Flooring & Lathe Vibration: Concrete vs Wood

[Rip Littig]

My 600 pound lathe stands on hardwood flooring on top of a sub floor (framed 2 x 4's) which rest on concrete. When twice turning a bowl my feet don't feel vibration and I don't visually see the lathe vibrating. I'm moving my shop to a different part of the basement where flooring will be the same except the lathe will stand on plywood vs hardwood. When making finishing cuts on a twice turned bowl per se, will undetected floor vibration lead to a poor finish? Clearly proper grinding and tool technique are the main determinants of effective finishing cuts but am I better off standing the lathe directly on concrete vs wood flooring? I may be splitting hairs but I'm curious all the same. I know my back will prefer wood flooring but will the lathe, properly leveled, prefer concrete? I searched this topic in prior threads but couldn't find it addressed specifically. Thanks in advance for any clarity and/or suggestions!

 

[hockenbery]

When making finishing cuts on a twice turned bowl per se, will undetected floor vibration lead to a poor finish?

If you don’t notice the vibration don’t worry about it.

Things you control like bevel drag will affect the finish cut a 1000 times more than an undetected floor vibration.

 

[rkriet]

Yes, I think you may be splitting hairs. Stick to the wood flooring and save your back.

 

[Kurt Manley]

My 600 pound lathe stands on hardwood flooring on top of a sub floor (framed 2 x 4's) which rest on concrete. When twice turning a bowl my feet don't feel vibration and I don't visually see the lathe vibrating. I'm moving my shop to a different part of the basement where flooring will be the same except the lathe will stand on plywood vs hardwood. When making finishing cuts on a twice turned bowl per se, will undetected floor vibration lead to a poor finish? Clearly proper grinding and tool technique are the main determinants of effective finishing cuts but am I better off standing the lathe directly on concrete vs wood flooring? I may be splitting hairs but I'm curious all the same. I know my back will prefer wood flooring but will the lathe, properly leveled, prefer concrete? I searched this topic in prior threads but couldn't find it addressed specifically. Thanks in advance for any clarity and/or suggestions!

Are the 2x4's acting as sleepers resting directly on the concrete? If I could easily open it up I would probably add some support directly under the lathe. If not I would just do my best to make sure the lathe was directly over the 2x4's and not directly in the middle of a plywood run. Also, do you know how thick the plywood is? I would want 3/4" minimum in a work area with heavy equipment.
Another idea would be to cut open the floor in two places between the "joists" and build 2 forms that you could pour 2 small concrete bases in that are a little bigger than the legs of the lathe ( I hope I'm understanding your post correctly- there's a concrete floor approximately 4 inches below your plywood floor right?).
You could have the lathe bolted to two concrete bases and still have the wood floor for your back.

Aside from my overthought ideas I do agree that hardwood vs plywood probably wouldn't be much different if it's sturdy plywood

 

[robo hippy]

My preference is for concrete, it is just more stable than wood. You can shore up under the wood floor if bouncing/vibration becomes an issue. A mini lathe can be on a wood floor with no problems. The bigger the lathe, the more support you need under it, and the bigger the pieces you will be turning, same thing.

robo hippy

 

[Randy Heinemann]

Lathe vibration doesn't originate with the floor, but with the lathe itself; namely from an unbalanced blank. If the plywood floor is solid, I doubt that it would cause any problems. If you can feel the floor give when you walk on it, then it might be a good idea to add screws to fasten it better to what it's mounted on. If the plywood is installed directly on a concrete floor with adhesive, it's unlikely there would be any problems. The floor shouldn't amplify vibrations originating with the lathe via the blank you are working on. If your lathe vibrates on its own, then there may be other issues.

 

[Isaac Davis]

I just moved my lathe from a super beefy wood floor to concrete and the difference is absolutely amazing. I used to get a slight vibration at anything higher than around 450, and 500 was about as fast as I could spin anything. Now I can rough turn a big bowl blank above 500.

 

[Rip Littig]

Are the 2x4's acting as sleepers resting directly on the concrete? If I could easily open it up I would probably add some support directly under the lathe. If not I would just do my best to make sure the lathe was directly over the 2x4's and not directly in the middle of a plywood run. Also, do you know how thick the plywood is? I would want 3/4" minimum in a work area with heavy equipment.
Another idea would be to cut open the floor in two places between the "joists" and build 2 forms that you could pour 2 small concrete bases in that are a little bigger than the legs of the lathe ( I hope I'm understanding your post correctly- there's a concrete floor approximately 4 inches below your plywood floor right?).
You could have the lathe bolted to two concrete bases and still have the wood floor for your back.

Aside from my overthought ideas I do agree that hardwood vs plywood probably wouldn't be much different if it's sturdy plywood

Thanks Kurt, the 2 x 4's are resting directly on the concrete. I believe the plywood is 3/4" thick but won't know for sure until I rip up carpeting. I may double up the plywood for added stability or take your suggestions above.

 

[Odie]

Everything you can do to prevent, or lessen vibration is well worth the effort, and a concrete base is one component of the total effort where that can be directly addressed. (But, then again......some turners do not require perfection in their tool finishes, because they can always power sand their turnings to an acceptable pre-finish state.)

With my own turning style, I've come to the realization that adjusting the rpm (sometimes only very small amounts) can and does directly impact my ability to achieve the most perfect cuts that are possible. These rpm adjustments may be too small to detect the differences by feeling for it with your hands on the lathe bed, but entirely within the capabilities of a homemade "vibrometer".

There was a discussion that led to the development of my own personal vibrometer right here on the AAW forums a few years ago......I'll provide a link:

Lathe vibration detector ideas please!

I am looking for ideas for devices, or inventions for detecting minor vibrations on the lathe. The purpose is to adjust the rpm to where the least possible vibrations are present. Right now, I use my fingertips on the lathe bed, plus there is one long neck spot lamp that consistently gives me...

www.aawforum.org

I'll also note here, that a concrete slab base, bolting your lathe to it, sandbags, weights.....all in concert with the use of a vibrometer, does not, or will not become anyone's "silver bullet". These things are merely a component within a much larger, and more complex equation.

-o-

 

[JeffSmith]

My lathe (Robust AB) sits on a wood floor over a crawl space with 5’ of headroom directly under. The shop was built 7 years ago and the lathe placement and shop configuration was planned in advance. The floor under the turning area is 1-1/2” t&g plywood over 2 x 12’s on 12” centers. The lathe sits perpendicular to the joists. Directly under the legs of the lathe, two 6 x 10 beams are jacked up from ground level to the bottom of the joists. The lathe is not attached to the floor. This configuration results in very little vibration (not caused by imbalanced blanks) and is friendly to my feet and back.

My former shop was on a slab - I don’t miss it one bit. The wood floor is warmer, very stable and easy on the joints.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

My 600 pound lathe stands on hardwood flooring on top of a sub floor (framed 2 x 4's) which rest on concrete. When twice turning a bowl my feet don't feel vibration and I don't visually see the lathe vibrating. I'm moving my shop to a different part of the basement where flooring will be the same except the lathe will stand on plywood vs hardwood. When making finishing cuts on a twice turned bowl per se, will undetected floor vibration lead to a poor finish? Clearly proper grinding and tool technique are the main determinants of effective finishing cuts but am I better off standing the lathe directly on concrete vs wood flooring? I may be splitting hairs but I'm curious all the same. I know my back will prefer wood flooring but will the lathe, properly leveled, prefer concrete? I searched this topic in prior threads but couldn't find it addressed specifically. Thanks in advance for any clarity and/or suggestions!

Accommodate the lathe and yourself, set the lathe on the concrete, fasten it, and lay plywood or other where you are going to be walking and standing.

Machinery should be on solid bases, people can accommodate where and what they stand on..

 

[JeffSmith]

Accommodate the lathe and yourself, set the lathe on the concrete, fasten it, and lay plywood or other where you are going to be walking and standing

Machinery should be on solid bases, people can accommodate where and what they stand on..

Not everyone has that option - I'd need to pour a stack 6' high x 3' wide x 8' long to accommodate concrete under my lathe. That's assuming I'd have a footing to put it on. Good foundation footings, sistered or doubled joists on short runs and additional support from below get the job done for about 1,000 pounds of lathe. Besides, concrete costs are double on an island served by a small ferry (not an exageration and not including the cost of the pump to get it to the shop site).

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I find that a lot of posters give ideal situation recommendations. In the end, you can only do what you can do and that may not be close to an ideal situation. If one of your choices is not to leave things as they are then, what I would suggest is move the lathe to the new spot. If you get noticeable vibration, then start attempting to eliminate it.

If the wood floor is solidly mounted direclyt on the concrete, then possibly borrowing or renting a hammer drill, drill some additional holes around the lathe at least for securing the wood with masonry screws/bolts (with countersunk bolts so they are flush with the surface).

If the wood floor is secured onto regular support 2 X 2's or 2 X 4's, then add more screws to secure the floor to the supports, especially around the lathe. It's possible that, over time (if the floor is old), some of the screws have let loose or, if nails were used. If the floor was put down with the correct kind of adhesive, it's possible that there are places the adhesive let loose and adding screws should help fix that.

In your case, since the lathe weighs 600 pounds, additional weight shouldn't be necessary.

Also, after you move the lathe, make sure the head and tail stocks line up and meet. Even if the lathe is level, that might not mean head and tail stock are in alignment. With a 600 pound lathe I doubt this is much and issue but it's worth checking.

These are all relatively easy to do and steps I would take if I noticed vibration so just suggestions. Be curious to see what the result of your move is.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Not everyone has that option - I'd need to pour a stack 6' high x 3' wide x 8' long to accommodate concrete under my lathe. That's assuming I'd have a footing to put it on. Good foundation footings, sistered or doubled joists on short runs and additional support from below get the job done for about 1,000 pounds of lathe. Besides, concrete costs are double on an island served by a small ferry (not an exageration and not including the cost of the pump to get it to the shop site).

When you go to a special place like that, you will have to accommodate to that, though the OP does not seem to have your problems.

As for yours, there are steel pipes that could be taking a lot of the stress and minimize some of the vibration, though you might have to do some digging to hit the rocky mountain to set the pillar pipes on, then use this to help stabilize the floor and lathe.

 

[Mark Fairchild]

Rip,
My whole concrete shop floor is covered with 3/4” hard rubber stall mats. The kind used for horse stalls. Both of my lathes sit on this. If there is any vibration, I can’t tell it. Even though these mats are hard, my back loves them. Also they are very forgiving when you drop a tool or project.

 

[Rip Littig]

I'm circling back regarding my choice of flooring under the lathe. I decided on concrete for my entire shop with several coats of 100% solids epoxy on top of that. I'm amazed how sturdy the lathe is. I didn't think I had vibration on wood flooring over 2 x 4's but clearly I did. Not anymore. If my back starts to hurt I'll raise the lathe and put a rubber mat under my feet. As a side note, I really like the epoxy with color chips on top of concrete. It's easy to clean, durable and looks great. It will undoubtedly scratch over time but with chips it'll be hard to see. Thank you all for the feedback this past January!

 

[Steve Tiedman]

I agree with your conclusion, Rip. All machine tools (shy of small benchtop equipment) need to be on the most solid base possible, that will always be concrete.

Properly built wood floor systems really do not provide a significant amount of flex or shock absorption to the human body as one may think in a shop environment, in particular when built on top of a concrete slab. If a wood floor is noticably springy or bouncy to any degree that you can feel, or lets machine vibration take hold, it's not built right. I think there is a lot more placebo effect involved than reality. (Would a 16oz wood mallet really smash your thumb any less than a 16oz steel hammer? Okay, that was dramatic, but still...) Rubber mats at your "standing locations" and proper, appropriate footwear (including replacement shoe insoles with good arch support to replace the ineffective factory shoe insoles) will go much farther to provide a good, comfortable environment for your body, including shock protection against the unforgiving concrete floor, and ever so slightly less unforgiving properly built wood floor. And don't forget to step away from the lathe, bench, or similar once or twice an hour to move and stretch your body (feet, legs, back, shoulders, neck, arms, hands), and frankly to shake the cobwebs from your highly focused attention span. You may find yourself popping less advil at the end of the day.