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? for those of you who have sliding headstocks.....

Oh, where are the pictures with the circles and arrows on them (to be used as evidence against us) from Alice's Restaurant..... Okay, most headstocks have a rectangular footprint on the lathe bed, and the sides go pretty much straight up and down making a box. On the Vic, the headstock spindle bearing is on one edge of this tower, and the spindle comes straight out from that. In the Oneway and Robust, ;at the top of the tower there is a bell housing on the side towards the tailstock. This sticks out maybe 3 inches from the headstock tower. It does allow for the whole headstock spindle to be removed for repair rather than having to take the whole headstock off. On the Laguna, that cone sticks out way farther than that.... The VB36 is alien... Point is, the farther off the headstock tower the piece is mounted, the more vibration there will be, almost identical to what happens with longer/deeper hollow forms. Make more sense now?

robo hippy
 
Dennis J Gooding said:
I can see two phenomena that, in principle, could increase the vibration when the work piece is positioned further and further from the head bearings.
Click to expand...


This has come up before. On my Laguna 18-36 the bearing is at the end of the cone, not back into the headstock. The cone is 3" out from the headstock. So the chuck is in the same place relative to the bearing as on any other lathe and the work is not further from the bearing.


robo hippy said:
On my ole PM 3520A, it was off a bit farther, so with the chuck and bowl blank, the chuck jaws were at about 4+ inches (can't remember exactly) off the headstock. With my AB, that mounting point is about 6 3/4 inches. With the Laguna, I am guessing that the jaws move out to 8 or 9 inches. This contributes hugely to vibration issues with larger pieces, UNLESS you have the tailstock mounted and engaged. With my PM, I almost never used the tailstock, which is probably the leading contributor to having the headstock bearings wear out after about 5 years. With the AB, I use it on any bowl over about 12 inch diameter, until I am doing finish cuts on the outside, and not on the inside or for coring. Some of the early sliding headstocks just had a round plate under the headstock, similar to what is on the bottom of the banjo, which considering the load differences between the headstock and banjo, was way undersized.. My AB has a full length plate under the headstock and is very secure. No clue as to what is on the bottom of the Laguna.

robo hippy
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I also not sure about the measurements you are stating. Do you mean your jaws are 6-3/4" from the bearing? "Here are the measurements on my Laguna. The jaws are about 3-1/2" from the bearing. The jaws are about 7" from the straight part of the casting headstock.


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As far as vibration this picture is of a 14-1/2" ash blank and notice the nickel on the headstock and the tailstock is away from the work. There is no excessive vibration because of the cone. The blank is turning at the max safe speed for that diameter. I contend that lathes with a cone have less vibration as they have more casting to disperse the vibration vs those vertical.

Edit: the inside of the ash blank has not been turned when this picture was taken, the outside was trued up with the tailstock engaged.

The Laguna does use the round washer to lock the headstock. It does lock down solid. I have turned on a Robust and it is a great lathe and the Laguna does not compare in many ways. The Robust is a much heaver lathe and mass does counter vibration. I have added 280# below my lathe and this does help eliminating vibration, but does not match built in mass. I believe the biggest cause of vibration is improper set up.

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Dennis J Gooding said:
I can see two phenomena that, in principle, could increase the vibration when the work piece is positioned further and further from the head bearings. One is an increase in resonance of the shaft/workpiece combination to the spindle rpm. The other is whipping of the workpiece as the shaft bends toward the heavy side of the workpiece. As spindle turners will attest, even balanced workpieces suddenly become unbalanced when whipping occurs. I have not tried to analyze quantitatively how much whipping one would expect for typical combinations of shaft diameter, overhang length, and load unbalance, but it should not be difficult to carry out.
Click to expand...

If you you throw wood into the mix (which would be necessary) I think it would be a daunting task to account for all of the characteristics. And then the human element ... the skill level, the tool being used, tool sharpness, pressure, and on and on.

My first lathe, a Delta 1440 Iron Bed, was by itself the major source of vibration because of its cheap Reeves Drive. The motor pulley was in a constant state expanding and contracting which meant that spindle speed was transmitting rotational speed noise to the wood. The two headstock bearings were about two inches apart ... both at the inboard side and the pulley was overhung about four inches. This didn't help the vibration problem at all. :D
 
To me, the bearing placement is not the issue. How far off the headstock tower the bearing placement is, is the issue. The more it cantilevers away from the tower, the more the vibration issues are going to be.

robo hippy
 
robo hippy said:
Oh, where are the pictures with the circles and arrows on them (to be used as evidence against us) from Alice's Restaurant..... Okay, most headstocks have a rectangular footprint on the lathe bed, and the sides go pretty much straight up and down making a box. On the Vic, the headstock spindle bearing is on one edge of this tower, and the spindle comes straight out from that. In the Oneway and Robust, ;at the top of the tower there is a bell housing on the side towards the tailstock. This sticks out maybe 3 inches from the headstock tower. It does allow for the whole headstock spindle to be removed for repair rather than having to take the whole headstock off. On the Laguna, that cone sticks out way farther than that.... The VB36 is alien... Point is, the farther off the headstock tower the piece is mounted, the more vibration there will be, almost identical to what happens with longer/deeper hollow forms. Make more sense now?

robo hippy
Click to expand...

I'll buy the part of your argument that something mounted a longer distance from the spindle nose has less stiffness than something that is close to the spindle nose. However, I don't see that having a "cone" is really a factor with respect to vibration. Is a lathe with a 16 inch swing stiffer than a lathe with a 25 inch swing? I think that there are a multitude of things that are far more relevant ... casting thickness, spindle radial and axial play, clamping between headstock and bed, bed stiffness, etc.

I felt obliged to look at the headstock on my Robust. The "cone" is a bearing housing assembly machined from a solid block of steel (it's thicker than the casting) and bolted to a machined flat surface on the headstock with eight bolts. The total height of the bearing housing is slightly less than 2¼" judging by my tape measure and eyeball. The bearing is about 1½" from the casting. I can't measure any radial or axial play at the nose of the spindle.

I would put the blame for vibration on the wood and tool and maybe the operator in some cases. Wood that is thin or a long distance from the chuck or faceplate and/or long overhang on the tool or small diameter is usually where the problem starts, but there can be sympathetic vibrations everywhere. I think that the tool rest needs to be very sturdy or else it can be a big contributor to vibration, Same goes for the banjo and clamping plate.
 
What about the second bearing. Isn't that just as important. If the 2 are spaced fairly far apart that will also affect the vibration. I think most of the vibration we feel is in the tool part, not the headstock. How is the rear of the tool supported. You might only have an inch over the tool rest but the far end of the tool is going to be much more of a vibration problem than how the headstock is designed. This is not a metal lathe where you have the tool locked to the carriage.
 
Well, there are multiple issues that can cause vibrations, wood, how you mount it, tool sharpness, tool presentation, and probably more. After upgrading from the PM to the AB, and still turning the same woods and using the same tools, there was more vibration on the AB than on the PM. Not much with smaller bowls, but with 12 to 14 inch bowls, a noticeable difference, UNLESS the tailstock was engaged. The pivoting tail stock on the AB is the best set up I have seen, and makes it convenient to use it, where on the PM, they didn't have anything like that at the time and it was a bother, and not necessary. How sturdy the bell housing and cones are makes a small difference. The total cantilevered distance off of the headstock tower also makes a difference. Another thing that makes a difference is how big the base of the headstock tower is. Ever look at that Titan lathe headstock set up? Because that base is perhaps half again as long as any other out there I can think of, You could get away with a more extended housing or cone. If the bases of the headstock towers on the PM or AB were smaller this would be a much bigger problem. To me it is all about levers. Take a look at the VB36. Massive base, frame and tower, which probably makes it more solid than just about anything out there. Unless you do production work, these differences would be almost unnoticeable.

robo hippy
 
Bobby Smith said:
I'm glad this thread popped back to life. I have a sliding headstock on my Grizzly G0462. I have it at the end and have never moved it. Do any of you prefer a different position? I've never thought about moving it I guess.
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My first lathe was the same as yours. It has a reeves drive and the lowest speed is around 600 rpm. Mine also had an articulating tool rest. It is a good lathe for spindle work but because of the high lowest speed be sure to use caution doing bowls. This is just my opinion but be extra careful using the articulating tool rest, it is pretty flimsy. Just use some extra caution.
 
Bobby Smith said:
I'm glad this thread popped back to life. I have a sliding headstock on my Grizzly G0462. I have it at the end and have never moved it. Do any of you prefer a different position? I've never thought about moving it I guess.
Click to expand...
If you take up hollowing, and with bowls one day in the future when you are no longer a whippersnapper, you will find that sliding the headstock down the bed and turning from the end of the lathe is more comfortable.
 
Fred Belknap said:
My first lathe was the same as yours. It has a reeves drive and the lowest speed is around 600 rpm. Mine also had an articulating tool rest. It is a good lathe for spindle work but because of the high lowest speed be sure to use caution doing bowls. This is just my opinion but be extra careful using the articulating tool rest, it is pretty flimsy. Just use some extra caution.
Click to expand...
Yea actually the lowest speed I can get on it is 530rpms. The tool rest that came with this is pretty stout as I can tell. It's about a 12"-13" rest. Cast steel. It was actually too big to use for the little stuff I'm doing so I had a custom 6" made that I use now. I have done some small bowls on the lathe already. Nothing large at this point. Not sure I will even get into large things.
 
Dean Center said:
If you take up hollowing, and with bowls one day in the future when you are no longer a whippersnapper, you will find that sliding the headstock down the bed and turning from the end of the lathe is more comfortable.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean. Moving my headstock to the other end of the lathe?. That would entail swapping places with my tailstock? Right now my headstock sits at the far end of the left side of my lathe. As I am right-handed, this seems like the perfect place for me to hollow out with my control being on my right side.
 
Bobby the more the belt wears the faster it goes. I moved the handle to get more adjustment and with a new belt I could get down to 550 rpm. Mine came with an extension on the tool rest so you could swing it around to the side. It basically was and articulating arm extension. I never used it.
 
Fred Belknap said:
Bobby the more the belt wears the faster it goes. I moved the handle to get more adjustment and with a new belt I could get down to 550 rpm. Mine came with an extension on the tool rest so you could swing it around to the side. It basically was and articulating arm extension. I never used it.
Click to expand...
This is what is on mine. Is this what you are talking about? I guess I never really thought about taking it off.
tool rest.jpg
 
Bobby Smith said:
This is what is on mine. Is this what you are talking about? I guess I never really thought about taking it off.
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That's called a dogleg. Take it off and throw it away ... or at least take it off. It just makes the tool rest less stiff. It might not seem like much, but that can be a big time contributor to vibration. Then turn the banjo around.

When you slide the headstock down to the tailstock end of the lathe, you remove the tailstock and are no longer turning between centers. The work piece is being held with a chuck or faceplate.
 
Bill Boehme said:
That's called a dogleg. Take it off and throw it away ... or at least take it off. It just makes the tool rest less stiff. It might not seem like much, but that can be a big time contributor to vibration. Then turn the banjo around.

When you slide the headstock down to the tailstock end of the lathe, you remove the tailstock and are no longer turning between centers. The work piece is being held with a chuck or faceplate.
Click to expand...
Ok, yea that dogleg is a little bothersome sometime. The only time I really see a need for it is when I'm turning something small like my pens or bottle stoppers. Without it, my tailstock has to be set in soo close to my headstock that I can't get my toolrest lined up center to my work. I'll have to take it off and play around with positioning. Now I understand also moving the headstock. That way I can stand right in front of my work if needed. Thanks for tips!!!
Thought I'd add this pic. As you can see, my tailstock has a long forward base. When I move it in to use my pen mandrel or stopper mandrel, my banjo won't move out enough to get my toolrest center. I have to use the dogleg to get it above the tailstock base to swing the toolrest to center.

Lathe 2.jpg
 
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Bobby Smith said:
Ok, yea that dogleg is a little bothersome sometime. The only time I really see a need for it is when I'm turning something small like my pens or bottle stoppers. Without it, my tailstock has to be set in soo close to my headstock that I can't get my toolrest lined up center to my work. I'll have to take it off and play around with positioning.
Click to expand...

If I understand what you are saying correctly -- get a tool rest with a shorter horizontal bar. Life is much simpler if the length of the tool rest bar is similar to the length of what you are turning. I have half a dozen tool rests of various lengths.
 
That's really an "interesting" looking tailstock. Maybe the easiest solution would be to crank the tailstock quill out just short of its maximum extension. Next get a six inch low profile Robust tool rest. Then you won't need the dogleg and you will be able to turn the banjo around.
 
That tailstock design sucks. Don't the lathe designers ever talk to real turners. I know Powermatic, Robust, Delta and Oneway have. Apparently Grizzly never has because of some of the wierd things they have done over the years. You can buy a morse taper extension that would go in the tailstock and extend it out. It would probably add a little vibration but I'll bet it would be less than that cantilever tool rest design. They are really inexpensive and you can probably get one from Grizzly.
 
It looks like your tool rest shown in post #55 above might be the same as a two piece tool rest that I own in which the post screws into the cross bar. That type of rest would work for carbide tools held horizontally, but I discovered the large diameter crossbar becomes a problem when using a skew or spindle gouge because of the large diameter of the crossbar I couldn't get the fulcrum point really close to the work especially when i dropped the tool handle. Anyway I still have my two piece tool rest like that in a drawer waiting to be repurposed into something that I might use.
 
john lucas said:
That tailstock design sucks. Don't the lathe designers ever talk to real turners. I know Powermatic, Robust, Delta and Oneway have. Apparently Grizzly never has because of some of the wierd things they have done over the years. You can buy a morse taper extension that would go in the tailstock and extend it out. It would probably add a little vibration but I'll bet it would be less than that cantilever tool rest design. They are really inexpensive and you can probably get one from Grizzly.
Click to expand...

With the base of the tail stock intruding into the work space of the work piece this can be problematic when positioning the banjo or other jigs and turning accessories for a work piece. For that design it would have made more sense to turn the tail stock base 180 degrees and mount the handle and quill from the opposite end to increase work space under the work piece.
 
Bill Boehme said:
It looks like your tool rest shown in post #55 above might be the same as a two piece tool rest that I own in which the post screws into the cross bar. That type of rest would work for carbide tools held horizontally, but I discovered the large diameter crossbar becomes a problem when using a skew or spindle gouge because of the large diameter of the crossbar I couldn't get the fulcrum point really close to the work especially when i dropped the tool handle. Anyway I still have my two piece tool rest like that in a drawer waiting to be repurposed into something that I might use.
Click to expand...
It may be Bill, not sure. It was made from Rick??? Someone here on the forum. I would have to look up his name. It's just 1" round and will slide into my banjo or dogleg. I've never taken it apart. And my tool rest was made by Rick Harrell from the IAP forum. Sorry.
 
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hockenbery said:
One strong testimony for the Laguna Revo - Craft Supplies sells it.
They know woodturning and what they carry works for woodturners.

With any lathe - heavy blanks should be turned with the headstock above a leg set or close to it.
Small and medium size work will vibrate less and you are unlikely to be able to measure the extra vibration when the headstock is in the middle. You will gain a 100+ rpm with the headstock over the legs with heavy blanks which is a big deal for roughing.

90% of turners will be happier and more successful turners by
Buying a Jet or Laguna and using the money saved to take quality classes.
Robust and ONEWAY are terrific lathes however making crappy work on a terrific lathe is not nearly as satisfying as making great work on a second tier lathe.
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Craft supplies no longer carry Laguna lathes. I asked why and was told by them that even though they make really good lathes the customer support was not where it needed to be so they could not longer carry their lathes.
 
Richard Chaddock said:
Craft supplies no longer carry Laguna lathes. I asked why and was told by them that even though they make really good lathes the customer support was not where it needed to be so they could not longer carry their lathes.
Click to expand...

Good to know. I updated my post with you quote. Things happen in 14 months.
Thanks
 
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