Final sanding grit: How far can you go while allowing finish to penetrate?

[Rip Littig]

I've been sanding (polishing) with fine grits lately and am concerned it'll prevent my finish from penetrating the wood. Some commercial finishes like Tried & True Original recommend stopping at a certain point (i.e. 400). The glossy look of fine grit polishing can be attractive but I'd like to know my finish is working properly. Recently I've been using Mahoney's Utility Finish (walnut oil). Perhaps for ornamental pieces it's better to not use a finish at all and for utilitarian items stop at 320 or 400 grit then apply a finish. Any thoughts are appreciated. I tried searching this topic but couldn't find it. It's probably embedded in a sanding thread with a slightly different subject. Thanks in advance for any helpful information.

 

[hockenbery]

It is wood dependent.

What I do is sand domestic hardwoods to 320. Last sanding with the grain.
My go to finish is Waterlox.
Sand the first finish coat with 400.
Cut back subsequent finish coated with scotch bright grey.
The grain of the domestic hardwoods is much coarser than 320



Fine grained Ebony is another animal. It is like glass. It has to be sanded at least to 1000 since 600 grit scratches can be seen in its surface

 

[Tim Tucker]

You will find that penetrating finishes ( oils in particular ) will penetrate no matter how fine you sand. The old "the pores will close up" is a mere mis-understanding of reality. ( I hope that was diplomatic enough....)

We sand to smooth the surface and remove scratches. Not fill pores. So they are present even at high grits. The Sapele platter pictured below was sanded to 3000, then walnut oil was applied. It soaked right in. Allowed to dry, then dry buffed.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

I routinely sand to p1200 grit. I finish with either polyurethane or hardwax oil without problems.

If you are using a pigment stain then the color of the wood will be less dark as there are fewer nooks and crannies on the wood surface to collect pigment. Not sure about dyes, but I think they would be less effected.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Interesting thread. I never considered that sanding to a high grit could affect the finish. I only sand to up to 1200 some of my boxes because I use some of the densests woods in the world. In fact, if I start sanding at 320 and you can clearly see the sanding scratches.

 

[odie]

Where did this false belief start?

There is no question this belief that sanding to a fine grit prevents finishes from penetrating is believed by some, otherwise fine turners. I suspect that somewhere, there is a respected turner, or teacher of woodturning that believes this is true, and quite a few new turners are influenced by this incorrect notion.....and, if you've ever lived in a small town, you know how these rumors spread!

For a newbie turner, it's easy to believe, because it gives them a reason (excuse) why they shouldn't sand to a high level of surface preparation. With some species, it's additionally easy to believe this, because some woods just don't absorb the finish as well as others. It may have no appearance of penetrating for 15 or 20 minutes, but lo-and-behold, a few dry spots do begin to appear. The finish itself isn't drying in that short of time, so the only rational conclusion is penetration is happening, but slow to occur.

I can't remember the last time I didn't sand to at least 600gt, no matter what the species, or prior expectations I had. It may take some time with some species, but if you wait and see, there is always indication that penetration is occurring.

-----odie-----

 

[Bill Blasic]

I generally sand to 320 grit and occasionally use 400 grit. The only thing that see 1200 grit in my shop are pens that will be CA finished.

 

[john lucas]

I did a test years ago where I sanded to different grits and then applied different finishes. As long as there arent visible scratches people could not see the difference beyond 400 grit. I have found that some woods will.show those scratches up to 800. Apparently the finish fills the scratches on a lot of woods and my fellow turners could not see the difference. I used oil and film finishes. Since that experiment I have moved up to 600 grit not for the better finish appearance but it reduces the number of coats of finish required to get the same finish apoearance.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

If you're talking about fine grit sandpaper it's really REALLY important to be clear what grading system is being used. As you can see from the attached pdf (courtesy of Finger Lakes Woodturners), above 220 there is a big difference between the old USA standard (CAMI) and the now more common European standard (FEPA).

A paper that's FEPA 1200 is closer to 600-700 on the CAMI scale.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Where did this false belief start?

There is no question this belief that sanding to a fine grit prevents finishes from penetrating is believed by some, otherwise fine turners. I suspect that somewhere, there is a respected turner, or teacher of woodturning that believes this is true, and quite a few new turners are influenced by this incorrect notion.....and, if you've ever lived in a small town, you know how these rumors spread!

For a newbie turner, it's easy to believe, because it gives them a reason (excuse) why they shouldn't sand to a high level of surface preparation. With some species, it's additionally easy to believe this, because some woods just don't absorb the finish as well as others. It may have no appearance of penetrating for 15 or 20 minutes, but lo-and-behold, a few dry spots do begin to appear. The finish itself isn't drying in that short of time, so the only rational conclusion is penetration is happening, but slow to occur.

I can't remember the last time I didn't sand to at least 600gt, no matter what the species, or prior expectations I had. It may take some time with some species, but if you wait and see, there is always indication that penetration is occurring.

-----odie-----

Well I first learned this belief from Steve Worcester, the guy who's business is selling sanding discs to woodturners (https://www.turningwood.com/store/). I believe that he knows what he is talking about.

 

[robo hippy]

I sand to 400, then apply walnut oil from the Doctor's Woodshop with the grey synthetic steel wool pads. When I made furniture, I had my work sprayed. They didn't want anything sanded beyond 220. The reasoning was that beyond that, you were pretty much burnishing the wood surface, and the spray finishes would not adhere well to the wood. With paint grade woods, they want sanding to stop at about 150, for the same reason since paint is mostly pigment and doesn't have much 'binding' ability, which is why primers are used, but now there are paints that are 'all in one'. Any type of penetrating oil will soak in, and it seems that it doesn't make any differences what grit you sand to. Some woods will benefit greatly from sanding to really high grits, which to me is 2000+. Koa is one, true Cuban mahogany and Oregon myrtle/California Bay Laurel are some others. They really glow if you do that. This is not practical for daily use items.

As for filling pores, if I needed to do that, I would wet sand with finish on the wood, probably 220 and up. The slurry will fill most pores.

robo hippy

 

[odie]

Well now......seems a can-o-worms has been opened with this thread!

The answer may be contained within Robo's post:

I sand to 400, then apply walnut oil from the Doctor's Woodshop with the grey synthetic steel wool pads. When I made furniture, I had my work sprayed. They didn't want anything sanded beyond 220. The reasoning was that beyond that, you were pretty much burnishing the wood surface, and the spray finishes would not adhere well to the wood. With paint grade woods, they want sanding to stop at about 150, for the same reason since paint is mostly pigment and doesn't have much 'binding' ability, which is why primers are used, but now there are paints that are 'all in one'. Any type of penetrating oil will soak in, and it seems that it doesn't make any differences what grit you sand to. Some woods will benefit greatly from sanding to really high grits, which to me is 2000+. Koa is one, true Cuban mahogany and Oregon myrtle/California Bay Laurel are some others. They really glow if you do that. This is not practical for daily use items.

As for filling pores, if I needed to do that, I would wet sand with finish on the wood, probably 220 and up. The slurry will fill most pores.

robo hippy

If all of the above is true (and I suspect it is)......then the type of finish you use is the key to the application of the concept. I have highlighted what appears to apply to my particular method of finishing bowls.....and, this may not apply to someone else's finishing methods.....unless they are exactly the same as mine.

The key to understanding all of this, is the concept that fine sanding prevents penetration of the finish is not a universal concept (as some people seem to be applying it)......but entirely dependent on the finishing method used...

-----odie-----

 

[Tim Tucker]

I will possibly sacrifice myself, by rolling another grenade in....

1. Woodturners LOVE to turn, and make shavings fly - and most woodturners HATE to sand. I understand. They would rather be turning.....
2. Those of us who come from a furniture making background were trained that in order to get the customer's attention... the FINISH was the thing that catches their eye when comparing pieces of otherwise similar style.
3. The better sanded - not the same necessarily as the MORE sanded - ....but can mean "sanded to a higher grit " a piece is, then more likely to get the customer's attention - because - what the eye sees as beautiful....the hand wants to touch......so when they touch the piece, the feel of better - possibly higher grit sanded finish - feels much nicer.

For me this is without question and is time tested.

 

[Aaron Harris]

Ask any dozen woodturners how to sand and finish lol. It's cool how everyone has such a different approach that works for them. I usually sand my bowls to 600, though sometimes to 800 or 1k. I have found that even with the densest, close-grained domestic hardwoods such as dogwood or bradford pear, even at 1k, they will drink up numerous light coats of TruOil gunstock finish, which is my current favorite. It probably helps that I thin it with mineral spirits.

As others have stated, the super-dense, oily tropicals like ebony or anything from the dahlbergia family are another animal. Sanded to high grit, they often polish up naturally with their own internal oils, so I usually don't try to put a finish on those (though I'm always experimenting).

 

[Doug Freeman]

@robo hippy said it before I could. I also do a “close grain” unfilled finish on flat work, which is more akin to turning finishes, and requires higher grit - a bit like a Sam Maloof finish in look and feel.

I typically go to p800 for turnings. Most human eyes cannot see those scratches. If a particular type of wood requires it I’ll go higher, but I dont deal with tropical stuff much.

Sanding method also plays a big role. Recently I started using an 8mm ros electric “polisher” vs the air ~4mm ros. The longer throw actually seems to do better with overall scratch visibility of higher grits, which was a pleasant surprise.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Never found sanding above 400, which I almost never do, impacts the woods ability to soak up oil or any "non surface" finish. I suspect it came from the surface finish world where sanding to 220 was sufficient and needed for the finish to grab onto and the surface finish would fill in any feel of roughness to the touch. If you put on surface poly then you're feeling the poly, not the wood. I'll stop at 320 on woods like oak where it doesn't, to me, make any difference going beyond that. 400 for most everything else is where I stop. I think it was one of Robo's videos where he said beyond 400 you're polishing more than sanding. I do find that sometimes a high speed buff with the grey pads (dry) can put a nicer sheen on the wood before applying oil. I use an air hose to blow pieces off before I apply oil just to get the dust out the way.

 

[Steve Worcester]

A lot of it depends on the expected result. If it is a utility bowl with an oil or wax finish, usually the higher grit is a point of diminishing returns. With a film finish, you definitely want a bite for the finish to adhere to and the finish is going go on in several coats, each filling in the previous ones "micro-valleys".
One of the issues with finer and finer sanding with a penetrating finish is, if you aren't taking care to blow of the dust from sanding, would may very well be clogging the pores and you won't get good penetration either.

 

[Steve Worcester]

If you're talking about fine grit sandpaper it's really REALLY important to be clear what grading system is being used. As you can see from the attached pdf (courtesy of Finger Lakes Woodturners), above 220 there is a big difference between the old USA standard (CAMI) and the now more common European standard (FEPA).

A paper that's FEPA 1200 is closer to 600-700 on the CAMI scale.

CAMI used to be US only and I'm not sure there is actually any US manufactured abrasives anymore. Do you know who uses it?
Regardless, using the same brand or system gets you to the same place. There isn't alot of sandpaper above 600/800 really targeted at wood.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Oh yeah, I forgot to answer the original question - never found hi grit sanding to prevent the wood from soaking up oil type finishes. A glossy burnished surface may cause some beading initially but once the fibers get wet capillary action takes over and pulls the oil into the wood.

So, the higher the surface finish the longer the oil will take to soak in, but all said and done not a lot of difference in how much ends up in the wood.

I use the term oil loosely here - any long open time finish - the various antique oils, tung, walnut, even thinned poly behave similarly. Viscosity has a large impact vs how much the wood soaks up.

 

[robo hippy]

I was at one show with some of my furniture and another woodworker commented that the table he was looking at had to be sanded to at least 600 grit. He was dumbfounded when I told him I only went to 220. He did comment that the guys who did my spray work really knew what they were doing. Just one reason why I don't finish my own furniture pieces.... I don't really like a high gloss finish on any of my pieces.

robo hippy

 

[Marc Banka]

Interesting that some are making a distinction between sanding and polishing. The only difference is the size of scratches. Both are abrasive operations. Maybe ‘visible scratches’ is the difference. Personally, I don’t use lack of visible scratches as my cue to stop my surface prep, but as an indicator that I can move to the final stretch. To me, that’s moving on to higher grit paper. All work, all woods are sanded to 2000.
The work done to get to 320, raise the grain, then 320 again is the hard work. After that it’s all fun. As I move through 4, 6, 8 hundred, the dull, but smooth and scratch free surface becomes mat, then a glow begins, and working to 2000 gives a shine, even on woods like Sweetgum,Oak and Ash. Moving through the higher grits is pretty quick too
I‘m not sure how much difference it makes on a heavy film finish. I use oil and wax, or shellac and wax. With either of these I get the shine I like, and have no need for buffing afterwards.
I spend more time sanding than many folks, ‘polishing’ the surface, but little time applying finish, and then smoothing and buffing (polishing) the finish.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I think Reed had it with his first comments, this comes from the flat woodworking world. I think it is even referred to in Flexner's (the finish guru) book on finishing. Of course Flat woodworks do not use penetrating oil so may be a mote point in that respect.

I sometime go to 1000 or 2000 but only on very small items. I usually stop at 400. Have never seen and difference in penetration due to grit used.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

I think Reed had it with his first comments, this comes from the flat woodworking world. I think it is even referred to in Flexner's (the finish guru) book on finishing. Of course Flat woodworks do not use penetrating oil so may be a mote point in that respect.

I sometime go to 1000 or 2000 but only on very small items. I usually stop at 400. Have never seen and difference in penetration due to grit used.

I use oil on all my furniture --Waterlox.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I use oil on all my furniture --Waterlox.

Waterlox is a oil based film finish . What I refer to is oils like Tung or Danish oil. Of coarse Danish has poly or some type hardening resin in it.

 

[Richard Coers]

Polished wood will not take a stain or paint well, no issues with clear finishes.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Polished wood will not take a stain or paint well, no issues with clear finishes.

Some confuse “stain” and “dye”. Pigmented stain and paint dont do well, but dye will absorb and color polished wood.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Of course Flat woodworks do not use penetrating oil so may be a mote point in that respect.

Danish Oil was first developed as a finish for flat work and is a durable and easily renewable finish that does not break away when dented like a film finish.
The other point relative to this thread is that an oil finish will raise the grain when applied and the method to address this, as instructed on the original Watco cans, is to wet sand with wet oil after a soaking period time.
The house I built in 2005 and currently live in does not have any film finish on the inside wood work except for the red oak board paneling on the vaulted ceilings, which got 1 coat of sanding sealer as they were installed. The inside trim and all built in cabinets are made of native red oak and finished with Watco medium walnut oil topped with Watco satin wax.

This is a walnut cremation Urn finished with clear Watco oil photographed in front of the appliance garage in my kitchen in about 2014.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I have for many years already used only PTO (Polymerized Tung Oil), and never had any problems with that finish, even if I sand to 2000, though usually I stop at 6 or 800, even sometime polish the wood before putting the PTO on it.
This is a Black Walnut bowl with a shiny surface, as you look at this you can see the pores on in the wood, and that is the case with all woods, being that some wood have very small pores, the oil will penetrate into those pores even if the pores surrounding surface is very smooth.

 

[odie]

The other point relative to this thread is that an oil finish will raise the grain when applied and the method to address this, as instructed on the original Watco cans, is to wet sand with wet oil after a soaking period time.

Hi Don....

(Or, anyone else who'd like to comment about the following.)

I haven't heard of this wet sanding technique that you mention in your post above, and would like to do some experimenting with with it after the initial coat of Danish oil is applied and dry.

The problems I've been having is some very fine 600gt sanding scratches are just not visible to me prior to applying the DO (Danish Oil).....but only after the DO is fully dried do they become apparent. What I have been doing in the past, is some random orbit (by hand) using 800gt sandpaper after the DO has dried. This seems to work relatively well, but would like to try some wet sanding. My problem is using sandpaper for wet sanding.....just doesn't work very well, and the paper isn't very flexible for going around curved, or uneven surfaces.

In the past, I've done some wet sanding with DO and steel wool. IMHO, this doesn't work that well, because strands of steel wool will become embedded in the wood, and will discolor and rust over time.

Has anyone tried to wet sand a dried application of DO, using a subsequent application of the DO in conjunction with Scotchbrite pads? If so, how well does this work? It does seem like the Scotchbrite would conform to curves and uneven surfaces a little better. Off hand, it does seem like the moment you introduce wet DO again, those pesky little sanding scratches would instantly become invisible.....again!

I am typing from memory at the moment, so correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the grades of Scotchbrite are as follows:

Maroon....... 320gt
Green........... 600gt
Grey............. 800gt
White.......... 1000gt

-----odie-----

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Danish Oil was first developed as a finish for flat work and is a durable and easily renewable finish that does not break away when dented like a film finish.
The other point relative to this thread is that an oil finish will raise the grain when applied and the method to address this, as instructed on the original Watco cans, is to wet sand with wet oil after a soaking period time.
The house I built in 2005 and currently live in does not have any film finish on the inside wood work except for the red oak board paneling on the vaulted ceilings, which got 1 coat of sanding sealer as they were installed. The inside trim and all built in cabinets are made of native red oak and finished with Watco medium walnut oil topped with Watco satin wax.

Never seen that in homes in the South. Wonder if it is either area specific or special request of builder??

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Never seen that in homes in the South. Wonder if it is either area specific or special request of builder??

I don't think any commercial builders would use that method anywhere however I have rediscovered danish oil as an interior finish. The house I live in now was put up and closed in by a contractor and then I finished the entire inside including the interior walls & trim and of the cabinetry so I had complete control of the finishing process.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Hi Don....

(Or, anyone else who'd like to comment about the following.)

I haven't heard of this wet sanding technique that you mention in your post above, and would like to do some experimenting with with it after the initial coat of Danish oil is applied and dry.

The problems I've been having is some very fine 600gt sanding scratches are just not visible to me prior to applying the DO (Danish Oil).....but only after the DO is fully dried do they become apparent. What I have been doing in the past, is some random orbit (by hand) using 800gt sandpaper. This seems to work relatively well, but would like to try some wet sanding. My problem is using sandpaper for wet sanding.....just doesn't work very well, and the paper isn't very flexible for going around curved, or uneven surfaces.

In the past, I've done some wet sanding with DO and steel wool. IMHO, this doesn't work that well, because strands of steel wool will become embedded in the wood, and will discolor and rust over time.

Has anyone tried to wet sand a dried application of DO, using a subsequent application of the DO in conjunction with Scotchbrite pads? If so, how well does this work? It does seem like the Scotchbrite would conform to curves and uneven surfaces a little better. Off hand, it does seem like the moment you introduce wet DO again, those pesky little sanding scratches would instantly become invisible.....again!

I am typing from memory at the moment, so correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the grades of Scotchbrite are as follows:

Maroon....... 320gt
Green........... 600gt
Grey............. 800gt
White.......... 1000gt

-----odie-----

The way the wet sanding is done on flat work is to use wet or dry paper with the grain before the wipe down of each application, then after at least a day dry sanding before the next application and repeat the wet sand /wipe down.
The Scotchbrite would be a likely better way to go on turnings so try it and let us know how it works.

 

[Tom Gall]

Odie, not speaking from experience here since I can't remember the last time I did wet sanding - but, I think the foam backed abrasives might work better (even for dry sanding) than the woven pads. I know that the 3M brand has more available grits than some other sources/brands (i.e. - fine, superfine, microfine, ultra fine). Not cheap, but they last a long time.

 

[odie]

Odie, not speaking from experience here since I can't remember the last time I did wet sanding - but, I think the foam backed abrasives might work better (even for dry sanding) than the woven pads. I know that the 3M brand has more available grits than some other sources/brands (i.e. - fine, superfine, microfine, ultra fine). Not cheap, but they last a long time.

Hiya Tom......

Since I last posted, someone from the forum has offered to send me some of the foam backed abrasives for a test. They are on the way, and I'll soon give them a hands-on test.

I have some of the Scotchbrite on hand, and will be giving them a test-run for wet sanding in the next couple days.

-----odie-----

 

[Doug Freeman]

@odie I have wet sanded with both blo and poly, and mixtures of the 2. Not a DO fan, but the blo/poly mix approximates it. Both flat and turned work. Easier to do with flat work as the grain isnt changing as much.

Difficult to do by hand on turnings. I rotate the piece on the lathe at 100 rpm, slow as I can go. As you surmised correctly that getting rid of visible scratches that way is difficult. The grey scotchbrite is too coarse and the white doesnt do a lot.

I have the same issue - scratches after I start applying finish. I wasnt pleased with the process of wet sanding (I now use it to fill small defects if needed, like punky tear out) so I worked at changing the process - get better at surface prep to do away with the scratches.

I had been using the short stroke ros mini air sander from HF. It worked fine but I wasnt pleased with the finish - I could see “paths” of scratching even with 800 gr, and I didnt like the air consumption.

I was never willing to buy an expensive small electric ros. I found a relatively small random orbit polisher on amazon for ~$80. Came with a 3” backer. I got a thread adapter and mounted the 2” backer from the air ros, since all my discs etc are 2”. It has an 8mm orbit, bs about 1/2 that for the air ros. I’ve been pleased with the final surface it creates, I think the larger orbit actually helps.

With a drill I found I got some deeper scratches that were difficult to remove, and the orbit motion gives me a more consistent scratch pattern.

I now use the drill to get an even surface, ie any heavy sanding, whether I start with 120 or 220. Just depends, but I usually switch to the ros by 180gr, up through 800. Much closer inspection before applying finish. I’m creating and missing fewer and fewer scratches.

 

[odie]

@odie I have wet sanded with both blo and poly, and mixtures of the 2. Not a DO fan, but the blo/poly mix approximates it. Both flat and turned work. Easier to do with flat work as the grain isnt changing as much.

Difficult to do by hand on turnings. I rotate the piece on the lathe at 100 rpm, slow as I can go. As you surmised correctly that getting rid of visible scratches that way is difficult. The grey scotchbrite is too coarse and the white doesnt do a lot.

I have the same issue - scratches after I start applying finish. I wasnt pleased with the process of wet sanding (I now use it to fill small defects if needed, like punky tear out) so I worked at changing the process - get better at surface prep to do away with the scratches.

I had been using the short stroke ros mini air sander from HF. It worked fine but I wasnt pleased with the finish - I could see “paths” of scratching even with 800 gr, and I didnt like the air consumption.

I was never willing to buy an expensive small electric ros. I found a relatively small random orbit polisher on amazon for ~$80. Came with a 3” backer. I got a thread adapter and mounted the 2” backer from the air ros, since all my discs etc are 2”. It has an 8mm orbit, bs about 1/2 that for the air ros. I’ve been pleased with the final surface it creates, I think the larger orbit actually helps.

With a drill I found I got some deeper scratches that were difficult to remove, and the orbit motion gives me a more consistent scratch pattern.

I now use the drill to get an even surface, ie any heavy sanding, whether I start with 120 or 220. Just depends, but I usually switch to the ros by 180gr, up through 800. Much closer inspection before applying finish. I’m creating and missing fewer and fewer scratches.

OK, thanks for responding, Doug.....

I did some experimenting last night with double stick tape to 800gt sandpaper, and then sticking it to a foam backer. I used this for RO by hand off the lathe. Surprisingly, this did a very decent job. Not sure that I'll go with this permanently, but it is better than what I had been doing. It appears that the only way to get rid of these scratches, is by random orbit.....either by hand, or machine. (note: I have a Grex RO pneumatic sander, but I've found for this particular purpose, doing it by hand is just as good.....and my preferred method at the moment.)

When I get some commercial abrasive attached to a foam backer (It's in the mail), I'll try doing the wet RO by hand. As do you, I have my doubts about success with wet sanding, because the very tiny, and faint 600gt scratches that were only visible when the DO was dry, will likely disappear when applying the DO again. There will be no confirmation that I've done any good at all, until the DO dries again. If any further touch up is needed, then that would require using yet another application of DO.....All of this is theoretical at this point, but sounds like a hassle to me. I need to know for sure, and the only way to find out, is by a hands-on test.

-----odie-----

 

[Michael Nathal]

I wonder if Beall buffing would be successful in removing those fine scratches in the DO

 

[odie]

I wonder if Beall buffing would be successful in removing those fine scratches in the DO

I can answer that, Michael......No.

Note, Michael......The problem has been solved, just looking for a better method.

-----odie-----

 

[robo hippy]

Well, I think the grey synthetic steel wool pads are in that 600 to 800 grit range, and they are the final step with my bowls. I have put one on a hook pad, and they do hold at low speeds, for one final pass on some really warped madrone burl pieces that I did not want to sand the 3D texture out of. Leaves a matt finish. I used to like the Deft Danish oil for my furniture, but I don't think they make it any more. Only bad thing about the Deft was that it took at least a month for it to offgas.

robo hippy