though they are pretty slow to use. They are the best I've found here. Neither hold a candle to the Peugeot mechanisms-- my main grinder had probably done 30-40 pounds of pepper over the last 30 some years and is still going strong. Will grind 3-4 times faster over a broader range of particle sizes than any mechanism I've been able to find for installation in a turned mill. It's a shame they won't sell naked mechanisms any more. There's a guy in Switzerland who makes a spectacular looking, finely machined mechanism that I'd love to be able to get, but he won't export them. I don't know how well they work, but they are works of machinist art. At some point I'll have a friend there buy some and ship them to me even though that will entail a significant VAT addition over the ~$30-40 price of the mechanisms. Clearly these aren't intended for decorative pepper mills that get very light use.
Yes, I'm obsessed with grinding pepper.
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That right there is pretty much all I need to know to convince me to not waste money on any new kits (I made a couple from someone's old leftover kits I got in a box lot, and wasn't impressed) I gotta put pepper on pretty much everything (that I eat) and though I'm no chef, the few pepper (and salt) grinders I have every used myself (even commercially bought) just made me wonder why I'd ever want to NOT buy plain ol' ground black pepper instead.... (Though if I had to, I'd just toss peppercorns in a coffee grinder!)
I haven't used a ton of forstners. I used a small variety in my first year, all with the kind of sharp saw-toothed teeth, from a few different brands. I always had heat problems, smoke, burning, etc. And I was never impressed with the quality of the holes drilled. The sawtooth edge seems to actually cause problems for the bit moving through the wood, you have to move a lot slower, so there is more friction overall and a lot of heat builds up.
I picked up a Fisch Wave Cutter Forstner bit one day, it was the only one on the rack at Woodcraft that day. That thing cut better than any forstner I'd ever used before, barely any heat, cuts pretty much any wood like it was butter, and it remained sharp for a very long time. I ended up picking up a whole set of Fisch wave cutters, and some have been used extensively over the last few years (starting 2020) and are still cutting strong. I've sharpened the actual cutting edge (the two strait edges from edge to center) a couple of times on a couple, but the outer wavy cutting edge, I have never had to worry about.
I don't know specifically what kind of metal they are. I know that they have a "forged" version, I'm not specifically aware of what the normal versions are in terms of metal. In any case, the wave cutter edge never has any problems moving through the wood or keeping the bit strait. I also have never had any real problems with heat. I used to always see smoke with the sawtooth bits, but never (or very very rarely) do with the wave cutters.
I was asked to fix this one by replacing the crush-grind mechanism. The person had been happy with it, using it for maybe 20 years when one part cracked. If I can't find a mechanism that fits I'll just start over and make a new one from scratch.
The Fisch Wave Cutter has had some other good reviews, too. I was doing a little research recently and it appears that the Wave Cutter model has been replaced with the Black Shark. It still has the "waves", and the two models appear very similar.
It makes sense to spend a lot of money on a drill bit if it produces an accurate size hole with a very good finish.
The problem is though is that you still need to clean up the bottom some how. I did try using large bull nose router bits but it didn’t work very well. It might have been good for a finishing cut, but I didn’t think of it at the time. I’ll have to revisit the idea of drilling boxes though as it could speed things up considerably, if it can be done without a poor finish.
The problem is though is that you still need to clean up the bottom some how. I did try using large bull nose router bits but it didn’t work very well. It might have been good for a finishing cut, but I didn’t think of it at the time. I’ll have to revisit the idea of drilling boxes though as it could speed things up considerably, if it can be done without a poor finish.
Original Forstner bits had a unique function other bits could not perform. Making comparisons of other bits to true Forstner bits makes you sense.
Advertisers have expanded the definition of Forstner bits to something they were never intended to be.
For a curved bottom in a tight spot, you might consider a bottom feeder gouge. It has two bevels, the cutting bevel being something like 60 degrees. This is one from Robert Sorbey, but I ground my own.
Could you explain that? Forstner bits have one common feature in my limited experience: they can cut any section of a circle (full circle, half circle, whatever) without wandering. That's what I thought they were made for.
The patent is interesting:
“Be it known that I, BENJAMIN FORSTNER, of the city of Salem, in the county of Marion, in the State of Oregon, hzwe invented a new and useful Improvement on an Auger for Boring Holes in Wood; and I do hereby declare that the following is a full, clear, and exact description of the construction and operation of the same, reference being had to the annexed drawings, which are made a part of these specifications.
This invention consists in providing the cuttin g part of an anger or bit with a circular cutting band or flange,in connection with a suitable cutting-lip, the band and lip being located nearly in the same horizontal plane, as will be fully described hereinafter.
In the drawings, Figures 1 and 4 represent views of side elevations of my invention; Figs. 2 and 6, sectional elevations, and Figs. 3 and 5 plan views.
To enable others skilled in the art to make and use my invention, I will now proceed to describe fully its construction and manner of operation.
4 represents a circular band or flange, provided with a cutting-edge, as shown; and a, a cutting-lip of any suitable construction, the
[ cutting-edges of each being located on nearly the same horizontal plane as shown. The advantages of this peculiar construction are very marked. The circular band serves to guide the bit accurately in its movement, and also give the hole that is bored a smooth and perfect finish.
By its employment the gimlet-point may be dispensed with, and as the cutting-lips do not project beyond its horizontal plane, it follows that the wood is not out beyond the line operated upon by the circular cutting-edge of the band.
By means of this peculiar construction, also, there is no tendency to split the wood or to follow the grain.
Having thus fully described my invention, what I claim as new, and desire to secure by Letters Patent, is
The auger having the circular cutting-band and cutting-lip located in nearly the same horizontal plane, as and. for the purpose described.
It doesn’t have a centre point like modern bits?
“Be it known that I, BENJAMIN FORSTNER, of the city of Salem, in the county of Marion, in the State of Oregon, hzwe invented a new and useful Improvement on an Auger for Boring Holes in Wood; and I do hereby declare that the following is a full, clear, and exact description of the construction and operation of the same, reference being had to the annexed drawings, which are made a part of these specifications.
This invention consists in providing the cuttin g part of an anger or bit with a circular cutting band or flange,in connection with a suitable cutting-lip, the band and lip being located nearly in the same horizontal plane, as will be fully described hereinafter.
In the drawings, Figures 1 and 4 represent views of side elevations of my invention; Figs. 2 and 6, sectional elevations, and Figs. 3 and 5 plan views.
To enable others skilled in the art to make and use my invention, I will now proceed to describe fully its construction and manner of operation.
4 represents a circular band or flange, provided with a cutting-edge, as shown; and a, a cutting-lip of any suitable construction, the
[ cutting-edges of each being located on nearly the same horizontal plane as shown. The advantages of this peculiar construction are very marked. The circular band serves to guide the bit accurately in its movement, and also give the hole that is bored a smooth and perfect finish.
By its employment the gimlet-point may be dispensed with, and as the cutting-lips do not project beyond its horizontal plane, it follows that the wood is not out beyond the line operated upon by the circular cutting-edge of the band.
By means of this peculiar construction, also, there is no tendency to split the wood or to follow the grain.
Having thus fully described my invention, what I claim as new, and desire to secure by Letters Patent, is
The auger having the circular cutting-band and cutting-lip located in nearly the same horizontal plane, as and. for the purpose described.
It doesn’t have a centre point like modern bits?
Hmm, how so? I'm quite baffled at the nature of the teeth changes things enough for one brand's to be different from a "true forstner"... The Fisch are the same, except for teh outer edge and tooth design. Instead of being sawtooth, they are a sine wave with a much finer edge. The central point design, however, is the same, as are the cutting edges between the point and the outer edge.
So how, exactly, is the Fisch not a "true forstner" and how could it not perform the same job? What, exactly, do the rough sawtooth teeth do that the wave cutter could not (and for that matter, that the wave cutter couldn't do BETTER!?)
Is this for a Forstner BIT? This says Forstner Auger... Looks like an entirely different tool... May be the same inventor, but I'm not sure this is the same product.
Yeah, this has always been a conundrum for me. Aside from the bit of tearout from the cutting edges, there is of course always the dimple from the center point. I've thought maybe I could file the center point down, but then I wonder if it would still cut as strait, or even START properly centered. If I'm turning something, I'll always drill less than my target depth, and use proper turning tools to finish up the bottom (which is still tough), and enough that I eliminate the dimple. Wonder if that center point could be spring loaded, and if the spring could be unloaded to retract the center point once the hole is started.......heh, such a design would probably be ridiculously expensive.
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(which is part of the patent's text, not Bill's paraphrasing anything...)
and lastly to your post regarding the dimple or center point, back to the original patent text: "By its employment the gimlet-point may be dispensed with," (You'll note the original patent does not have such - as shown in the drawings..) Since patent has likely long since expired, manufacturers are free to adapt and/or improve said design for modern tooling and usages, but it's still recognizably a Forstner bit. (Because of the circular cutting band, which is the key distinction from it being an ordinary auger drill bit), so I agree with your argument vs Doug's comment (the "true" forstner bit part) I'd be all for a design incorporating a spring loaded center point, but should one wish to do so, they could easily start a hole with the pointed forstner, and then drill to depth with a bit modified by grinding the center point off, since the sides of the hole would guide and direct the bit, I would think?
A removable center point might be nice. I've ground off several - not needed if the work is held firmly in vise clamped to a good drill press or on a lathe.
A terrific tool, and has uses beyond "bottoms."🙂 Great on stubborn grain, inside or outside of a bowl. We grind ours out of "too short" bowl gouges. My understanding is that not all flute shapes work, but the D-Way gouges have done really well when re-purposed.
I wonder if it could be as simple as a magnetic center... Pop it in when you start to get proper centering, then just pull (or maybe knock) it out to do the finishing cut.
I’ve found standard Forstner bits work fine cutting smooth holes in cross grain timber, even softwood like pine.
They don’t seem to work so well on end grain wood though, at least not for me. I was under the impression that the saw tooth bits may work better on end grain than standard bits? Anyone found this? Does “better” mean quicker, and how does the finish compare?
I’m not really interested in spending a lot of money on these newer bits but if they do work well then maybe I might invest in one or two at some point for special jobs.
They don’t seem to work so well on end grain wood though, at least not for me. I was under the impression that the saw tooth bits may work better on end grain than standard bits? Anyone found this? Does “better” mean quicker, and how does the finish compare?
I’m not really interested in spending a lot of money on these newer bits but if they do work well then maybe I might invest in one or two at some point for special jobs.
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End grain, my experience to date seems to be "it don't matter as long as the long cutting edge across the width is SHARP" (and yes they can be sharpened I use a diamond credit card size hone.) and "Less wood it drills the better" - Often when having to drill larger diameter holes (bigger than 3/4" or so) I will start out first with the largest size of bit I am going to use, and get the first 1/16" of the depth drilled (so it has sides to pilot the bit) and then step down by quarter inch increments (or as much as half inch to 3/4 inch increments - it varies on my whims) just starting a pilot hole as above for each smaller size of bit until I get to the smallest (usually 3/4 to 7/8 inch) which I then will use to drill to depth, and then step my way back up drilling each subsequent size to the same depth - It seems to take longer, but there's a lot less stress and heat on the drill bits, the wood, and the lathe. (I was primarily concerned with overheating larger bits and ruining them) and doing so I found is actually a bit FASTER than trying to drill the full size hole in one go.
Don’t remember where I described this last, but some years ago I started directing a strong jet of compressed air into the back end of any hole I’m drilling with a forstner, even if deep. The compressed air does two things: 1) it helps to remove chips while drilling so they don’t jam up around and below the bit, ant 2) the air keeps the bit cool.
Since the day I thought of this, I don’t think I’ve drilled a hole with a forstner without it. I’ve drilled quite deep holes with this method, sometimes with a shaft extension. (Works with spade bits too for construction)
It does help to have central air compressor in the shop with air lines run through the walls and ceilings and outlets at the lathes, little machine shop, and even outside the building (useful when shearing llamas and airing tires).
JKJ
I do the same thing! Even with normal jobber bits, I've always got a stream of medium pressure air blwoing on the bit and clearing the chips. I keep thinking I need to create a jig to hold the nozzle and lever down when I do this, so I can keep both hands on the chuck and tailstock, but...I guess I'm lazy. I don't have "central" air compression, but, I did take all the lines from my compressor, run them up the wall where I have it, then run them out to the various machines in my shop. They hang down from the ceiling, on those spring hoses, and I rigged up some pulleys with weights to pull them back up when not in use, so they stay out of my way. I can generally reach back and grab one from whatever machine I'm at, if I need air, but mostly they are out of my hair!
I still back out to clear chips if I start to hear the bit screeching, but otherwise, it makes drilling faster and yes, you can drill quite deep.