Finish over Sanding Paste

[William Rogers]

I have made sanding paste using mineral oil, beeswax, and diatomaceous earth and a second batch adding some carnauba wax. I have never really used either one except as a test to see if they worked. The reason is I have always been concerned if I applied a finish over it there would be problems, i.e. mineral oil never cures and the wax. Those that use sanding paste are their “safe” film or oil finished that can be applied? Are there finishes to be avoided?

 

[Wally Crawford]

William-I posted a similar question a couple weeks ago

https://www.aawforum.org/community/threads/when-do-you-use-polishing-paste.22940/post-247334

Your home brew contains wax and mineral oil which I think will preclude you from using any other finish over top.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I don't have a lot of experience, but I regularly use Tried and True Original over Yorkshire Grit or Ack's sanding polish. The only difference I see in finished pieces with or without the sanding paste, is that the pieces have slightly more gloss on the pieces with the paste.

 

[Steve Worcester]

William-I posted a similar question a couple weeks ago

https://www.aawforum.org/community/threads/when-do-you-use-polishing-paste.22940/post-247334

Your home brew contains wax and mineral oil which I think will preclude you from using any other finish over top.

Except more wax based products

 

[William Rogers]

My thinking was you cannot put any film finish over a paste with mineral oil. Not sure about something like walnut oil or tung oil. I used the mineral oil as that was the most common recipe found and supposedly it is in Yorkshire Grit. Not sure about Acks. Now wondering if the paste could be made using walnut oil or tung oil instead of mineral oil for a more durable finish. If I was to do that again I would also add carnauba wax. I really don’t know if there is an advantage to using a paste on bowls. Seems like it is more trouble than it is worth.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'm not a fan of oil/wax/grit mixtures, but I always thought that stuff was intended to be used over a gloss film finish to knock it down to satin or matte. I wouldn't use it on bare wood. However, the trouble I see with diatomaceous earth is that it can range from fine to almost as coarse as pumice so you need to be sure of what you are getting.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Just thinking this through... the mineral oil penetrates but never cures, that will mess with film finishes. Wax is a surface treatment and that's where it wants to stay, and will mess with film finishes. The d. earth is your abrasive and will theoretically be thoroughly wiped off the surface, unless some stays in the wax which is imbedded in microscratches the eye can't see, which can mess with film surfaces. Penetrating/curing finishes tung or linseed oil, may not care so much about these other foreign substances remaining in place. Maybe.

Only once did I ever use a similar process, rottenstone mixed with a little straight dishsoap, in high school shop class almost 40 years ago. It was used post-surface finish cure (Deft lacquer?) as a way to knock down high sheen and improve the finish surface.

I'm not keen on products like these on bare wood. I can only think, why bother? If I follow a normal sanding protocol up to 320 or 400 grit, then burnish the surface with a handful of thin shavings (no bark or thick, heaving shavings), I can get a wonderfully smooth surface free of any scratch patterns, ready for a finish of your choosing. Even paper grocery bag works well as a substitute to shavings for a final burnish of the surface, and it's MUCH cheaper than 2000 grit abrasive paper. William, I agree with your doubts.

To me, these products sound more like a way to separate a woodturner from their money. The catalogs never have enough methods for that, it seems.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I'm not a fan of oil/wax/grit mixtures, but I always thought that stuff was intended to be used over a gloss film finish to knock it down to satin or matte. I wouldn't use it on bare wood. However, the trouble I see with diatomaceous earth is that it can range from fine to almost as coarse as pumice so you need to be sure of what you are getting.

I use it on bare wood all the time. I believe that is the primary use case.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

I use it on bare wood all the time. I believe that is the primary use case.

Yes, that's what I've seen done, too.
Kent, when you use a sanding paste on bare wood, do you apply other finishes? What and how?

 

[Bernie Kopfer]

I use it on bare wood all the time. I believe that is the primary use case.

That is how i use it too. Craft Supplies’ Scratch Freee is my favorite. Their video on the product is informative

Dr. Kirk's Scratch FREEE Woodturners Polishing Wax

Dr. Kirk's Scratch-FREEE Woodturner's Polishing Wax is a special blend of premium oils, waxes and ultra-fine tripoli abrasive that’s guaranteed to improve sanded surfaces by 4 times or more. Approx. 1,500 grit Ideal for sanding and polishing all types of raw and stabilized woods in preparation...

woodturnerscatalog.com

 

[Bob Hall]

Usually I do several coats of shellac as a sealer and thin I use the Acks abrasive past to polish and as a final finish I apply several coats of the Acks wax buffing between coats.

This is pretty typical of the final finish. Hinoki cypress with an African Blackwood rim.

Bob

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Yes, that's what I've seen done, too.
Kent, when you use a sanding paste on bare wood, do you apply other finishes? What and how?

I don't always use the sanding paste on bowls. Sometimes I forget, sometimes I am going for a more satin finish, sometimes the wood isn't conducive, and so on.

Most of the time my process is:

- Sand to 220.
- (Optional) Apply shellac as a base coat/sanding sealer. Sometimes I skip the shellac altogether.
- Sand to 320 (sometimes 400).
- Wipe down with alcohol or whatever you normally use.
- Apply the polishing paste.
- Apply the final finish. I mostly use Tried and True Original on bowls. For display pieces I use other finishes like Ack's polishing compound, Myland's, shellac, or maybe wipe-on poly.

I'm not sure about putting on the shellac after I've already sanded to 220. When used in this manner, I'm applying a sanding sealer to just the final sanding. I guess that's OK.

Edit: I should add that you can just stop after the polishing paste and call that your finish.

 

[Bill Boehme]

To me, these products sound more like a way to separate a woodturner from their money. The catalogs never have enough methods for that, it seems.

I agree. By the way, Rottenstone is basically the same grit as Tripoli. Tripoli sounds more exotic, so you pay more for it. I have a container of rottenstone that I bought ages ago. Back then, it was dirt cheap (excuse the pun). They're probably marketing it as tripoli now.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

I've thought about this thread, and similar threads, over the past day or so. This comment isn't aimed at anyone, any product, or any process. But...

Over all the years (29 since I first bought a lathe) I've had other turners in my life, in-person or on the web, the general concensus is to have a high quality prepped wood surface followed by a high quality finish (film or penetrating). But as I often watch this game from the out in the cheap seats, I'm observing that turners chase and chase the latest finishes to the point where we, as a collective, are getting away from the notion of "it's finished, but seems natural", to that not being good enough, and we want more and more to the point where the wood goods we make are starting to look, well, plastic again.

Folks, I'll say that this notion doesn't work for me. Through it all over time, whether I've mixed my own wiping varnish recipe or used some oil straight from the can, my goal has be to "finish" to that point one step before a film would interfere between my fingertips and that natural surface.

Someone once said, don't sacrifice the very good, or your personal best, by chasing the impossible. If we make it look so good that others think that there is no way it was made by hand (as much as a manual lathe allows for, anyway), then their perception becomes the reality. I don't ever want someone to mistake anything I make by hand with something that rolls out of a high-tech factory.

(Opinion-based philosophising complete.)

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

I've thought about this thread, and similar threads, over the past day or so. This comment isn't aimed at anyone, any product, or any process. But...

Over all the years (29 since I first bought a lathe) I've had other turners in my life, in-person or on the web, the general concensus is to have a high quality prepped wood surface followed by a high quality finish (film or penetrating). But as I often watch this game from the out in the cheap seats, I'm observing that turners chase and chase the latest finishes to the point where we, as a collective, are getting away from the notion of "it's finished, but seems natural", to that not being good enough, and we want more and more to the point where the wood goods we make are starting to look, well, plastic again.

Folks, I'll say that this notion doesn't work for me. Through it all over time, whether I've mixed my own wiping varnish recipe or used some oil straight from the can, my goal has be to "finish" to that point one step before a film would interfere between my fingertips and that natural surface.

Someone once said, don't sacrifice the very good, or your personal best, by chasing the impossible. If we make it look so good that others think that there is no way it was made by hand (as much as a manual lathe allows for, anyway), then their perception becomes the reality. I don't ever want someone to mistake anything I make by hand with something that rolls out of a high-tech factory.

(Opinion-based philosophising complete.)

That is why I put my glassy lacquer finish on the outside of my boxes, and leave the wood unfinished on the inside. This makes it look polished and hand turned, but never manufactured. That is what I like about boxes, you can have two different finish types.

 

[Paul May]

As a 40+ year maker of flat work I have eventually gravitated to a French polish finish of sorts with a satin or matte appearance. Tight grained hardwoods take an oil well when sanded appropriately. Shellac, followed by wax when used sparingly can do wonders for an appearance but is not very durable which is ok if it is a display piece. My finish consists of an oil followed by Ack's followed by Carnauba wax. It is a finish that showcases the wood and feels good in the hand. It also is easy for an owner to refurbish the shine when needed. Nothing fancy. Oh yes I also sand to 220 and burnish with shavings or sand to 400 (rarely). It is amazing what burnishing does to a finish.

 

[William Rogers]

When I first posted this I was thinking the sanding paste was used before a finish and wanted to know if there was problems. I now think @Bill Boehme is correct in that it should be used post finish. Yorkshire Grit instructions are to put two coats of sanding sealer before using the paste. I didn’t find any information applying finish over it. I think my use would only be to use it after an oil finish similar to what @Paul May does. I’m thinking I would let the oil cure first. There is at least one turner in our club that applies it directly to the wood. My concern would be long term effect since it does contain mineral oil and bees wax. I don’t know if the finish would eventually start to chip because of lack of adhesion.
@Steve Tiedman I don’t disagree with you. That type of “gloss” is usually with some type of film finish like polyurethane or an epoxy. For bowls I almost always use an oil finish. With oil I think you get that warm feel. I also use lacquer for small boxes. I have been finishing them inside and out. However reading @Gabriel Hoff finish for boxes, I may use the paste on the inside. Not sure if I will apply sanding sealer first.

My conclusion is the paste is similar to doing the Beall buff after the finish is applied.