Dust collection system advice

[Bob Hall]

I’m running this old bag system for chips/dust collection in addition to a Rikon 450 for the fines that get through the bags. It gets a lot of it but I am still getting a lot of fine dust that settles even though I leave the air handler run for an hour or two on a timer after I am done.

Any suggestions on cost effective upgrades or is living with the really fine dust just the way it is?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[GRJensen]

Maybe not 'cost effective', but my fine dust issues have been greatly reduced when I installed my Oneida Supercell. I run a Rikon overhead air cleaner anytime I am turning, and run the Supercell when sanding or turning dry wood.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

Replacing the bags with a pleated filter will help a whole lot. They will also stop much more of the very fine, more dangerous, dust. I an extremely happy with the ones I've gotten from Wynn Environmental. He packs in more square feet of filter material which allows greater airflow. I regard them as cost effective compared to the potential large negative health impacts, but admittedly they aren't cheap.

 

[Bob Hall]

Maybe not 'cost effective', but my fine dust issues have been greatly reduced when I installed my Oneida Supercell. I run a Rikon overhead air cleaner anytime I am turning, and run the Supercell when sanding or turning dry wood.

Thank you but that would be great but it isn’t in the cards at the moment. I’m running a 60’s era delta lathe and I haven’t decided to totally take the plunge. With my back issues standing at the lathe is an issue.

Replacing the bags with a pleated filter will help a whole lot. They will also stop much more of the very fine, more dangerous, dust. I an extremely happy with the ones I've gotten from Wynn Environmental. He packs in more square feet of filter material which allows greater airflow. I regard them as cost effective compared to the potential large negative health impacts, but admittedly they aren't cheap.

How do the filters affect the airflow?

Thank you both for the responses,

Bob

 

[Roger Wiegand]

The cloth bags on my 3hp cyclone type DC (not a brand name, made in the USA long ago) were so bad that the flow actually increased significantly with the Wynn pleated filters-- I could feel the difference in the wind being sucked into my table saw, for example. Used to be that whenever I turned the DC on there was a noticeable haze in the air. No more with the filters. (And remember that the more dangerous small particle aren't nearly as visible) I don't own a particle counter so can't give you other than anecdotal observations.

 

[Bob Hall]

The cloth bags on my 3hp cyclone type DC (not a brand name, made in the USA long ago) were so bad that the flow actually increased significantly with the Wynn pleated filters-- I could feel the difference in the wind being sucked into my table saw, for example. Used to be that whenever I turned the DC on there was a noticeable haze in the air. No more with the filters. (And remember that the more dangerous small particle aren't nearly as visible) I don't own a particle counter so can't give you other than anecdotal observations.

Thank you. That’s very helpful.

Bob

 

[robo hippy]

The cloth bags were obsolete years ago. I think most were in the 0.5 micron range. My newer pleated paper filter from Oneida filters down to 0.05 microns. I had a cloth one for my first DC system, and a dust plume would form every time I turned it on.... Part of the advantage of the pleated paper ones is that they offer several times the area for the air to filter through.

robo hippy

 

[John K Jordan]

I’ve never experience a cloth bag “filter” do not spew fine dust.

In the long run (especially if the shop is in a dedicated area for the long run), consider installing a cyclone. I put in a Clearvue with a 5hp motor when I built my shop, installing 6” ducts to the lathe, bandsaw, and some other tools. The thing is in a sound-insulated closet (with a big air compressor) and has a good filter on the exhaust for what very little dust gets past the vortex. I use a 30 gal metal trash can to collect the dust - get’s heavy when full of packed fine wood dust!

I use an electronic air quality monitor to check on the effectiveness. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004AWEG0Y
Mine is dedicated to the shop and has worked well. I double-check it with a less expensive monitor.

It’s amazing how well the Clearvue works and how powerful the pickup is. Don’t let your cat get too close to the pickup at the lathe.

JKJ

 

[Doug Freeman]

How do the filters affect the airflow?

Wish I could provide objective data, but like @Roger Wiegand I just have the subjective “significantly”. Additionally, the pleated filters will take longer to load up, decreasing service intervals. I have a Wynn filter on a 2hp dc. Some folks have used large diesel engine air filters on dc’s but I dont have links to that info.

 

[Bob Hall]

Wish I could provide objective data, but like @Roger Wiegand I just have the subjective “significantly”. Additionally, the pleated filters will take longer to load up, decreasing service intervals. I have a Wynn filter on a 2hp dc. Some folks have used large diesel engine air filters on dc’s but I dont have links to that info.

Interesting. I never would have though of using diesel air filters

Thanks for adding that.

Bob

 

[Darryl Fective]

It’s amazing how well the Clearvue works and how powerful the pickup is. Don’t let your cat get too close to the pickup at the lathe.

JKJ

 

[Toby A Brown]

I used foil tape on ALL pipe joints, which improved my fine dust issue. I would recommend it over the normal duct tape as it doesn't dry out and peel off.

 

[John K Jordan]

I used foil tape on ALL pipe joints, which improved my fine dust issue. I would recommend it over the normal duct tape as it doesn't dry out and peel off.

That should work great as it's used for HVAC systems. I used PVC glue on all of my ducts I ran up up into and across the rafters in above the ceiling. It's nicely out of the way but if I ever need to reconfigure it I'm in trouble, in more ways than one! It was a nightmare to snake the ducts through the trusses without having to trim any. I hope I put enough drops in places for what I need for as long as I'm able to keep working in the shop!



With all the DC and HVAC ductwork in and the plywood ceilings up, I ever need to crawl between the trusses to run a new anything, I think I'll hire a very short and thin tiny person. I'll pay double.

Tip: put clean out plugs at the ends of all long, straight runs. Occasionally I open an access panel and sight down the duct. Haven't needed to use them yet for any clogs but who knows The ClearVue cyclone is scary strong.
And a series of those 22.5-deg elbows are great for making long curved sweeps where possible to avoid using 90s or 45s.




Hey, I use the foil HVAC tape for another use it the shop - epoxy! When I want to mix only a small amount I put a short strip of the 2" wide foil tape on the workbench, bandsaw bed, whatever, mix a small amount of epoxy and apply it. I leave the tape with any excess - that way I can check the state of hardness of the epoxy and know when it's cured. Saves using those little mixing cups.

JKJ

 

[Kevin Jenness]

A good pleated air filter from Wynn Environmental is a good investment in your health. The problem is keeping the pleats from clogging up with fine dust. Anyone who has cleaned one out knows what a miserable job that is. Cyclones are one, expensive, pre-separation solution. Another that you can make yourself is a Fein baffle. The link shows a bin separate from the blower and filter but it can be adapted to a compact integrated system. Thein baffle

By the way, Clearvue recently packed it in.

 

[Lowell Fuher]

Hey folks. I did a considerable amount of research before putting the final touches on my installs of the new shop. I recently chatted with Dick Wynn of Wynn Environmental regarding the third part of my dust collection.

The latest piece was what filter to use in the shop to catch the fine floating dust. Sure, I wear a full head/face dust helmet, but the lingering dust is still an issue in most wood shops. So I designed a system that pulls ceiling air through a vent above my lathe, then pulls it through a Wynn MERV15 filter, then through the eight-inch 800cfm turbo van and back into a sound-deadening chamber/vent across the room, and into the room.

I built my building with an upstairs 12 X 33 loft and housed the filter canister and the enclosure I made up there. How well does it work? After three months of use, I opened the enclosure and cleaned the filter. OMG, I was amazed and pleased with the amount of wood dust I had captured.

The main sawdust collection system is in a mechanical room I added to the outside rear of my shop, which houses my air compressor and dust cyclone/fan/filter setup. The system includes a booster fan that brings the filtered air back into my shop through a large vent again with sound baffles to deaden the noise. I use an air balance device to ensure things are good and the booster fan is variable speed.

It's not a huge system, with a 5-inch main line and 4-inch feeders to my lathe, table saw, jointer, router table, etc. Air flow is 1500cfm, and a big black Super Dust Deputy under a nice fan and then into two Wynn dust cartridges. Having it outside in the mechanical room really really cuts down on the noise. Since I am a one-man shop, no more than one blast gate is open at a time.

I have pushed sixty-eight years of air through my lungs, and as a nonsmoker, I don't want to wreck them now.
Lowell

 

[John K Jordan]

I designed a system that pulls ceiling air through a vent above my lathe, then pulls it through a Wynn MERV15 filter, then through the eight-inch 800cfm turbo van and back into a sound-deadening chamber/vent across the room, and into the room.

Sounds great! I wish I'd built my shop with a second story but I was too cheap!
I use a cyclone (in a sound-insulated closet) that returns the Winn filtered air to the room through a baffled duct to reduce noise.
I monitor the effectiveness with a Dylos, a little pricey, but like you I want to baby my nearly 75 year old lungs!

It's reassuring to see how effective the DC is working, especially when running tools like a 22/44 drum sander:

Amazon.com

I have full-face but I usually use the 3M half-face dual-filter respirators too.
The price keeps inching up but not too bad.

Amazon.com

JKJ

 

[Nick Matley]

Replacing the bags with a pleated filter will help a whole lot. They will also stop much more of the very fine, more dangerous, dust. I an extremely happy with the ones I've gotten from Wynn Environmental. He packs in more square feet of filter material which allows greater airflow. I regard them as cost effective compared to the potential large negative health impacts, but admittedly they aren't cheap.

Agreed 100%

 

[Nick Matley]

I’m running this old bag system for chips/dust collection in addition to a Rikon 450 for the fines that get through the bags. It gets a lot of it but I am still getting a lot of fine dust that settles even though I leave the air handler run for an hour or two on a timer after I am done.

Any suggestions on cost effective upgrades or is living with the really fine dust just the way it is?

Thanks,

Bob


View attachment 67328

Anything you can do to move the air in the room/shop outside? Even if it’s only after you leave the shop, moving it out prior to it settling on the ground and equipment will overall improve things greatly.

 

[John K Jordan]

Anything you can do to move the air in the room/shop outside?

A good friend of mine turns with a big fan directly behind the lathe that blows everything outside. But imagine this: he doesn't turn in the winter!

Any suggestions on cost effective upgrades or is living with the really fine dust just the way it is?

Bob, I didn't notice it in the other posts, but have you tried one of the air cleaners that attach to the ceiling? I used a Jet in my garage shop before I built my current shop. I found the fine dust was picked up quickly when I had it turned on. It's important to place it properly so it circulates the air. I hung it from the ceiling along one long wall.

And here's a radical idea - if a lot of the dust comes from sanding, quit sanding! I know that sounds easier said than done, but years ago I completely gave up power sanding with rotating disk on a close quarters drill. (I got tired of the clouds of dust)

What I do now is try to turn so very little sanding is needed - easier with the smaller things mostly I like to turn - and do most sanding with the lathe off. But even when turning bowls and platters I've gone to two things: 1) rely on negative rake scrapers to take out tool marks from gouges, and 2) use special hand scrapers to take out the marks from the NRS! After that, most of my sanding is by hand and rarely with sandpaper coarser than 400 grit - sometimes I can go directly to 600 grit. Occasionally with larger flat or dished shapes I'll use a small pnuematic random orbital sander turned down to very low speed and only with fine paper, usually 600 grit - puts very little dust into the air.

I use these "soft sanding blocks" for much of my hand sanding - sandpaper wrapped around a flexible white eraser.



JKJ

 

[Bob Hall]

I am running a Rikon 62-450 which helps a lot. I currently have the inlet placed near the bag to collect most of the dust that makes it through the bag.

I plan on ordering a pleated filter in the near future. Things have been busy with the holidays and my just haven’t been down to the shop in a few weeks. I still have to try making one of those dished. platters.

Sometimes it seems like I do a lot of sanding. I have a long way to go in that department.

I have been using a negative rake scraper and ordered another one as they really help with taking out the tool marks.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Bob

 

[John K Jordan]

I have been using a negative rake scraper and ordered another one as they really help with taking out the tool marks.

I've posted these pictures before. These are the NRS I use for bowls and platters and such. I grind them from Thompson square scrapers. They are gound much like a skew, with 60-deg included angle, sharpened on a 600 grit CBN wheel, then the grinder burr is removed and a burnished burr added.



Here are a few of the hand scrapers I use after the negative rake scrapers.
I buy normal cabinet scrapers, grind them with curves to suit me, then sharpen and burnish just like cabinet scrapers.
The two thicker ones on the left are from Stewart McDonald, sold to luthiers so you know they're good! Sharpened an entirely different way.



One in use:



JKJ

EDIT: don't know what happened to the pictures, I probably did something wrong. This should fix it.

 

[Gregory Hickman]

Is there somethingwing John, I can't see your attachments.

Gregory

 

[Bob Hall]

Is there somethingwing John, I can't see your attachments.

Gregory

I can see them just fine.

@John K Jordan ,

Thank you for posting that.

Right now I am using Rikon carbide tipped scrapers on an old Delta from the 60’s. I can definitely see how those negative rake scrapers would be a huge asset in turning bowls and platters. I can see where the hand scrapers would save a lot of sandpaper and they must really shine when doing something with an irregular edge.

My goals for this year is to improve the dust system and move up from my hobby lathe into a “real” lathe with a bigger swing, speed control, and reverse.

Bob

 

[Gregory Hickman]

Whatever was the cause they are there now. Following this topic as I'm setting up my indoor (spare bedroom) turning lab.

Gregory

 

[Rob Gabel]

Interesting. I never would have though of using diesel air filters

Thanks for adding that.

Bob

I have heard about diesel air filters as well, but there is a "downside" to them that I learned about when researching the Wynn filter. Diesel filters are designed to filter air flowing from the outside to the middle of the filter. The Wynn filter for dust collectors is designed to filter air flowing from the middle to the outside. Not sure if this is a huge issue or not, but I decided to stick with Wynn.

The other question asked was regarding air flow. The more surface area you have, the more the air can "escape". If you were to cut a bag along its height and "unroll" it you have a relatively small rectangle (surface area). If you were to do the same with a pleated filter, you would have a significantly larger rectangle in the length as you would "unfold" all of those pleats to lay flat. Even though the openings are smaller than a bag, the larger number of those small openings is still a greater area than the bag openings. At some point you will have dimensioning returns as the blower can only move so much air, but there is a significant amount to be gained by going to a pleated filter.

Hopefully this makes sense.

 

[Bob Hall]

I have heard about diesel air filters as well, but there is a "downside" to them that I learned about when researching the Wynn filter. Diesel filters are designed to filter air flowing from the outside to the middle of the filter. The Wynn filter for dust collectors is designed to filter air flowing from the middle to the outside. Not sure if this is a huge issue or not, but I decided to stick with Wynn.

The other question asked was regarding air flow. The more surface area you have, the more the air can "escape". If you were to cut a bag along its height and "unroll" it you have a relatively small rectangle (surface area). If you were to do the same with a pleated filter, you would have a significantly larger rectangle in the length as you would "unfold" all of those pleats to lay flat. Even though the openings are smaller than a bag, the larger number of those small openings is still a greater area than the bag openings. At some point you will have dimensioning returns as the blower can only move so much air, but there is a significant amount to be gained by going to a pleated filter.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Thanks,

I came to the same conclusion with the Diesel air filters. Air flow direction matters a lot with air filters. It is without a doubt best to use the right filter for the right job.

More surface area increasing air flow makes good sense as well.

Thank you,

Bob

 

[Kevin Jenness]

With greater surface area and flow you get lower back pressure forcing particles through the filter media.

 

[Bob Hall]

With greater surface area and flow you get lower back pressure forcing particles through the filter media.

Good point.

Thank you