Damascus steel tools??

[Rusty Fleeman]

Between a question posed by a friend and Odie's "Yes/No" post regarding sharpness and angles, I have a question of my own. My friend shared a YouTube video with me showing the process a gentleman goes through to create a large hand forged damascus steel carving chisel. Along with the video my friend sent a note saying, "you should save up a get one!" I explained that would be a unique style but I'm not aware of such a thing in a turning chisel. Aside from cost, would this work well, and could it possibly be a much better edge than current turning tools? Lastly, lest be honest, it would look amazing! Let's hear your metallurgy thoughts.

 

[Bill Boehme]

You can get the same edge quality with just about any tool steel, but high speed steel will hold an edge far longer for machine powered cutting. The Damascus steel might be OK for hand tools, but don't expect it to be noticeably sharper than any other tool steel. If you just want to have something unique then go for it.

 

[john lucas]

Ditto what Bill said. Damscus is pretty and in it's day was a fantastic steel. Today there are much better steels.

 

[Bill Boehme]

During the class that I took with Alan Lacer yesterday he showed us some of the tools that he had made for his personal use. The subject was about turning micro beads and other decorative features on tool handles and knobs. He picked up an awl and asked if anybody could tell what kind of steel was used. It was really too small in diameter to make any kind of educated guess so everybody just started naming every type of steel that came to mind, but nobody guessed Damascus steel which was the right answer. Somebody asked Alan if Damascus steel would be good for making turning tools. His answer is that it would be good for a kitchen knife to cut meat and vegetables, but totally worthless as a steel for turning tools. He said because the way that Damascus steel is made, a knife edge has tiny, almost microscopic, serrations which would make it good for kitchen use.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Modern steel is better than the old steel, as the making of the steel can be much better controlled and the exact other needed ingredients added depending the final use of it.

The biggest problem with making steel 7 or 8 hundred years ago and longer, was that they where unable to get high enough temperatures to remove the impurities from the metal.

With modern metallurgy tools, they have been able to find out what these very special swords were made from, here is a write-up on this that is quite impressive.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...close-supermonks-believed-forged-weapons.html

 

[john lucas]

One of my friends was the metal instructor at the Appalachian Center for Crafts. His name is Bob Coogan (now retired). One of his specialties is Damascus knives. When I was writing my article about tool making I asked Bob about Damascus. His response pretty much echoed what we said above. He said although he has never owned a real Samari sword he doubted that the metal was as good as the Damascus of today. Sword and Knife makers today can if they choose start the process with high quality tool steels and there fore he thinks they end up with an edge that it better. They don't have to start with that steel. He teaches a class where they use 1" steel cable as the start to the Damascus knives.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The Japanese had hundreds of years to develop processes and techniques for sword making, if you
compare some of the other crafts and industries they have developed over the years I would not readily
assume that today's blades are better. You might have a better quality of raw metal to start with, what
you do with the raw materials in processes and techniques is what makes a superior blade.

 

[Michael Brown]

I felt like resurrecting this thread. I love tools almost as much as I love turning. I think I have to commission a san-mai m42 sandwiched between two pieces of raindrop Damascus.

Flame away.

 

[Brent@TurnRobust]

Damascus steels are all basically combinations of two different high-carbon steels. Sometimes a steel with high nickel content is used for contrast, but high-carbon is still the result. Carbon migrates freely in steel, and forge welding high carbon steel to low carbon steel makes the carbon content in the Damascus steel basically an average of the two starting percentages.

High speed steel is VERY difficult to forge. Just using basic blacksmith tools, you end up with a condition known as "hot-short". The HS will just kind of crumble when you get it hot and hit it. It has to be done in a very controlled environment. Laminating some Damascus to M42 via forge welding sounds like a great idea aesthetically, but it may be difficult to execute in practice. If you can find somebody to get it done, please post the results.

 

[Bill Alston]

I questioned someone that posted on here whether they were really forging their own HSS tools for woodturning, and they were adamant they were. I’m still doubtful if I’m honest. From everything I’ve read it’s extremely difficult to forge in a home workshop. And even if you did it would still need specialist heat treatment afterwards. Laminating Damascus onto a much harder steel might yield some lovely looking tools though if it could be done.
I’ve seen other “Damascus” style materials using copper and other alloys that look good as well.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Going back a ways, steel was expensive, so an axe or spade was not made out of steel, only the working end would be made of steel.

In order to forge-weld the steel to the iron my dad would use a special material (a netting with carbon) to lay between the two materials and then heat and forge the steel to the iron.

To forge two dissimilar materials is tricky and you have to know what you are doing, there is now no reason to do this, as we have all kinds of low cost steel alloys available, and you can trust that what you get today you can get again tomorrow.
And I would say better material than what was made a few hundred years ago

My Dad shown here around 1950, he started black smithing in 1908 when he was 11 years old.

 

[Brent@TurnRobust]

Great picture Leo ! Typical man of the times too, no hearing or eye protection. God bless him.

 

[hughie]

The requirements of Damascus as High Speed Steel are totally different and to a large extent are based on available technology of the time. But if we look at the history of both steels we can get a better idea of the differences and usage. Essentially one is for cutting meat or flesh and the other machining steel. Although HSS can and does make a darn fine Blade, we see it all around us in industry and home.

High Speed Steel history taken from Wikipedia
1900
A demonstration of HSS cutting tools at the Paris Exhibition revolutionized the machining industry.
1910
The Crucible Steel Company patented the first formally classified HSS alloy, AISI T1.
1937
W. Breelor invented M2, a tungsten-molybdenum HSS with high wear resistance.
1938–1939
Patents were issued for high vanadium HSSs, which were called "super high speed steels" due to their high wear resistance.
1940s
Molybdenum-based HSSs became more common due to tungsten shortages and high costs during World War II.
1950s–1960s
Molybdenum-alloyed HSSs became the dominant alloys in the United States.

Damascus Steel
The history of Damascus steel is complex and controversial, with many theories about its origins:
Origins
Damascus steel is thought to be a descendant of Wootz steel, which was used in India and the Middle East in the 300s BC. The steel was made by melting iron and steel together with charcoal in a sealed container, called a crucible, at a very high temperature. The carbon dispersed throughout the iron, creating an iron-carbon alloy.
Name
The name "Damascus steel" likely comes from the capital of Syria, where the technique for forging Damascus blades was perfected. The word "damas" means "water" in Arabic, and the steel's rippled water pattern may be the origin of its name.
Spread
The Arabs introduced Wootz steel to Damascus, where it was used to make weapons. The steel was traded throughout the Fatimid Empire, and French and English armies encountered it during the Crusades.
Loss of the original process
The original method for making Damascus steel was lost in the 18th century. European blacksmiths tried to replicate the steel using a pattern welding technique, but were unsuccessful.
Modern research
In 1981, two Stanford University scientists accidentally recovered the secret to creating Damascus steel.

 

[Brent@TurnRobust]

Hughie, you are right. What we call "Damascus" today, is more correctly called "pattern welded". Wootz was an entirely different thing, and interesting in its own right. Japanese and Viking swords are often called Damascus, but are more correctly called laminated or pattern welded. Before I was led astray into woodturning, I used to make pattern welded knives. An old friend of mine is very active in pattern welding and he yields to popular terminology, also calling it Damascus. Have a look at this website for a fun diversion: https://doorcountyforgeworks.com/styled-11/

 

[robo hippy]

I do love to watch the forging videos on You Tube. In another life line, I would have been a blacksmith, maybe a chef as well. I am not sure if it is possible to forge weld high speed steel or not, but there is one guy that loves to try to forge different metals. The closest thing I can think of that may work for woodturning are the old hand plane blades and/or the Japanese style chisel and plane blades. They would use the cheaper/easier to make metal for the main part of the blade, and the cutting edge, which was harder and made from the "expensive" metal was forge welded onto the cheaper metal. I have no idea how well that would work, but it might be easy to try to make a skew that way and see how it forms.

robo hippy

 

[R Henrickson]

I do love to watch the forging videos on You Tube. In another life line, I would have been a blacksmith, maybe a chef as well. I am not sure if it is possible to forge weld high speed steel or not, but there is one guy that loves to try to forge different metals. The closest thing I can think of that may work for woodturning are the old hand plane blades and/or the Japanese style chisel and plane blades. They would use the cheaper/easier to make metal for the main part of the blade, and the cutting edge, which was harder and made from the "expensive" metal was forge welded onto the cheaper metal. I have no idea how well that would work, but it might be easy to try to make a skew that way and see how it forms.

robo hippy

Older drawknives have a inset strip of metal forged in for their cutting edge. It is recognizable on most of the older drawknives I use in making Windsor chairs. The best ones cut beautifully

 

[hughie]

Hughie, you are right. What we call "Damascus" today, is more correctly called "pattern welded". Wootz was an entirely different thing, and interesting in its own right. Japanese and Viking swords are often called Damascus, but are more correctly called laminated or pattern welded. Before I was led astray into woodturning, I used to make pattern welded knives. An old friend of mine is very active in pattern welding and he yields to popular terminology, also calling it Damascus. Have a look at this website for a fun diversion: https://doorcountyforgeworks.com/styled-11/

Likewise with knifemaking, still make a few today and run a small gas gorge

 

[Michael Brown]

Damascus steels are all basically combinations of two different high-carbon steels. Sometimes a steel with high nickel content is used for contrast, but high-carbon is still the result. Carbon migrates freely in steel, and forge welding high carbon steel to low carbon steel makes the carbon content in the Damascus steel basically an average of the two starting percentages.

High speed steel is VERY difficult to forge. Just using basic blacksmith tools, you end up with a condition known as "hot-short". The HS will just kind of crumble when you get it hot and hit it. It has to be done in a very controlled environment. Laminating some Damascus to M42 via forge welding sounds like a great idea aesthetically, but it may be difficult to execute in practice. If you can find somebody to get it done, please post the results.

Damascus steels are all basically combinations of two different high-carbon steels. Sometimes a steel with high nickel content is used for contrast, but high-carbon is still the result. Carbon migrates freely in steel, and forge welding high carbon steel to low carbon steel makes the carbon content in the Damascus steel basically an average of the two starting percentages.

High speed steel is VERY difficult to forge. Just using basic blacksmith tools, you end up with a condition known as "hot-short". The HS will just kind of crumble when you get it hot and hit it. It has to be done in a very controlled environment. Laminating some Damascus to M42 via forge welding sounds like a great idea aesthetically, but it may be difficult to execute in practice. If you can find somebody to get it done, please post the results.

I take it from this, the blacksmith will have to be extremely gifted or an idiot to accept the commission...
There's a smith in my local I was going to reach out to, but I really want to do this now. Do you guys think v10 would be easier to laminate between some patterns... I was under the impression that it was indeed possible.
The original impetus to this project was that I wanted a flared and tapered to an octagonal tang design, and I can't find any...

 

[Ric Williams]

There's a British blacksmith/metal worker/machinist named Alec Steele (don't know if that's his real name) who recently did a multipart series about making Damascus titanium.
He put a bunch of money and work into figuring out how to do it, using existing patent info, etc., and a lot of experimentation but managed to do it. Not much yield, but successful.

I'd include a link, but I don't know what the rules are about posting links to things like YouTube here. A basic search should get you there.

 

[Michael Brown]

I found him! He's in Montana now and not taking custom orders. ☹️
I think I will give a try with the local blacksmith and venture as far south as the AZ guild in Tucson. Thanks for the lead.

 

[robo hippy]

I found this last night. It was interesting. So, M2 and M42 can be forge welded, kind of....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu-rJcEjSow&t=91s


robo hippy

 

[Gary Beasley]

I found him! He's in Montana now and not taking custom orders. ☹️
I think I will give a try with the local blacksmith and venture as far south as the AZ guild in Tucson. Thanks for the lead.

Actually he’s back in the UK and his buddy Will Stelter has taken over the Montana shop. They are both pretty entertaining watching thier shenanigans.

 

[Neil S]

As said by others, what is now referred to as damascus/mukume gane/pattern welding is mere decoration and adds nothing to the performance of the cutting edge steel. I have some hand forged Japanese kitchen knives that have mokume cladding and all that does is add an interesting pattern to the outer cladding layer. What is historically called Damascus steel has little relationship to these decorative techniques.

However, the San Mai construction of kitchen knives (hard cutting steel core welded to softer outer cladding) does have advantages. But, the flexibility favoured for swords is the last thing I would want in a turning tool.

Nearest to San Mai in a woodturning tool is/will be Stuart Batty's 15V steel laminated to stainless steel.

1/2" 15V Elliptical Bowl™ Gouge

There have never been woodturning blades like our New Revolution Gouge™ Series. (PATENT PENDING) With an Ultra-Advanced Design made with unique new manufacturing and lamination processes, we offer a game-changing level of new gouges. Shipping of First Gouge Sizes Starts in October: Option to...

stuartbattytools.com

Anyone used one yet?
.

 

[hughie]

As said by others, what is now referred to as damascus/mukume gane/pattern welding is mere decoration and adds nothing to the performance of the cutting edge steel. I have some hand forged Japanese kitchen knives that have mokume cladding and all that does is add an interesting pattern to the outer cladding layer. What is historically called Damascus steel has little relationship to these decorative techniques.

However, the San Mai construction of kitchen knives (hard cutting steel core welded to softer outer cladding) does have advantages. But, the flexibility favoured for swords is the last thing I would want in a turning tool.

Nearest to San Mai in a woodturning tool is/will be Stuart Batty's 15V steel laminated to stainless steel.

1/2" 15V Elliptical Bowl™ Gouge

There have never been woodturning blades like our New Revolution Gouge™ Series. (PATENT PENDING) With an Ultra-Advanced Design made with unique new manufacturing and lamination processes, we offer a game-changing level of new gouges. Shipping of First Gouge Sizes Starts in October: Option to...

stuartbattytools.com

Anyone used one yet?
.

It looks like he has gone for the tip tool set up. One of the major benefits here is that would allow the tip to be maximum hardness on a softer mainshaft. Something you cant do with conventional tool making due to brittleness. I see this as a trend as there are several toolmakers going this way and 15v has to superior to the more common 10v. Plus given that the gouge is laminated it should make something akin to the Japanese art of making swords. An interesting concept, StuartB is no fool with many years behind him so I hope its an innovative as claimed. Reading through the blurb I would say hes onto a winner, if only in design..

1/2" 15V Elliptical Bowl™ Gouge

There have never been woodturning blades like our New Revolution Gouge™ Series. (PATENT PENDING) With an Ultra-Advanced Design made with unique new manufacturing and lamination processes, we offer a game-changing level of new gouges. Shipping of First Gouge Sizes Starts in October: Option to...

stuartbattytools.com

 

[Adrian Wilson]

Just on the softer steel laminate to harder edge steel thing this is a Warnock slick (Canadian maker, probably dates 1870-1900-ish) I have been rehabbing. Shows the lamination clearly. This is in process. In case anyone hasn't come across a laminated iron before.