Decent tooling for turning?

[Matt Meadows]

Just a bit of a survey here for a newcomer to see what brands and types of cutting tools and gouges you'd recommend. I've noticed that anything other than basement-price tools start costing $30-80 a piece, which blows my budget real quick.

What do you recommend as a decent quality brand tool at a good price. I'm not above making my own handles if buying the cutting part seperately is typically a bargain.

 

[Jim Ketron]

I think the Harbor Freight set is a good beginner set to start out with for around $40, I still use some of mine. Just add the new ones as you need them

 

[Fred in NC]

I agree with the HF $40 set. It is an excellent value. I have had mine for over 2 yrs, since I started turning. However, it does not include a bowl gouge. For less than $100 you can buy a decent bowl gouge and the HF set, and be ready to go.

 

[GeeSeaWhy]

The HF set is a good buy for spindle turning - just don't even think about using any of those tools on bowls, apart from the scrapers. For a bowl gouge, look at P&N (Patience & Nichols, carried by Woodcraft, Lee Valley, Craft Supplies and maybe others). They come without handles and are a bit cheaper than most other decent brands. A 3/8" gouge is the right size for anything you can sensibly do on that ShopSmith you have.

(Note: the 3/8" P&N is smaller than a 3/8" from Sorby, Crown or the other English makers - the English measure a bowl gouge by the flute width, Australians & Americans measure the steel width).

Graeme

 

[dkulze]

Strong second here on Graeme's suggestion. HF set is fine for spindle work but, other than the scrapers, wouldn't be too good for bowl or vase work. If you look around at ads, you can find sets or individuals of Sorby, Crown, and others at pretty reasonable prices sometimes. A nice 3/8 bowl gouge is a good addition to a set, as is the Sorby Multi-tip hollowing tool if you want to do vases. These two and a basic set will hold you for years if you need to control costs.

The only other thing to recommend would be to consider an investment into a Wolverine or similar sharpening jig and "Ellsworth grind" type jig. If money is super tight, you can look online and find plans for a sharpening jig to make at home that will hold you for a while. Tools that are sharpened infrequently or improperly make a HUGE difference in turning ability. I spent 3 years making dust instead of curls due to this. Freehand is tough and the jig can pay for itself in tool life and turning ability.

Good luck,
Dietrich

 

[MichaelMouse]

A lot of ways to spend money, but none of them, be it alloy, grinder, or famous name grind is going to make you a turner. What makes you a turner is applying the edge to the work so that it cuts the wood as it wishes to be cut. One thing I hope you get out of the constant discussion of which steel, which grinder and which grind is that there is not a best, only the one you do well with.

Therefore, my priorities:

1. A grinder that will stay in tune. I like slow speed, because my shop has chisels, plane irons, carving tools and such, and it's tougher to burn one on a slow speed. You're going to be using it to freshen an edge 99% of the time, so you don't need removal power. That's over on the belt sander.

2. A set of tools. Good ones for ~100, rough ones for ~50 are all over the place. Exceptional ones for 35 each. If you're going to do bowls, and they will be mostly 6 or below, a 3/8 (1/4 flute) is good, over eight wants a 1/2 (3/8) flute. Larger later.

3. Sharpening proficiency. No tool you buy has a perfect grind. No name turner has a perfect grind. As I said, look at how many are out there. Moreover, no two tools are ground the same. Therefore, I recommend you use the bevel that came with the tool as your sharpening guide, laying the tool to the grinding wheel as if you were turning: A-B-C Anchor on the rest. Bevel to the wheel. Cut. You cut to the edge, you do not cut the edge.

4. Acquire tool proficiency using what you've got for tools and good sense. Never give leverage - take it. Means toolrest up close, move often. A-B-C will allow even lightweight tools to cut safely, so chant it like a mantra until it's automatic. The best cut is the one with least resistance, so keep your edges cutting across the fiber, and change your angle if the shavings start to fly. If you cut them off, they'll fall, maybe a bit of outward centrifugal motion still on them, but basically down. Work for it.

5. Now that you know how to cut wood, and have some idea of how your style fits with tools and grinds, go spend some money. Spend it on what works for you, not someone else.

 

[dkulze]

Hi Michael,

I didn't mean to imply that the tool makes the turner. What I did mean to imply is that, with poorly sharpened tools (which is pretty much any of us new to turning and sharpening freehand, no isult intended), the learning curve is stretched out pretty far and there are many things you just can't do well.

As to "name" grinds, calling it an "Ellsworth Grind" is simply the easiest way for me to categorize it. It can also be called a modified Irish grind, a fingernail grind (with rollover), and several other things. The key part is that it is a very useful grind on a bowl gouge, and can drastically change cutting style, opening up a whole range of skills and cuts that cannot be pursued with a standard grind on the gouge. This grind in particular is just about unsustainable on a grinder, freehand, unless you are REALLY good.

I'm completely with you that tools, grinds, etc won't make you a turner. What they will do, however, is affect your learning (positively and negatively) in ways that will show over time.

Redfish, I'll throw in my basic list for certain dollar amounts. It's based on range of use, ability to support learning, and making hard parts easier. All lists should be assumed to come after you aquire a faceshield, dust filter (not dust mask), and lots of sandpaper.

$100 or less:
Inexpensive HF set and Patience & Nichols 3/8 bowl gouge

$200 or less:
Inexpensive HF set, P & N 3/8, Wolverine Sharpening Jig

$300 or less:
Sorby or Crown box set (skew, bowl, spindle, and multitool) and Wolverine Sharpening Jig (with varigrind attachment)

$400 or less: same as above with an inexpensive chuck and low temp wheel for grinder

$500 and up: same as above, nice chuck, nice live center, spindle/bowl steady, etc.

And don't forget about hooking up with the nearest AAW chapter and mentoring so that you can try stuff out.

How's that?

Dietrich

 

[MichaelMouse]

Hi Michael,

I didn't mean to imply that the tool makes the turner. What I did mean to imply is that, with poorly sharpened tools (which is pretty much any of us new to turning and sharpening freehand, no isult intended), the learning curve is stretched out pretty far and there are many things you just can't do well.

As to "name" grinds, calling it an "Ellsworth Grind" is simply the easiest way for me to categorize it. It can also be called a modified Irish grind, a fingernail grind (with rollover), and several other things. The key part is that it is a very useful grind on a bowl gouge, and can drastically change cutting style, opening up a whole range of skills and cuts that cannot be pursued with a standard grind on the gouge. This grind in particular is just about unsustainable on a grinder, freehand, unless you are REALLY good.

Dietrich

Sorry if I gored your ox. I didn't quote you, nor respond by point. Must have hit the wrong "reply" button. Happens sometimes.

However, you're barking up the wrong tree. To sharpen properly you need grit, not grinding aids. To sharpen your non-fingernailed gouge versus your fingernailed gouge, versus your rougher, and even bowl gouge(s) may call for entirely different angles than others use. The best template is the one that's already on the tool. If it's doing the job for you, reproduce it, if not modify it.

I don't put the same grind on my 3/8 bowl gouge that I put on my 5/8. My 5/8 is big enough and stiff enough to hog with. The other isn't, and so is ground to a gentler purpose. The 1" is ground stubby, because if I hogged with an elongated edge, it'd take the entire Packer offensive line to hold it down even with a 4:1 mechanical advantage.

I recently changed lathes, which meant I changed toolrest styles, and the angles on my gouges had to be revised for the new angles, so I could keep my elbow where I wanted it and still get support from the different rest. I suppose I could have clung to some formula grind and sacrificed my tendons or some control, but I chose not to. The reason I was able to take that road was because I was familiar with the operation of the tools, and the basics of turning, including anchoring securely to the rest. It's a road worth travelling. Learn the cuts, then modify the tools to make them your way.The grind on the gouge can force you into angles, overhangs, and body positions you might not want to take, so I follow the order of:

1) Turner safe. Out of the throw zone.
2) Tool control. Close rest and great mechanical advantage. Geometry safe.
3) Quality control. Sever the fibers across their supported length.
4) The wood is my teacher. When it's properly cut, there's almost no pressure, and the shavings fall, not fly. If not so, I try to make it so, even if it takes a bit of a regrind.


It's my opinion, and was flagged as such.

 

[dkulze]

I think we may be arguing the same point here, Michael. I use a variety of grinds on my tools, changing them as needed. I use a varigrind jig with the Wolverine system. This lets me vary pretty much any angle, amount of rollover, wings, etc.

I tried to maintain a nice grind freehand (I'm assuming this is what you mean by grit) but it is very tough to do and tends to drift with several grinds. Hand sharpening on a stone works better but is very labor intensive and takes some skill, which I for one don't posess. Now I do touch up the edge several times between sharpenings using a diamond steel.

Am I right in guessing you're talking about freehand sharpening vs. using a jig or am I completely off here?

Dietrich

 

[Matt Meadows]

I'd actually prefer that you two guys disagreed quite strongly on some things, then I really learn some cool stuff. This has been the most helpful thread, thanks all!

 

[MichaelMouse]

Am I right in guessing you're talking about freehand sharpening vs. using a jig or am I completely off here?

Dietrich

By your definition, I suppose it's "freehand," but the old carver is merely, as stated, using the existing bevel as the guide. Honing under power is a fair thing to call it. It's anything but difficult, just requires the same eye and touch as spindle turning. I even go out of my way to keep the centerline of my grinder - no, I am not a honer - nearly the same as my lathe. Makes it more natural to lay the tool up in the position of use.

With all the different jigs and grinds and forms of gouges out there, it's pretty obvious that reality lies not in this angle or that conformation, but in the edge. That's about all they have in common. With the talk of spindle height, sliding or rotating headstocks, flat, tilted or even round bar toolrests, it's obvious we turners don't share the same angle to the rotating wood. What's common is the wood. Makes sense to me that each should seek the edge that cuts wood best for them.

The new guy can take two approaches - a constant grind which he serves by trying to find the angles and presentations which cut wood, or a constant presentation and a changing grind. Since presentation is the kind of thing that can launch whirling wood or fling bark, beat up or break a toolrest, fling chips into his face and demand sanding forever, I opt for the latter. Let the turner be safe, the tools not abused, and let the twisted shavings flow at angle xyz with tool "a" and wxy with tool "b."

As everyone who's spent much time turning, I've got a lot of different tools, but use perhaps ten. Those shiny one-trick ponys are ridden once a year, maybe. The stuff I use is so familiar that I can sense not just a dull edge, but a bit of drift in my grind. So I take it back and correct it.

 

[drjcbarton]

Several sets are available through Grizzley that are bargains as well as being very good quality tools. They have two sets of 6 tools below $100 that are worth considering. I purchased one and continue to use every tool in the set. About sharpening, I use a Tormek but, truth is you can make a sharpening disk out of emory paper attached to a round plywood disc that fit your lathes faceplate that will do a nice job of providing an edge that is serviceable.

 

[dkulze]

I agree with you, Michael. I use 3-5 tools regularly and most other infrequently or not at all. The "one trick pony"s are just that, good for one trick and not so hot for others. On your options for how the turner approaches the wood, I disagree, however. Turning is a different process than carving, as the wood is moving and your tool is nominally stationary to the surface. By how I read it, you spoke of changing the tool grind and edge to suit the cut. My experience is using a consistant edge and bevel and varying the presentation to obtain different cuts.

(if you're already familiar with radical grinds, skip this next section)

This is the big advantage to the "Ellsworth" type grind I mentioned. It's not a consistant angle bevel grind. The angle changes sharply from about a 15-20 degree grind at the tip to about a 120 degree grind on the wings, actually rolling the bevel over the top of the tool. As you vary the angle and rotation of tool presentation to the wood, you remove or expose different portions of edge and bevel, allowing a variety of cuts to flow from each other while never disengaging the bevel. This allows for the cutting of curves and angles in areas that used to guarantee a catch.

I don't know what experience you've had with the Wolverine sharpening system from Oneway but this is what it's built to create, along with all the standard grinds also. It's really a system for sharpening turning tools and, compared to some such as the Tormak, is inexpensive, very simple, and extremely effective. It consists of only 3 pieces and is not limited to any one grind or angle. I've looked at some of the other systems that look like a modified jungle gym and where you have to buy a different attachment for each tool. As far as those are concerned, I'm with ya 100%.

By personal and quite a bit of anecdotal experience, you're one of the few folks out there who is effective at freehand sharpening of turning tools. I'm guessing that you are a carver by hx (you made reference to that) and have a lifetime of experience freehand sharpening tools. From what I hear and see, most of us have a hard time maintaining a clean bevel on straightforward grinds for turning tools. I won't even talk about what happens when most folks try to maintain a grind on a fingernail or rollover grind.

If you haven't had the chance to try it, I'd recommend finding a friend with the Wolverine system and giving it a shot. It's far from a one trick pony and lets fumble fingers like me put a very consistant and clean grind on a gouge in just a few seconds. My guess is that, with your experience, you'll stick to the way you're doing it but I also think you'll be surprised with how effective the system is.

Dietrich