fastening material to waste block - methods

[Perry Hilbert]

Last night at my club, the demonstrator used epoxy to fasten wood to his face block. But for epoxy and some other items the joint is considered waste. I have seen on line where people used double sided tape, hot glue and wood glue. I want to "face turn" a small flat piece of bone about 1.5 to 2 inches in diameter x 1/4 inch thick into a flat picture pendant, perhaps some flat water buffalo horn or antler as well. I am afraid epoxy would ruin the piece when separated. Is there a glue that will soften and release when heated to a reasonable non-burn temperature or would tape work. . Any other suggestions welcome.

 

[Phil Hamel]

I've seen plenty of people that use hot glue to hold pieces. When done you can put alcohol on it to soften or microwave and it will come off.

 

[Dean Center]

Either good quality double sided tape, which can be easily released with a little alcohol, or hot melt glue, which can be parted off if it's between waste block and bone, or easily removed with alcohol if it's use to 'tack weld' the bone to the waste block. Go for it. (BTW, epoxy seems like a poor choice, but it can be released with heat, if you can get the heat to the epoxy. Fishing rod grips are epoxied onto the blank and taken off by soaking in boiling water for a few minutes)

 

[Dwayne Watt]

I second hot melt glue. For most turning applications be sure to get a high temperature glue gun, not the $5 craft store version. Surebonder is the brand I successfully use.
Denatured alcohol releases the bond and pieces generally peel right off. Sometimes a couple of applications of alcohol are needed.

 

[Lyle Jamieson]

I would recommend CA glue....both hot glue or double sided tape are flexible adhesives, and you will get vibration when turning.

 

[john lucas]

For small pieces like that double stick tape is great. Get tge cloth backed tape apply the work and then clamp it for 30 seconds to a minute. Drive a dull knife through the joint to break it. I've turned a ton of pendants that way.

 

[Doug Freeman]

For small items like a pendant, the double sided tape or hot melt glue. For larger items like bowls, platters, or hf’s where you want to use a waste block, thick CA glue overall works best for me. Lyle Jamieson has a good video about it. Big +’s are CA can be used with wet wood, it sets up in a few minutes, the joint is fairly easy to break with a flat chisel, and waste blocks are easy to re-use.

 

[John K Jordan]

A good friend made all of his large bowls sticking a flattened base directly to a clean face plate with double-sided tape. He used the good woodturners tape from Woodcraft. Never had even heavy and unbalanced blanks come loose. He turned quite large things outboard.

He said the biggest problem was getting it off the faceplate. He would use a hypodermic syringe and inject acetone into the tape from the side. Another friend and I used the same tape to hold metal parts to the milling machine - apply tape, stick to a clean surface, then apply downwards pressure for a while. Extremely strong bond. We discovered removal worked better by applying patience - drive a thin wedge into the tape, wait, drive it a bit further, wait, rinse and repeat.

There was no flexing with on either machine, was fine for precision parts on the mill. There might be if the contact area was very small and there was excessive force applied, but not if turning with finesse.

JKJ

 

[Doug Freeman]

A good friend made all of his large bowls sticking a flattened base directly to a clean face plate with double-sided tape.

Do you recall what % dia the taped base area was vs bowl dia? The turner’s tape I have is like strong adhesive double sided masking tape - pretty thin. Same thing, or was it a thicker tape?

 

[Odie]

Just a little more work involved......but to me, the overall benefits are hard to ignore.

Waste blocks are made from premium stud lumber.....2x4s, 2x6s.

Attached to the bowl with Titebond. This is an extremely strong bond.

I use screw center faceplates, and I have a dozen of them.

Faceplate stays on the bowl until the foot is ready to be turned. Because of this, you can put it aside and come back to it later......everything will remain perfectly aligned.

I part the wasteblock when I'm ready to do the foot.....down to about silver dollar size. Then I use a drum brake adjusting tool to break it away.

=o=

 

[Curt Fuller]

Then I use a drum brake adjusting tool to break it away.

Odie, you really are "old school". I don't think I even own a drum brake adjusting tool anymore, let alone a car that has drum brakes.

But seriously, your method of using a faceplate/waste block for bowl turning is really the only method I would trust. I rarely use waste blocks anymore but when I do I glue the block with tighbond and give it a day before I turn it.

 

[Bryan Field]

For bigger pieces I use hot glue and then remove it with a heat gun. I also use double sided tape for small pieces like pendants and earrings.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Thanks to all

 

[John K Jordan]

Do you recall what % dia the taped base area was vs bowl dia? The turner’s tape I have is like strong adhesive double sided masking tape - pretty thin. Same thing, or was it a thicker tape?

I finally reached him today and asked.
He said he used a 6" faceplate for solid blanks 14-16" in diameter.
Used good double-sided Woodturner's Tape from Woodcraft. the tape is pretty thin but the adhesive is VERY strong. Some I have I can cut but can't tear.
Method:

• Flatten a 6"+ section for the foot
• Apply a layer of double-sided Woodturner's to the faceplate.
• Burnish the tape (with the backing still on one side) to secure it to the face plate.

At this point, he decided whether to remove the backing and mount the blank to the tape or add a second layer of tape.
If the blank was heavy, he would use the second layer:

• Apply a layer of double-sided tape to the bottom of the bowl.
• Burnish that layer so it would stick well to the clean and flat wood.
• Remove the backing on the tape on both the faceplate and the blank (of course!)
• Carefully center the faceplate on the blank and press down (you only get one chance!)
• Weight or clamp the faceplate to the blank. He didn't say how long, maybe a few hours?
• Mount the faceplate on the lathe and turn.

For smaller bowls he would use a 3" faceplate and one layer of tape.

He did many bowls this way and never had any vibration or had one come loose. As I mentioned before, the bond was so good it was an effort to remove the bowl.

JKJ

 

[Tim Hunter]

TBIII is my choice.

Tim

 

[Alan Weinberg]

TBIII is my choice.

Tim

What is that?

 

[Holmes Anderson]

Less expensive TB2 and even TB1 are often a better choice for woodworking unless resistance to water is a major concern. TB1 will fail when wet. I've seen it firsthand when an entire set of cabinets glued up with TB1 got soaked overnight while sitting on the floor of my shop when it flooded. For gluing on waste blocks I assume the shorter open time of TB1/2 would be preferable and ease of weakening the bond could be an advantage.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

For wet wood, CA and polyurethane adhesives (Gorilla Glue) work. CA joints are easily split apart due to lower shear strength, so more convenient. For a really strong joint in wet wood, even on end grain, polyurethane works best for me. I was holding some pieces with glue blocks for carving using a mallet and found that the CA joints let go after a while, reinforcing the idea that CA has relatively low shock resistance. The drawback with Gorilla Glue is that the joint must be cut apart.

All of these methods require some cleanup. Some of the double-sided tapes have been the worst in that respect in my experience.

One method that has not been mentioned is the old paper joint, pva glue with kraft paper - easily split apart and reasonably strong.

 

[Tim Hunter]

Less expensive TB2 and even TB1 are often a better choice for woodworking unless resistance to water is a major concern. TB1 will fail when wet. I've seen it firsthand when an entire set of cabinets glued up with TB1 got soaked overnight while sitting on the floor of my shop when it flooded. For gluing on waste blocks I assume the shorter open time of TB1/2 would be preferable and ease of weakening the bond could be an advantage.

I don’t look for a weak bond. Waste blocks are easy enough to turn away or part and turn away. When I want a joint that can be broken, I include a piece of a brown paper bag.

Tim

 

[Aaron Harris]

I'd like to throw a new wrinkle into this discussion. I recently turned a large 13" square live edge cedar tray on a poplar glue block. I though the tray would look nice with that glue block turned into a foot ring, which I finished on the vacum chuck. It came out great, and the half-inch or so of lift from the contrasting wood really classed it up, I felt.

But I get crazy ideas sometimes, I mean really crazy (but more and more lately, they work if I plan out my procedures carefully!). I've got a really fancy (read expensive!) dry round bowl blank in gorgeous pomele sapele. As I don't want to give up any of this expensive wood to a tenon or mortise, what if I did the following:

1. Round/true/face it off, flatten the area I need for a block and make my center indentation for centering the block.
2. I would then cut a couple inches from the top of one of those african blackwood clarinet bell blanks from Woodcraft (that I normally make twig vases out of-the figure on these can be unreal!).
3. I would then turn it round, maybe on a screw chuck, drill through the center on the bottom (which would be hidden with one of my logo medallions), create a recess for my 50mm jaws so that I've got some meat left, and turn it roughly to shape with a nice flare with some extra left for retruing once attached. I envision this flared base to be maybe 3 inches tall or thereabouts.
4. Use 2-part epoxy and my usual 7mm brass rod to center/mate the AB with the bottom of the sapele bowl. I think that a similar procedure I use for attaching a finial to a lid would work here, with a bead on the bottom just barely overlapping two gently-radiused surfaces. I imagine the two mating surfaces will need a half-inch or so of dead-flat around their rims in case the re-truing has to cut in a bit.

My concerns for this project revolve around: a. getting a secure connection with that AB, which of course is an oily rosewood. Would epoxy give a rock-solid join if I scrub the mating surface with acetone? And b. Assuming a solid, fully-cured hold, once I flip it around to lock the chuck jaws into that 50mm recess, I know I will have to retrue everything, so I know I will need tailstock support as long as I can get away with it, so I expect I would completely turn, sand and finish the outside before cutting into the inside.

My biggest concern is cutting into that sapele bowl's interior when I have a fulcrum point of maybe 2 inches diameter at the glue-join supported by that chuck/recess connection I can imagine if they separated at 1000 rpm.

Is this even technically feasible? I know me. This project will haunt me until I just up and do it. Maybe I need a bigger block of wood for the bottom. I appreciate any technical help here in talking me down off the ledge!

 

[Kevin Jenness]

How large is your bowl blank relative to the foot? A 2" attachment on a 12" overall piece will be relatively fragile even in solid wood with no glue involved. That doesn't mean it won't hold up with light cuts and no catches. Using the tailstock as long as possible will surely help.

From what I have read the key to gluing oily woods is accurate, freshly cut gluing surfaces. A strong joint can be achieved on teak under those conditions with both pva glues and epoxy, probably with other adhesives as well. Epoxy, being a gap-filling adhesive, doesn't require perfectly mated joints, but it does like rough surfaces (80# sanded or equivalent). Scrubbing with solvent doesn't seem to be necessary for freshly cut wood, though I don't think it would hurt either. In your shoes I would do a test joint and see how strong it is before committing an expensive blank.

 

[Holmes Anderson]

I don’t look for a weak bond. Waste blocks are easy enough to turn away or part and turn away. When I want a joint that can be broken, I include a piece of a brown paper bag.

Tim

I've used them all for turning with paper bag joints and prefer TB1 because the joints break more easily and cleanly with TB1 than TB3 and the set time is faster too. It's also easier to clean up dried TB1 from your bench than TB3. TB3 is good for lawn furniture and cutting boards. If the OP is just making one or two items then he can use whatever he has on hand but glue selection makes a difference if many items are being made or you need clean breaks and the option of water cleanup, such as for furniture parts. The TB1/2/3 debate is a common thread on flat work forums, so he can easily find all the info he wants.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Aaron, I see you read my post while I was editing it to note the requirement for rough surfaces with epoxy- this is an important point.

 

[Aaron Harris]

How large is your bowl blank relative to the foot? A 2" attachment on a 12" overall piece will be relatively fragile even in solid wood with no glue involved. That doesn't mean it won't hold up with light cuts and no catches. Using the tailstock as long as possible will surely help.

From what I have read the key to gluing oily woods is accurate, freshly cut gluing surfaces. A strong joint can be achieved on teak under those conditions with both pva glues and epoxy, probably with other adhesives as well. Epoxy, being a gap-filling adhesive, doesn't require perfectly mated joints, but it does like rough surfaces (80# sanded or equivalent). Scrubbing with solvent doesn't seem to be necessary for freshly cut wood, though I don't think it would hurt either. In your shoes I would do a test joint and see how strong it is before committing an expensive blank.

Kevin-I just remeasured and confirmed that it is 9x3," and to get the rise/flare I want from that AB blank, it would be right at 2" wide at the foot of the bowl where it would join. The more I think about this, the more I think I am talking myself into a bigger blank for a foot that doesn't flare inward so much, and I can determine its diameter. 3 inches wide seems more reasonable and safer to work with.

 

[hughie]

Waste Blocks in hardwood, I find many if not most glues dont hold that well on dense hardwood and double sided tape is out of the question. I use self tapping bugle head timber screws 5-6mm x 60-70mm long, screwed into the open end of the vessel. I have half a dozen various sized hardwood blocks I use over and over again.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Waste Blocks in hardwood, I find many if not most glues dont hold that well on dense hardwood and double sided tape is out of the question. I use self tapping bugle head timber screws 5-6mm x 60-70mm long, screwed into the open end of the vessel. I have half a dozen various sized hardwood blocks I use over and over again.

I do appreciate your answer, however, such screws would ruin the 1/4 inch thick piece of bone I am trying to turn.

 

[John K Jordan]

and double sided tape is out of the question

Why is double-sided tape out of the question when it has proven to work on various hardwoods?

 

[hughie]

Why is double-sided tape out of the question when it has proven to work on various hardwoods?

John, A lot of what I turn is up around 3-4000 Janka hardness scale and for the most part all have a small foot or base. There is just not enough grip on a 2-3" dia foot. Also my regular method is to turn the outside to a finished state and hold the vessel by the foot to hollow it out, ok with a a steady.
check this site out for more info on Australian desert trees

Turning Trees Into Toothpicks

Woodturning and the trees and timbers of Queenslands Central Highlands

www.ttit.id.au

 

[hughie]

I do appreciate your answer, however, such screws would ruin the 1/4 inch thick piece of bone I am trying to turn.

Absolutely, bone is difficult as it has hard spots, you may have to do it by hand

 

[John K Jordan]

John, A lot of what I turn is up around 3-4000 Janka hardness scale and for the most part all have a small foot or base. There is just not enough grip on a 2-3" dia foot. Also my regular method is to turn the outside to a finished state and hold the vessel by the foot to hollow it out, ok with a a steady.
check this site out for more info on Australian desert trees

Turning Trees Into Toothpicks

Woodturning and the trees and timbers of Queenslands Central Highlands

www.ttit.id.au

I must have missed where you said you used a 2” or 3” diam foot. And about the overall diameter of the piece. Can’t see what difference the wood hardness makes unless turning is aggressive.

My method of working seams similar (for dry wood). I hold the piece by the top, turn the entire outside and the foot, smooth the wood and even apply finish, then reverse and turn the top/inside. I hold the base by a recess but I realize others prefer another holding method. I’ve never needed a steady rest. A friend once brought me variety of aussie woods in a suitcase and some are indeed hard. Beautiful wood.

JKJ

 

[hughie]

I must have missed where you said you used a 2” or 3” diam foot. And about the overall diameter of the piece. Can’t see what difference the wood hardness makes unless turning is aggressive.

My method of working seams similar (for dry wood). I hold the piece by the top, turn the entire outside and the foot, smooth the wood and even apply finish, then reverse and turn the top/inside. I hold the base by a recess but I realize others prefer another holding method. I’ve never needed a steady rest. A friend once brought me variety of Aussie woods in a suitcase and some are indeed hard. Beautiful wood.

JKJ

I didnt mention the foot dia, sorry, I use a steady due the forces on some of my hollow forms its become something of a habit. Yes some of our hardwoods are very hard to cut, especially when they take up silica from the surrounding soil. There are occasions when I have the grinder next to me at the lathe, at these times 2 or 3 cuts and the damage to the edge is such that honing doesn't help. This begs the obvious question, why? the finish can be unbelievable when its all said and done. The other interesting aspect is using the bugle head type CSK screws etc, is, on many species I have to drill a pilot hole otherwise it will split . The bottom line is we have heaps of very hard hardwood and as it dry out it gets worse, burls off long dead trees are something I try and avoid, generally swap them.

 

[Kirk Yarina]

What is that?