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confused about wooden face plates and such

T

TurningDog

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I am begining to wonder if I am the only low tech problem solver out here. I just got back from woodcraft and pretty much either mystified every turner in the store including the staff or had them looking at me as if I am a heretic. Am I the only turner that owns a set of taps for their lathe spindle and knows how to use them???? I actually had a local turner of some notariety tell me it can't be done, though I am sure the dozen or so well used wooden plates I have laying around the shop beg to differ. They looked with even more contempt when I suggested you could befoul your oneway center by making a soft plate for it. I am just glad I didn't mention that you don't need a pin chuck and that you could just tap and thread a small blank right on to the spindle
 
Hey Dog,
Probably nothing wrong with your procedure if you are turning relatively small pieces that are fairly well balanced to start. And if the tap size is small and/or it was free.
 
I am just a newbie turner, but I don't think I have ever even seen a set of taps that big, even in a machine shop or a supply store. 1" or 1 1/4x 8 right?

Neat idea though. Obviously you are happy with how well it works? Do you do this for production work or hobbiest type stuff like me?

Dave
 
Dave,
Check the price of a 1-1/4"-8 tap. You can buy several metal faceplates for that much $$. That was my point in saying "if the tap was free". Just a matter of economics.
 
I've never used a wooden face plate -- I can buy several metal ones for the price of the tap for my machine and the metal ones last a lot longer. But I have seen an article or two on how to make them.

Another inexpensive option is to make a face plate from a nut and a large washer or a piece of steel. I've seen several descriptions of this on various web sites as well. This isn't as strong as a regular face plate, but it works fine for smaller work.
 
You go Dog,

What ever works, but be careful.

I saw this huge coring machine in Fairbanks, AK in the Great Alaskan Bowl Company's store where they do just that. They don't even tap the blanks, they just drill them and thread them right on the spindle of that machine.

Big old 18" diameter birch blanks just split down the middle, drilled and then screwed right on their spindle. And then they just hog those coring bits right into the blank...

And yes they had safety glass in the viewing window. In fact that morning they'd thrown a blank at the window and it had spider web cracks all through it. 😱

Kids don't try this at home. 🙄
 
There is a huge difference in holding capability between using something like a woodworm screw in a drilled hole and actually tapping the wood.

Using a sharp thread screw that cuts into the wood give a very high friction fit and doesn't result in highly concentrated stresses in the wood caused by load torque. This results in a secure way of holding wood.

The biggest problem with tapping a hole in the wood to match the thread size on the spindle is that this results in a situation that does not have an interference fit so friction is fairly low and the thread sidewalls carry essentially all of the load. Depending on the particular tap rating, there are different clearance tolerances between the internal and external threads. Since wood is a soft and weak material compared to the steel threads on the spindle, the wood will deform to comply with the steel threads as they are tightened. This preload condition reduces available shear strength of the threads to carry any remaining torque load. Unlike the interference fit screw, the wooden threads are very susceptible to failure in shear.

The difference in the Great Alaskan Bowl Company's method and threading the wood is that the method used by the Great Alaskan Bowl Company does provide a considerably higher friction hold.

Bill
 
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w`ooden face plates

Yes to what Brian said. The nut I use is thick enough to place re-enforcement with the larger plywood face-plate and epoxy the whole thing for fit and strength.undefined
 
David Somers said:
I am just a newbie turner, but I don't think I have ever even seen a set of taps that big, even in a machine shop or a supply store. 1" or 1 1/4x 8 right?

Neat idea though. Obviously you are happy with how well it works? Do you do this for production work or hobbiest type stuff like me?

Dave
Click to expand...

I don't do quite enough volume to call what I do production work unless you count twice a times a year doing a couple hundred boxes consecutively for local craft fairs.

Actually you don't need a full set of taps nor do you need to pay a lot of money for them if you know where to look. For people in the dayton Mendelsons is the place to go I can buy large taps and a lot of other things like big drill bits and VFD controllers and motors for next to nothing. I bought my first 1x8 tap from them shortly after I bought my lathe for $4.00 though price has now gone to $5. These are high quality pieces many of them vintage as well. For those without such a candy store close to them, the place to go is ebay. I have seem m33, 1.5", 1.15" and 1" taps brand new for less than $10. And for the record anyone who wants a 3/4x10 for their oneway center I have some extra I will put up for sale if anyone is interested.
 
Brian Hahn said:
I've never used a wooden face plate -- I can buy several metal ones for the price of the tap for my machine and the metal ones last a lot longer. But I have seen an article or two on how to make them.
Click to expand...


Actually you just have to know where to buy your taps... check the price on ebay. The problem with metal face plates is they aren't real customizable. It is also real hard to find that matal jam that can easily be fit to easily finish box bottoms by the dozen. I don't recomend this for every thing but the fact that so many people have either never heard of such a thing or desire to form lynchmobs for those of us who speak of such things really bothers me.
 
boehme said:
There is a huge difference in holding capability between using something like a woodworm screw in a drilled hole and actually tapping the wood.
...
The difference in the Great Alaskan Bowl Company's method and threading the wood is that the method used by the Great Alaskan Bowl Company does provide a considerably higher friction hold.

Bill
Click to expand...

You are quite right there is a risk of failure of course there is a risk of failure of anything we turn and that is why I also reccomend using the tailstock as much as possible and not turning anything very big or really fast. I mention this because most turners it seems are unaware that it is possible and for that matter in the right circumstances like turning the bottom of shallow blocks of wood very useful. You would never catch me slinging an 18 blank on my spindle no matter how slow it was going. But I do the exact same thing The GABC does when I need to make 100 6" bowls in short order.
 
There's turners of wood and there's woodturners. Difference is that the first know how to do, and the second know what they're doing. The first group is the one which will brand you heretic, the second is the one who will say "there's another way," and then suggest some. As you've seen, people use wood on faceplates the same as you use wooden faceplates. I make my specialty stuff to be gripped in my chuck or screwed to my tail center. Same thing, different ways. Imagine once you get them trued, your plates are as good as any for light work, though I'm not sure if it's false economy, given the ease of mounting securely otherwise.
 
Got my catalog from J R Beall yesterday and he has taps to make faceplates out of wood for most common lathe sizes for under $40. 1 x 8, 1.25 x 8 M33 x 3.5 and others
 
I use a metal nut inset into wood with epoxy quite often. You have to use common sense and realize the limits of the system. There are times I want nothing less that a good steel faceplate with every screw hole filled!!

Wilford
 
Wilford Bickel said:
I use a metal nut inset into wood with epoxy quite often. You have to use common sense and realize the limits of the system. There are times I want nothing less that a good steel faceplate with every screw hole filled!!

Wilford
Click to expand...


quite true everything has its limits.
 
Jeff Jilg said:
I would call that quite a volume of turning? Do you have a group photo of a bunch of boxes? That would be cool to see.
Click to expand...


I keep telling myself one day I am going to buy a digital camera to photograph my work but every time I have money it seems like I buy a turning tool... The boxes are not nearly as impressive as the picture of the shavings I am standing in after box or bowl 100 and 4 or 5 days of not having swept out the shop.
 
I too make my own face plates.

I start by gluing two layers of MDF. Once dry I use a forstner bit to drill a hole about 2/3 the way into the first layer. Then I expoy a 1"-8tpi bolt into the cavity. Once dry, I mount it on the lathe, round the outside edge and true up the face.
 
taps and faceplates

I have used a tap to make face plates from hard maple. I then put CA into the threads and after setting rethread. This makes a stronger thread.

The nice part is you can use them as faceplates or glue blocks for dedicated tools (vacuum chucks) and don't want to tie up an expensive metal faceplate. They are also handy when you have several production type projects going at one time (like segmented fruit bowls for all your wives sisters and sister in laws at XMAS). Like all tools they have places where they are great and some where I wouldn't use one on a bet. But $38 for the tap is cheaper than one metal face plate and you have the option of getting an infinite number from the tap.

Vernon
 
wa5fdf said:
They are also handy when you have several production type projects going at one time

Vernon
Click to expand...

They are also handy when you are running multiple lathes for different project steps. I like turning the box on one lathe and then pop it out of the chuck jam it onto a tapped jam chuck on the other to finish off the bottom.
 
TurningDog said:
. . . or desire to form lynchmobs for those of us who speak of such things really bothers me.
Click to expand...

And it really bothers me that you continue to use a quote of mine from a previous thread in you tagline as one of the most pretenious sayings in woodturning. Other than the fact that we spend our money differently, what's your point?
 
Needing answers

TurningDog said:
.........."Buy your last lathe first" & "You can always turn small things on a big lathe, but not big things on a small lathe"
Click to expand...
In striving to not be pretentious, I need to find the answers to some of the more important philosophical questions of woodturning:

  • [Buy your last lathe first] It seems to me that unless you buy a second lathe before you die, that you have indeed bought your last lathe first. A friend of my dad, who is 94 and still an avid woodworker has a very old Rockwell lathe. It is the only one that he has ever owned and likely the last. I own two lathes, the first was a large Delta, the second lathe was a Jet mini. Did I do it in the wrong sequence? Did I commit a major faux pas by buying the Jet? I'm willing to acknowledge that I probably didn't really need the Jet mini, but bought it just because of peer pressure.
  • [You can always turn small things on a big lathe, but not big things on a small lathe] I don't know how it works, but I have duplicated the results of this experiment myself in my own workshop and found it to actually work. I have actually managed to turn pens and other small objects on my large lathe -- not only that, but just as easily as I can on my Jet mini lathe. The results of my experiments indicate that the converse also seems to be true -- big objects can't be turned on my Jet mini. How can this be so? I'm still scratching my head over that one. Did I violate a code of ethics by using my Delta to turn pens and do I need to do "penance"?
Bill
 
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woodwish said:
And it really bothers me that you continue to use a quote of mine from a previous thread in you tagline as one of the most pretenious sayings in woodturning. Other than the fact that we spend our money differently, what's your point?
Click to expand...


if you think this is your quote then you truly are a a pretentious one. People having been quoting both of these long before there was an internet...
 
boehme said:
In striving to not be pretentious, I need to find the answers to some of the more important philosophical questions of woodturning:

  • [Buy your last lathe first] It seems to me that unless you buy a second lathe before you die, that you have indeed bought your last lathe first. A friend of my dad, who is 94 and still an avid woodworker has a very old Rockwell lathe. It is the only one that he has ever owned and likely the last. I own two lathes, the first was a large Delta, the second lathe was a Jet mini. Did I do it in the wrong sequence? Did I commit a major faux pas by buying the Jet? I'm willing to acknowledge that I probably didn't really need the Jet mini, but bought it just because of peer pressure.
  • [You can always turn small things on a big lathe, but not big things on a small lathe] I don't know how it works, but I have duplicated the results of this experiment myself in my own workshop and found it to actually work. I have actually managed to turn pens and other small objects on my large lathe -- not only that, but just as easily as I can on my Jet mini lathe. The results of my experiments indicate that the converse also seems to be true -- big objects can't be turned on my Jet mini. How can this be so? I'm still scratching my head over that one. Did I violate a code of ethics by using my Delta to turn pens and do I need to do "penance"?
Bill
Click to expand...


Since you obviously feel the need to press this issue and haven't bothered to actually look in a dictionary let me explain pretentious to you. Pretentious is trying to impress people saying or doing something often with the obvious or by using stupid overused cliches, like buy your last (insert powertool name here) first. If you had the kind of foresight to actually know what you will want in a tool before you ever owned one then it certainly isn't your foresight into tools of the future I want to know about, but please feel free to quietly slip me the next 50 superbowl, stanley cup and and indy 500 winners. And when it comes to turning small things on a big lathe and not turning big things on a small lathe this is more obvious drivel (have fun pen turning on that VB36) which makes you sound like a damned used car saleman or stock broker attempting to get people to spend beyond what they are comfortable with. I also laugh at the number of people who quote this one regularly but tell people if you buy a jet mini you will never regret it and keep using after you buy another bigger lathe.
 
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Bill - at least I got the point of your post. Since you have turned small stuff on the big lathe you will have to get 50 lashes with a wet noodle. Didn't you see in the manual that you can only turn big stuff on that lathe??? :cool2:
 
TurningDog said:
Actually you just have to know where to buy your taps... check the price on ebay. The problem with metal face plates is they aren't real customizable. It is also real hard to find that matal jam that can easily be fit to easily finish box bottoms by the dozen. I don't recomend this for every thing but the fact that so many people have either never heard of such a thing or desire to form lynchmobs for those of us who speak of such things really bothers me.
Click to expand...

TurningDog, I'm one that has turned a lot of wooden faceplates. I bought a 1"x8tpi tap for my Old Griz. It really works well, and the flattened face glues up quite well to blanks. Some folks just haven't lived, have they? 😀
 
Threading

Steve,
It doesn't really take very long, but it is longer than putting on a faceplate. The advantage is that for $26, you can make as many glue blocks as you want, they can be used in a sacrificial manner without damaging your tools, and you don't seem to mind as much when you use them for a dedicated application, such as a vacuum faceplate. Then it's not like you just tied up the last faceplete you have.🙂
Kurt
 
Geeze Louise! In about an hour this thread has four pages and growing. I'm not into threading wooden face plates, but I've learned to avoid spending big bucks on metal ones by buying welded washers onto nuts of the right size. Bill Noble sells them quite reasonably, but they aren't exact and attached wood will wobble a bit. Doesn't matter once you turn it round though. I've had dozens of folks insist that these things just couldn't work right, but I've made dozens and dozens of pieces with them on three different lathes with no problem at all. Sometimes there CAN be easier ways to do things.
 
I use my Beall wood tap for making all kinds of things for the lathe, I find it both a time saver, and money saver.

For "Faceplates" I do not use it for mounting large bowl blanks etc, I think that is beyond what is was meant to do, for that, I have steel faceplates.

I use if for mounting blocks for various things like my power strop, Donut chuck(s), Vacuum Chucks, jam chucks etc.

threaded_block_17.JPG threaded_block_16.JPG mdf_vacuum_chuck_finished.JPG hole_punch_5.JPG vacuum_chuck_16.JPG

I find this a very useful tool to have, and it makes sure my steel faceplates are always ready to use.

Cheers!
 
I agree, I make MDF vac chucks with a tap frequently, but just couldn't see the faceplate thing. Then again, I don't get why people use hand tools in flatworking. I understand the traditionalism and romance thing, just not for me.
 
Yet Another Alternative

Used for aux. faceplate, jam chuck, or whatever, for use in your scroll chuck. Saw the wood square. This was a 2x6 or 2x8. Make 4 cuts on edge and 4 cuts flat to yield a square tenon 3/8" or 7/16" long (for 1/2" deep chuck jaws). The 8 corners of four jaws will indent the wood slightly, giving a strong mechanical grip. Having cheap chucks, I mark the #1 jaw location (two black marks) so if removed from chuck it can be re-centered fairly accurately. Bandsaw approx. round. Turn round if needed, and turn face flat or shape for required jam chuck.

I have tapped a couple pieces to fit the tailstock live center, 3/4-10 I think.
 

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i have been using 1-8 wooden faceplates since 1996. bought the tap from hardware store for $15. makes it easy to use glue blocks for ornaments. having several glued up ahead for whatever reason.hav used mostly white oak as it threads well and i durable.
 
With a screw gun, it doesn't seem to me that it takes very to long to mount round blocks on a faceplate, if fact, I would think it would be a lot less time than drilling and cutting the threads with a fairly expensive thread cutter. I would be cautious with respect to the wood anyone drilling and cutting threads is using. With the forces involved, I can imagine the block splitting.

Malcolm Smith.
 
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